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[Zoramon089]

No because that would require a point of reference for it to compare the data to (the accellorometer data would only show a direction of movement and then default to zero again as soon as that motion is detected)

It can work if you point it at the sensor bar (as it can compare the accellorometer movement data with the sensor bar's position as detected by the IR camera) but that is of course limited by the fact that the remote would have to remain pointed at the sensor bar.

But couldn't the positioning of the gyro could be used as a reference because that's absolute and doesn't change regardless of the orientation of the remote?

Think about it (well consider this). Using the sensor bar you INITIALLY determine the distance from the bar the wiimote is. Then you make a movement. You have accelerometer values on 3 axis's and the gyro and using those you can create a force vector of the direction of movement. Then double integrating over the sample time, you can create a distance vector and calculate how far the remote moved in that small time span.

I always thought this was how it was done with the sensor bar ONLY used for calibration because gyro's drift. Obviously this would be less accurate than having an actual point of reference but it doesn't make sense for absolute 3d orientation to be known and not 3d position

 

[SSJ1Goku]

Please god tell me there will be an archery game for this. My favorite sport in WSR, and I wouldn't mind getting trophies on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72YbPy4u79o&feature=related

 

[gofreak]

No because that would require a point of reference for it to compare the data to (the accellorometer data would only show a direction of movement and then default to zero again as soon as that motion is detected)

It can work if you point it at the sensor bar (as it can compare the accellorometer movement data with the sensor bar's position as detected by the IR camera) but that is of course limited by the fact that the remote would have to remain pointed at the sensor bar.

There's a couple of other big problems here too. First, an accelerometer can't tell the difference between linear accelerations and rotations. Second, the degradation of accelerometer data over time is pretty bad anyway.

The motion+ adds gyroscopes which lets you determine the difference between angular and linear motion, but you're still kind of at the mercy of the accelerometers for the latter, hence why the m+ has to still 'reset' every couple of seconds, can only track for a couple of seconds before resets.

The second idea though of trying to use the sensor bar to determine location...I thought about this too, and aside from the problem of keeping the sensor bar within the wiimotes field of view, you have the bigger problem of the ambiguity in data with respect to pitch and y translation. The capture of the sensor bar can't tell you the difference between a pitch rotation and a y axis translation. It doesn't matter for pointing, because the result of either motion for a cursor on screen is the same, but it matters a lot obviously if you were trying to work out the location of the device in space.

the only difference is the absolute positioning, which isn't really as big a deal as you might think for most applications. Things like sword fighting or golfing or most motions will end up being 90% the same for most cases between the two devices

I think removing this limitation on how long data is 'good' for is a pretty good step, aside from 'absolute positioning' (although they're linked, I suppose). Maybe with neat reset functionality you can mask this well in certain cases, but being able to seamlessly track its linear motion and location with the same level of accuracy over time without worrying about resets or transitions or shaping your set of allowed player input to accomodate resets etc. would, I think, be fairly liberating. Assuming the gyro data is good too over long periods, you have a full set of tracking data that doesn't go bad quickly.

 

[Davidion]

Tech looks pretty good, now we need the games.

No sideways wielding is a bitch, but it is what it is.

 

[hxa155]

These are the games conformed to be using ARC so far:
* Ape Escape
* Champions of Time
* Eccentric Slider
* Echochrome 2
* EyePet
* Flower
* High Velocity Bowling
* Hustle Kings
* LittleBigPlanet
* Motion Party
* Pain
* Resident Evil 5: Alternate Edition
* The Shoot
* Sing and Draw
* Tower
* EA Sports Active 2.0
* Tiger Woods 10
* Under Siege

I see some casual games in there. Hopefully Sony will show us something tonight. Man, so excited.

 

[durendal]

No sideways wielding is a bitch, but it is what it is.

I see no reason why this would not be possible. I believe ARC uses gyroscopes for rotation.

 

[Lonely1]

There's a couple of other big problems here too. First, an accelerometer can't tell the difference between linear accelerations and rotations. Second, the degradation of accelerometer data over time is pretty bad anyway.

The motion+ adds gyroscopes which lets you determine the difference between angular and linear motion, but you're still kind of at the mercy of the accelerometers for the latter, hence why the m+ has to still 'reset' every couple of seconds, can only track for a couple of seconds before resets.

The second idea though of trying to use the sensor bar to determine location...I thought about this too, and aside from the problem of keeping the sensor bar within the wiimotes field of view, you have the bigger problem of the ambiguity in data with respect to pitch and y translation. The capture of the sensor bar can't tell you the different between a pitch rotation and a y axis translation. It doesn't matter for pointing, because the result of either motion for a cursor on screen is the same, but it matters a lot obviously if you were trying to work out the location of the device in space.



I think removing this limitation on how long data is 'good' for is a pretty good step, aside from 'absolute positioning' (although they're linked, I suppose). Maybe with neat reset functionality you can mask this well in certain cases, but being able to seamlessly track its linear motion and location with the same level of accuracy over time without worrying about resets or transitions or shaping your set of allowed player input to accomodate resets etc. would, I think, be fairly liberating. Assuming the gyro data is good too over long periods, you have a full set of tracking data that doesn't go bad quickly.

You are right. But I see limited uses for absolute 3D positioning, mostly for the agumented reality stuff. For, let's say, Demon Souls Arc, you want to move your character with the nunchuck, so the sword will always be centered in the character's arm. That's how Wii Sport Sword Works. The limits on Sword control doesn't really come from the lack of 1-1 of WM+ part, but from the basic hit/physics of the game. Something that a bigger budget and the beefier processor of the Ps3 work on.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

Too bad there wasn't an official Wii Motion+ thread for all this Wii Motion+ tech discussion...

 

[Davidion]

I see no reason why this would not be possible. I believe ARC uses gyroscopes for rotation.

Not if there's a giant ball in the way and the buttons aren't oriented properly.

We'll see how it's implemented.

Edit: Maybe you misunderstood me; I'm talking about holding it side ways and using it like a regular controller.

Let me get this straight: now everybody loves motion control?

:lol Right?

 

[PSGames]

Let me get this straight: now everybody loves motion control?

:lol It is kind of funny. Given this isn't that much different from what the Wii has.

 

[Majine]

:lol It is kind of funny. Given this isn't that much different from what the Wii has.

This has Ape Escape. Nuff zed.

 

[Ashes]

If its is does measure in full 3d like the vid above says, I hope devs don't fuck up with basic calibration process like distance. I want to be able to play from the sofa.

And even in the case of sony; Eye pet for the kids was really troublesome for my nieces and nephews, because of the spatial awareness / augmented reality stuff. You had to be a certain distance away etc. and even then it didn't work nearly half as efficiently.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

Not if there's a giant ball in the way and the buttons aren't oriented properly.

We'll see how it's implemented.

:lol Right?

I don't even know what you mean by "sideways wielding," Davidion, so I can't help at all. :lol

 

[Kagari]

Let me get this straight: now everybody loves motion control?

I don't.

 

[Garjon]

Let me get this straight: now everybody loves motion control?

Not exactly, I am interested in what Sony does to differentiate themselves and the technology behind it, but overall, I'll probably be quite a hard sell.

 

[Dead Prince]

needs a fishing game that is addictive. i'm surprise Nintendo never thought of doing it.

 

[Davidion]

I don't even know what you mean by "sideways wielding," Davidion, so I can't help at all. :lol

I explained it above; when I said wielding it sideways I mean holding it horizontally like it's a regular two-handed controller.

needs a fishing game that is addictive. i'm surprise Nintendo never thought of doing it.

The fishing in Twilight Princess was better than the rest of the game, and I liked the rest of the game.

 

[Man]

Christ, lots of Killzone fans in that KZ2 thread, jeez.

 

[sullyj]

needs a fishing game that is addictive. i'm surprise Nintendo never thought of doing it.

Dark Cloud 3 please.

 

[Dave Long]

Let me get this straight: now everybody loves motion control?

As of release of this and Microsoft's stuff, motion control will suddenly be cool to the so-called core gamers.

It's the same thing as Sony pairing PSP with PS3 for connectivity. When Nintendo did it with GBA/Gamecube it was teh ghey. As soon as the others try something similar it's awesome.

 

[bluehat9]

needs a fishing game that is addictive. i'm surprise Nintendo never thought of doing it.

Wait til Zelda.

As for Sony, I'm interested in what they can do. It's just that I haven't found anything "omg awesome" with motion controls themselves on wii so I don't have high hopes for this either (or Natal). We'll see though.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

If its is does measure in full 3d like the vid above says, I hope devs don't fuck up with basic calibration process like distance. I want to be able to play from the sofa.

And even in the case of sony; Eye pet for the kids was really troublesome for my nieces and nephews, because of the spatial awareness / augmented reality stuff. You had to be a certain distance away etc. and even then it didn't work nearly half as efficiently.

Certain games are going to work best within a certain range/field of view for the camera, for sure. Nice that the PSEye has the zoom lens on the camera to give at least a little more flexibility here, but you will still have to play within whatever predetermined ranges the developer requires for games to work correctly and accurately, I'd imagine.

From the demos, it looks like there's some decent amount of flexibility there though. I'm curious how developers will implement the process of showing the player where they need to be in space at the beginning of the game though. They should try to make this process as intuitive as possible.

 

[beast786]

As of release of this and Microsoft's stuff, motion control will suddenly be cool to the so-called core gamers.

It's the same thing as Sony pairing PSP with PS3 for connectivity. When Nintendo did it with GBA/Gamecube it was teh ghey. As soon as the others try something similar it's awesome.

I am glad you have clear this mess out. I was surprize why people sound intrested in Motion control in a thread about motion control.

 

[Serenity]

I predict the level of butthurt will only increase as the conference gets closer:lol

And I'm still anti motion controls some of the technology discussion in this thread has been really interesting though.

 

[shoplifter]

I still can't believe that when I called the thing a disco stick upon the reveal that it managed to stick and spread around the interwebs. :lol

 

[Pristine_Condition]

I explained it above; when I said wielding it sideways I mean holding it horizontally like it's a regular two-handed controller.

Hmmm. I got you now.

I don't see why you'd want to do that, vs. just use a DS3.

Maybe you could put a glowing ball into the USB port on the front of the DS3 if you needed something like that...actually, come to think of it, that could work.

 

[gofreak]

You are right. But I see limited uses for absolute 3D positioning, mostly for the agumented reality stuff. For, let's say, Demon Souls Arc, you want to move your character with the nunchuck, so the sword will always be centered in the character's arm. That's how Wii Sport Sword Works. The limits on Sword control doesn't really come from the lack of 1-1 of WM+ part, but from the basic hit/physics of the game. Something that a bigger budget and the beefier processor of the Ps3 can fix.

Sure, where what you're controlling isn't dependent on the position of the controller in real space, the absoluteness of the positioning or whatever doesn't matter. And that would indeed be a typical case.

However it's more the quality of tracking over time that has relevance there. Like in the E3 sword demo, it was exactly as you say, the character's position was fixed, and it was holding a sword...so your position in space didn't really matter. But it was the ability to track accurately over time that was important there with a complex chain of motions over many seconds in some cases... that ability is linked to absolute positioning even though it doesn't use the position in the space to, say, locate the characters arm to another location or whatever. The usefulness of that data instead in these cases is in keeping a perfect track of the linear motion of the controller ad infinitum.

 

[SecretBonusPoint]

As of release of this and Microsoft's stuff, motion control will suddenly be cool to the so-called core gamers.

It's the same thing as Sony pairing PSP with PS3 for connectivity. When Nintendo did it with GBA/Gamecube it was teh ghey. As soon as the others try something similar it's awesome.

Content is king. If Sony can show awesome motion controlled games, it becomes 'cool'. Flower is one of the best uses of motion control to date, and thats only using the limited sixaxis stuff. Nintendo themselves havent really done much with their motion control beyond the Wii Sports series. Galaxy had fairly gimmicky useage of it, Metroid seems to not focus on it and perhaps Zelda will be the big use of it finally, but we'll see.

On topic of connectivity, once again, Nintendo never really did much with it beyond that Wind Waker stuff (seems Zelda is definitely the franchise for this kinda experimental tech thing) and Pac Man Versus, whereas the PSP/PS3 stuff showed far more useful applications of it such as Adhoc Party and Remote Play.

Nintendo is often infuriating as sure they'll innovate, but they'll never go all in on it and develop something truly amazing with that tech. Sony however wrings their 'innovation' (semi-stolen or not) of everything they can with their harem of brilliant first party studios.

 

[WinFonda]

Let me get this straight: now everybody loves motion control?

Personally speaking, it isn't the motion controls that puts me off to the Wii. It's everything else. It's the low res graphics, the poor online implementation, the lower feature set in general.

So yeah, I'm excited about PS3's offering because it potentially combines the best of both worlds.

 

[onken]

Oh man this thread is great.

 

[SuperSonic1305]

The only problem I ever had with the Wii is that it isn't HD and the games look terrible on my TV thus I haven't bought a new game since Smash Bros and never finished Mario Galaxy. At least that won't be a problem with Arc/Natal

 

[Bad_Boy]

Now that would be something I could get behind. I absolutely loved KZ:L.


Really though, the killer app for me is, was, and always shall be...APE ESCAPE PS3.

Yeah, and imagine it having the KZ2 engine. It already looked amazing on the psp. Ape Escape would be cool too, I just hope it gets some mature titles.

 

[mr_nothin]

Personally speaking, it isn't the motion controls that puts me off to the Wii. It's everything else. It's the low res graphics, the poor online implementation, the lower feature set in general.

So yeah, I'm excited about PS3's offering because it potentially combines the best of both worlds.

And lets not forget to mention actual GAMES.
You cant play games like Bad Company 2 and GOWIII and KZ2 (or KZ3!) on the Wii. Not in the same way that they can be played on the PS3.

Plus, the motion is more accurate 1:1 (hopefully that means no wii-like fps controls and some real 1:1 fps control schemes).

 

[Majine]

No real pictures leaked yet? You're improving, Sony.

 

[Lonely1]

Plus, the motion is more accurate 1:1 (hopefully that means no wii-like fps controls and some real 1:1 fps control schemes).

What do you mean about real FPS control schemes? Wii's really work well and I don't see how arc can do them better...

 

[InterMoniker]

Let me get this straight: now everybody loves motion control?

Seriously :lol .

As of release of this and Microsoft's stuff, motion control will suddenly be cool to the so-called core gamers.

It's the same thing as Sony pairing PSP with PS3 for connectivity. When Nintendo did it with GBA/Gamecube it was teh ghey. As soon as the others try something similar it's awesome.

The fun police have arrived. Time to tone down your excitement people :|

 

[GeoramA]

No real pictures leaked yet? You're improving, Sony.

I'm impressed. Usually their whole conference is leaked by now :lol

 

[gerg]

Nintendo is often infuriating as sure they'll innovate, but they'll never go all in on it and develop something truly amazing with that tech. Sony however wrings their 'innovation' (semi-stolen or not) of everything they can with their harem of brilliant first party studios.

I'm sure you had the "core gamer" in mind with this post (and from that perspective I can agree), but I disagree with the implication that games like Wii Sports aren't "truly amazing" because they aren't specifically targeted towards a certain audience; they aim to do something, and they do that something really well (and, at the least, far better than many similar products out there).

The point being, it's all relative.

 

[PSGames]

And lets not forget to mention actual GAMES.
You cant play games like Bad Company 2 and GOWIII and KZ2 (or KZ3!) on the Wii. Not in the same way that they can be played on the PS3.

Plus, the motion is more accurate 1:1 (hopefully that means no wii-like fps controls and some real 1:1 fps control schemes).

Controlling FPS is going to be the exact same as it is for the Wii.

 

[hxa155]

The fun police have arrived. Time to tone down your excitement people :|

stop being ecxited guyyzzz, motion controlz is teh suxxors

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

The second idea though of trying to use the sensor bar to determine location...I thought about this too, and aside from the problem of keeping the sensor bar within the wiimotes field of view, you have the bigger problem of the ambiguity in data with respect to pitch and y translation. The capture of the sensor bar can't tell you the difference between a pitch rotation and a y axis translation. It doesn't matter for pointing, because the result of either motion for a cursor on screen is the same, but it matters a lot obviously if you were trying to work out the location of the device in space.

With motionplus, the wiimote can tell the difference since it can just sense whether or not the remote's rotational orientation matches the tilt of the camera (and if it's not the same, then it just interprets it as a change in pitch/y translation)

I think removing this limitation on how long data is 'good' for is a pretty good step, aside from 'absolute positioning' (although they're linked, I suppose). Maybe with neat reset functionality you can mask this well in certain cases, but being able to seamlessly track its linear motion and location with the same level of accuracy over time without worrying about resets or transitions or shaping your set of allowed player input to accomodate resets etc. would, I think, be fairly liberating. Assuming the gyro data is good too over long periods, you have a full set of tracking data that doesn't go bad quickly.

I agree, height sensing is definitely a good thing, I just don't think it's gonna make a big difference in most games since 1-1 orientation is enough for the vast majority of applications (even with sword fighting, the extra fidelity of height and depth sensing wouldn't really offer anything really different, that can't be replicated 99% the same through 1-1 orientation alone in terms of gameplay)

Samba de Amigo is the best example of how a game could benefit from the position tracking that I can think of (As FPS games, the other obvious candidate, on the Wii would be perfectly capable of the same positional tracking as Arc since you would be pointing it at the screen 99% of the time anyway)

Controlling FPS is going to be the exact same as it is for the Wii.

No it won't, without absolute pointing capabilities it's gonna be much slower and much more awkward to control than Wii FPS games.

 

[SecretBonusPoint]

I'm sure you had the "core gamer" in mind with this post (and from that perspective I can agree), but I disagree with the implication that games like Wii Sports aren't "truly amazing" because they aren't specifically targeted towards a certain audience; they aim to do something, and they do that something really well (and, at the least, far better than many similar products out there).

The point being, it's all relative.

Oh don't me wrong, I quite enjoyed Sports Resort indeed. But this was for the "MOTION CONTROL IS COOL NOW IS IT?!" crowd, and a mini-game basic tech demo compilation isn't going to cut it for "gamers" (most of GAF). You have to lead by example with this kinda thing, especially with the pockets of talent Nintendo and Sony have at their disposal and develop full 'game' experiences highlighting what you can do with the tech, and not expect third partys to do so because why should/would they?

 

[rollingstart]

As of release of this and Microsoft's stuff, motion control will suddenly be cool to the so-called core gamers.

It's the same thing as Sony pairing PSP with PS3 for connectivity. When Nintendo did it with GBA/Gamecube it was teh ghey. As soon as the others try something similar it's awesome.

Pairing PSP with PS3 was never cool, and likewise, why weren't the people into the GBA/Gamecube connection nonsense into the PSP/PS3 connectivity? Both sides are ridiculous.

 

[mr_nothin]

Controlling FPS is going to be the exact same as it is for the Wii.

We'll see...
I'm sure some will control the same way but I'm also guessing that we'll see a lot of 1:1 games.

Also, there's a difference in the way they approached FPS controls compared to the way the Wii works. What they demoed at E3 was less of pointing the front of the controller and more of actually moving the controller but hopefully they get some nifty absolute pointing in there.

 

[Lonely1]

No it won't, without absolute pointing capabilities it's gonna be much slower and much more awkward to control than Wii FPS games.

That's still to be seen. But been an skeptic is a reasonable position.

 

[Lonely1]

We'll see...
I'm sure some will control the same way but I'm also guessing that we'll see a lot of 1:1 games.

Also, there's a difference in the way they approached FPS controls compared to the way the Wii works. What they demoed at E3 was less of pointing the front of the controller and more of actually moving the controller but hopefully they get some nifty absolute pointing in there.

Which is no "better". In terms of accuracy and speed.

 

[krypt0nian]

The fun police have arrived. Time to tone down your excitement people :|

The reason some of us are interested now is that finally we can have current gen hardware (HD, physics, poly-pushing) AND motion controls without Nintendo cheaping out and saying its one or the other.

It could still suck. Who knows?

 

[TTP]

No it won't, without absolute pointing capabilities it's gonna be much slower and much more awkward to control than Wii FPS games.

You talk like the E3 demos never happened. The guy was pointing a frigging flashlight from any angle and towards any direction without issues. And then he did the same thing with a virtual gun.

Someone should gif those demos for reference cos I'm tired of pointing this out in words.

 

[krypt0nian]

 

[TTP]

Hmm... is that an "A"?

Edit - I see

http://edge-online.com/news/sony-motion-controller-gets-new-name

Sony has registered “PlayStation Move” in Europe, and is potentially the name of the upcoming motion controller – previously thought to be Arc.

The filing for the name was made in Europe yesterday and could signal that the name “Arc” has been dropped. The company also registered the image as shown above.


Sony will be holding its press conference for GDC today where hopefully the company will spell out its plans for the long talked about motion controller.