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[CrayzeeCarl]

wow, I just caught up to the "Avatar looks like a children's pop-up book" comment on the last page.

smh


Also, I see no problem with the name Arc in Germanic Languages.

I didn't want to derail the thread by bringing this up again, so thanks. :lol

I have to agree with that guy, somewhat. Sometimes the 3d looks nice, but I would say it does look like everything is just layers of 2d cardboard cut-outs most of the time (to me, of course). Are you all saying you don't see this? I have astigmatism (my eyes struggle to focus), so maybe that has to do with it?

 

[SolidSnakex]

I wanna seem them go apeshit crazy on stage with Arc. Show everything it can do and then some. Stop holding back you bastardos!

They're probably holding back because they don't want to go through another E3 05 situation. So instead of showing you videos of what they hope the thing can do, they're limiting what they show to some tech demos of what they know it can do until the games they're working on are finally at a quality that they're happy with.

 

[Y2Kev]

Weren't you one of the guys in the other thread who was claiming that there was no difference in accuracy or lag between Sony's system and Wii Motion+?

...because it seems like that would be trying to downplay this tech.

What if it's true?

 

[Suzzopher]

Final Fantasy XIII kept me up late last night and tonight I have the Sony conference to watch*sigh* Another day knackered at work tomorrow.

 

[Man]

We need a online draw chat on the XMB. You can save your drawings as jpg/png and send them as usual.

Also a more in-depth drawing app with layers, layer transparency and control of image bounds, the type of creations we can make completely takes off.

 

[Lonely1]

I didn't want to derail the thread by bringing this up again, so thanks. :lol

I have to agree with that guy, somewhat. Sometimes the 3d looks nice, but I would say it does look like everything is just layers of 2d cardboard cut-outs most of the time (to me, of course). Are you all saying you don't see this? I have astigmatism (my eyes struggle to focus), so maybe that has to do with it?

My problem with Sony focusing on 3D is that it would require an expensive new TV to take advantage of it.

 

[gofreak]

They're probably holding back because they don't want to go through another E3 05 situation. So instead of showing you videos of what they hope the thing can do, they're limiting what they show to some tech demos of what they know it can do until the games they're working on are finally at a quality that they're happy with.

I somehow doubt we'll see tech demos at this stage, even at GDC. I think it'll probably be 'real game' examples of the technology. Ala TGS, but perhaps with a more technical edge for a developer crowd (if, indeed, developers have been invited to this thing).

In other words, I think we're much closer to E3 06 than E3 05 here And if last year was 'E3 05' for the motion controller, I think they were pointedly more 'this is what it actually is', about showing it precisely as it was, than visioneering something. They learned their lesson, for now anyway!

But they will of course hold stuff back for E3 as always.

 

[Lonely1]

Exaclty, of what conference are you guys talking about? I read the GDC schedule and found nothing :/

 

[tzare]

if sony wants to impress media, they need to show KZ3 or something similar using ARC.

BTW, has the 'nunchuk' any motion sensing capabilities?

 

[beast786]

What if it's true?

 

[Trailblaster]

We need a online draw chat on the XMB. You can save your drawings as jpg/png and send them as usual.

Also a more in-depth drawing app with layers, layer transparency and control of image bounds, the type of creations we can make completely takes off.

Now that would be Awesome! Playstation Picochat

 

[UntoldDreams]

My problem with Sony focusing on 3D is that it would require an expensive new TV to take advantage of it.

Actually when you think about it Sega made a 3D glasses solution a long time ago.
An old tube tv is perfectly capable of putting up 320x240 stereoscopic TV output.

Frankly, the Wii could do 3D TV output on a tube TV since the Sega Master System also did it.

However... For existing HD flat panel TV's we have a lot of issues though.

Some TV's like Sony and Samsung have post processing "Game Lag" type of video effects. This would really screw up the synchronization with the glasses unless the TV itself is synchronized with the glasses somehow to account for the 200ms lag.

That is probably why they require newer TV models that make all this stuff "just work" like the old tube tv's where everything was basically the same.

 

[Man]

BTW, has the 'nunchuk' any motion sensing capabilities?

Probably equal to Nunchuck which has acc.meters I think (but no gyros).

 

[gofreak]

Exaclty, of what conference are you guys talking about? I read the GDC schedule and found nothing :/

Sony has a press conference at 7pm EST. It's not officially part of GDC, they're running it outside GDC but in parallel to it.

if sony wants to impress media, they need to show KZ3 or something similar using ARC.

BTW, has the 'nunchuk' any motion sensing capabilities?

That would obviously have high potential to impress depending on the implementation, but I think there's a variety of games they could pick from to show that also have potential to demonstrate well what can be done with it, or what they will be doing with it.

I said before, but I don't think KZ3 will be shown at GDC. I think it's more a E3 thing. And I sort of actually have doubts about the rumours going around about it, so I'm not sure I believe it'll incorporate everything that's rumoured...

Re. nunchuck, I'd guess yes, since DS3 has some motion sensing capability. I guess it would mirror that.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

What if it's true?

Well, how would he possibly know?

 

[Zoramon089]

Weren't you one of the guys in the other thread who was claiming that there was no difference in accuracy or lag between Sony's system and Wii Motion+?

...because it seems like that would be trying to downplay this tech.

I seem to remember you posting year old E3 videos from when the motion+ was first revealed as proof that there was lag, when there were videos of the current build showing that had been remedied...

 

[rollingstart]

What if it's true?

If it's true, then at worst the Sony remote would be on par with the Wii remote w/motion+...what a travesty that would be!

I still don't understand why there is so much discussion about this. People are throwing fanboy this and that around because that's all it seems like. Just looking at how both tech work, it should be easy to see how they are different. Sometimes it seems like people are feigning ignorance to make it seem like they're the same when they're not. I almost feel like drawing a picture to show this but because other seem so disingenuous it would be a waste of time.

In the end, people who like one will like the other. Software matters, etc etc.

 

[mr_nothin]

My problem with Sony focusing on 3D is that it would require an expensive new TV to take advantage of it.

So did HD and 1080p...

 

[Lonely1]

Sony has a press conference at 7pm EST. It's not officially part of GDC, they're running it outside GDC but in parallel to it.

And is this about Arc? or Sony "general press conference".

That would obviously have high potential to impress depending on the implementation, but I think there's a variety of games they could pick from to show that also have potential to demonstrate well what can be done with it, or what they will be doing with it.

I said before, but I don't think KZ3 will be shown at GDC. I think it's more a E3 thing. And I sort of actually have doubts about the rumours going around about it, so I'm not sure I believe it'll incorporate everything that's rumoured...

Are rumors "Arc support and 3D" or is there somehting more precisse?

Re. nunchuck, I'd guess yes, since DS3 has some motion sensing capability. I guess it would mirror that.

I don't think is in sony best interest to use the motion sensing of the DS3 while using Arc. :/

 

[gofreak]

Are rumors "Arc support and 3D" or is there somehting more precisse?

Arc support, 3D and this year. I doubt at least one of these things.

I don't thing is in sony best interest to use the motion sensing of the DS3 while using Arc. :/

Well, the non-dominant hand is going to have either another wand, or a ds3/nunchuck (in games that need it anyway)/ In the latter case it makes sense for the nunchuck to have the same motion-sensing capabilities as the DS3 so devs can use it if they want, and not be forced to ignore it because the nunchuck doesn't have any.

The DS3 motion sensors aren't terrible. I believe it even has a 1-axis gyroscope (for yaw rotation I believe). More than enough for 'nunchuck-y' style motion gestures etc.

 

[poppabk]

Weren't you one of the guys in the other thread who was claiming that there was no difference in accuracy or lag between Sony's system and Wii Motion+?

...because it seems like that would be trying to downplay this tech.

I'm not sure why equating Motion+ and Sony Arc/move would be considered downplaying the tech. Its the equivalent of saying that a multiplat game looks the same on PS3 and 360. The Arc/move uses a lot of the same technology as the Motion+, the gyroscopes are probably very similar (the technology that is responsible for mapping the spin in the gif) and they may even be using the same underlying programming for interpreting the gyroscope data.

 

[Trailblaster]

I don't think is in sony best interest to use the motion sensing of the DS3 while using Arc. :/

Why not? Irregardless to how much as it gets shit on the Gyros and tilt sensors in the DS3 very good.

 

[Lonely1]

Why not? Regardless to how much as it gets shit on the Gyros and tilt sensors in the DS3 very good.

Because the DS3 isn't designed to be used with one hand. The grip isn't very good while using it like that. See the Wiimote and all those lawsuits that forced Nintendo to replace the strap for a stronger one and give the condom for free.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

I seem to remember you posting year old E3 videos from when the motion+ was first revealed as proof that there was lag, when there were videos of the current build showing that had been remedied...

Your memory is flawed.

I have never posted a video of that kind, or anything like it. I have never posted any video criticizing Wii or Wii Motion+.

 

[onken]

Grab it before I remove it again:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4049/4422063477_f1cc46d16b_o.gif

Thanks man, you're a legend.

 

[Y2Kev]

Well, how would he possibly know?

He could have a magic ass

 

[Absolute Bastard]

I just watched the sword gif more closely and it actually demonstrates the some of the flaws of motions controls. The sword in the gif moves much faster than a real sword could because the controller is much lighter, this is a serious issue with 1:1 mapping. In an actual sword fighting game with 1:1 mapping player can spam attacks with the light controller possibly making the whole game a complete mess, if swords movement speed is limited or stamina meter is added 1:1 mapping is lost taking the whole point of waggle with it. Also having the sword in game respond diffirently from the controller can make the game really nasty to play. Very careful game design could work around this, but making a good waggle game isn't going to be easy, in fact I'd quess it's much harder to make good waggle games than normal games.

 

[Man]

Lots of Sony news at GDC later today. The motion control becomes a reality.

.

 

[Man]

Be sure to watch today's PlayStation #GDC10 news LIVE on our streaming video page:http://j.mp/cOjp8T Don't miss it!

IT's HAPPENING!

 

[UntoldDreams]

I just watched the sword gif more closely and it actually demonstrates the some of the flaws of motions controls. The sword in the gif moves much faster than a real sword could because the controller is much lighter, this is a serious issue with 1:1 mapping. In an actual sword fighting game with 1:1 mapping player can spam attacks with the light controller possibly making the whole game a complete mess, if swords movement speed is limited or stamina meter is added 1:1 mapping is lost taking the whole point of waggle with it. Also having the sword in game respond diffirently from the controller can make the game really nasty to play. Very careful game design could work around this, but making a good waggle game isn't going to be easy, in fact I'd quess it's much harder to make good waggle games than normal games.

Yes game design will be paramount.

Being "staggered" by a big attack would have to stop tracking your motion 1:1 while your avatar on screen recovers. Then again this concept is in Street Fighter as well.

I am pushing forward and hitting the punch button. However, Ryu is not moving forward because he has just received a boot to the face.

Its going to come down to game design.

 

[TTP]

You are talking nonsense Absolute Bastard. You have to realize that 1:1 mapping is just how the basic tech behaves, but doesn't rule out the possibility to add layers of latency and "inaccuracy" to it to achieve whatever feeling you want.

 

[gofreak]

This is a small thing, and it's a CVG rumour so I probably shouldn't ascribe enormous accuracy to it, but they've a report here basically 'confirming' reports from neogaf about the nunchuck, from a 'rock solid' dev source at GDC.

Anyway, the bit that's perhaps notable is that they say the nunchuck connects wirelessly to the wand.

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=238517

So maybe it won't occupy 2 Bluetooth spots from the PS3's POV? Not a big thing, but the only new thing I could parse from their report

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

Wii motionplus can handle the same spinning action as that gif. The thing that motionplus can't do is the height (and depth) sensing.

Aside from the camera (that allows for height and depth sensing) the Arc has exactly the same motion detection hardware setup as the Wiimote with motionplus (3 axis Accellorometer + 3 axis Gyroscope)

Oh and Wii Sports Resort's swordfighting shows that the lack of recoil is not a problem in an actual game with 1-1 controls (I don't know why this argument still persists)

 

[Linkified]

Because the DS3 isn't designed to be used with one hand. The grip isn't very good while using it like that. See the Wiimote and all those lawsuits that forced Nintendo to replace the strap for a stronger one and give the condom for free.

And I have yet to play a Wii game with nunchuck support that you actually physically throw it about in your room. So I don't think thats a major concern.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

Had to revisit this, just for the record...

I seem to remember you posting year old E3 videos from when the motion+ was first revealed as proof that there was lag, when there were videos of the current build showing that had been remedied...

Yeah, it appears my memory was pretty clear, while you are all wrong:

Guys, this and the wii with motion+ are virtually the same...I mean, technically this is the same as the wii without motion+. Think about it

Camera + ball + accelerometers/gyros (in wand) = 3d positioning and motion tracking
IR port + sensor ball + accelerometers/gyros (in remote) = 3d positioning and motion tracking

The KEY difference is the ball is big enough to be seen by the camera at all times regardless of the orientation of the wand while the IR port can only see the LEDs in the sensor bar when it's pointed at it, which is the reason for it's absolute 3d positioning limitation. The motion+ corrects this with added gyros that allow for it to accurately calculate it's position even without the sensor bar being pointed which allows for a WAY larger range of motions

People who say there's a significant difference in the accuracy or that the M+ has more lag don't know what they're talking about

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16147046&postcount=525

So yeah, I remembered correctly. You did say this was the same in accuracy and lag as Wii or Wii Motion+.



Nice try trying to change the subject and put something on me though...too bad it isn't true at all. Yeah, you were wrong when you claimed I posted that video. I didn't. Somebody else did.

EDIT: It was Buggy Loop, here:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16136685&postcount=150


And then you were arguing about lag with drakesfortune about lag seen in a video YOU posted. You weren't arguing with me.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16147459&postcount=533


Actually, I wasn't criticizing Wii or Wii Motion+ in that thread at all. All I was doing was going through the nearly-decade-long history of Sony and Dr. Marks researching and R&Ding this tech. Which is nothing more than giving credit where credit is due.

 

[Zoramon089]

Wii motionplus can handle the same spinning action as that gif. The thing that motionplus can't do is the height (and depth) sensing.

Aside from the camera (that allows for height and depth sensing) the Arc has exactly the same motion detection hardware setup as the Wiimote with motionplus (3 axis Accellorometer + 3 axis Gyroscope)

The accelerometers in conjunction with gyros allow the wiimote to calculate height and depth, although those are estimates because they're from integrated accelerometer values

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

The accelerometers in conjunction with gyros allow the wiimote to calculate height and depth, although those are estimates because they're from integrated accelerometer values

Yeah but it can't do absolute positioning like Arc can. It can sense what direction it is being moved in, but not how far it is actually moved.

 

[Rapstah]

"Sfarcuri" means "nipples" in Romanian. That'd be the only thing close to a swear "arc" could mean in any European-ish language :lol

 

[Zoramon089]

Yeah but it can't do absolute positioning like Arc can. It can sense what direction it is being moved in, but not how far it is actually moved.

Wouldn't that be found by simply keeping track of how long the motion was done for? I feel like that is done by simply integrating over the sampling time and using the gyro (in addition to relative accel values) to see the direction of the vector of movement

 

[beast786]

Can you guys please stop using the word GYRO. I am getting all hungry

 

[Panajev2001a]

The accelerometers in conjunction with gyros allow the wiimote to calculate height and depth, although those are estimates because they're from integrated accelerometer values

There is no Gyroscope in the regular Wii Remote, only the Motion+ add-on has a three-axis one.

IIRC
SIXAXIS: 3-axis accelerometer + 1-axis gyroscope

Wii Remote: 3-axis accelerometer (+IR camera for pointing)

Wii Motion+: 3-axis gyroscope

PSWand: 3-axis accelerometer + 3-axis gyroscope

 

[Lonely1]

Wouldn't that be found by simply keeping track of how long the motion was done for? I feel like that is done by simply integrating over the sampling time and using the gyro (in addition to relative accel values) to see the direction of the vector of movement

But it wouldn't be as precise as Arc permanent optical tracking of the actual position of the device.

 

[InterMoniker]

Weren't you one of the guys in the other thread who was claiming that there was no difference in accuracy or lag between Sony's system and Wii Motion+?

...because it seems like that would be trying to downplay this tech.

It would be funny if you caught him in a lie.

:Edit looks like you did ^ ^ :lol

 

[Lonely1]

This is a small thing, and it's a CVG rumour so I probably shouldn't ascribe enormous accuracy to it, but they've a report here basically 'confirming' reports from neogaf about the nunchuck, from a 'rock solid' dev source at GDC.

Anyway, the bit that's perhaps notable is that they say the nunchuck connects wirelessly to the wand.

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=238517

So maybe it won't occupy 2 Bluetooth spots from the PS3's POV? Not a big thing, but the only new thing I could parse from their report

So, what is going to be the cost of this thing?

 

[Pristine_Condition]

It would be funny if you caught him in a lie.

Well, he did already claim that he remembered me posting a video I never posted.

EDIT: Yeah. :lol

 

[UntoldDreams]

Wouldn't that be found by simply keeping track of how long the motion was done for? I feel like that is done by simply integrating over the sampling time and using the gyro (in addition to relative accel values) to see the direction of the vector of movement

A
.......................distance..............[WiiMote]
B


(I believe that the Wii can sufficiently approximate height and distance to play games by the way regardless)

That being said using only 2 points on the SensorBar (A B) the wiimote can only detect a single 2D plane.

If you do both motions (height & depth) at the same time then the Wiimote does not have enough data to accurately determine what happened when errors are introduced by the accelerometers.

Basically, for the Wii they need a third point C on the top of the TV and sensor bar on the bottom of the TV if they wanted to truly get 1 to 1 motion.

 

[Y2Kev]

So, what is going to be the cost of this thing?

You have to take out a tarp loan to buy it

 

[beast786]

Lots of Sony news at GDC later today. The motion control becomes a reality.

6hrs from now. Perfect timing. 7PM EST

 

[linsivvi]

It is not a flaw of motion control. It's like saying button mashing is a flaw of traditional control. You can hit the jump button a million times in Mario but that does mean he will jump every single time.

Obviously user input will be restricted by the rules of the game, regardless of input methods.

 

[Lonely1]

A
.......................distance..............[WiiMote]
B


(I believe that the Wii can sufficiently approximate height and distance to play games by the way regardless)

That being said using only 2 points on the SensorBar (A B) the wiimote can only detect a single 2D plane.

If you do both motions (height & depth) at the same time then the Wiimote does not have enough data to accurately determine what happened when errors are introduced by the accelerometers.

Basically, for the Wii they need a third point C on the top of the TV and sensor bar on the bottom of the TV if they wanted to truly get 1 to 1 motion.

you forget that the sensor consist of two array of leds, not just two leds.