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[fluffydelusions]

PS4 and PC is enough. The only game worth keeping it for is on PC.

I suppose you are referring to Titanfall which I agree with. Also I'd be lying if I said I wasn't interested in remedies new game. Hopefully that will hit PC like Alan Wake did.

 

[evilalien]

I checked out the same scenes in 720p on Killer Instinct and the aliasing is non existent in both shots so it looks like the game only produces aliasing when played in 1080p and the upscaler isn't in effect.

I'll post some of the screens when I'm back at the PC.

The upscaler is still in effect though. The game has to go from 720p -> 1080p for output via upscaling and there is still very clear evidence of oversharpening in the shot with severe aliasing. If the game still has antialiasing applied when the XBone is set to 720p output, then it is not the upscaling solution that is adding AA.

Are there any games with no AA on the XBone? That would clear some questions up.

 

[Kuro]

The 1080p upscaler filter on the Xbox One also applies anti-aliasing or some sort of similar technique and effects gamma along with sharpening.

Here is some shots from Killer Instinct running at 1080p on both. When you hit the Home button to go to the dash it removes the filter for a few frames before minimizing into the dash. This allowed me to capture some frames with the game not using the filter.

You can see some comparisons here. Left with sharpen upscaler - Right with nothing applied. Both captured from 1080p source.

I will post some more comparison screens on Tuesday when I receive Dead Rising 3, Battlefield 4 and Call of Duty Ghosts.

I posted more about this here - http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=91733203&postcount=190

Notice on the right screen with no filter applied in the background on the wooden beams how much aliasing is shown but it's not seen at all on the filtered screen.

I think the real question here is, why does a 720p fighting game on the One have that much aliasing? It looks worse than some current gen fighters in that aspect.

 

[evilalien]

I think the real question here is, why does a 720p fighting game on the One have that much aliasing? It looks worse than some current gen fighters in that aspect.

It's 720p noAA with lots of sharpening. It's going to look worse than 720p noAA without sharpening simply because sharpening is making those high contrast aliased edges stick out so much.

 

[Parapraxis]

My reply to his post in the other thread:

It looks like some form of FXAA. Real AA is not being applied, as the step count on all edges is identical.

Compare his headband in these two images:

http://i1.minus.com/ibbly73f7uecIZ.png
http://i6.minus.com/ibjlCoWX6gxGXY.png

Stairs are identical. It's hard to see on some other edges, but it you look closely, you can see that the stair count across the entire image remains unchanged.

If I weren't at work I'd fire up an image editor and point out some of the more obvious spots.

I really have to wonder how many people have their monitors completely screwed up when looking at images/video in their browsers.

There are plenty of tests people can do to ensure they have proper brightness/contrast/hue etc.

Also, the unfiltered images of KI look insanely better than the filtered ones.

 

[Wickerbasket]

Ya you think? Its been bugging me all night. Its not really a money thing, just a "is it going to collect dust" thing

If it's not a money issue then I'd say just keep it; an exclusive might eventually come out that you want to play.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

I think the real question here is, why does a 720p fighting game on the One have that much aliasing? It looks worse than some current gen fighters in that aspect.

Developed by Double Helix Games. Should have actually been developed by Rare.

 

[bLaiSe]

Damn the X1 shots look terrible. They need to switch off this sharpening crap ASAP.
Also, I can't see much difference in the FM4 vs FM5 comparison. Obviously the resolution is better in FM5 but where are the shadows and what happened to the tarmac? I don't really care about Forza tbh, but that comparison just seems strange...

I really like this image comparison tool though.

 

[Conciliator]

Yeah that sharpening thing really seems like a bad idea. Edward looks noticeably better on the AC4 shots on PS4. Can't really see much difference in the Ghosts shot. That game got some ugly-ass textures though.

 

[Mononoke]

The 1080p upscaler filter on the Xbox One also applies anti-aliasing or some sort of similar technique and effects gamma along with sharpening.

Here is some shots from Killer Instinct running at 1080p on both. When you hit the Home button to go to the dash it removes the filter for a few frames before minimizing into the dash. This allowed me to capture some frames with the game not using the filter.

You can see some comparisons here. Left with sharpen upscaler - Right with nothing applied. Both captured from 1080p source.

I will post some more comparison screens on Tuesday when I receive Dead Rising 3, Battlefield 4 and Call of Duty Ghosts.

I posted more about this here - http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=91733203&postcount=190

Notice on the right screen with no filter applied in the background on the wooden beams how much aliasing is shown but it's not seen at all on the filtered screen.

So those in this thread arguing that it's TV calibration and not a scaler applying these effects, how do you explain it now? I only say this because if there is some technical explanation, then I would like to hear it. If there isn't then we should then accept this is a real thing and MS should fix it.

Edit: I give up.

The sharpening is shit.
However, the right images are not ingame images, they are scaled down (the resolution) for the dash pic, plus removed AA and effects. People seem to miss that.


Exactly, they are not representive of the actual game. But peole ignore that.

All I know is my games when scaled to 1080 have crushed blacks and a sharpening effect on mine. When I set it to 720p output it doesn't do it. It has more natural colors and no over excessive sharpening. This also only happens on X1 and not PS4 or Wii U. Forza which is native. 1080p doesn't do it. Ryse doesn't do it. But seemingly it's my tvs fault. Better accept it.

 

[Zombie James]

The technophiles' obsession with resolution is frankly quite disgusting at this point when it's quite obvious that there are more important things that should be focused on. I'm glad that at least MS are being visionaries in this regard with the XB1 and their labor-of-love filter that greatly improves picture quality.

 

[Aj174]

I have a stupid question, but still related and on subject...what's aliasing??

Also, the PS4 shots look much better. To the guy saying that X1 looks better than PS4, you realize that both game have the same assets, except one difference being resolution right? And that an increase in resolution = an increase in detail?

Also the lighting in AC4 is much better on PS4 than on the X1, the image is cleaner, the colours are natural, and not darkened by that shitty MS filter. The only games that had no difference were NBA 2k14 and Fifa. Madden looks like shit on both lol.

 

[nbnt]

The 1080p upscaler filter on the Xbox One also applies anti-aliasing or some sort of similar technique and effects gamma along with sharpening.

Here is some shots from Killer Instinct running at 1080p on both. When you hit the Home button to go to the dash it removes the filter for a few frames before minimizing into the dash. This allowed me to capture some frames with the game not using the filter.

You can see some comparisons here. Left with sharpen upscaler - Right with nothing applied. Both captured from 1080p source.

I will post some more comparison screens on Tuesday when I receive Dead Rising 3, Battlefield 4 and Call of Duty Ghosts.

I posted more about this here - http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=91733203&postcount=190

Notice on the right screen with no filter applied in the background on the wooden beams how much aliasing is shown but it's not seen at all on the filtered screen.

Great find!

I just used that trick at 720p and the result is..

So it's actually adding that filter even at 720p. Though this trick didn't work with Dead Rising 3, which suffer from the same severe black crush at both 720p and 1080p.

 

[Timu]

Great find!

I just used that trick at 720p and the result is..

So it's actually adding that filter even at 720p. Though this trick didn't work with Dead Rising 3, which suffer from the same severe black crush at both 720p and 1080p.

I want to know why it's happening.

 

[CTLance]

I have a stupid question, but still related and on subject...what's aliasing??

Wiki explains it best

Left: aliased, right: anti-aliased picture.

Still, a short version would be: Remember that we're dealing with the computation/rendering and display of images on screens using square(-ish) pixels. So, a black diagonal line is actually a bunch of black pixels arranged in a stair-like fashion. This can be easily seen if the pixels are too big.

Just get a graph paper and treat the squares as pixels to try this out in real life. Each pixel (square) can only hold one color. Now try to draw a black circle.

If you use a Compass and draw a circle on the paper you will see that many pixels (squares) will only have a tiny pit of the line on them.

To get the normal aliased picture you simply fill all pixels with a line on them -no matter how small- with black. This is how normal rendered pictures work. The resulting circle looks really odd.

To get an antialiased picture you look at how much of the square is "filled with the line". Let's say you divide each square on the paper into four smaller ones. You look at each of these minisquares and determine whether or not the circle intersects with them. You then fill the entire big pixel with a shade of gray representing how many minisquares are intersected by the circle, e.g. all four means black, only one is a very light gray. The resulting picture of a circle will have various shades of gray, but will look much smoother.

Congratulations, you just manually applied the most basic form of SSAA.

 

[Mononoke]

Great find!

I just used that trick at 720p and the result is..

So it's actually adding that filter even at 720p. Though this trick didn't work with Dead Rising 3, which suffer from the same severe black crush at both 720p and 1080p.

Interesting, for some reason the 720p effects was less noticeable to me than when it's scaled to 1080p (keep in mind I'm on a 55 inch HDTV). But your post proves it's doing it to both resolutions. I understand what that poster was saying to me on page 1 now. This is disappointing. I wish MS wouldn't do this.

So if someone does the same test with Ryse or Forza would it have the same effects?

 

[nbnt]

Interesting, for some reason the 720p effects was less noticeable to me than when it's scaled to 1080p (keep in mind I'm on a 55 inch HDTV). But your post proves it's doing it to both resolutions. I understand what that poster was saying to me on page 1 now. This is disappointing. I wish MS wouldn't do this.

So if someone does the same test with Ryse or Forza would it have the same effects?

No. Crytek used their method to upscale the game to 1080p. I don't have Forza but it's 1080p native so I don't think the XB1 would add that filter to it.

 

[RaikuHebi]

I want to know why it's happening.

Gotta hide all the things!

 

[HTupolev]

Great find!

I just used that trick at 720p and the result is..

So it's actually adding that filter even at 720p.

So it's really just that the game is using a post-process antialiasing solution which turns off under some circumstances.

Nothing to do with the scaling.

 

[evilalien]

So it's really just that the game is using a post-process antialiasing solution which turns off under some circumstances.

Nothing to do with the scaling.

It seems that way.

 

[michaelius]

Really considering selling my xbox one to my friend. I honestly dont have a ton of time to play anymore and its going to get worse with a baby in March.

Already have a ps4 and a gaming pc. Whats GAFs thoughts. Also, exclusives dont really matter to me.

Friends don't do such things to friends. Sell it to stranger at least.

 

[Vodh]

I opened the full size screens and I got them mixed up. And I was like, it can't be right, they must have messed up! If that's real, then XBO actually does look considerably better.

Then I checked the image names and all was right with the world once again.

 

[Mononoke]

No. Crytek used their method to upscale the game to 1080p. I don't have Forza but it's 1080p native so I don't think the XB1 would add that filter to it.

My bad, I knew that. Was slightly confused by the latest post. So basically, MS is applying this to 720p games and the effects are on at 720p native output and when it's scaled to 1080p. The effects filter is there regardless for this resolution.

 

[orborborb]

So how many people are going to get an image that was blackcrushed and sharpenhalo'd in the game's "post-processing", then a second time in the xbox scaler, then a third time in their TV (which is probably rescaling the scaled output a second time as wel). Unless the game artists are all trying for a bland neutral realism, it's a bad idea to give the game any overall additional processing because those original asset creators were probably making the best color and shading decisions. I remember an update to Crysis 2 that pretty much ruined the graphical quality.

On the other hand I am in complete agreement with the "don't waste resources on higher resolutions until you saturate the lower resolution with detail" argument as well.

 

[plagiarize]

So how many people are going to get an image that was blackcrushed and sharpenhalo'd in the game's "post-processing", then a second time in the xbox scaler, then a third time in their TV. Unless the game artists are all trying for a bland neutral realism, it's a bad idea to give the game any overall additional processing because those original asset creators were probably making the best color decisions. I remember an update to Crysis 2 that pretty much ruined the graphical quality.

On the other hand I am in complete agreement with the "don't waste resources on higher resolutions until you saturate the lower resolution with detail" argument as well.

there's nothing 'wasted' about resources used to hit the native resolution of your TV. a game played that way has more tangible gameplay benefits than one at less than native with a bunch more flashy effects crammed in. and yet those of us pushing for native resolutions are the ones constantly accused of caring about visuals over gameplay.

 

[lucius]

This is gonna be patched to be fixed right?

because it that looks terrible on One

 

[Liabe Brave]

Standby that post and will continue to do so indefinitely, people seem to have misinterpreted it for whatever reason but it clearly shows resolution is not everything, incredible detail can be contained within the confines of low resolutions.

Actually, it doesn't show that at all--rather, the exact opposite. Your post in fact shows why high resolution is very important. Here's the relevant parts of your post:

Show me a game that looks like that, that looks close to that, in 1080p, 4k, 8k, show me a single game that looks like that? ...Those pictures are far, far, far lower than 4k, they are far lower than 1080p.

The thing is, the reason those pictures have so much "world detail" is because they were originally taken with film or high-resolution digital cameras. These low-resolution images have been downsized, some of them drastically. This is supersampling, and it's a large part of what makes high-end PC games so much less jaggy than their console counterparts.

Of course, all this was already explained to you in detail elsewhere.

 

[wizzbang]

Actually, it doesn't show that at all--rather, the exact opposite. Your post in fact shows why high resolution is very important. Here's the relevant parts of your post:


The thing is, the reason those pictures have so much "world detail" is because they were originally taken with film or high-resolution digital cameras. These low-resolution images have been downsized, some of them drastically. This is supersampling, and it's a large part of what makes high-end PC games so much less jaggy than their console counterparts.

Of course, all this was already explained to you in detail elsewhere.

Blah blah blah
yep and you can explain all you like, you people STILL don't get my point in that discussion which wasn't INTERNAL resolution, it's the DISPLAY / OUTPUT resolution isn't as badly needed at 4k as people continue to claim. Those pictures demonstrate that a monitor or television running at 1080p are more than ample to contain incredibly detailed images, that was and continues to be my point, which people continue to not comprehend, it's mind boggling.

 

[Guess Who]

Sorry, wizzbang, if you think those pictures contain a great level of detail and are sufficiently high-resolution, you have pitifully low standards.

 

[serversurfer]

For those that think resolution doesn't make much difference in gameplay, try this.

Lay your hands on a PS4 and a copy of AC4. Make sure it's disconnected from the network (so it can't patch itself) and delete the install if you've already got one. Play the game for a few hours. Try to infiltrate a lot of large restricted areas so you spend a good bit of time observing distant guards, etc.

Now let the game apply the 900p->1080p update and play again. See how much easier it is to tell which way the guards are facing, etc? I was actually surprised at how much easier to play it became post-patch. I wasn't really expecting to notice a huge difference, but the detail on distant objects was immediately apparent to me, and it made a huge difference for observing enemies. It reminded me of when I got my glasses, actually. "Oh, so that's what everything is supposed to look like??"

 

[onanie]

On the other hand I am in complete agreement with the "don't waste resources on higher resolutions until you saturate the lower resolution with detail" argument as well.

I know you can't tell, but the following picture has had a million shaders applied to it

.

 

[HowlPendragon]

Been watching Digital Foundry's Xbone/PS4 comparison videos lately and it does indeed seem to be the case that the Xbone's picture looks considerably darker than the PS4's.

Which makes sense. The darker the image is, the less power you need to put towards rendering it.
Same with movies. You wanna skimp on quality and get away with cruddy CGI? Do it in a dark room. Makes it way easier to fool the eyes.