i don't think we can be friends.mentalfloss said:I think you will begin to see Sony gravitate their next generation toward the use of Move and away from dual analog.
i don't think we can be friends.mentalfloss said:I think you will begin to see Sony gravitate their next generation toward the use of Move and away from dual analog.
Proelite said:I agree. If his information is true, then it tells a lot about how the PS4 is going to look like.
btkadams said:i don't think we can be friends.
mentalfloss said:Sorry, but it makes a lot of business sense for them.
Microsoft is already beginning the same process with Kinect.
They're both trying to emulate the peak of Nintendo's Wii success.
What? Circe '96 maybe."Of course, we wanted to offer better visuals. That's the 'gene' of PlayStation.
Proelite said:HD consoles have combined to outsell the wii by 20% and is gaining traction while the Wii is fading. HD games have made MUCH more revenue than Wii games. MS and Sony sees opportunity for some extra revenue in the casual market, but they will do nothing to risk the overwhelming larger source of revenue in the hardcore market.
Proelite said:HD consoles have combined to outsell the wii by 20% and is gaining traction while the Wii is fading. HD games have made MUCH more revenue than Wii games. MS and Sony sees opportunity for some extra revenue in the casual market, but they will do nothing to risk the overwhelming larger source of revenue in the hardcore market. MS and Sony will absolutely see to that the hardcore is served first for their next generation consoles.
mentalfloss said:Sorry, but it makes a lot of business sense for them.
Microsoft is already beginning the same process with Kinect.
They're both trying to emulate the peak of Nintendo's Wii success, because they already have a stable hardcore fanbase that they believe they won't lose to Wii's successor.
Massa said:That just tells me you're not paying attention to how Sony works with its first party studios and Move. Their biggest release for 2011 has no Move support at all.
Indyana said:The target will be to expand the gaming population and to try to design games for women.
No.design games for women.
StevieP said:Source, please.
Thus goes round and round but at the moment I agree. Devs seem to be getting up to speed with CELL and being able to carry tools and processes across to PS4 would be attractive to them.theBishop said:Unless Microsoft and Sony go straight-up AMD64 with their CPUs, I don't see where they can go other than some riff on the Cell approach. There hasn't been much movement on the Gigahertz side in a while. Massively concurrent CPUs are the future.
Proelite said:
mentalfloss said:Yep. Until MS and Sony branch out, they will both continue to eat at each other's profit margin while Nintendo runs away with their money when Wii U comes out. Otherwise, they will essentially be cancelling each other out while Wii U's profits balloon past them like this gen.
MS is beginning the transition this year because they recognize that they cannot remain stagnatn. Sony has about another 1 - 2 years to continue with the same market before they shift gears with PS4.
Good for them and good for the industry.
JaseC said:It's practically impossible to quantify how many "gaming PCs" are out there.
StevieP said:My PC is like 50x more powerful than both consoles. The games I play on it, maxed out at 1080p, do not look 50x better. What's your point?
Yaska said:As far as I know, SCEE folks usually don't know a thing about anything that SCEJ or SCEA does. Seeing as the console is developed usually by SCEJ, we shouldn't worry about what some random SCEE guy says.
Buckethead said:They know nothing in Europe.
Averon said:I seriously doubt anyone outside of SCEJ, and maybe a select few in SCEA, knows anything about the PS4.
mrklaw said:Thus goes round and round but at the moment I agree. Devs seem to be getting up to speed with CELL and being able to carry tools and processes across to PS4 would be attractive to them.
Wonder how many SPUs they could get on a modern die - 32?
okenny said:You have to be clear at what you measure when you say "X times better". Here's a little experiment:
Let's use the template: "- FEATURE: Current Gen (Next Gen) [quantified increase]
Xbox 360 => Xbox 720
- CPU Clock: 3.2 GHz (5 GHz) [156%]
- CPU Cores/Threads: 3/6 (6/24) [400%]
- Memory Bandwidth: 22 GB/s (200 GB/s) [909%]
- Memory Size: 512 MB (8192 MB) [1600%]
- GPU Clock: 500 MHz (2000 MHz) [400%]
- GPU Cores: 48 (1024) [2133%]
Needless to say, there would be few things that would have problems running at 1080p at 60 fps with next gen specs like above but nowhere do you see anything 5000% (50x) better. The reason is because people tend to talk about the cumulative increase rather than the improvements made on a feature by feature level.
Proelite said:Shift gears, not shift market. I don't think Sony or MS would prioritize casuals over the hardcore gamer. That seems so risky, as for a lot of casuals, gaming itself is a big fad.
mentalfloss said:No, not at all. At this point the greater risk as always been to sell at a loss and hope for revenue down the road to translate into profits.
That hasn't really happened for Sony or Microsoft.
Proelite said:That's a horrible graph to use in more ways than one.
Because more than half of Nintendo's income is pre-wii, and you really can't tell by the chart how much of the income come from games sold to casuals. I don't see any thing from the chart that tells me the casual market is where companies should focus their efforts on.mentalfloss said:Why?
Proelite said:Because more than half of Nintendo's income is pre-wii, and you really can't tell by the chart how much of the income come from games sold to casuals. I don't see any thing from the chart that tells me the casual market is where companies should focus their efforts on.
I don't think income made in a certain market is a good measurement of of healthy a market is. MS and Sony needs to take advantage of a hardcore market without doing stupid shit that make them lose money, i.e. PS3 and RROD.
mentalfloss said:Like I said, this isn't necessarily about casual versus hardcore. It's mostly about making a highly-spec'd out machine that doesn't make a profit until 3 years in the console cycle. That's mistake #1, and that's what this thread is about.
The Move and Kinect, must also come down in price in order to have the same explosive profit that Nintendo had with Wii. But it's clear that MS and Sony will continue to branch out with their next consoles to get a piece of that market.
Again:
1.) It won't be an exuberantly spec'd, high cost machine
2.) They will need casuals in addition to the hardcore
That's the formula to a sustainable profit.
Proelite said:They definitely can make a really powerful machine that offers a giant jump in power from the PS3 / 360, larger than the previous jump in raw power, at $399 and still have room left to make $25-$50. I predict than a $200-$300 Fusion Mark 2 chip is going to be a beast compared to the mid-tier stuff currently available for the PC, which are themselves a HUGE jump for 360 / PS3.
Proelite said:I predict than a $200-$300 Fusion Mark 2 chip is going to be a beast compared to the mid-tier stuff currently available for the PC, which are themselves a HUGE jump for 360 / PS3.
StevieP said:What??
AMD's Trinity chip (which would be what you call Fusion MK2) is using midrange Evergreen GPUs as their foundation (aka 400ishSPU parts of today, such as the AMD 6570). And those are releasing in the second half of 2012. If the console manufacturers are looking to release late 2013, this is a best case scenario for them, and that's if GF/TSMC can do it on time. That's not to say that a 6570 wouldn't obliterate RSX, for example, but these are not the Jedi's you and most others are looking for.
Intel's Larrabee GPU will finally go into commercial production next year, but not as a graphics processor. Instead, the part will make its debut in a 50-core incarnation fabbed on Intel's 22nm
Proelite said:Won't Trinity cost like $50-$100 only, seeing ILano's are currently $70ish.
The only thing that I would put my money on is a chip that can do DX12. It can cost anything. Although $100 CPU+GPU is not really build for a 10 year life cycle, but rather paving the way for incremental yearly revisions like Apple. Which I would be fine with to be honest.StevieP said:Now you're getting it. An SOI from AMD that is customized and costs about $100 is all but confirmed to be what MS will be using in the next Xbox.
You can do that without going full casual.mentalfloss said:Of course not. The PS3 is not the PS4.
Microsoft is trying to ease into that transition now with Kinect. Sony will begin that transition in the next couple of years to coincide with their next platform release and the new market they're trying to capture.
It makes sense.
Both hardware manufacturers just want to be as profitable as Nintendo was in 2008.
mckmas8808 said:You can do that without going full casual.
Although $100 CPU+GPU is not really build for a 10 year life cycle
StevieP said:Now you're getting it. An SOI from AMD that is customized and costs about $100 is all but confirmed to be what MS will be using in the next Xbox. Who knows what Sony will do - though many of their statements indicate similar. It will be a jump, but not a massive one, to the next gen machines.
StevieP said:What??
AMD's Trinity chip (which would be what you call Fusion MK2) is using midrange Evergreen GPUs as their foundation (aka 400ishSPU parts of today, such as the AMD 6570). And those are releasing in the second half of 2012. If the console manufacturers are looking to release late 2013, this is a best case scenario for them, and that's if GF/TSMC can do it on time. That's not to say that a 6570 wouldn't obliterate RSX, for example, but these are not the Jedi's you and most others are looking for.
cpp_is_king said:ok, i'm a developer.
mentalfloss said:And this is a perfectly sensible strategy that will allow for a nice blend of casual and hardcore games. Unless you're a tech-geek, this is great news for gamers.
So explain how 3 or 4 GBs of RAM in the PS4 alone would not destroy anything that's made on the PS3.
So you think 4 GBs in the PS4 that could do DX 11 or 12 (like) graphics effects would amount to diminishing returns? Really?
mckmas8808 said:So explain how 3 or 4 GBs of RAM in the PS4 alone would not destroy anything that's made on the PS3.
mentalfloss said:Diminishing returns.
mckmas8808 said:So you think 4 GBs in the PS4 that could do DX 11 or 12 (like) graphics effects would amount to diminishing returns? Really?
Proelite said:Okay, did some research on AMD's road map. I do not think they will use the stock Trinity, as the card on their is DX11 compliant and it will be 32 nm only. I am think a 28 nm custom chip using 4 enhanced bulldozers + DX12 chip is something that MS would be willing to spend money on. i.e ~$200 in order to get that DX12/latest graphical technology bullet point in. They'll still be making a killing off each console sold at $400.
WUT.mentalfloss said:Don't forget to add in the cost of Move remotes.
Proelite said:Okay, did some research on AMD's road map. I do not think they will use the stock Trinity, as the card on their is DX11 compliant and it will be 32 nm only. I am think a 28 nm custom chip using 4 enhanced bulldozers + DX12 chip is something that MS would be willing to spend money on. i.e ~$200. They'll still be making a killing off each console sold at $400.