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[Zeliard]

The eight attribute categories from the previous Elder Scrolls game, Oblivion, have been cut out. Now you only have to worry about your Magicka to cast spells, Health for your hit points, and Stamina, which serves as a limiting factor when pulling off axe slashes and mace bashes in combat.

The problem has been diagnosed, and what we have here is a clear case of that dreaded terror: The Streamlining.

I wish we'd get more detail on the mechanics of the dragon fights, particularly how it presumably won't look stupid to be fighting something as mobile as a dragon when your character is stuck to land (and also much smaller in size).

I keep envisioning the dragons conveniently swooping down at various points and getting into melee range.

 

[perfectnight]

Haha at that "streamlined" comment. As if Oblivion wasn't already streamlined enough. Gotta get that those casuals! That's where all the money is at! Fuck depth and and player satisfaction!

I am so glad devs like From Software still exist. So, so glad.

 

[Boss Doggie]

I wonder what made Bethesda think that the models in Oblivion were great to begin with

 

[Tobor]

Well, I can understand class selection as classes before were only a preset selection of skills and didn't offer anything substantial beyond that. Attributes being gone bothers me more because stats have mattered in the past for calculating skill levels.

Right, but that's a form of class selection right? If all the skills start at a baseline of 0, and you don't need to worry about a race's attributes effecting your playstyle, then you have a true blank slate when you start the game.

There could still be race specific perks, possibly. Meaining a perk only a particular race could earn.

 

[WanderingWind]

I mean, what the holy fuck Bethesda. Oblivion sold roughly a bajillion copies, won every award known to man and basically every single complaint about it was that it was too streamlined. Even "casual" fans complained about level scaling and other things. Who the fuck is asking for them to do this to their game? And why the fuck are they listening to them instead of just about everybody else? Is it really worth pissing off fans to try to sell your game to idiots who got confused at 8 attribute skills?

GAH.

Please don't fuck this up Beth. You're worrying the crap out of me. ASSUAGE MY FEARS.

 

[Tobor]

I mean, what the holy fuck Bethesda. Oblivion sold roughly a bajillion copies, won every award known to man and basically every single complaint about it was that it was too streamlined. Even "casual" fans complained about level scaling and other things. Who the fuck is asking for them to do this to their game? And why the fuck are they listening to them instead of just about everybody else? Is it really worth pissing off fans to try to sell your game to idiots who got confused at 8 attribute skills?

GAH.

Please don't fuck this up Beth. You're worrying the crap out of me. ASSUAGE MY FEARS.

How do you know what casual fans complained about, or if they complained at all? They don't post on forums.

They've already said the level scaling is a refinement of the Fallout model, what's the problem?

 

[thelatestmodel]

I mean, what the holy fuck Bethesda. Oblivion sold roughly a bajillion copies, won every award known to man and basically every single complaint about it was that it was too streamlined. Even "casual" fans complained about level scaling and other things. Who the fuck is asking for them to do this to their game? And why the fuck are they listening to them instead of just about everybody else? Is it really worth pissing off fans to try to sell your game to idiots who got confused at 8 attribute skills?

GAH.

Please don't fuck this up Beth. You're worrying the crap out of me. ASSUAGE MY FEARS.

Couldn't agree more. Everyone is going to buy Skyrim whether it has level scaling or not, and the vast majority of people can manage at least a few stats here and there.

Thank god Dark Souls is on the way.

 

[BitchTits]

I'm so ready for this.

 

[Blue Ninja]

IGN has a video interview with Todd Howard up, as well.

 

[subversus]

They finally hired some competent artists. Too bad it doesn't seem that way for animators.

are you stupid or haven't seen the trailer?

 

[entremet]

Full of promises.

I appreciate the art direction but I can't make believe this current home console hardware can run this.

The scrreenshots are from the 360 build....

 

[ajf009]

Is it November yet?

 

[Shin Dynamo X]

We're looking at a potential GOTY if not RPG OTY. I love this franchise, but I will wait for the final definitive version!

 

[Incendiary]

I've never played an Elder Scrolls game but this looks fantastic visually. I'll keep an eye on how the system develops. I'm looking for a good RPG system I can sink my teeth into, if it's too streamlined I may pass.

 

[Blue Ninja]

GamePro has an article up, as well. Nothing really new, though.

 

[Grisby]

Looking good. Those oblivion shots look so ugly.

 

[WanderingWind]

How do you know what casual fans complained about, or if they complained at all? They don't post on forums.

They've already said the level scaling is a refinement of the Fallout model, what's the problem?

No...but I have met people IRL. And briefly worked at Gamestop. And yeah, casual fans exist on the internet, too.

Level scaling is always worse than no level scaling. Is there a sliding scale? I suppose. But no level scaling wins every time. Secondly, the Fallout model was okay, but still not great. Lastly, level cap at 25 means they looked at FO3's DLC that sold you more levels (in an open world game) and thought "yeah. Let's try that."

Doom and gloom aside, I really hope they know what they're doing here. I want to love this game, but honestly, the fact that we just got slapped upside the face with all this streamlining crap, I'm worried that I won't be able to.

 

[Ultrabum]

I'm so excited for this. I always though more dragons would make oblivion / morrowind better. Just makes things seem more epic. I'm glad they're reworking the leveling system too.

 

[CortanaV]

I wonder what made Bethesda think that the models in Oblivion were great to begin with

Ugh. I could list many model mods I tried to stop the eye-bleeding.

The Orc in the OP looks so awesome! Reminds me of Garona.

 

[Ickman3400]

No...but I have met people IRL. And briefly worked at Gamestop. And yeah, casual fans exist on the internet, too.

Level scaling is always worse than no level scaling. Is there a sliding scale? I suppose. But no level scaling wins every time. Secondly, the Fallout model was okay, but still not great. Lastly, level cap at 25 means they looked at FO3's DLC that sold you more levels (in an open world game) and thought "yeah. Let's try that."

Doom and gloom aside, I really hope they know what they're doing here. I want to love this game, but honestly, the fact that we just got slapped upside the face with all this streamlining crap, I'm worried that I won't be able to.

Just wait for the mods that will raise the cap.

Though I'm pretty sure it was 50 as well. I think Joystiq fucked up (no surprise there).

edit: Yeah all the old articles and forum posts say there's a soft cap at 50. You can keep leveling past that but you won't get traits and stuff.

 

[Timber]

Strange that the level cap now is at 25, instead of 50. Maybe Joystiq made an error?

According to Eurogamer

We also learn there is no set level cap, but levelling is faster in Skyrim than in either Oblivion or Fallout 3, so you accumulate more perks. (Don't worry though, you won't max out too quickly.) A new take on the skill system means that every skill effects your levelling, which Howard says will encourage you to use a broader range of them - although the slick interface already does a neat job of that.

Bolded is good. Hitting max level too early bothered me so much in F3/NV.

 

[Kyaw]

RPS preview here: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/04/18/20-best-things-about-skyrim/

Hype rising.

 

[Blue Ninja]

According to Eurogamer


Bolded is good. Hitting max level too early bothered me so much in F3/NV.

Noted this in the OP, too.

 

[Zeliard]

In The Elder Scrolls, you’ve always put points into stats such as Agility, Intelligence, and Strength to determine your Magicka, Health, and Fatigue. Howard says that they’ve found that the attributes were redundant. “We found that you built Intelligence to improve Magicka,” Howard says. “Why not improve just Magicka?” Some other skills that are easy to game, such as Athletics and Acrobatics, are also gone.

Skills are still in the game, no? Because one of the things attributes also did was govern skills.

 

[Blue Ninja]

Skills are still in the game, no? Because one of the things attributes also did was govern skills.

Yeah, they are. Howard said skills are pretty much the equivalent of EXP in Skyrim.

 

[CortanaV]

RPS preview here: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/04/18/20-best-things-about-skyrim/

Hype rising.

"The menus are pure sex, basically."
Basically.

Well, gentlemen, I'll be off to pre-order my copy.

 

[Timber]

I will never forget the 15 minutes I spent jumping in place on an enclosed rooftop in Morrowind because the ramparts were too high for me to jump over. Had to level that shit to get out.

RIP Acrobatics

 

[NBtoaster]

Skills are still in the game, no? Because one of the things attributes also did was govern skills.

Attributes did not directly increase skills. They affected aspects the skills used like melee damage, total fatigue, magicka, etc, but did not adjust the skills themselves.

 

[JoeBoy101]

Right, but that's a form of class selection right? If all the skills start at a baseline of 0, and you don't need to worry about a race's attributes effecting your playstyle, then you have a true blank slate when you start the game.

There could still be race specific perks, possibly. Meaining a perk only a particular race could earn.

Yeah, but c'mon. We have 10 different races. Its only natural that some should be stronger than others, faster than others, smarter than others, etc. Having a baseline of skill modified by attribute only makes sense as it allows meaningful differentiation between races and even within races. Plus, it gives you a greater degree of control in how skills are effected with what attributes you choose to increase. Having attributes also allows simple tests like, 'can't perform action unless <attribute> is greater than <value>'.

 

[Mr_Brit]

Yeah, but c'mon. We have 10 different races. Its only natural that some should be stronger than others, faster than others, smarter than others, etc. Having a baseline of skill modified by attribute only makes sense as it allows meaningful differentiation between races and even within races. Plus, it gives you a greater degree of control in how skills are effected with what attributes you choose to increase. Having attributes also allows simple tests like, 'can't perform action unless <attribute> is greater than <value>'.

Do we know for certain if the races won't have any differences?

 

[kayos90]

This game will be GLORIOUS! I am ready for November to come. *looks at clock* NO!!!!!

 

[perfectnight]

are you stupid or haven't seen the trailer?

Was poking fun at the dog in the OP screenshot. Animation is the last thing you should be trying to damage control about this game. Be a good shill and tell us how removing all attributes is going to improve the game.

 

[NBtoaster]

Races could give direct skill bonuses and different starter spells. And there will probably be differences in how people treat you, what quests they offer, etc.

 

[Deadly Cyclone]

Rock Paper Shotgun's article has me pumped.

" The engine looks absolutely phenomenal in motion, with the draw distance, streaming and detail able to handle “massive changes in scale from plant to mountain.” There’s none of that awkward visual disparity between near and far away objects which we saw in Oblivion. Meanwhile, tree branches wobble delicately in the wind, mountain peaks have their own micro-climates (such as gorgeous snow and mist), and even your character’s hands are wonderfully animated – a far cry from the forever-clenched fists of so many games. “We like the downtime, the moments like watching the sunset, staring at the water.” Even pulling up the map involves seamlessly zooming up and above the world to look down at a full 3D rendering of it."

"4. The menus are pure sex, basically. The crisp, floating text, tiered menus and full 3D renderings of every inventory item is light years ahead of the fugly boxes and fuzzy, endless lists of Oblivion and Fallout 3. Seriously: these may be the best-looking in-game menus in history."

 

[Jags]

That screenshot of the skill list has me giddy for some reason, even though all its showing is the same old spell schools and skills.

 

[Philthy]

Completely hated Oblivion on the PC, and then got the 360 version at a huge discount like a year or so later. Sat down ON MY COUCH and played it as an action adventure game, rather than an RPG and loved it so much that it still is to this day the only game I've gotten 100% of the achievements on.

It really was a fantastic game if you took the world and atmosphere in and threw any notions of an RPG out the window out. It was hard to do because I absolutely LOVED Morrowind and all the crazy stats and skills you got to play with in that game.

I guess they probably would have been better to have split Oblivion, and now Skyrim off as a separate series and not included the Elder Scrolls name to it. Leave the ES game as the RPG arms of the game that we've been used to since before Daggerfall.

 

[Tobor]

Yeah, but c'mon. We have 10 different races. Its only natural that some should be stronger than others, faster than others, smarter than others, etc. Having a baseline of skill modified by attribute only makes sense as it allows meaningful differentiation between races and even within races. Plus, it gives you a greater degree of control in how skills are effected with what attributes you choose to increase. Having attributes also allows simple tests like, 'can't perform action unless <attribute> is greater than <value>'.

As has been said, there could still be skill bonuses for race and different starting spells. Simple dialog tests could just as easily check skill instead of attribute.

Look at the bright side, you don't have to carry restore potions for every attribute anymore. That always sucked.

 

[perfectnight]

Yeah, but c'mon. We have 10 different races. Its only natural that some should be stronger than others, faster than others, smarter than others, etc. Having a baseline of skill modified by attribute only makes sense as it allows meaningful differentiation between races and even within races. Plus, it gives you a greater degree of control in how skills are effected with what attributes you choose to increase. Having attributes also allows simple tests like, 'can't perform action unless <attribute> is greater than <value>'.

Ah you said everything I was going to. Attributes helped differentiate your character. The fact that they have no limits on your skill levels mean that it will be even easier to be a generic do-everything god character.

 

[JoeBoy101]

Do we know for certain if the races won't have any differences?

There probably differences, in perks or skills, but I'm speaking to the removal of attributes.

That said, the RPS article had this to say on it:

The skill and attribute system has been rethought to make it more streamlined yet offer much more varied character builds. We’re down from 8 attributes and 21 skills to 3 attributes and 18 skills, which will probably cause gasps of horror in some camps, but actually the aim is to make character builds even more diverse while getting rid of redundant levelling. Acrobatics is gone, for instance – “who makes a character that is like ‘I am someone who doesn’t run?” Each skill unlocks a series of perks, which add multiple new abilities – such as a slow-time mode for arrow shooting. Each perk has certain requirements, not purely having unlocked the one below it. “You see a perk you like and say ‘I’m going to start using my sword more because I want that perk”, says Howard. The attributes, meanwhile, are distilled to Health, Magicka and Stamina. “What we found was those [old] attributes actually did something else. For instance, Intelligence just affected Magicka. They all trickled down to some other stat.”

Not sure how I feel about it, but given all the awesome I've seen in the game so far, and in the RPS article, I'll be open-minded on it. I just would like to see COMPLEXITY added for once to some games, instead of just removing and streamlining everything.

Did really like reading this though:

We won’t suffer the horrible voice repetition of Oblivion. “We’ve expanded it a lot. It’s a much bigger jump even from Fallout in terms of VO and the amount of people we have.” Max Von Sydow won’t be the only celebrity voice in the game, either… “I think you’ll all be very impressed, but it’s not just about getting the name on there.”

 

[Tobor]

Ah you said everything I was going to. Attributes helped differentiate your character. The fact that they have no limits on your skill levels mean that it will be even easier to be a generic do-everything god character.

Which is why they added perks.

 

[AlimNassor]

That orc is gorgeous.

 

[Zeliard]

Attributes did not directly increase skills. They affected aspects the skills used like melee damage, total fatigue, magicka, etc, but did not adjust the skills themselves.

Right (except for Luck), but each attribute governed a specific set of skills in that raising that attribute had effects that naturally aided in those skills. If you remove attributes then those types of considerations in character creation and development are gone, though they've apparently added "perks" on top of skills to supplant for that.

7. The world is so much more alive. You’ll see packs of wolves hunting mammoths, you’ll see fearsome beasts such as giants wander by without bothering you because they’re off on other business rather than being mindless killers, you’ll see friendly passers-by running up to you with a sword you dropped earlier and offering to return it – or taking a pop at you with it if they have some reason to despise you.

If I see a Giant just traipsing around the woods it's gonna be hard to resist not taking a stab at him.

 

[GarthVaderUK]

We won’t suffer the horrible voice repetition of Oblivion. “We’ve expanded it a lot. It’s a much bigger jump even from Fallout in terms of VO and the amount of people we have.” Max Von Sydow won’t be the only celebrity voice in the game, either… “I think you’ll all be very impressed, but it’s not just about getting the name on there.”

Yay!

 

[JoeBoy101]

Right (except for Luck), but each attribute governed a specific set of skills in that raising that attribute had effects that naturally aided in those skills. If you remove attributes then those types of considerations in character creation and development are gone, though they've apparently added "perks" on top of skills to supplant for that.

It will all depend on how the perk system works that will be the ultimate verdict on whether they get the differentiation in player build they are looking for.

 

[AlimNassor]

Man Skyrim sounds like it'll be better than Oblivion. It reminds me of Conan. I mean Oblivion wasn't bad, but, i just wasn't as interested in the world as I was in morrowind. Skyrim sounds like a conan or norse mytho inspired game.

 

[Dead Man]

Those screens actually look pretty good to me, the new facial models look great, we'll see how they manage with human closeups though.

The problem has been diagnosed, and what we have here is a clear case of that dreaded terror: The Streamlining.

I wish we'd get more detail on the mechanics of the dragon fights, particularly how it presumably won't look stupid to be fighting something as mobile as a dragon when your character is stuck to land (and also much smaller in size).

I keep envisioning the dragons conveniently swooping down at various points and getting into melee range.

Yeah, the streamlined stats especially sounds worrying.

 

[perfectnight]

Which is why they added perks.

Let's see how that turns out.

 

[bengraven]

!!!!!!!!!!

Was NOT expecting new Skyrim info today. In fact, I was getting antsy.

Looking at the comparison shots between Oblivion and Skyrim, I can't wait to see the first person who says "Ugh, looks just like Oblivion".


Oh and DAT SHRINE

 

[bengraven]

Rock, Paper, Shotgun:

"4. The menus are pure sex, basically. The crisp, floating text, tiered menus and full 3D renderings of every inventory item is light years ahead of the fugly boxes and fuzzy, endless lists of Oblivion and Fallout 3. Seriously: these may be the best-looking in-game menus in history."

"11. We won’t suffer the horrible voice repetition of Oblivion. “We’ve expanded it a lot. It’s a much bigger jump even from Fallout in terms of VO and the amount of people we have.” Max Von Sydow won’t be the only celebrity voice in the game, either… “I think you’ll all be very impressed, but it’s not just about getting the name on there.”

I will have to see it to believe it, but I have hope.

 

[projekt84]

No matter the amount of voices they put it will get repetitive.

However, this game is looking real good. Shut up and take my money, etc.