Support NeoGAF

[Delio]

Hopefully they learned their lesson and have scrubbed it

Going to be a long two weeks waiting to see if they actually learned or not.

 

[ArchedThunder]

Hopefully they learned their lesson and have scrubbed it

Removing all references in a demo can be too time consuming for what it's worth.
It's pretty common for there to be lots of strings in demos and betas that reference unannounced things.

 

[Jintor]

water seal stays losing

 

[BGBW]

After datamining they'll find it's only 10MB for the demo data and the other 390MB is just pictures of Shibata dressed up as all the Pokémon.

 

[MrBadger]

I just see the owl as having a huge neck beard. It looks like a lotr type dwarf or something. I'd be picking the seal if I hadn't already seen the final evo leak.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Yeah, its totally not like girls play Pokemon or anything. That's obviously what they were going for 😑

I mean, sample size of 4, but none of my Pokémon playing sisters like Popplio's design. The eldest (they're half sisters, all significantly younger than me) actually said it was a bit insulting to suppose that girls would necessarily want something with pony tails and big round eyes. She does like 'feminine' designs - Alolan Ninetales has her hyped - but Popplio's line does nothing.

My impression of what they thought is that it is too much of an infantilized portrait of femininity, compared to more 'sophisticated' portraits like Ninetales, Delphox, and Gardevoir. I'm inclined to agree. I don't think the Popplio line was aimed at girls at all, or if it was, then the people doing the design haven't actually met many young girls. I think that it was squarely aimed at the otaku market.

 

[BGBW]

The Otaku market?

So Pokémon fanatics?

 

[Not75Drops]

The Mega Evolution page on the site makes it sound like that Pokemon with Megas aren't getting Alola Forms. I think most of us were assuming that anyway.

 

[Boss Doggie]

wait, when did pokemon themselves become otaku targets lol

also they forgot to add these

 

[Arcia]

I mean, sample size of 4, but none of my Pokémon playing sisters like Popplio's design. The eldest (they're half sisters, all significantly younger than me) actually said it was a bit insulting to suppose that girls would necessarily want something with pony tails and big round eyes. She does like 'feminine' designs - Alolan Ninetales has her hyped - but Popplio's line does nothing.

My impression of what they thought is that it is too much of an infantilized portrait of femininity, compared to more 'sophisticated' portraits like Ninetales, Delphox, and Gardevoir. I'm inclined to agree. I don't think the Popplio line was aimed at girls at all, or if it was, then the people doing the design haven't actually met many young girls. I think that it was squarely aimed at the otaku market.

Lol you are talking to a woman right now, and from personal experience from being a little girl, I would have liked there being a more feminine starter option back then and I do now too. I liked dinosaurs and action figures growing up, but I also liked girly things too. You are kidding yourself if you think young girls don't like cute things in dresses. They should honestly do this more often.

But regardless of that, what irks me about what you said is that the nicest thing you could say about Brionne is that it would appeal to perverts. Are you for real dude? Its a seal in a dress. Its not sexualized at all. Thats super weird that your first thought upon seeing that design was not "oh, that doesn't appeal to me but its nice that they are making a more feminine design to appeal to girls", but it was that skeevs would like it. "Squarely aimed at the otaku market", yeah right. They make these games for children. Adults enjoy them, but they are made with kids in mind first.

 

[Starwolf_UK]

omg that just reminded me, I swear if all we get is the damn battle tower again for postgame I'm gonna

shake my head and give Game Freak a mean look

"...don't worry there will be plenty of battle tower. Nobody will take away your precious battle tower"
"The note was asking you to..."
"No, tell my secretary I said you could have 20BP for free."

wait, when did pokemon themselves become otaku targets lol

also they forgot to add these

These Pokemon designs are getting so unoriginal and bad. I mean Ivysaur again?

 

[JoeM86]

Removing all references in a demo can be too time consuming for what it's worth.
It's pretty common for there to be lots of strings in demos and betas that reference unannounced things.

There's a difference between that and what happened with ORAS

 

[Crocodile]

I mean, sample size of 4, but none of my Pokémon playing sisters like Popplio's design. The eldest (they're half sisters, all significantly younger than me) actually said it was a bit insulting to suppose that girls would necessarily want something with pony tails and big round eyes. She does like 'feminine' designs - Alolan Ninetales has her hyped - but Popplio's line does nothing.

My impression of what they thought is that it is too much of an infantilized portrait of femininity, compared to more 'sophisticated' portraits like Ninetales, Delphox, and Gardevoir. I'm inclined to agree. I don't think the Popplio line was aimed at girls at all, or if it was, then the people doing the design haven't actually met many young girls. I think that it was squarely aimed at the otaku market.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say I find it hard to believe "how might furries or otakus like this design?" plays a big role in Pokemon design at all back at Gamefreak.

I feel you're "trying too hard" for lack of a better expression.

 

[ffdgh]

wait, when did pokemon themselves become otaku targets lol

also they forgot to add these

I see....Bowser, Bulbasaur Megaman, Wall-e, Buu, and Jon Talbain knockoffs. The heck is this lol.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

But regardless of that, what irks me about what you said is that the nicest thing you could say about Brionne is that it would appeal to perverts. Are you for real dude? Its a seal in a dress. Its not sexualized at all. Thats super weird that your first thought upon seeing that design was not "oh, that doesn't appeal to me but its nice that they are making a more feminine design to appeal to girls", but it was that skeevs would like it. "Squarely aimed at the otaku market", yeah right. They make these games for children. Adults enjoy them, but they are made with kids in mind first.

It might be because I have too much NeoGAF exposure and there's always someone with an anime avatar ready to make worrying comments, sure. But the weirdly large eyes, the tiny fang, the schoolgirl ponytails, the mouth on the side of the face because of the lack of perspective - it's exactly the sort of stuff that causes Persona threads to go nuts. And it makes me worry somewhat that they did actually have a particular non-child market in mind when they made that design.

Again, there are many good designs in the Pokémon series that draw on aspects of what society perceives as feminine - Ninetales immediately jumps to mind. It's the fusion of femininity and infantilization I find worrying and borderline sexist - there is no real equivalent, no masculine Pokémon where the childlike aspects are also emphasised.

 

[HawthorneKitty]

I wonder if they ever create Pokemon from the final form to the base.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I wonder if they ever create Pokemon from the final form to the base.

You mean have the final evolution in mind then design the rest afterwards? Definitely Lucario is one.

 

[Jintor]

It might be because I have too much NeoGAF exposure and there's always someone with an anime avatar ready to make worrying comments, sure. But the weirdly large eyes, the tiny fang, the schoolgirl ponytails, the mouth on the side of the face because of the lack of perspective - it's exactly the sort of stuff that causes Persona threads to go nuts. And it makes me worry somewhat that they did actually have a particular non-child market in mind when they made that design.

lmao dude just gonna start taking potshots at all comers huh

 

[Arcia]

It might be because I have too much NeoGAF exposure and there's always someone with an anime avatar ready to make worrying comments, sure. But the weirdly large eyes, the tiny fang, the schoolgirl ponytails, the mouth on the side of the face because of the lack of perspective - it's exactly the sort of stuff that causes Persona threads to go nuts. And it makes me worry somewhat that they did actually have a particular non-child market in mind when they made that design.

Again, there are many good designs in the Pokémon series that draw on aspects of what society perceives as feminine - Ninetales immediately jumps to mind. It's the fusion of femininity and infantilization I find worrying and borderline sexist - there is no real equivalent, no masculine Pokémon where the childlike aspects are also emphasised.

I can guarantee you that this is not what they had in mind with this design. You jumping to these conclusions is on you, not the game designers.

Femininity does not equal instant sexualization. Sparkly eyes and a frills are not infantilizing. The inclusion of feminine designs is not sexist either, its inclusive. You are being weird.

 

[God Dayumm]

I think the kindest thing I can say about Popplio is that I can see it having an appeal for the sort of people who like moe and MLP and say waifu.

MLP yes. But it does not appeal to the otaku market. That is what Magearna and Lurantis are for, eek

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Femininity does not equal instant sexualization. Sparkly eyes and a frills are not infantilizing. The inclusion of feminine designs is not sexist either, its inclusive. You are being weird.

If you think your first or third sentences here are responses to what I've said, I don't think you read what I said very carefully.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

lmao dude just gonna start taking potshots at all comers huh

I like SMT, it's par for the course.

Spoiler

And also true.

 

[BGBW]

But regardless of that, what irks me about what you said is that the nicest thing you could say about Brionne is that it would appeal to perverts. Are you for real dude? Its a seal in a dress. Its not sexualized at all. Thats super weird that your first thought upon seeing that design was not "oh, that doesn't appeal to me but its nice that they are making a more feminine design to appeal to girls", but it was that skeevs would like it. "Squarely aimed at the otaku market", yeah right. They make these games for children. Adults enjoy them, but they are made with kids in mind first.

When did otaku start to mean perverts? It just means fanatic. GAF is home to videogame otaku.

 

[The Shadow Knight]

Going to be a long two weeks waiting to see if they actually learned or not.

And a long month of dodging spoilers if they didn't...

 

[Arcia]

When did otaku start to mean perverts? It just means fanatic. GAF is home to videogame otaku.

They brought up MLP and waifus already, I think its clear in this context they don't mean hobbyists.

 

[Oddish1]

It might be because I have too much NeoGAF exposure and there's always someone with an anime avatar ready to make worrying comments, sure. But the weirdly large eyes, the tiny fang, the schoolgirl ponytails, the mouth on the side of the face because of the lack of perspective - it's exactly the sort of stuff that causes Persona threads to go nuts. And it makes me worry somewhat that they did actually have a particular non-child market in mind when they made that design.

Again, there are many good designs in the Pokémon series that draw on aspects of what society perceives as feminine - Ninetales immediately jumps to mind. It's the fusion of femininity and infantilization I find worrying and borderline sexist - there is no real equivalent, no masculine Pokémon where the childlike aspects are also emphasised.

I don't really understand your points. I don't think Brionne is infantile at all, and I also don't understand the connection between femininity, infantilization, and sexism. There seems to be some massive assumptions there.

I also think it's worth pointing out that even though you consider them good designs, Ninetails, Delphox, and Gardevoir are all popular with the "non-child" market. So you making an assumption that Brionne will be popular with said market to dismiss a design you don't like seems hypocritical.

 

[Jimnymebob]

My only problem with Popplio's evolution is the fact that it's gone from looking so gender neutral/generally cute, to obviously feminine looking is a shock. Normally with Pokemon, the 'girly' looking ones, like Jynx, the fox starters, Chansey, Gardevoir etc. are consistently feminine looking throughout each stage, but this is more of a Sunkern to Sunflora type thing.

Hell, I kind of have a problem with the starters from this gen and the previous gen for sort of assigning genders to the starters. I know previous gens have had sets of masculine starters, but personally I think that's better than going "this is the pretty and feminine seal/fox Pokemon for the girls to use, and the boys can use the others". There was a thread in OT the other day about DC McDonalds toys, and the fact the girls toys don't do anything, and it's this sort of gender separation that annoys me. If they want to give starters genders, why not make all 3 of them feminine, so they avoid the whole one of them is what the female players should pick?

 

[Kinsei]

When did otaku start to mean perverts? It just means fanatic. GAF is home to videogame otaku.

In the west otaku means anime otaku. It's been that way for as long as I can remember.

 

[BGBW]

They brought up MLP and waifus already, I think its clear in this context they don't mean hobbyists.

Ah yes, I missed that. Apologies.

 

[Arcia]

My only problem with Popplio's evolution is the fact that it's gone from looking so gender neutral/generally cute, to obviously feminine looking is a shock. Normally with Pokemon, the 'girly' looking ones, like Jynx, the fox starters, Chansey, Gardevoir etc. are consistently feminine looking throughout each stage, but this is more of a Sunkern to Sunflora type thing.

Hell, I kind of have a problem with the starters from this gen and the previous gen for sort of assigning genders to the starters. I know previous gens have had sets of masculine starters, but personally I think that's better than going "this is the pretty and feminine seal/fox Pokemon for the girls to use, and the boys can use the others". There was a thread in OT the other day about DC McDonalds toys, and the fact the girls toys don't do anything, and it's this sort of gender separation that annoys me. If they want to give starters genders, why not make all 3 of them feminine, so they avoid the whole one of them is what the female players should pick?

Typically I think they don't have the first stage be masculine or feminine because they are child like, but they become more pronounced when they 'grow up'.

Also, they have had a gender neutral Tepig evolve into buff, masculine Emboar, and nobody complained then about them making it too manly. Why can't we have at least one feminine starter line. Its only fair imo.

You are assuming girls don't want or like fem designs, and some don't. But there are a large amount of young girls who play these games who do like that look, so if anything its nice to at least have one option that appeals to that group.

 

[Oddish1]

My only problem with Popplio's evolution is the fact that it's gone from looking so gender neutral/generally cute, to obviously feminine looking is a shock. Normally with Pokemon, the 'girly' looking ones, like Jynx, the fox starters, Chansey, Gardevoir etc. are consistently feminine looking throughout each stage, but this is more of a Sunkern to Sunflora type thing.

Hell, I kind of have a problem with the starters from this gen and the previous gen for sort of assigning genders to the starters. I know previous gens have had sets of masculine starters, but personally I think that's better than going "this is the pretty and feminine seal/fox Pokemon for the girls to use, and the boys can use the others". There was a thread in OT the other day about DC McDonalds toys, and the fact the girls toys don't do anything, and it's this sort of gender separation that annoys me. If they want to give starters genders, why not make all 3 of them feminine, so they avoid the whole one of them is what the female players should pick?

Well this is kind of neutered by the fact that feminine pokemon aren't necessarily female. Actually if previous starters are an indication then there will be a 87.5% chance Popplio will be male for most people, and there's even a decent chance that someone picking Rowlet will get a female one. Like if a girl wanted to go with a female only team they're not obligated to go with Popplio.

Then again they'll probably have to restart the game until they get a female starter by chance and why it's 87.5% male 12.5% female is its own weird thing.

EDIT: The starter gender ratio is different than what I initially said. I fixed it.

 

[Belgian Dude]

My only problem with Popplio's evolution is the fact that it's gone from looking so gender neutral/generally cute, to obviously feminine looking is a shock. Normally with Pokemon, the 'girly' looking ones, like Jynx, the fox starters, Chansey, Gardevoir etc. are consistently feminine looking throughout each stage, but this is more of a Sunkern to Sunflora type thing.

Gardevoir starts out from Ralts

Not really super feminine like the later evolutions - heck, I'd say the "bowl cut" brings the idea of a shy and reserved guy. There's a ORAS sprite for a male trainer that has the same cut, IIRC.

I say it's a non-problem.

E: Actually pretty sure it's supposed to be a mini-Wally lmao

 

[ffdgh]

Isn't the starter gender ratio 87.5% male or am I remembering wrong?

 

[Kinsei]

Isn't starter gender ratio 87.5 male or am I remembering wrong?

IIRC it's 75%. That's not a problem though.

 

[linkandzelda]

IIRC it's 75%. That's not a problem though.

It is 87.5.

 

[Oddish1]

Isn't starter gender ratio 87.5 male or am I remembering wrong?

Yeah, you're right. Double checking it is 87.5% male. It's weird that GameFreak does it like that and doesn't just make starters 50-50.

 

[Arcia]

Yeah, you're right. Double checking it is 87.5% male. It's weird that GameFreak does it like that and doesn't just make starters 50-50.

I would guess they do that so they are harder to breed and therefore rarer. Its usually hard to get ditto in a vanilla playthrough, so less people will be able to breed more starters since most people will get male ones. At least thats what I always assumed.

 

[Aaronrules380]

Yeah, you're right. Double checking it is 87.5% male. It's weird that GameFreak does it like that and doesn't just make starters 50-50.

I feel pretty confident in saying it's probably to make breeding starters harder. Which might matter if dittos weren't a thing

 

[Oddish1]

I would guess they do that so they are harder to breed and therefore rarer. Its usually hard to get ditto in a vanilla playthrough, so less people will be able to breed more starters since most people will get male ones. At least thats what I always assumed.

I thought about that but then why not make it 100% male?

 

[Finale Fireworker]

I would guess they do that so they are harder to breed and therefore rarer. Its usually hard to get ditto in a vanilla playthrough, so less people will be able to breed more starters since most people will get male ones. At least thats what I always assumed.

This is really the only line of reasoning that makes sense to me. I think that's pretty dumb, though. If some kid wants to play through with six Blaziken, why impede them?

 

[MrBadger]

Found this on Reddit -

 

[Boss Doggie]

Wow, didn't know Aviary Attorney got a massive graphical update.

 

[Mik317]

Man some of y'all blame everything y'all hate on those damn otaku.

Yeah Brionne is pretty girly. So? Who says every starter has to be super manly. (Which is doubly funny with Luchacat is also here , hell the siren design could even pass for a effeminate man design more than Lucha could pass for a female)

 

[Stereogatari]

Poké Pelago is an absolutely great idea. I've been hoping they would find an interactive use for Pokémon in boxes for a while now. Happy to see they are finally doing something with them.

Sounds like Mother Base from MGSV.

 

[Infinite]

Brionne is actually the best of the middle evos. Don't know what you clowns are talking about

 

[SliceSabre]

Crab's argument almost seems to be that feminine looking pokemon, like Brionne, are made that way so that otaku can jerk off to them? Is that right?

 

[Finale Fireworker]

Man some of y'all blame everything y'all hate on those damn otaku.

Yeah Brionne is pretty girly. So? Who says every starter has to be super manly. (Which is doubly funny with Luchacat is also here , hell the siren design could even pass for a effeminate man design more than Lucha could pass for a female)

I think you're misunderstanding the complaint. I don't think anybody cares that Brionne is a feminized design. I think people just don't like it and some, like Crab, find the pop idol influence irritating.

As somebody who also dislikes J-Pop idols, culture, and aesthetics, I can appreciate this sentiment. But I think the notion that this is "otaku pandering" is a bizarre and out of the question assertion. It's a Pokémon based on performing that borrows design from a common Japanese motif. The accusation that Brionne is anything but that pretty baseless. There is nothing about Brionne designed to incite erections or erotic fervor. To claim so is, like I said before, just bizarre.

Also, the idea that a feminized Pokémon is designed to appeal to girls is also pretty weak. The design is about the Pokémon and its personality, not that of the player.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I think you're misunderstanding the complaint. I don't think anybody cares that Brionne is a feminized design. I think people just don't like it and some, like Crab, find the pop idol influence irritating.

More than irritating - I think it panders to all the wrong people. But yes, it's not the femininity. There are plenty of excellent feminine designs in the series, which I'm very glad we have. It's the 'pop idol' iconography specifically.

I also agree with jimmynthebob from earlier.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Lisia in oras was otaku shit

Brionne is just freaking seal

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Like Braixen, the middle line is a lot more girly than the final stage. The final stage isn't at all what I would consider Otaku pandering (I wouldn't consider the middle form to be either, though)