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PoliGAF Official May 6th Primary Thread (All I need is a Hirracle, all I need is you)

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V

vdo

Member
The pics that the media are starting to show where she looks dejected are not going to help her "keep smiling, nodding, and reassuring everybody that everythings OK" strategy.
fymlb9.jpg
 
G

grandjedi6

Master of the Google Search
Cheebs said:
How? They are DLC Democrats. DLC is NOT liberal.
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What? The DLC is a centerist organization that leans liberal neverless. The real thing that separates the DLC from the rest of the party is the DLC's stance against popularism.

And how are Carville and Begala not liberals in their ideology? They both have called themselves liberals, and they both appear as leftist commentors on shows. Hell, it makes even less sense to equate Carville completely with the DLC since Carville is a popularist
 
T

Triumph

Banned
Loudninja said:
But in what way?
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It's interesting, Terry McAulliffe was on the morning shows today and he basically said that he would be fine with penalizing MI & FL half their delegation's votes, which assuming Obama got even most of the "uncommitted" from MI wouldn't be a game changer. Of course, McAulliffe is in sort of a unique position on that issue- as a former DNC chairman, he threatened MI over the same thing for the 2004 primaries and said he'd strip half their votes if they moved it up.
 
A

AndersTheSwede

Member
Interesting article on Politico on Jeffrey Berman, Obama's Director of Delegate Selection:

The Obama campaign's 'unsung hero'

Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton had just declared victory in the Nevada caucuses when most campaign reporters heard Jeffrey Berman’s voice for the first and only time.

Berman, Sen. Barack Obama’s director of delegate selection, chimed in during a conference call with the media to make an unexpected case: Despite Clinton’s popular vote victory in Nevada and an authoritative Associated Press count giving Clinton the edge in the Nevada delegate count, Obama had actually won the state by the only measure that mattered.

“Obama had a majority in the district that had an odd number of delegates, so he won an extra seat,” Berman told the puzzled press; the Associated Press delegate expert, on the call, promised to revise his count.

Obama’s Nevada delegate victory was widely viewed at the time as a curiosity, an asterisk to Clinton’s win. But in February, as Obama amassed delegates despite losing big states, the shape of the race became clear: The name of the game was delegates.
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http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0508/10249.html
 
C

Cheebs

Member
Triumph said:
Liberal = not for shit like NAFTA, telecom mergers and other shit that Bill let slide. Check out the DLC's website.
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Exactly.

The DLC and Clintonista's think unity is trying to make the democratic party more right leaning, particularly this upset me after 9/11 when the DLC was gung-ho for Iraq.

Actually, THANK GOD for Iraq. That war and the DNC's absurd semi-backing of it in 2002 has lead to the DLC's near certain death now.

Also Triumph I don't know if you knew this but before he was ever a senate candidate the DLC issued a pamphlet which included a list of "up and coming DLC democrats". On that list was Barack Obama. Obama got pissed off and demanded his name removed from it, he hated the DLC. :lol
 
S

scorcho

testicles on a cold fall morning
Triumph said:
Liberal = not for shit like NAFTA, telecom mergers and other shit that Bill let slide. Check out the DLC's website.
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so wait, now Bill Clinton wasn't liberal?

that also wasn't a definition, unless liberal is some slippery term that now describes anyone not associated with Clinton (and who also isn't in Obama's team)
 
S

scorcho

testicles on a cold fall morning
why don't people give a definition of what liberal even means and draw philosophical distinctions. otherwise the term is just a catch-all platitude that defines nothing.
 
G

grandjedi6

Master of the Google Search
Cheebs said:
Exactly.

The DLC and Clintonista's think unity is trying to make the democratic party more right leaning, particularly this upset me after 9/11 when the DLC was gung-ho for Iraq.

Actually, THANK GOD for Iraq. That war and the DNC's absurd semi-backing of it in 2002 has lead to the DLC's near certain death now.

Also Triumph I don't know if you knew this but before he was ever a senate candidate the DLC issued a pamphlet which included a list of "up and coming DLC democrats". On that list was Barack Obama. Obama got pissed off and demanded his name removed from it, he hated the DLC. :lol
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Not only is that a horribly flawed definition of liberal, but it does not prove your point that "Carville and Begala are democrats, not liberals"
 
T

Triumph

Banned
grandjedi6 said:
Not only is that a horribly flawed definition of liberal, but it does not prove your point that "Carville and Begala are democrats, not liberals"
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I will concede your point about Carville, but Begala is completely a Clinton creature, which means he's part of the DLC moderate, pro-business wing of the party. Certainly not liberals.

Liberals = pro-union, pro-business regulation, pro high taxes on the wealthiest. The DLC doesn't exactly advocate for all of that. :p
 
D

Deus Ex Machina

Member
Buyer's Remorse: Californians Would Switch Clinton Vote For Obama

http://cbs5.com/politics/poll.clinton.obama.2.720136.html
SAN FRANCISCO (CBS 5) ― California voters would change their February primary vote for Hillary Clinton to a vote for Barack Obama if the vote were held again, according to an exclusive poll commissioned by CBS 5.

While voters in the California Democratic Presidential Primary backed Clinton by a 10-point margin, a new SurveyUSA poll shows that if given the chance to vote again, Californians would choose Barack Obama by a 6-point margin, 49%-43%.

The poll was conducted on May 7 and 8 and has a margin of error of 4%.
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The Early Primary And The Size Of The State gave Clinton a distinct advantage.
 
G

grandjedi6

Master of the Google Search
Triumph said:
I will concede your point about Carville, but Begala is completely a Clinton creature, which means he's part of the DLC moderate, pro-business wing of the party. Certainly not liberals.

Liberals = pro-union, pro-business regulation, pro high taxes on the wealthiest. The DLC doesn't exactly advocate for all of that. :p
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You're mixing up popularism and liberalism.
 
J

jak stat

Member
Classical liberalism is a doctrine stressing individual freedom and limited government. This includes the importance of human rationality, individual property rights, natural rights, the protection of civil liberties, constitutional limitations of government, free markets, and individual freedom from restraint.
 
S

scorcho

testicles on a cold fall morning
i like black-and-white political classifications that ignores complexity. i'm all in favor of ready-made labels that describe jack-nothing. you're pro abortion - you're a liberal! you believe taxes should be lowered - you're a conservative! you agree to both? fuck you then!
 
R

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
v1cious said:
damn that's an awesome impression.:lol
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She even got the voice. The thing that's brilliant about Darroll Hammond on SNL is that he can mock the voice of whoever he is impersonating brilliantly, too. Whoever is doing Hillary on SNL loses me because she doesn't have the voice down.
 
A

Amir0x

Banned
I hope the check BOUNCES

The boy says he not only sold his bicycle, but video games and anything else he could find to donate to the former first lady's bid for the Democratic presidential nomination.
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:headshake:
 
K

Kaeru

Banned
jak stat said:
Classical liberalism is a doctrine stressing individual freedom and limited government. This includes the importance of human rationality, individual property rights, natural rights, the protection of civil liberties, constitutional limitations of government, free markets, and individual freedom from restraint.
Click to expand...

The funny thing is that the american meaning of liberal is just plain wrong.

According to the classic definition of liberalism, USA is one of the most liberal countries in the world. Why is that so hard to get?
 
G

grandjedi6

Master of the Google Search
Triumph said:
Well why don't you go ahead and define "liberal" for me?
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Which kind? Liberal is a catch all phrase that can describe hundreds of variations. But the matter stays that your definition of liberalism is flawed as it tries to categorize all liberalism ideals under only progressive liberalism. Plus both you and Cheebs are trying to shoehorn people to varies ideologies only based on a select few viewpoints. It is entirely possible to promote progressive points such as gay marriage but then support a centerist ideal such as NAFTA
 
R

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
grandjedi6 said:
Which kind? Liberal is a catch all phrase that can describe hundreds of variations. But the matter stays that your definition of liberalism is flawed as it tries to categorize all liberalism ideals under only progressive liberalism. Plus both you and Cheebs are trying to shoehorn people to varies ideologies only based on a select few viewpoints. It is entirely possible to promote progressive points such as gay marriage but then support a centerist ideal such as NAFTA
Click to expand...

I'd consider NAFTA a very conservative and even libertarian ideal. McCain supports free trade agreements such as NAFTA. That should tell you something.
 
S

scorcho

testicles on a cold fall morning
i'm also stumped by how anyone defines 'liberal' specifically in terms of the policies are advocated in absence of any philosophical or ideological grounding. that's putting the cart before the donkey.
 
T

Triumph

Banned
grandjedi6 said:
Which kind? Liberal is a catch all phrase that can describe hundreds of variations. But the matter stays that your definition of liberalism is flawed as it tries to categorize all liberalism ideals under only progressive liberalism. Plus both you and Cheebs are trying to shoehorn people to varies ideologies only based on a select few viewpoints. It is entirely possible to promote progressive points such as gay marriage but then support a centerist ideal such as NAFTA
Click to expand...
That's great and all, I understand there are may different ways to figure out where a person lies on the political compass. But if it's all the same to you, anyone involved in the DLC is not a liberal in my book, and can pretty much be classified as a DINO.
 
M

maximum360

Member
Zeed said:
First thing that pops into my mind: WHY?

Second thing that pops into my mind: I want to see a video of his reaction when Hillary drops out.
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Wow. Someone should have told that kid what was up. He's gonna be pissed real soon.
 
C

Cheebs

Member
A new gen. poll for NC:

North Carolina, it is
McCain 47%, Obama 44%


A deep south state that went to Bush by huge numbers and Obama is behind within the margin of error while the dem party is still divided? I like those numbers, a lot.
 
D

Diablos

Member
Tyrone Slothrop said:
there's liberal republicans who're only economically conservative, and democrats with right leanings, ect. being in a party doesn't ground you on one side per se

btw i thought this one interesting. guy at the kos speculates hillary will drop out by may 20th. but will leave the race with something ... whether that's a place on the ticket or whatever http://dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/5/11/154750/299/815/513805
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This is why I wish we had more parties and adopted a different form of government. Parliament would be good, I think. There's Democrats and Republicans, but consider the differences between the DLC and DNC, for example. You could easily have a centrist democratic party and a liberal democratic party. Same goes for the Republicans... you could easily have the far-right in their own party and then a moderate conservative party. This type of thing would probably benefit the dying breed of moderate conservatives who have basically been overthrown by a bunch of far-right whackos, or, have been replaced by moderate Democrats in 2006. But it would also keep EVERYONE from becoming too power hungry. I just see US Congress as one big pendulum that swings back and forth between increasingly polarized sides, which has the potential to offset a lot of progress.

I think our system is set up is to be automatically polarizing; it's hard for it NOT to be during important times... you either are a part of the Democratic or Republican party. Sure, you can be independent, but you don't have a whole lot of influence or usually need to pick a side. If we had more parties then you would have never seen the Republicans get so power hungry since they dominated congress starting in 1994 all the way to the end of 2006, to give one example.
 
S

scorcho

testicles on a cold fall morning
Triumph said:
That's great and all, I understand there are may different ways to figure out where a person lies on the political compass. But if it's all the same to you, anyone involved in the DLC is not a liberal in my book, and can pretty much be classified as a DINO.
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yeah. Clinton's health care proposal is really indicative of a DINO.
 
T

Tamanon

Banned
The Clintons really need to return that kid's donation.

I don't want Mark Penn being paid by an 11-year old who is swept up in the moment during Naruto filler.
 
T

Triumph

Banned
scorcho said:
yeah. Clinton's health care proposal is really indicative of a DINO.
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I would argue that both of their hc proposals suck. Gimme real single payer universal health care, plz. None of this watered down bullshit.
 
ToyMachine228

ToyMachine228

Member
Triumph said:
I would argue that both of their hc proposals suck. Gimme real single payer universal health care, plz. None of this watered down bullshit.
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The reason it's watered down is because "universal health care" will fail every time it's attempted in the US. And Hillary's current plan would likely fail as well.
 
T

Triumph

Banned
ToyMachine228 said:
The reason it's watered down is because "universal health care" will fail every time it's attempted in the US. And Hillary's current plan would likely fail as well.
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Not if we went back to the old tax brackets, it wouldn't. :p
 
C

Cheebs

Member
scorcho said:
yeah. Clinton's health care proposal is really indicative of a DINO.
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wanting to obliterate Iran, refusing to talk to enemies, and jumping at the chance to invade Iraq really seems liberal to me.
 
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