Support NeoGAF

[SolidSnakex]

She's supposed to be in the military in FF13. That doesn't look like something the military would give you. And her FF13-2 armor is impractical. Is there some reason why it couldn't be like this:
[IG]http://www.thejohnsongalleries.com/images/Joan%20of%20Arc.jpg[/IMG]
[IG]http://acelebrationofwomen.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/joan_arc-capture.jpg[/IMG]
[IG]http://www.moddb.com/groups/ancient-weapon-lovers-group/images/lionheart-kings-crusade1#imagebox[/IMG]
[IG]http://www.edwardchee.com/edward_chee/characters_files/JoanOfArc_Final.jpg[/IMG]
[IM]http://tsamurai.pyoko.org/images/397970-83528-joan-of-arc_large.jpg[/IMG]
A woman in full body armor and these pics have feminine touches to them. The armor actually protects too.

It's FF, so most of the time everything is going to be heavily stylized. Lightning also has more armor protection on her in XIII-2 than any other character that i've seen in the game.

 

[Kaltagesta]

I'm not a fan of the implication of this thread. Why 'strong' female characters? I don't think that's a very laudible goal. We should aim for good characters - male, female, strong, weak, funny, serious, whatever. Yhe problem I have with most 'strong' female characters is like they're so often just 'strong guys' with boobs, however apparant they are.

 

[Durante]

She's supposed to be in the military in FF13. That doesn't look like something the military would give you.

It's a fantasy game, not a history game. As long as males and females wear equally improbable battle attire you can just chalk it up to the general setting of the game.

(not that I think that Lightning is a particularly great example of a strong female character)

 

[Foliorum Viridum]

So many people have no idea what makes a strong female character. It's kinda embarrassing to read a lot of this thread.

 

[Varjis]

Another vote for Emma Honeywell. The Last Remnant has some amazing characters and she is my pick for this generation for a strong female.

From the way she treats Rush, to how she acts as a General of Athlum, she is just a great character.

I think I'll start up TLR again before Dark Souls comes out... lol.

 

[DragonGirl]

I'm not a fan of the implication of this thread. Why 'strong' female characters? I don't think that's a very laudible goal. We should aim for good characters - male, female, strong, weak, funny, serious, whatever. Yhe problem I have with most 'strong' female characters is like they're so often just 'strong guys' with boobs, however apparant they are.

Not to pick on you, but I'm going to pick on you. "Strong guys with boobs". What makes them guy-like? What human characteristic do men own the copyright on?

Edit: Also, I agree with the sentiment that the focus should be on good characters. I see the "strong female" as a positive attempt to counter the traditional stereotypes placed on female characters. Unfortunately, social perceptions are not equal, we are still trapped in patriarchal norms, so the focus will remain on countering negative portrayals. Only when we reach cultural equilibrium will we be able to just make good characters with whatever traits.

 

[Kaltagesta]

Not to pick on you, but I'm going to pick on you. "Strong guys with boobs". What makes them guy-like? What human characteristic do men own the copyright on?

Edit: Also, I agree with the sentiment that the focus should be on good characters. I see the "strong female" as a positive attempt to counter the traditional stereotypes placed on female characters. Unfortunately, social perceptions are not equal, we are still trapped in patriarchal norms, so the focus will remain on countering negative portrayals. Only when we reach cultural equilibrium will we be able to just make good characters with whatever traits.

Well none - I don't think there is a single trait that's exclusive to males or females. But unless you're of the opinion that gender is just about what's between your legs, the implication has to be that there are certain traits more common in males than females, and vice versa. They're hard to define in an objective way because of course our ideas of gender are heavily informed by the society in which they're presented. That said, this is equally true for the world's seen in videogames so it's up to the writers to define what is and what isn't more common for one gender or the other (and THEN they're in a position to break those social constructs as and when they need to.)

Edit: it seems that your definition of good characterization appears to be when characters are equal. I disagree with this. Good characters are possible in all societal structures depicted.

 

[Kinyou]

So many people have no idea what makes a strong female character. It's kinda embarrassing to read a lot of this thread.

Thank you for giving us so much insight about what you think a strong female character is.

Because you know, without all your elaborate examples and arguments your post would have been quite useless.

 

[MrWhitefolks]

A female character, regardless of outward appearance should still be able to be described as 'strong'. The idea that strong women must be wearing plain clothing, or be physically average is absurd, and if taken at a literal value - then this list will only be alyx, chell, and other plain jane females that are inductive of that design choice, regardless of their actual character traits.

 

[Trick_GSF]

I do not know who this woman is. But I'd like to put my penis between her breasts.

Spoiler

Elena

 

[DragonGirl]

Well none - I don't think there is a single trait that's exclusive to males or females. But unless you're of the opinion that gender is just about what's between your legs, the implication has to be that there are certain traits more common in males than females, and vice versa. They're hard to define in an objective way because of course our ideas of gender are heavily informed by the society in which they're presented. That said, this is equally true for the world's seen in videogames so it's up to the writers to define what is and what isn't more common for one gender or the other (and THEN they're in a position to break those social constructs as and when they need to.)

Well of course, but what leads you to call certain female characters "men with boobs"? And why? An open question to anyone.

Edit: it seems that your definition of good characterization appears to be when characters are equal. I disagree with this. Good characters are possible in all societal structures depicted.

Incorrect. I'm saying video games do not exist in a vacuum. They reflect the attitudes of the real world. I'm saying female characters are viewed through the lens of the real world and right now, sexism/misogyny is a major issue and female characters will be judged in that light which leads to a positive focus on strong female characters". I'm saying that only when society finally reaches true equal perception of the sexes will this become a non issue and the lens through which we see these characters will change.

 

[Kinyou]

btw. Women have reason to love the heel too

 

[DragonGirl]

A female character, regardless of outward appearance should still be able to be described as 'strong'. The idea that strong women must be wearing plain clothing, or be physically average is absurd, and if taken at a literal value - then this list will only be alyx, chell, and other plain jane females that are inductive of that design choice, regardless of their actual character traits.

Quite correct, but I'd say in this thread "strong" is being used as a catch all term that also includes "not hypersexualized" or overly sexual in portrayal. Sure, what a woman wears should bear little on how she's perceived as a person. But in the real world, that's not how it tends to work, is it?

 

[Barrel Cannon]

I'd be silly not to mention Shepard from Mass Effect

But now for some less obvious ones that people probably haven't mentioned

Seth-Lost Odyssey

Edna Strickland-Back to the Future

Kat-Halo Reach

 

[udivision]

It's kind of weird to see posts like "What, I woman can't be strong and sexy?" when this thread is presented as a counter to "A strong woman has to be sexy too." No one's saying they're mutally exclusive things.

I mean, you don't go saying "What, an RPG can't be a western and good?" in the "RPGs (not western/action/strategy) that you like this gen" thread.

 

[[Nintex]]

There are many females who are just 'there' like the girl from Sin & Punishment 2 and random female NPC's you interact with. Finding an actual 'character' in games is hard let alone finding a 'strong' one.

I don't know about this one, but the most blatant and awkward sexy female characters had to be the girls from Red Alert 3.

 

[Ledsen]

Not to pick on you, but I'm going to pick on you. "Strong guys with boobs". What makes them guy-like? What human characteristic do men own the copyright on?

Edit: Also, I agree with the sentiment that the focus should be on good characters. I see the "strong female" as a positive attempt to counter the traditional stereotypes placed on female characters. Unfortunately, social perceptions are not equal, we are still trapped in patriarchal norms, so the focus will remain on countering negative portrayals. Only when we reach cultural equilibrium will we be able to just make good characters with whatever traits.

They are "guy-like" because they exhibit stereotypical alpha-male behavior and are, in almost every respect, identical to their male counterparts.

 

[MacBosse]

Also from a Relic-made Warhammer 40k title:

Inquisitor Adrastia

Apparently Relic knows how to make believable female characters.

I will always have a hard time taking anyone dressed like that seriously. Woman or man.

 

[charsace]

btw. Women have reason to love the heel too

I see nothing wrong with heels. When you are designing a woman for battle though it looks fucking stupid when they have on stilettos.

 

[NotebookJ2]

I will always have a hard time taking anyone dressed like that seriously. Woman or man.

It's the hat really. Remove it [or get a different one] and it'll be fine.

 

[DragonGirl]

They are "guy-like" because they exhibit stereotypical alpha-male behavior and are, in almost every respect, identical to their male counterparts.

How so? What is guy-like behavior?

 

[Ledsen]

How so? What is guy-like behavior?

I just told you. Stereotypical alpha male behavior.

 

[Bisnic]

Does Jack from ME2 counts? I mean, sure we can romance her, but she's a bald woman with super biotic powers who can easily kill anyone standing in her way and with so many tattoos that you can barely the skin. The only thing sexualized about her might be... the fact she's only wearing pants and some weird bra thing, despite the fact the tattoos nearly hide all the skin? I dunno.

Miranda on the other side...

datass.jpg

 

[Zoramon089]

It's kind of weird to see posts like "What, I woman can't be strong and sexy?" when this thread is presented as a counter to "A strong woman has to be sexy too." No one's saying they're mutally exclusive things.

I mean, you don't go saying "What, an RPG can't be a western and good?" in the "RPGs (not western/action/strategy) that you like this gen" thread.

No, not really. Maybe that was intended but from most of the posts in this topic it seems that if a women is sexy it somehow doesn't allow her to be strong as well. And what's worse, the people complaining about them being "sexualized" ignore that that is mostly a result of the game's art style and the male characters and NPCs also look similarly ridiculous!

For instance, take FFX. If you named Riku or Yuna or Lulu, I bet there'd be people bashing their designs as being sexualized when you have characters like Tidus and Waka who wear outfits just as ridiculous and skin bearing! Not to mention, like the women, these characters all have idealized bodies and are generally attractive as well.

And then there are people who believe that the difference between male and female characters should be nothing but appearance that both genders act exactly the same which is equally ridiclous

 

[fabricated backlash]

Why am I not surprised that this character hasn't gotten a mention yet?

Of Silent Hill: Shattered Memories.

Spoiler

Even in the ending where she remains in complete denial, she's struggled to get to that point. Her struggle isn't an epic war against evil aliens or anything like that, its rather ordinary nature is part of what makes her interesting. The many possibilities created by the psych system make her genuinely multifaceted, while the ghost images establish much of her past, giving the player a solid foundation.

This would be a great example. Tennenbaum from Bioshock would fit the bill as well.

 

[DragonGirl]

I just told you. Stereotypical alpha male behavior.

No you didn't. You you used a phrase for a broad category of undefined behaviors. That's not the answer I'm trying to get here. What specific traits are we talking about here? Is the character authoritative? A bully? Regularly scratches their ass? What makes an "alpha-male"?

 

[Orayn]

I will always have a hard time taking anyone dressed like that seriously. Woman or man.

Everything in the grim darkness of the 41st millenium is ridiculously ornamented, dude. The Imperium puts elaborate stone engravings on their artillery shells for the Emperor's sake.

 

[Sutanreyu]

I think the whole 'sexualized' thing is moot because there will always been that 'sexual' factor there. Some guys dig 'strong' women.

 

[Zen]

What? Did you see the trailer? it sounded like a damn porno she was moaning and grunting so much. Plus the pictures still try and show this "hot" teenage girl.. just bruised up and such.

That's entirely subjective based upon your interpretation.

She wasn't serialized in that trailer because she wasn't overtly sexual or performing sexual acts. Girls often have similar sounds of exertion between intense physical activity and sex due to the similar vocal pitch.

Shocking I know.

 

[walking fiend]

Another vote for Emma Honeywell. The Last Remnant has some amazing characters and she is my pick for this generation for a strong female.

From the way she treats Rush, to how she acts as a General of Athlum, she is just a great character.

I think I'll start up TLR again before Dark Souls comes out... lol.

one of the most sensible choices in this thread.

 

[Orayn]

I think the whole 'sexualized' thing is moot because there will always been that 'sexual' factor there. Some guys dig 'strong' women.

If there's anything the internet has taught me, it's that the only way to guarantee a character will never be sexually appealing to anyone is not to include the character at all.

 

[InfiniDragon]

This thread could have been closed after Emma, Hilde and Elena were posted, but here's another my brother (AlphaDragoon on the forums) thought of:

Faridah Malik from Deus Ex: Human Revolution. Even though there's

Spoiler

there's a section in which Adam can rescue her, she tells you to go and is ready and willing to die like a boss.

 

[LiK]

Strong women are so sexy. This thread made my head explode.

 

[Ledsen]

No you didn't. You you used a phrase for a broad category of undefined behaviors. That's not the answer I'm trying to get here. What specific traits are we talking about here? Is the character authoritative? A bully? Regularly scratches their ass? What makes an "alpha-male"?

I said stereotypical alpha male behavior, if you can't identify that stereotype I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Kaltagesta]

Well of course, but what leads you to call certain female characters "men with boobs"? And why? An open question to anyone.

Greater inclination towards physical fighting? Less parental instincts? Males having an instinct towards protecting females? Society is a far more complex mixture of variables and influences than it used to be I think, because I think it used to be (I mean thousands and thousands of years ago, sort of mid-evolutionary times before the accumulation of capital and private property even) far more about what was absolutely the most efficient, rather than fair or just. Again, I'm certainly not saying that males never or rarely display the characteristics mentioned above, merely that I think they're more inclined towards those, on average, than females. This isn't intended to be a value judgement.

Incorrect. I'm saying video games do not exist in a vacuum. They reflect the attitudes of the real world. I'm saying female characters are viewed through the lens of the real world and right now, sexism/misogyny is a major issue and female characters will be judged in that light which leads to a positive focus on strong female characters". I'm saying that only when society finally reaches true equal perception of the sexes will this become a non issue and the lens through which we see these characters will change.

Understood, and I agree, but it rather goes without saying doesn't it? That the way a society informs its people will subsequently inform their reading of characters. And it's true - but I'm not sure why that's relevant to the discussion at hand, insomuch as good characters can always be made. Characters written now might not be considered "good" in 100 years, as the societal understanding of gender roles evolve, but the audience is us, here and now, not people in the future. I don't see social equilibrium (not that I think that'll ever happen) as some sort of end point - it's just yet another variation of society, just another on a long time line of slow changes. And, in any one of those societies, you could create characters (even if those characters inhabit wholly different societies) that are engaging and interesting and don't mould to stereotypes, or break stereotypes in an achingly obvious way.

In fact, this discussion we're having is a great example of such an environment - Are there traits that can be said to be more common in men than women? Is it all purely nurture as opposed to nature? Could a character be written that's universally seen is interesting and good, throughout societal changes, or will they always be a relic of the time in which they were conceived? The society we live in, evidently, is one in which these discussions are taking place. In 100 years, we'll probably know at least which path society has trodden more down - one that treats all humans as having equal traits and abilities, or one that treats all humans as having equal worth but different leanings based on gender. But either way, the society we're in now is one in which is this discussion takes place, and so that's the society in which a good character can presently be written - one that challenges these various ideas and asks questions without necessarily being able to answer them. I don't think the society you see in the future, with equal perception of the sexes, will make this any easier or harder, it's just a different context in which to do it.

In short, female (and male) characters written today have to consider these gender stereotypes and views, even if they do not confirm to them.

 

[walking fiend]

Strong women are so sexy. This thread made my head explode.

sexy = sexualized! not only that, I am actually usually turned off by sexualized portraits of women.

 

[daffy]

That's entirely subjective based upon your interpretation.

She wasn't serialized in that trailer because she wasn't overtly sexual or performing sexual acts. Girls often have similar sounds of exertion between intense physical activity and sex due to the similar vocal pitch.

Shocking I know.

I was highly disappointed in everyone during all those discussion. But I laughed it off to hide the breaking of my fragile heart.

Gaffers gonna gaf man, that's how its gotta be. That's how its gonna be.

 

[DragonGirl]

sexy = sexualized! not only that, I am actually usually turned off by sexualized portraits of women.

Aye, the issue isn't that characters are sexy. Male characters are sexy too. Most fictional characters are portrayed in a physically idealized way. Sexualized means being visually reduced to your body parts (hypersexualized takes it ever further). Your existence centers on being sexy. Everything else is fluff, and that becomes dehumanizing.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

I have nothing else to add to this thread except to say that this:

... is the worst case of scoliosis I've ever seen.

 

[DragonGirl]

I said stereotypical alpha male behavior, if you can't identify that stereotype I don't know what to tell you.

...you're still missing the point I'm trying to steer you towards. Yes, I understand the "alpha male" stereotype. I'm trying to get at the specific traits associated with that stereotype. I don't know how to make that any clearer. Alpha male is not a behavioral trait. It's a lable applied to a bundle of traits. What are those traits?

 

[A Black Falcon]

[*]Zelda (Twlight Princess)

Well first, the game is last gen and the Wii version is a port. But beyond that, no way...

TP Zelda? What? Yeah, she's so strong that she spends most of the game hiding in a tower, too depressed to face the world. She doesn't have to be there -- if Link and Midna can get in and out, Zelda surely could too -- but she stays anyway, because she's too unhappy over her past actions to do anything at all through 95% of the game. The one exception is the scene

Spoiler

where she saves Midna

, but that doesn't exactly show her to be too much stronger.

Only at the very end of the game does she finally do anything and take action, but I think that her actions through the first 98% are more relevant when thinking about how strong she was in that game than the last 2% or so.

Spoiler

I mean, sure, she had been leading Hyrule for a short time before they lost that war (on that note, the leader of a Kingdom is not a Princess... either she should be Queen from the beginning or they should have said why she wasn't, yet... but I guess "Princess" is a less threatening title than "Queen", or something? More potential sexism.), but through almost the entire actual game all she's doing is being depressed about having surrendered at the end of the war, instead of fighting to the death or something.

Sure, what happened to Hyrule is awful, but she should have been doing something to change that, not just dumping it all on Link's head while sitting in a tower.

Midna's a much stronger character than Zelda in that game, I would say. She's got her own flaws though, most notably that she can't get much done without Link helping her, for some of that classic, unfortunate feminine weakness, but at least she does do stuff and is actively trying to save her people, unlike Zelda. (She's also naked through most of the game, of course, but that alone doesn't make her sexualized given the imp form and all...

Spoiler

her true form is pretty attractive though of course, as Link finds out at the end, so perhaps you could say that sexualizes her a bit more. I'm not sure, it might be debatable.

)

You realize that TP shows Zelda surrendering her entire kingdom to Zant in order to save her own life, right? She's also kept as a prisoner for the majority of the game. Not to mention that many of the characters in the game (especially Midna, and Zelda herself included IIRC) constantly remind you that she is completely detached from the average citizen and can't understand suffering (especially the Twili's). The only heroic things she does are at the very end of the game.

If anything you understate how bad Zelda was in TP... but yes, I agree, Zelda was not a strong character in TP, to say the least.

 

[AKingNamedPaul]

 

[Shtof]

Does Jack from ME2 counts? I mean, sure we can romance her, but she's a bald woman with super biotic powers who can easily kill anyone standing in her way and with so many tattoos that you can barely the skin. The only thing sexualized about her might be... the fact she's only wearing pants and some weird bra thing, despite the fact the tattoos nearly hide all the skin? I dunno.

Miranda on the other side...

datass.jpg

She's hyper sexualised and does not count.

 

[harriet the spy]

Bonnie and the Boss are great choices, though the Boss should probably get dismissed for that

Spoiler

semi-ridiculous outfit she wears in the last battle

 

[FreeMufasa]

wtf is this? :lol

Please tell me that's an exagerated hentai pic of the character.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

Bonnie and the Boss are great choices, though the Boss should probably get dismissed for that

Spoiler

semi-ridiculous outfit she wears in the last battle

That outfit was necessary to show you her scar, and it also represents a more vulnerable side of her.

wtf is this? :lol

Please tell me that's an exagerated hentai pic of the character.

I take it you've never played a Vanillaware game before.

 

[kyubajin]

wtf is this? :lol

Please tell me that's an exagerated hentai pic of the character.

Sorceress from the upcoming Vanillaware's Dragon's Crown (PS3, PSV).

 

[Kinyou]

I see nothing wrong with heels. When you are designing a woman for battle though it looks fucking stupid when they have on stilettos.

I agree that it's stupid on armor outfits but I think you could say that Kerrigan with her "organic" heels just wants to look more sexy and that's imo okay

 

[Izayoi]

wtf is this? :lol

Please tell me that's an exagerated hentai pic of the character.

Official art of the Sorceress in Dragon's Crown.

Beaten. ;_;

 

[Zoramon089]

either she should be Queen from the beginning or they should have said why she wasn't, yet... but I guess "Princess" is a less threatening title than "Queen", or something? More potential sexism

. . .