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[Sickboy007]

Another vote for Emily from Deadly Premonition. The strangely believable relationship between her and York is the best thing of the game.

 

[DragonGirl]

Like I said, these aren't rules. But for every society like the Vikings, there are numerous others that weren't like that at all. Between societies in which only females fought, both fought, and only males fought, more are in the latter category than either of the other two. Does this make it a natural trait? I don't know, I'm not well schooled in that particular area of however-many overlapping sciences and psychologies one would need to be an expert in to even begin to answer it - but I think it does, at the very least, suggest that this certainly could be the case. And perhaps parental issues aren't often relevant to computer games but A. That doesn't mean it never will or that it should be off-bounds as a result and B. that's not really what you were asking anyway.

Re: the "man with boobs" thing, I was talking in a societal sense. The societies in which games inhabit do tend to have some idea of differences between sexes, whether that's a reasonable reflection of our society or not. So, to answer your other question, do female characters need feminine qualities to be a "real woman", the answer is a definite "no" but I think that, if a game (and we're talking nominally about games here, but this discussion is absolutely as relevant to every other form of storytelling - we just happen to be on GAF) does it, it should have a reason.

An example: I don't know if you're a fan or familiar with it, but I think The West Wing does an incredible job of having complex female characters. It's a show where almost every single character is, in some way, utterly brilliant and the best in their respective fields in many cases - a reflection of the setting I think; I'm not saying all 'strong women' (or men) need to be some sort of genius to be seen as strong, they just happen to be in the West Wing. How Sorkin went about characterising the characters is fascinating to me - you have a character like CJ, who is the press secretary. She's not considered particularly good looking (in fact, her unusually tall height is a reoccurring joke in the series). She commands a lot of respect in the other-wise mostly male workforce at the Whitehouse - but "retains" (and I begrudge using that word, for hopefully obvious reasons) her femininity. That is, she playfully flirts with the guys without ever making herself seem like an object. When a group of accapella singers come in at Christmas from Yale, she gets together with the other females in the office to coo about them. Compare this to another high-power female in the show, Nancy - she's the president's National Security Advisor (and is also a doctor and, to add an extra hint of 'in-an-unusual-position', also black) - she lacks almost all of those traits that I just attributed to 'femininity' and plays a lot rougher than CJ does with the other guys. She is what I would call a "guy with boobs" - BUT I like to think Sorkin did this intentionally, as a criticism (or perhaps not?) of the US military, suggesting that the only way a women can do well and progress within it is by forgoing that which is traditionally seen as feminine and embracing that which is seen as masculine. Or perhaps Nancy didn't "give up" anything, and this is how she is but that, nontheless, is still the reason she's risen to the massive heights she is, in an organisation that has, fairly or not, a reputation for sexism at its higher ranks.

I think both characters and interesting and equally "valid" and "real women" - in fact, here I certainly think that the writer's choice of what traits to apply more emphatically to one character over another adds an extra layer to the story that would be absent without out.

So, the short answer is that you can have characters to whom those traits can apply, to both men and women. You can have characters where this isn't the case, too, and they too can be interesting and complex.

What prompted me to say what I said though, re "men with boobs" was that you can a lot of computer games where you only get women like Nancy if they want a strong women. In The West Wing I think they had a really good application of it, but if all the women were like Nancy, it'd have made no sense and I think the story telling would have suffered as a result.

Now that, is a more interesting answer, and what I've been aiming for.

 

[IntelliHeath]

http://i.imgur.com/VgoO8.jpg

who is she?

http://i.imgur.com/E030f.gif

*thumb up to people who pick her*

Define "this generation" with years please?

 

[bhlaab]

That seems to be slowly becoming the definition of a "strong female" in games. Why a strong female can't also be feminine is beyond me.

Because "feminine" and "masculine" are fake ideas that perpetuate the patriarchy

 

[Zoramon089]

Because "feminine" and "masculine" are fake ideas that perpetuate the patriarchy

They're not fake ideas. People who make this claim, for some reason, seem to ignore that women and men are different in more aspects than just appearance

 

[dralla]

The Mass Effect series. Liara, Ashley, Miranda, Shepard, Tali

 

[bhlaab]

They're not fake ideas. People who make this claim, for some reason, seem to ignore that women and men are different in more aspects than just appearance

Okay, well if they ever make Ovulation: The Game then give me a call, but until then I continue to disagree that tight clothing and arching your back are genetic dispositions

 

[Ratrat]

http://i.imgur.com/VgoO8.jpg

who is she?

http://i.imgur.com/E030f.gif

*thumb up to people who pick her*

Define "this generation" with years please?

Estelle from Trails in the Sky.

 

[Zoramon089]

Okay, well if they ever make Ovulation: The Game then give me a call, but until then I continue to disagree that tight clothing and arching your back are genetic dispositions

I didn't say that they were...but men and women are biologically different. Different hormone levels play a part in it and that's an undeniable FACT. How this actually manifests in terms of appearance, personality, disposition, etc is another story but acting like there aren't differences is foolish

 

[bhlaab]

I didn't say that they were...but men and women are biologically different. Different hormone levels play a part in it and that's an undeniable FACT. How this actually manifests in terms of appearance, personality, disposition, etc is another story but acting like there aren't differences is foolish

How this actually manifests in terms of appearance, personality, disposition, etc is another story. It's actually a novella called "Very Little" written by a man named Bordering Eugenics

 

[Forkball]

Lulz at everyone posting half naked girls. Some are trolling (bravo), but some think since they don't have a shower scene in the game they aren't sexualized. Nariko? Really? She is like 67% naked. Even characters like Lyn from FE are still sexualized. That's a pretty high cut in her tunic. It's a bit more subtle than others, but it's still meant to be sexy.

 

[bhlaab]

Lulz at everyone posting half naked girls. Some are trolling (bravo), but some think since they don't have a shower scene in the game they aren't sexualized. Nariko? Really? She is like 67% naked. Even characters like Lyn from FE are still sexualized. That's a pretty high cut in her tunic. It's a bit more subtle than others, but it's still meant to be sexy.

Yeah but maybe she's a girl who just happens to be sexy? I mean, ignore the fact that she was drawn by a man and for a presumed male audience maybe it's all just one big crazy coincidence! Some women wear thong bikinis all the time in real life, too! Pretty misogynyst of you to deny women the right to be objects if they want to be (I've decided that they do)

 

[Zoramon089]

Lulz at everyone posting half naked girls. Some are trolling (bravo), but some think since they don't have a shower scene in the game they aren't sexualized. Nariko? Really? She is like 67% naked. Even characters like Lyn from FE are still sexualized. That's a pretty high cut in her tunic. It's a bit more subtle than others, but it's still meant to be sexy.

Kratos in GoW shows more skin than Nariko! He wears basically a loincloth! Come on!

This topic is going in circles. Showing skin =/= sexualized, especially not when a lot of the characters in Heavenly Sword also wear equally stupid revealing outfits, men and women alike

Can someone explain why guys showing skin =/= sexualized but women showing skin is? How we have characters like Kratos from GoW, Vaan from FFXII, and the Prince in PoP also showing skin and no one says anything about them. Or why it's okay for guys to be idealized in terms of appearance without that compromising their strength as a character but for women you can't have both? I'm sure this has been gone over plenty of times in this topic but I need someone to explain it to me again because I must not have understood the previous explanations

 

[A Black Falcon]

Kratos in GoW shows more skin than Nariko! He wears basically a loincloth! Come on!

This topic is going in circles. Showing skin =/= sexualized, especially not when a lot of the characters in Heavenly Sword also wear equally stupid revealing outfits, men and women alike

Can someone explain why guys showing skin =/= sexualized but women showing skin is? How we have characters like Kratos from GoW, Vaan from FFXII, and the Prince in PoP also showing skin and no one says anything about them. Or why it's okay for guys to be idealized in terms of appearance without that compromising their strength as a character but for women you can't have both? I'm sure this has been gone over plenty of times in this topic but I need someone to explain it to me again because I must not have understood the previous explanations

While there are several reasons for this, I would say that sexism actually explains part of it. It's because of two things, first that female sexuality has historically been suppressed socially compared to male sexuality. This goes back a long way -- for instance, in classical Greece, male sexuality was completely accepted. The male form was considered the ideal, and in art for instance male nudes were extremely common. Female nudity, though, was not considered okay. So classical Greek statues of women are almost always clothed. Sometimes they used transparent clothing, to show the body underneath the clothes, but it's nothing like with men. This also reflected women's restricted role in society in most classical Greek cities, of course. Like, in Athens women couldn't leave the home unless they were with other people (but it's entirely for their own safety of course!).

While in some ways today the female is considered the ideal artistic model now, instead of the male, that sexism that accepts male nudity, and physical activity, but not female. Of course, because of the degree of sexism in art aimed at women today I do think that some of that attention is reasonable, but yes, I do think you're somewhat right there -- there is an imbalance in society about the amount of skin that can be bared by each gender without it causing a reaction against it, certainly. As I said, I do think that it's somewhat justified with how badly oppressed women have been in society (overdone sexualization like many videogame characters probably is not exactly a positive...), but still, yes, in an equal society people not complaining about those male characters you mention would also not be complaining about those female ones.


The second reason is a simpler one -- a lot of the time the female characters ARE sexualized more. Not always, but very often, when you compare the male and female characters in a game, the female ones are the more sexualized. Oh, and of course, as far as character actions go, this is usually very true as well, regardless of how the character design itself is.

 

[bhlaab]

Kratos in GoW shows more skin than Nariko! He wears basically a loincloth! Come on!

This topic is going in circles. Showing skin =/= sexualized, especially not when a lot of the characters in Heavenly Sword also wear equally stupid revealing outfits, men and women alike

Can someone explain why guys showing skin =/= sexualized but women showing skin is? How we have characters like Kratos from GoW, Vaan from FFXII, and the Prince in PoP also showing skin and no one says anything about them. Or why it's okay for guys to be idealized in terms of appearance without that compromising their strength as a character but for women you can't have both? I'm sure this has been gone over plenty of times in this topic but I need someone to explain it to me again because I must not have understood the previous explanations

The concept of the male gaze. This is the presumption that your audience is male, and therefore male characters come pre-loaded with empathy ("i wish i was that guy") while female characters come pre-loaded as an object of observation ("i wish i could fuck her")

Male characters are idealized because you're supposed to think of them as better versions of you. Female characters are idealized because you're supposed to look at them as an Other and judge them. Even when the protagonist is a female, they exist to be looked at and not identified with-- in fact, playing as a female character in a video game is still considered a novelty because they are the Other.

 

[DragonGirl]

Just to lay it out for further reference, sexualized, for the purpose of this discussion, does not mean sexy. Most game characters are sexy, show off a physical ideal whether male or female. Sexualization refers specifically to reducing a person to their body parts, often exaggerating those body parts. Anything else: like personality (if it's even there) is secondary or irrelevant.

That's how I see the term being used in this thread. Of course, where you draw the line between a sexualized character and a sexy character is subjective.

 

[AngelSoldier]

Oh, what the shit. Maybe I passed over it, maybe I'm wrong, but nobody posted Terra(Tina) or Celes from FF VI ? Geeeeeez. Both women are (WAY)strong and far too pixelated to be sexy lol.

Art, incoming !

Terra (Tina)

Celes (Note that the artist used her outfit from OFFICIAL ART, not the in-game outfit.)

 

[Mar]

This topic is going in circles. Showing skin =/= sexualized

Indeed, though it depends on the context.

Whipping out some boobs does not necessarily mean the individual is being sexualised nor being taken advantage of. For instance, in horror, nudity is often used as a conduit to heighten empathy from creator to viewer. Take the old shower scene for example. The act of getting nude here helps to communicate a feeling of innocence in the face of oncoming violence, and exposure and defencelessness. Humans can easily understand and empathise the feeling of vulnerability while naked.

I discuss this very topic on Digital Romance Lab, with of course, the caveat that most nudity in film and video games is in fact just to titillate. But there are valid reasons for the approach.

 

[Velti]

Close thread now.

Eeee! She's my new Samus. And she can never be ruined, because they'll probably never make a game with her again! She's so pretty and cool. ...and I like that name.

 

[Anasui Kishibe]

 

[Uchip]

Terra (Tina)

Celes

pretty sure SNES is not "this gen"

 

[Laughing Banana]

Strong (not sexualized) = acting like men, dressed like man, or appear like men?

A woman is rescued by a man = sexualized? A woman does not covered by thick armor from head to toe = sexualized? A woman acting like a 'normal' woman in dire circumstances = sexualized?

What, does a woman in video game needs to pick up a sword or gun and starts killing stuff before people stops calling them sexualized?

Next time you know if Naughty Dog shows a scene of Elena cooking something for Drake everyone will scream bloody murder. And fuck she even gets herself kidnapped and needs rescuing at some point during the series so that means she's disqualified too, yeah?

I am just saying that the folks who are so quick to jump into conclusions like that are 'sexualizing' the characters themselves a lot more than the designers who built the characters.

 

[FinalxBoss]

Forgive me if this has been mentioned already, but why can't a character be both strong and sexy? Does showing some skin or displaying some sort of sex appeal automatically make a character weaker than someone who doesn't? Personally I'd choose bayonetta as a one of the strongest female characters this gen, because she embraces her sexuality as a form of strength instead of a source of shame.

 

[AngelSoldier]

pretty sure SNES is not "this gen"

I am an Idiot. XD

My mistake, I played it "this gen" but that doesn't mean it was made this gen. Ah. ._.

 

[Platy]

And the prize for "Bigest surprise for most strong non sexualized female character this gen" GOES TO ....

That storybook story mixed with the "wtf?!" ending for mario galaxy 1 .... no weak character would make the choice she made at that ending

...and ..she is from the MARIO franchise!!

I mean .. the closest we have after that is like ... Birdo in Captain Rainbow =P

 

[DragonGirl]

Strong (not sexualized) = acting like men, dressed like man, or appear like men?

A woman is rescued by a man = sexualized? A woman does not covered by thick armor from head to toe = sexualized? A woman acting like a 'normal' woman in dire circumstances = sexualized?

What, does a woman in video game needs to pick up a sword or gun and starts killing stuff before people stops calling them sexualized?

Next time you know if Naughty Dog shows a scene of Elena cooking something for Drake everyone will scream bloody murder. And fuck she even gets herself kidnapped and needs rescuing at some point during the series so that means she's disqualified too, yeah?

I am just saying that the folks who are so quick to jump into conclusions like that are 'sexualizing' the characters themselves a lot more than the designers who built the characters.

I don't think so. A character being sexualized is just one characteristic and doesn't cover what you listed.

Rescued by a Man - nothing to do with sexualization. Issue taken here is one of historical portrayal of women: delicate, weak, needing protection

How she's dressed - can be a sexualizing factor if her outfit is egregiously displaying her sexual attributes, especially in an inappropriate environment/situation. If she's a prostitute, that's one thing, but the iron pasty and steel thong ensemble isn't going to do much for her in battle.

Woman acting like a normal woman in dire situation - women are individuals, just like anyone else. An -ism comes into play (sexism, racism, etc) when individuals have no identity and are painted with the assumptions directed at the group. How women have been traditionally portrayed is guilty of this. "She acted that way because she's a woman and all women act that way." Oh really?

"What, does a woman in video game needs to pick up a sword or gun and starts killing stuff before people stops calling them sexualized?" - No, and the two aren't really related. Did anyone actually say this?

 

[Spirit Icana]

Mute from Ar tonelico III.

 

[Izayoi]

Mute from Ar tonelico III.

:lol

 

[bhlaab]

Forgive me if this has been mentioned already, but why can't a character be both strong and sexy? Does showing some skin or displaying some sort of sex appeal automatically make a character weaker than someone who doesn't? Personally I'd choose bayonetta as a one of the strongest female characters this gen, because she embraces her sexuality as a form of strength instead of a source of shame.

here is a link
and text from that link

http://gomakemeasandwich.wordpress.com/2011/06/03/bayonetta-and-the-male-gaze/

If Bayonetta were an actual person, then it would make sense to proclaim that her sexuality is a choice and that she’s an empowering female figure. But she’s not a real woman. Everything about her was designed to be sexually appealing by a man who in his own words thinks that all women should strive to be as sexual as Bayonetta. These are not the words of someone who was looking to create a character that would turn stereotypes on their head, nor are they the words of someone who is genuinely interested in creating empowering female characters. Kamiya’s sole concern in creating Bayonetta was to create an action character who was his ideal woman and designing her for maximum sex-appeal for the straight male viewer.

It all comes back to the male gaze. When looking at fictional characters like Bayonetta, you can’t disregard the creator. It’s not enough to say that she embraces her sexuality, because at no point did Bayonetta ever get to make a choice. Her creators made the choices for her. So I totally agree with Jonathan Holmes in his assessment of Bayonetta:

she’s an empty shell of a character; a shell made from here creators’ sexual fantasies, negative stereotypes, and misconceived notions of the female gender.

As for the people who claim you are somehow sexist or slut-shaming when you hate on Bayonetta, the same point applies. Bayonetta is not a person with agency, she’s a fictional creation devoid of any free will or choice. It is not slut-shaming to decry Bayonetta as a hollow stereotype whose sexuality is nothing more than a harmful perpetuation of the stereotypes surrounding female sexuality. It is a judgement on the designers and writers who created her to be what she is. Bayonetta is not for women, plain and simple. She is designed by men for men.

 

[Exclamation-One]

 

[FinalxBoss]

here is a link
and text from that link

http://gomakemeasandwich.wordpress.com/2011/06/03/bayonetta-and-the-male-gaze/

If Bayonetta were an actual person, then it would make sense to proclaim that her sexuality is a choice and that she’s an empowering female figure. But she’s not a real woman. Everything about her was designed to be sexually appealing by a man who in his own words thinks that all women should strive to be as sexual as Bayonetta. These are not the words of someone who was looking to create a character that would turn stereotypes on their head, nor are they the words of someone who is genuinely interested in creating empowering female characters. Kamiya’s sole concern in creating Bayonetta was to create an action character who was his ideal woman and designing her for maximum sex-appeal for the straight male viewer.

It all comes back to the male gaze. When looking at fictional characters like Bayonetta, you can’t disregard the creator. It’s not enough to say that she embraces her sexuality, because at no point did Bayonetta ever get to make a choice. Her creators made the choices for her. So I totally agree with Jonathan Holmes in his assessment of Bayonetta:

she’s an empty shell of a character; a shell made from here creators’ sexual fantasies, negative stereotypes, and misconceived notions of the female gender.

As for the people who claim you are somehow sexist or slut-shaming when you hate on Bayonetta, the same point applies. Bayonetta is not a person with agency, she’s a fictional creation devoid of any free will or choice. It is not slut-shaming to decry Bayonetta as a hollow stereotype whose sexuality is nothing more than a harmful perpetuation of the stereotypes surrounding female sexuality. It is a judgement on the designers and writers who created her to be what she is. Bayonetta is not for women, plain and simple. She is designed by men for men.

I do agree that Bayonetta's personality is a product of Kamiya's mind and whatever personality she has stems directly from that. However, I don't view her as the same way as the article's writer. I personally see the game as more of a satire. Yes she was very sexualized but the way she carried felt more like she was using that appeal in a taunting manner. I feel that the character does a good job of pointing out the double standard that exists right now, the notion that a woman shouldn't be as sexually aggressive or brash as a man. Is is OK for a characters like Dante, Kratos or the dozens of other shirt-less six-packed male characters to act as sexy as they want but wrong when a female character does so? And if so why? What makes them so different besides gender? I really don't want to side track the thread, I just don't see why Bayonetta can't be empowering simply because she offers some eye candy for her audience.

 

[toddhunter]

Easy winner for me:

If not her..the game has plenty of other choices.

 

[El Sloth]

http://images.wikia.com/castlevania/images/2/27/OoE_Shanoa.jpg[/IMG

Close thread now.[/QUOTE]
Shanoa was pretty awesome.

 

[Ostinatto]

THAT GIRL IS REALLY REALLY TOUGH

 

[Metal Gear?!]

Can't think of a single thing she does or says that makes her a strong female lead. She is just female for the sake of eye candy.

Shanoa fights corrupt male authority figures and goes on a literal suicide mission to kill Dracula knowing that her only means of defeating him will end her life. She doesn't get a lot of lines but it's the type of game where strength is conveyed via actions rather than dialogue.

Still, open-back high-cut dress and hookerboots. Geez.

 

[Mr_Zombie]

Everything about her was designed to be sexually appealing by a man who in his own words thinks that all women should strive to be as sexual as Bayonetta. (...) She is designed by men for men.

Not that I disagree with you on the overall "male gaze" thing, but according to Wikipedia Bayonetta was designed by a women - Mari Shimazaki. Kamiya and the team contributed to the design of course, but the overall design was not done by men.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayonetta_(character)#Conception_and_design

It seems that whoever wrote that article didn't do his/her homework properly and just found it obvious that only man could portrait women in such a way.

 

[Muchi Muchi Pink]

Does Bayonetta count? She may be oversexualized but she's pretty strong (and awesome).

I say: Yes.

Also a vote for Shanoa, because it's also the best Castlevania EVER.

 

[McBradders]

FemShep is one of the strongest, non-sexualised (fan 'art' excluded) characters for any video game ever, simply because unlike so many other female characters, she does not suffer from the deliberately 'female' focused writing of men trying to write a character to a very specific set of characteristics (and doing a poor job of it).

A vast majority of FemShep's dialogue is exactly the same as Male Shepard. Sharing the same script allows for character neutrality, as FemShep is not written to speak 'like a woman' but instead like a normal person.

This is likely why so many people gravitate towards FemShep. She possesses all the heroic and strong qualities that Commander Shepard is supposed to, and none of the fragility and deliberate femininity usually imposed on other 'female' leads.

Such a good post.

 

[Carcetti]

Commander Shepard. This post by Eatchildren says it how I wanted to say it.

FemShep is one of the strongest, non-sexualised (fan 'art' excluded) characters for any video game ever, simply because unlike so many other female characters, she does not suffer from the deliberately 'female' focused writing of men trying to write a character to a very specific set of characteristics (and doing a poor job of it).

A vast majority of FemShep's dialogue is exactly the same as Male Shepard. Sharing the same script allows for character neutrality, as FemShep is not written to speak 'like a woman' but instead like a normal person.

This is likely why so many people gravitate towards FemShep. She possesses all the heroic and strong qualities that Commander Shepard is supposed to, and none of the fragility and deliberate femininity usually imposed on other 'female' leads.

Shepard is an awesome military commander, the toughest human in galaxy, a resurrected cyborg and yeah, a believable woman.

Other goods ones are Chell (kinda cheap but you can't fail with no dialogue) and Alyx. Valve seems to do a good job, as both the female leads from Left 4 Dead Series aren't vapid bikini babes either.

 

[McBradders]

Zoe from Left 4 Dead is also a particular favourite of mine. She is pure awesome from start to finish. Especially when the "God is dead" dialog is triggered :3

 

[thelurkinghorror]

Should have been the first post. Imho the most believable strong female character created so far.

a w e s o m e

 

[kevinski]

Alyx Vance (HL2) and Emily Wyatt (Deadly Premonition).

 

[red731]

Alyx Vance (HL2) and Emily Wyatt (Deadly Premonition).

Just went to post Alyx...

 

[Typographenia]

ALXY VAN- oh, nevermind.

http://www.cinepremiere.com.mx/files/u18/HeatherMason.jpg

THAT GIRL IS REALLY REALLY TOUGH

You couldn't have picked a worse picture for her. : P
Also, this generation!

Spoiler

(HD collections don't count, I don't care what everyone else says! lol)

 

[DragonGirl]

Not that I disagree with you on the overall "male gaze" thing, but according to Wikipedia Bayonetta was designed by a women - Mari Shimazaki. Kamiya and the team contributed to the design of course, but the overall design was not done by men.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayonetta_(character)#Conception_and_design

It seems that whoever wrote that article didn't do his/her homework properly and just found it obvious that only man could portrait women in such a way.

Irrelevant. Women can be as sexist towards other women as men are, and if you happen to be working in a male dominated industry with all of the pressures that implies, chances are you're going to cater to those whims. A woman's involvement with the design of Bayonetta makes no difference to the character being a fetish for guys who like their fu** puppets actiony.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

I've played enough games and MMO's with women to know they love the tits and midriff as much as blokes do.

 

[RyL]

A female character, regardless of outward appearance should still be able to be described as 'strong'. The idea that strong women must be wearing plain clothing, or be physically average is absurd, and if taken at a literal value - then this list will only be alyx, chell, and other plain jane females that are inductive of that design choice, regardless of their actual character traits.

It's very difficult to debate this issue without sounding one-sided. I didn't mean to say that all strong women have to be your average diffident, mousy wallflower. Quite the opposite actually. Look at my example, Meche from Grim Fandango. She is/was very sophisticated, down to earth, hard working, humorous and a reasonable person, full of wit and dry sarcastic remarks. She's also very fashion-conscious and looked very feminine, kinda sexy and she achieved all this without "bimbo clothes" and without showing "the bones".

check out this video

The problem is that the vast majority of female videogame characters are basically all the same, empty sexual fantasies of some dudes. (tbh. most videogame characters regardless of the gender are rather shallow)

Women in videogames are treated as a homogenous group, Period. Ok, everyone has his own subjective idea what a strong woman is but it's cringeworthy if someones posts the most blatant "man fantasies".

(see gomakemeasandwich)


// fair point about Bonnie from RDR, forgot about her

 

[Xilium]

I do agree that Bayonetta's personality is a product of Kamiya's mind and whatever personality she has stems directly from that. However, I don't view her as the same way as the article's writer. I personally see the game as more of a satire. Yes she was very sexualized but the way she carried felt more like she was using that appeal in a taunting manner. I feel that the character does a good job of pointing out the double standard that exists right now, the notion that a woman shouldn't be as sexually aggressive or brash as a man. Is is OK for a characters like Dante, Kratos or the dozens of other shirt-less six-packed male characters to act as sexy as they want but wrong when a female character does so? And if so why? What makes them so different besides gender? I really don't want to side track the thread, I just don't see why Bayonetta can't be empowering simply because she offers some eye candy for her audience.

His most likely answer from earlier:

The concept of the male gaze. This is the presumption that your audience is male, and therefore male characters come pre-loaded with empathy ("i wish i was that guy") while female characters come pre-loaded as an object of observation ("i wish i could fuck her")

Male characters are idealized because you're supposed to think of them as better versions of you. Female characters are idealized because you're supposed to look at them as an Other and judge them. Even when the protagonist is a female, they exist to be looked at and not identified with-- in fact, playing as a female character in a video game is still considered a novelty because they are the Other.

Both the video game demographic (at least, the types of games we are talking about here. Core games if you will) and their development staff are very heavily male dominated, so it is only natural that most games are going to focus on appealing to men over women.

I don't think it is any secret that when it comes to visual media and written fiction that the audience, more often than not - consciously or unconsciously, want to see or envision beautiful and/or idealistic main characters. So I don't disagree with what you said but I don't understand why this issue is brought up with games as if it's some new phenomenon. If games were a female dominated media, we would have the reverse effect of the female being the empathetic character and the males being the objects but what difference does it make? In both cases, it's still just a bunch of visually appealing people going around fulfilling the player's fantasies. I think the reasoning behind them being visually appealing is irrelevant.

Personalities, dialog, and actions of a character I think are all things you can have a discussion about and use to make more interesting characters, but the visual representation of those characters is pretty much set in stone. Some representation are more extreme than others but if that isn't what you want to see, then the game wasn't made for you so don't play it.

 

[The Lamonster]

Bulletstorm girl was strong and not sexualized.

 

[Grisby]

Bulletstorm girl was strong and not sexualized.

"I'll kill your dick!"
"What does that even mean?"

I loved Jennifer Hale in that role.