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[mr_nothin]

Which is no "better". In terms of accuracy and speed.

There was some analogy used before as to why it was a more accurate way. I think it was in the 1st ARC video released..or was that E3? Something about painting with a paint brush in your hand..rather than something something.

I believe it could be better if there was a mix.

But what I was really going for was that I wanted the controls to be more like PC gaming (the view is locked to the crosshair) rather than what the Wii has right now. Which is more like how Goldeneye controlled.

 

[Lonely1]

You talk like the E3 demos never happened. The guy was pointing a frigging flashlight from any angle and towards any direction without issues. And then he did the same thing with a virtual gun.

With aboslute pointing we are not talking about about, as I said in another thread:

"The thing is, you don't have to "point" to upper right corner in order to move there. A closer analogy is how the analog nub works. If you move the nub from the center, then the pointer in the screen moves to that direction. And how from the center you moved it determines the speed at what it moved. If you increase the sensibility in the game settings, the same movement with yields bigger on screen distances.

In the wii, if you move the control (camera) from the center, the cursor (and the camera) will move in that direction. Increasing or reducing the cursor and camera speed with yield different results from the same movement."

But what I was really going for was that I wanted the controls to be more like PC gaming (the view is locked to the crosshair) rather than what the Wii has right now. Which is more like how Goldeneye controlled.

That has to do with your hand inherent instability and lack of restraint, as opossed to a mouse resting in a flat surface with significant friction. Trying to play a FPS with a mouse on an air hockey table would be a better analogy. Arc won't make our hands any more stable.

 

[krypt0nian]

Hmm... is that an "A"?

http://edge-online.com/news/sony-motion-controller-gets-new-name

 

[Chris_C]

its not one of the english words that have made it into the set of people not really speaking english...

words like ... laptop, slim, move, arcade, love, smile, fastfood, frirmware, etc. did.

my parents know the meaning of these kinds of words - "arc" to them is like japanese... and to many europeans to... well to everyone who is not good in english

its one thing to create a new word, like bravia or zune... but calling it "arc" is just sounding very harsh, almost rude and if you dont know its meaning - its terrible...
germans calling it "arc" would be a PR nightmare for sony germany...

edit: i love the name, but i see no point in it calling it arc in europe... people dont know what it means ... and all that is left is a fucked up sounding word

How does "DualShock" fit into that category? Or "SixAxis"?

 

[SecretBonusPoint]

GAF > News > GAF in full effect with the Arc logo gofreak found earlier :lol

 

[TTP]

With aboslute pointing we are not talking about about, as I said in another thread:

"The thing is, you don't have to "point" to upper right corner in order to move there. A closer analogy is how the analog nub works. If you move the nub from the center, then the pointer in the screen moves to that direction. And how from the center you moved it determines the speed at what it moved. If you increase the sensibility in the game settings, the same movement with yields bigger on screen distances.

In the wii, if you move the control (camera) from the center, the cursor (and the camera) will move in that direction. Increasing or reducing the cursor and camera speed with yield different results from the same movement."

How that translates into "it's gonna be much slower and much more awkward to control than Wii FPS games" is still beyond me.

 

[Trailblaster]

Hmm... is that an "A"?

It's not just an "A" its Someone drawing an "A" with the ARC's light ball.
It looks just like the paint path on the paniting and drawing demo at last years E3

 

[gofreak]

With motionplus, the wiimote can tell the difference since it can just sense whether or not the remote's rotational orientation matches the tilt of the camera (and if it's not the same, then it just interprets it as a change in pitch/y translation)

I think it's probably a bit trickier than that...like when you have for example simultaneous changes to position and orientation, working out accurately how much of the change in the image of the sensor bar to attribute to translation vs rotation may be tricky. I think there's room for imprecision and ambiguity that over time, if you put imprecision on top of imprecision, could result in pretty off numbers.

Not to mention, of course, if you go outside the wiimote's field of view, you're effectively back to square one if trying to use it as a ground truth or beacon.

I've seen some people doing hacks though with the sensor bar to try and overcome some of this, rearranging the leds in different patterns that make it possible to use the sensor even alone to figure out rotation and position independently. Though still of course, you have to keep the sensor bar in the camera's view.

I agree, height sensing is definitely a good thing

Well, my comment there was about the ability to motion capture over prolonged periods thanks to absolute positioning, without resets. Knowing the height of the thing or whatever isn't a big deal outside of AR apps or whatnot, no, but it's the role of absolute position data in facilitating accurate motion tracking beyond a couple of seconds that's more significant.

No it won't, without absolute pointing capabilities it's gonna be much slower and much more awkward to control than Wii FPS games.

It's 'pointing capability' will depend on the quality of the gyroscope. Working out the xy position should be fine and dandy, but if orientation depends solely on the gyros, then the quality of that aspect of its pointing will depend on the quality of the gyro.

One thing it does have over the wiimote in terms of pointing apps, is independent knowledge of rotation and translation. For apps that might benefit from that (e.g. drawing). It's why they made such a big deal over it at e3.

 

[gofreak]

http://edge-online.com/news/sony-motion-controller-gets-new-name

Thieving bastards. I love that they give credit to 'The Netwerk' who couldn't even find the registration themselves :lol I purposefully neglected to link to the filings just to see who'd copy-and-paste my post.

I should have watermarked that picture

 

[mr_nothin]

That has to do with your hand inherent instability and lack of restraint, as opossed to a mouse resting in a flat surface with significant friction. Trying to play a FPS with a mouse on an air hockey table would be a better analogy. Arc won't make our hands any more stable.

Seemed to work pretty well with the flashlight and gun demos at E3.
Which is basically what developers for the Wii seemed to down at the beginning of the Wii's life. They all said that 1:1 just wasnt a viable option.

 

[Lonely1]

How does that translates into "it's gonna be much slower and much more awkward to control than Wii FPS games" is still beyond me.

It doesn't, but if Arc relies on the gyroscopes in order to track wand rotation it would be less precise than Wii's pure optical tracking for the pointer.

 

[krypt0nian]

Thieving bastards. I love that they give credit to 'The Netwerk' who couldn't even find the registration themselves :lol I purposefully neglected to link to the filings just to see who'd copy-and-paste my post.

I should have watermarked that picture

Made me giggle some too. God forbid they give creds.

 

[Lonely1]

Seemed to work pretty well with the flashlight and gun demos at E3.
Which is basically what developers for the Wii seemed to down at the beginning of the Wii's life. They all said that 1:1 just wasnt a viable option.

We are talcking about actual games compared to tech demos. There's nothing stopping from locking the screen to the cursor for wii games. But developer (and users like I) have found that it isn't the best solution.

 

[TTP]

It doesn't, but if Arc relies on the gyroscopes in order to track wand roation it would be less precise than Wii's pure optical tracking for the pointer.

It really depends on the gyroscope, which I assume BY LOOKING AT THE ACTUAL E3 DEMOS, does his job pretty fine.

I don't know why we are even discussing thing to be honest.

 

[[Nintex]]

I've been following this thread from a safe distance and oh boy this is going to fuel the fanboy wars for another couple of years.

I haven't yet decided who the biggest shortsighted dumbasses are but it's a close call.

2007: "Sony and MS have last gen controls, Nintendo is innovative, Gameplay >> Graphics!"
2010: "WAT, Microsoft and Sony copied Nintendo , what the hell Nintendo has the only right to use this new technology!"

or

2007: "Motion control sucks, core gaming is where it is at!" "Lol, like anyone wants to play a waggle swordfighting or FPS, at least we get REAL games"
2010: "Wow this technology is so awesome, why didn't anyone think of this before!"

 

[Trailblaster]

Thieving bastards. I love that they give credit to 'The Netwerk' who couldn't even find the registration themselves :lol I purposefully neglected to link to the filings just to see who'd copy-and-paste my post.

I should have watermarked that picture

gofreak
GAF's Batman
(Today, 08:15 PM)

 

[GeoramA]

Thieving bastards. I love that they give credit to 'The Netwerk' who couldn't even find the registration themselves :lol I purposefully neglected to link to the filings just to see who'd copy-and-paste my post.

I should have watermarked that picture

:lol

Joystiq>>>Edge

 

[Man]

It doesn't, but if Arc relies on the gyroscopes in order to track wand roation it would be less precise than Wii's pure optical tracking for the pointer.

It recognises led pattern (inside the ball) I believe the pattern mentioned.

In any case, we could talk about tech for ages. You only need to look at the presentation.

Look at that almost ten minute long live demonstration from E3 2009. It demonstrated pretty much every possible use (minus spin-throwing a sword).

 

[mr_nothin]

We are talcking about actual games compared to tech demos. There's nothing stopping from locking the screen to the cursor for wii games. But developer (and users like I) have found that it's the best solution.

I know that. But that's what I want. That was 1 of the main reasons why I was excited for motion controls in the 1st place. 1:1 FPS games that could match the accuracy of the mouse moreso than controllers. The way Wii games are setup right now, it's basically a more accurate controller. You cant do a 180/360 on a dime. You have to move the pointer to the edges and then it'll slowly turn. BS!

Gimme 1:1!

 

[yurinka]

It doesn't, but if Arc relies on the gyroscopes in order to track wand roation it would be less precise than Wii's pure optical tracking for the pointer.

It's helped by the camera to know the rotation. And as I remember, both the camera, the ultrasounds sended by the device to the 4 multidirectional mic array helps in addition to the motion sensors work to know 3D position.

Another good thing is that you don't need to point directly to the tv / camera / IR sensor to use the "pointer".

 

[Oozinator]

wow, GAF R&D session still going on ?

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

You talk like the E3 demos never happened. The guy was pointing a frigging flashlight from any angle and towards any direction without issues. And then he did the same thing with a virtual gun.

Someone should gif those demos for reference cos I'm tired of pointing this out in words.

That isn't the same as the Wii's pointer, that worked by sensing the orientation of the wand. It's not the same as having a cursor controlled onscreen (and the RE5 and LBP demos seemed to demonstrate a cursor being controlled by wider sweeping movements, which would be crap in comparison to the Wii's pointer controls) Their writing demo also relied on absolute position tracking rather than pointing...

We have yet to see an example of cursor controls that is nearly as fast or as accurate as the Wiimote's pointer and even if it could pull off absolute pointing with a camera setup that is the reverse of the Wii, the cursor still probably wouldn't be as accurate since the camera runs much slower than the Wiimote's (240FPS vs 60FPS)

It's 'pointing capability' will depend on the quality of the gyroscope. Working out the xy position should be fine and dandy, but if orientation depends solely on the gyros, then the quality of that aspect of its pointing will depend on the quality of the gyro.

Not really, it might be able to detect orientation accurately enough for it to be able to control a cursor fine enough, but the way you would have to move it would make it far too awkward to make it a viable wiimote pointer substitute. It would be the equivalent of using a gyroscopic mouse. Imagine holding a remote control, but instead of pointing at the screen to control the cursor, you tilt the controller around. That layer of abstraction greatly reduces the accuracy of the cursor for the player (and would make games like Trauma Center virtually impossible to play)

 

[gofreak]

It recognises led pattern (inside the ball) I believe the pattern mentioned.

It's something they patented, but we don't know if they're using it or not.

IF the orientation data is coming from the gyros alone, it obviously gonna depend on how good the gyros is. I don't know if we can compare the effectiveness of that vs Wiimote's optical tracking however, yet. Has anyone deigned to make such a comparison, and then again, with what kind/quality of gyroscope?

IF the orientation data is filtering some mix of gyro data and camera data then we're obviously in another territory also.

I'd probably lay my bet on the first, because it just seems simpler, but I would figure/hope that if this approach was not effective enough that they'd do something with optical tracking and those led patterns etc. If they're not, it may just because the gyro data is 'good enough'.

 

[Lan_97]

I know that. But that's what I want. That was 1 of the main reasons why I was excited for motion controls in the 1st place. 1:1 FPS games that could match the accuracy of the mouse moreso than controllers. The way Wii games are setup right now, it's basically a more accurate controller. You cant do a 180/360 on a dime. You have to move the pointer to the edges and then it'll slowly turn. BS!

Gimme 1:1!

How would 1:1 controls even work for an FPS?

 

[gofreak]

the cursor still probably wouldn't be as accurate since the camera runs much slower than the Wiimote's (240FPS vs 60FPS)

The Wiimote camera samples at 100hz apparently.

Eye can sample at 60hz or 120hz depending on the resolution used.

Sampling rate only tells one part of the whole latency/lag story, however. You need to know also the lag before camera data becomes available (which is different from sampling rate - I might sample at 100hz, but my sample at any given point may be x frames out of date depending - in the case of Eye, by the by, this number is 1 frame), and then also depends on subsequent processing etc.

In other words we really don't know enough to remotely start talking about comparative latency/lag here.

 

[TTP]

That isn't the same as the Wii's pointer, that worked by sensing the orientation of the wand. It's not the same as having a cursor controlled onscreen (and the RE5 and LBP demos seemed to demonstrate a cursor being controlled by wider sweeping movements, which would be crap in comparison to the Wii's pointer controls) Their writing demo also relied on absolute position tracking rather than pointing...

We have yet to see an example of cursor controls that is nearly as fast or as accurate as the Wiimote's pointer and even if it could pull off absolute pointing with a camera setup that is the reverse of the Wii, the cursor still probably wouldn't be as accurate since the camera runs much slower than the Wiimote's (240FPS vs 60FPS)

I dunno what else to say. We have videos of this thing working as intended and we are here talking technicalities.

Besides, the big advantage of the Sony tech that few realize is that you don't even have to hold the wand horizontally for pointing at the screen. You can hold it like a gun handle (or whatever the name is) which is more comfortable. Again, this was shown 1 year ago at E3.

 

[Chris_C]

not really so surprising. one has

- Polished game-like demo
- Visionary product experience video
- Simple gadget under TV
- Dude with oversized sunglasses

other one has

- Tech demo style grey presentation
- No vision video
- Glowing pink ball
- Geek who almost faints on stage

Which one will the general public get excited about it

I thought I was the only one who noticed Marks looked like he was about to pass out.

Also, I see where you're coming from regarding Natal's game like demo, but I think Sony's tech demos show more gameplay applications than Natal's have as yet.

 

[Mad_Ban]

Will there be a thread for Sony's conference? Or will this be used for discussion about it?

 

[Raist]

There's nothing stopping from locking the screen to the cursor for wii games. But developer (and users like I) have found that it isn't the best solution.

Yeah well the shakiness would be quite horrible so I guess that was indeed the "best" solution.

 

[mr_nothin]

How would 1:1 controls even work for an FPS?

Think of it like a 3D mouse of some sort.
I dont see how it wouldnt work...

Hopefully you'll be able to use a pointer too.

 

[InterMoniker]

I've been following this thread from a safe distance and oh boy this is going to fuel the fanboy wars for another couple of years.

I haven't yet decided who the biggest shortsighted dumbasses are but it's a close call.

2007: "Sony and MS have last gen controls, Nintendo is innovative, Gameplay >> Graphics!"
2010: "WAT, Microsoft and Sony copied Nintendo , what the hell Nintendo has the only right to use this new technology!"

or

2007: "Motion control sucks, core gaming is where it is at!" "Lol, like anyone wants to play a waggle swordfighting or FPS, at least we get REAL games"
2010: "Wow this technology is so awesome, why didn't anyone think of this before!"

Or you could stop being such a console warrior for a second and look at the situation like this.

The reason some of us are interested now is that finally we can have current gen hardware (HD, physics, poly-pushing) AND motion controls without Nintendo cheaping out and saying its one or the other.

It could still suck. Who knows?

It could still suck [Nintex]. Who knows?

 

[Y2Kev]

Or people could stop using reaction formation defense mechanisms for things that haven't even happened yet.

 

[gerg]

Or you could stop being such a console warrior for a second and look at the situation like this.

It could still suck [Nintex]. Who knows?

Can you not see that he is satirising both views?

 

[rollingstart]

I've been following this thread from a safe distance and oh boy this is going to fuel the fanboy wars for another couple of years.

I haven't yet decided who the biggest shortsighted dumbasses are but it's a close call.

or

It's good to know that both will get shamed enough. The Sony controller will prove to be the better tech (this is obvious) but it won't matter because it won't be popular. New Super Mario Bros Wii doens't use motion plus, and hell, it barely uses motion controls at all yet it was the biggest game for the Wii of last year. It's good to know that Sony and Microsoft discovered the secret sauce to Nintendo's success by bringing out their own motion control solutions!

I still think that other than marketing, the biggest failure for this sony remote is not having their motion controller act as a controller replacement. The controller should have had two shoulder buttons, four face buttons, one analog stick, and the start/select/home buttons. That way if you wanted to play older PS3 games on the system, you just pick up two of these wands and you essentially would have a break apart dual shock 3 with the four face buttons in the left hand taking the place of the d-pad. As it is now, I'm expected to have two different controllers to play these games. Some games I use the dual shock, other games I pick up the motion control.

 

[RustyNails]

Playstation Move? I think I liked Arc better :s

 

[gofreak]

How would 1:1 controls even work for an FPS?

Like this perhaps:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VBMEN5Bvpg

That's using motion tracking of the controller to control the camera instead of 'pointing'.

 

[Lonely1]

It's good to know that both will get shamed enough. The Sony controller will prove to be the better tech (this is obvious) but it won't matter because it won't be popular. New Super Mario Bros Wii doens't use motion plus, and hell, it barely uses motion controls at all yet it was the biggest game for the Wii of last year. It's good to know that Sony and Microsoft discovered the secret sauce to Nintendo's success by bringing out their own motion control solutions!

I still think that other than marketing, the biggest failure for this sony remote is not having their motion controller act as a controller replacement. The controller should have had two shoulder buttons, four face buttons, one analog stick, and the start/select/home buttons. That way if you wanted to play older PS3 games on the system, you just pick up two of these wands and you essentially would have a break apart dual shock 3 with the four face buttons in the left hand taking the place of the d-pad. As it is now, I'm expected to have two different controllers to play these games. Some games I use the dual shock, other games I pick up the motion control.

Makes me sad, this would have been the best controller ever made

 

[gofreak]

Make sme sad, this would have been the best controller ever

DS4 will probably make that happen.

If the biggest failure of this is not providing for that, though, then that's pretty good :lol For PS3 at least that's a small complaint. It's not a big deal to pick up the right controller for the right game, but for efficiency's sake, in a next-gen PS4 controller or whatever, of course it would make sense to bring them together into 'one'.

 

[El-Suave]

I would imagine "Move" to be a suitable name for the entire line of motion control games like Nintendo does it with their "Touch Generatiions" series.

As a name for the sticks themselves it seems hard to imagine.

 

[Man]

Fancy staying up to see something new? We're streaming the #GDC10 PlayStation Press Conference just for you! http://bit.ly/a9crWj

Ah screw it...

I'm staying up. Any other Europeans with me!?

 

[Dogenzaka]

that'd be hilarious.

"Sony Move"

Sony, MOVE!

 

[Lan_97]

Like this perhaps:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VBMEN5Bvpg

That's using motion tracking of the controller to control the camera instead of 'pointing'.

That doesn't look much different in practice. Instead of pointing at the screen, it looks like you calibrate to a neutral position. In my question, I meant how is 1:1 significantly better than pointer controls for an FPS.

 

[yurinka]

They need a great, fun and polished ad:

Kevin Buler
VP of 3D waggle sensing

Demoing all its advantages, usages and new features (including PS Eye features like headtracking) in various genres playing great games ranging from casual (this Everybody's Sports idea and some cool ThatGameCompany innovative concept) to hardcore (Killzone 3, Starhawk and a some non-shooter AAA hardcore exclusive like GT5).

 

[Lonely1]

That doesn't look much different in practice. Instead of pointing at the screen, it looks like you calibrate to a neutral position. In my question, I meant how is 1:1 significantly better than pointer controls for an FPS.

1-1 should mean Light-gun-like aiming. Real aiming.

 

[Dogenzaka]

I thought I was the only one who noticed Marks looked like he was about to pass out.

Also, I see where you're coming from regarding Natal's game like demo, but I think Sony's tech demos show more gameplay applications than Natal's have as yet.

Yeah I don't see much potential for Natal in "hardcore" game design.
There are no buttons, therefore simple tasks are made unnecessarily complex.

You can't play Tomb Raider on a Natal. Climbing all over your living room and doing backflips just isn't fun, because none of us are Lara Croft.

On the other hand, the PS Controller uses the best of both worlds, in my opinion.

 

[Ashes]

Yeah, I'm gonna be up...

 

[rollingstart]

Like this perhaps:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VBMEN5Bvpg

That's using motion tracking of the controller to control the camera instead of 'pointing'.

The sixense controller is really neat. The biggest advantage it has over the Wii remote and this Sony solution is that you don't need a line of sight with the point of reference, though, I believe it is limited by the range it works. Right now if you cover the front of the wii remote, or say, aim it outside the boundaries of your TV, it will flip out (though I've read Red Steel 2 might use motion plus to calculate the position off screen). The sony solution gives you more freedom since the camera can capture the controller at almost every angle/position.

There are videos showing that it can emulate the wii control style where the cursor moves around, but I couldn't find it on youtube.

The sixense thing will probably be like the novint falcon, as in, cool PC tech without much support. Though, Valve is cool and supports both! but that's valve.

 

[Lan_97]

1-1 should mean Light-gun-like aiming. Real aiming.

Pointers can be calibrated, in fact you will probably still have to calibrate the arc/move if you want a light gun experience on your tv. But that's besides the point, you still have to deal with same problems with turning.

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

1-1 should mean Light-gun-like aiming. Real aiming.

That won't work, the PS3 would have no idea at what point of the TV you are aiming the wand.

Like this perhaps:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VBMEN5Bvpg

That's using motion tracking of the controller to control the camera instead of 'pointing'.

That does require an extremely high level of sensitivity though (and still adds a heavy layer of abstraction) Still, that's probably closer to the kind of FPS setup I reckon you're gonna get with the Arc (though it probably wouldn't work so well with light gun style games or Trauma Center style pointer controls. I reckon those kind of controls will rely on absolute positioning instead of orientation)

 

[gofreak]

That doesn't look much different in practice. Instead of pointing at the screen, it looks like you calibrate to a neutral position. In my question, I meant how is 1:1 significantly better than pointer controls for an FPS.

I don't know about significantly better, but it's different, and those differences might make for a better or worse experience depending on the type of game. Perhaps one improvement might be independent detection of rotation vs panning of the camera, distinguishing between those, which I don't think the wiimote pointer output provides for. The other big difference I guess is just the different relationship between controller and screen in each case...in the pointer case there's a strong relationship, it's like a lightgun, in the case of that sixsense stuff, there's no relationship really, it's abstracted away a bit. I don't think that's better or worse or whatever, I think that is totally dependent on what suits a game.