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[MKIL65]

Blizzard could always patch new voice lines in. Would be interesting to hear Symmetra speak Hindi when she puts down a teleporter or shield generator.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

This whole take is ridiculous when it comes to Zelda. They want realistic ME representation in a fantasy world with talking bird and fish people, robots with lasers, etc? Oh and camels in a desert area, how shocking and racist.....

The Gerudo stick it out in Zelda games cuz they're the few races that are heavily inspired by real people. And Nintendo makes it pretty obvious. They are by design Middle-Easterns.

 

[E-flux]

A lizard. Specifically a Horned Lizard. A camel is so cliche.

But there is already a lizard in the game who's basking on the side of death mountain.Camel might be a cliche but there are not many desert dwellers, especially big ones.

 

[Frumix]

Everyone on Earth learns English as their second language. I just find it interesting how Symmetra is one of the only ones in Overwatch to never speak her cultural tongue.

Pharah doesn't speak anything but English either, same with Torbjorn and Reinhardt.

 

[Glass Rebel]

Wait, so we can't call exotic cultures exotic now? I'm not sure what this is trying to argue? Zelda was developed in Japan, I'm sure they know about Asian culture.

It has never been ok to call humans or cultures "exotic".

 

[Poor GRIMES]

Wait, so we can't call exotic cultures exotic now? I'm not sure what this is trying to argue? Zelda was developed in Japan, I'm sure they know about Asian culture.

Japan knows about East Asian culture. Specifically, their own.

Also "exotic" in this sense refers to "the other."

 

[Meffer]

It already has a lizard.

Actually, it's based from the salamander because in alchemy myth it was believed they were representatives of fire.

 

[Marmaladefire]

Wait, so we can't call exotic cultures exotic now? I'm not sure what this is trying to argue? Zelda was developed in Japan, I'm sure they know about Asian culture.

Are you really equating the ubiquity of Japanese culture and it's infamous "soft power" to less recognized and doted over South Asian and ME cultures? "Asian culture" Cool, that's the biggest continent, no? With a huge amount of cultural power exercised by a relatively small (and isolationist!) island nation on it? And no, it's not okay to just other entire people and cultures like they're rugs and baskets.

 

[maomaoIYP]

Believe it or not, English is the de facto lingua franca over much of India, and it is used as a language in government, business and education.
Hindi is the only other official language accepted for government usage, but the southern states of India opposes its use.
India has no official national language.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_India#English

I live in a country with lots of Indians, but I'm not Indian.

 

[SinCityAssassin]

Maybe is because im also confusing them but can someone pinpoint anything about the gerudo that is south asian? Everything seems arabic to me, and in my ignorance i must say that it always seemed like morocco influenced to me.

The article blankets a couple of games, but the problem put forth in the sense of South Asian identity is Symmetra's lack of voice lines using her native language.

I'll continue to deny the camel bit as a point, Camels are an obvious representation of a desert and Vah Naboris isn't even modelled after Middle Eastern camels, but the two humped Bactrian camel of Central Asia.

 

[Irminsul]

The Gerudo stick it out in Zelda games cuz they're the few races that are heavily inspired by real people. And Nintendo makes it pretty obvious. They are by design Middle-Easterns.

The Sheikah are the definition of "ancient Japan" clichés. Also, I don't know how "obviously Middle Eastern" a matriarchy really is.

 

[Kthulhu]

The thing is that there isn't an even platform when it comes to cultural exportation. The West and certain parts of East Asia dominate global media when it comes to representation and "getting people interested in their culture."

Thus, there is a more encompassing and nigh complete look into those specific Western and East Asian cultures. The Philippinnes, India, Iran, Iraq, etc. do not have that same cultural mindshare.

Because of this, people tend to blur the lines between each culture thinking they're the same, when, in reality, they aren't. Like the article says, it's important to highlight the differences in each of these Middle Eastern and South Asian cultures and treat it respectfully, rather than bastardizing an element that the developers find "cool."

People have been taking general inspirations from cultures since pen was first put to paper, not to mention it isn't exclusive to the West or East Asia.

 

[nephilimdj]

Isnt it kinda like how Zenyatta has taoism stuff, yet clearly made him from Nepel not to upset China?

 

[lvl99 Pixel]

The Gerudo stick it out in Zelda games cuz they're the few races that are heavily inspired by real people. And Nintendo makes it pretty obvious. They are by design Middle-Easterns.

While true, Nintendo is pretty careful about not making any religious or culturally offensive things, at least not since Ocarina of Time had its muslim themed elements removed.

 

[Poor GRIMES]

The Sheikah are the definition of "ancient Japan" clichés. So?

That's the thing... it's specifically ancient Japan. It's not attempting to co-opt bits and pieces from every ancient Asian civilization. Unlike the Gerudo, which the piece states, is a melting pot of several Middle Eastern ones.

 

[Charles Brandon]

It did feel kinda weird how the Gerudo are put on level with the Zora, Rito, and Gorons as "fantastical exotic guardian races."

Like you got the fish people, the bird people, the rock people, and... the brown desert folks.

And then you have the Hylians, who seem to be in charge and are ... white? Question mark because I know there are some misunderstandings about how the Japanese draw themselves. Is Link Hylian now? Wasn't he Kokiri at one point (who are now leaves)? I don't pay much attention to Zelda lore because, personally, I don't think it's important or had much thought gone into it. Are the Sheikah Hylian or their own race?

 

[Irminsul]

Unlike the Gerudo, which the piece states, is a melting pot of several Middle Eastern ones.

So which Middle Eastern culture is the matriarchy taken from? Or does one just pick and choose those elements of a fictional culture that fit to a cliché of a real one and igonre the rest so the argument fits?

 

[TheRedSnifit]

And the you have the Hylians, who seem to be in charge and are ... white? Question mark because I know there are some misunderstandings about how the Japanese draw themselves. Is Link Hylian now? Wasn't he Kokiri at one point (who are now leaves)? I don't pay much attention to Zelda lore because, personally, I don't think it's important or had much thought gone into it.

The Hylians aren't in charge of anything after their kingdom got nuked.

BOTW Link and Ocarine of Time Link are different people.

Actually... the Sheikah in BotW take inspiration from Jomon and Edo Japan, I think some from the Meiji era too.

And the Hylians have always been a hodge-podge of various Western nations.

 

[wandering]

Isnt it kinda like how Zenyatta has taoism stuff, yet clearly made him from Nepel not to upset China?

Besides the harmony and discord orbs, he's really more Buddhist inspired than Taoist.

 

[Poor GRIMES]

People have been taking general inspirations from cultures since pen was first put to paper, not to mention it isn't exclusive to the West or East Asia.

It doesn't matter though. "When pen was first put to paper," the power balance and representation was nowhere near as skewed towards certain cultures than it is now. It's reached the point where brown people have to deal with "well that's mighty fine and good enough for this one tiny bit of my culture to be represented here."

Actually... the Sheikah in BotW take inspiration from Jomon and Edo Japan, I think some from the Meiji era too.

Yes... all ancient Japanese eras.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Wait, so we can't call exotic cultures exotic now? I'm not sure what this is trying to argue? Zelda was developed in Japan, I'm sure they know about Asian culture.

You should read this.

Women of color experience continue exotification in different ways, either in the forms of hyper desire and sexualization or in the form of erasure.

Seen as exotic and thus fetishized as stereotypes, women of color aren't fully recognized as people. Being called exotic is also like someone saying, ”I'm only choosing to recognize you by your race, which by the way, I'm fetishizing as sexy."

The exotification turns women of color into animals, props, and costumes.

The ”sexy" Indian, harem girl, and Geisha costumes that turn up at Halloween every year are evidence that women of color still continue to have their identities turned into one-dimensional, caricatured representations.

Calling a woman of color ”exotic" is not only racist, but has harmful, lived impacts of how we and how are communities are treated on a day to day basis and on a systemic level.

This mainly is about how the word is used on WoC but the same could be applied to different cultures. Essentially your not looking at someone or a culture as human beings. Your putting them on some weird pedestal when you call them "exotic".

It already has a lizard.

Should have used that Beasts and thought of something else for the Goron. A dragon would have been fine.

 

[Dark Ninja]

I would argue that the Sheikah are equally a Japanese stereotype.

They even build giant robots.

They also run leaning forward with their hands flailing behind them.

Should have used that Beasts and thought of something else for the Goron. A dragon would have been fine.

The game already has several dragons, a goat god, and a horse god.

 

[squall23]

Mei speaks Mandarin and Ana speaks Arabic. Why not allow Symmetra to speak Hindi? Or any of the other major languages in India?

It could be down to whether the VA themselves know how to speak that particular language. I remember there was a conversation about how Lucio's VA is actually Canadian and allegedly doesn't speak Portuguese.

There are actually quite a few characters in that game that don't speak their native language, not that they shouldn't, but it could be because of the VAs.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

Should have used that Beasts and thought of something else for the Goron. A dragon would have been fine.

There's already giant dragons though.

Have you, er, played the game?

 

[Blues1990]

Blizzard could always patch new voice lines in. Would be interesting to hear Symmetra speak Hindi when she puts down a teleporter or shield generator.

There could be the issue of the voice actress not being able to speak fluently in Telugu (the character itself was born in Hyderabad, India).

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

There's already giant dragons though.

Have you, er, played the game?

Yes. They could have made another one.

 

[Chairmanchuck]

Overwatch itself portrays everything in a stereotypical way.

Germany? Must be beer and castles.
Japan? Cherry blossoms and japanese castle.
America? USA! USA!
Mexico? Well....
China? Some sort of mix between HK and old temples.

 

[Dali]

Did you even read the article or? Cherrypicking the cool stuff from each individual culture and not giving it the nuance it deserves leads to bastardized forms of "diversity." The most egregious is the MW2 example where the devs completely got Pakistan's language wrong

That was pretty much the only example that held any significance to me. I don't see a problem in using an amalgam of cultures to create a fictional tribe. Hidden villages of women is something not limited to middle eastern culture. Ocarina of time came out in 1998 so try to be a little more up to date with your examples and by his own admission the star and crescent was replaced. And finally if it's not a culture that I am steeped in then it will seem exotic by default. He named dropped prince of Persia and assassin's creed as games that try to play up the exoticness but gives no specific examples. I think a game's goal no matter where its setting lies is to make the world more interesting than it is in real life. The sonic video was supposed to be spne sort of glaring example of playing up the mystery of the Arab world when actually it was just trying to be showy and get you excited about what lies ahead.

 

[True Fire]

To be fair, Hyrule is a weird mashup between Japanese and European cultures.

It's like how Game of Thrones has its European mashup country to parallel its Middle Eastern mashup countries. Though GOT treats its ~ethnic~ characters as savages and slave owners, which is significantly more racist than Zelda.

 

[Poor GRIMES]

So which Middle Eastern culture is the matriarchy taken from? Or does one just pick and choose those elements of a fictional culture that fit to a cliché of a real one and igonre the rest so the argument fits?

The matriarchy isn't the importance here. It's taking images and symbols from those specific cultures and putting them into one pot to make a "brand new" Brown culture readily packaged for the game.

 

[Meffer]

You should read this.

This mainly is about how the word is used on WoC but the same could be applied to different cultures. Essentially your not looking at someone or a culture as human beings. Your putting them on some weird pedestal when you call them "exotic".

Should have used that Beasts and thought of something else for the Goron. A dragon would have been fine.

They used the salamander because it has mythological history with fire.

 

[Jintor]

It's the generic fantasy culture specifically German, British, French, Norman... What is it?

 

[lvl99 Pixel]

Overwatch itself portrays everything in a stereotypical way.

Germany? Must be beer and castles.
Japan? Cherry blossoms and japanese castle.
America? USA! USA!
Mexico? Well....

Overwatch is exaggerated in every aspect. It thrives on it.
The game would likely be a lot less fun if it were less stereotypical and tropey.

 

[Dark Ninja]

The matriarchy isn't the importance here. It's taking images and symbols from those specific cultures and putting them into one pot to make a "brand new" Brown culture readily packaged for the game.

Which one is known for abs?

 

[Azoor]

Middle Eastern here, I thought Overwatch had a very respectable depiction of Middle Easterns.

Also, the depictions in Zelda are a mixture of cultures like what the article says,but as a middle eastern I don't find it offensive since it's a fictional race in a fictional world that doesn't try to realistically represent these cultures.

 

[Meffer]

The matriarchy isn't the importance here. It's taking images and symbols from those specific cultures and putting them into one pot to make a "brand new" Brown culture readily packaged for the game.

In a fantasy setting, to make a fantasy culture.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

I'll go back to saying the Gerudo Beast should have been a Sand-Seal.

 

[Poor GRIMES]

Meiji was 150 years ago lol. Jomon started 10k or so years ago, and Edo was about 400 years ago. Only the design of their creations are inspired by Jomon, everything else is Edo and Meiji, which is not "ancient".

150 years ago is a century and a half ago... that's pretty damn ancient to me :/. Regardless, that's a game of semantics. The Sheikah imagery and cultural flourishes are firmly rooted in Japan.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

Yes. They could have made another one.

Man, how many dragons does this game need.

For real though, the clear intent was to have the Beasts be based on real animals. There's a salamander, an elephant, an eagle, and a camel. I don't think dragons would have fit into that quite as well.

 

[CryptiK]

I was unaware that camels were native to the deserts of the USA.

Some middle eastern countries imports most of their camels from Australia btw, oh and Sand.

 

[Mendrox]

I didn't make the connection of Naboris being a camel but after this writer pointed it out, I can't unsee it. lol

What else is it supposed to be? lol

 

[patapuf]

That's the thing... it's specifically ancient Japan. It's not attempting to co-opt bits and pieces from every ancient Asian civilization. Unlike the Gerudo, which the piece states, is a melting pot of several Middle Eastern ones.

And non middle eastern ones. Like the camel, the matriarchy, seals.

They are about as vaguely middle eastern as the hylians are european: not at all, just as the article points out.

Zelda doesn't represent any real world cultural identity by design.

 

[Chairmanchuck]

Overwatch is exaggerated in every aspect. It thrives on it.
The game would likely be a lot less fun if it were less stereotypical and tropey.

Thats why I, personally, dont see that big of an issue. Every character/map is based on exagerrated stereotypes.

Its similar to fighting games imo.

 

[Irminsul]

Which one is known for abs?

Or 2.40m tall women, for that matter.

 

[Kthulhu]

It doesn't matter though. "When pen was first put to paper," the power balance and representation was nowhere near as skewed towards certain cultures than it is now. It's reached the point where brown people have to deal with "well that's mighty fine and good enough for this one tiny bit of my culture to be represented here."

How generic and broad are writers allowed to be to satisfy you when taking inspiration from a culture?

 

[Poor GRIMES]

In a fantasy setting, to make a fantasy culture.

Isn't it odd to you how one of the only times Brown people are represented in gaming is to depict stereotypes of said cultures?

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

What else is it supposed to be? lol

I thought it was a giant mythological beast. I wasn't fully studying it's design to make the connection.

 

[Kinyou]

The matriarchy isn't the importance here. It's taking images and symbols from those specific cultures and putting them into one pot to make a "brand new" Brown culture readily packaged for the game.

Is that so bad? Attack on Titan's setting is a weird mix of various European cultures. Wouldn't it be weirder to find an accurate culture in a zelda game?

 

[Usobuko]

It doesn't matter though. "When pen was first put to paper," the power balance and representation was nowhere near as skewed towards certain cultures than it is now. It's reached the point where brown people have to deal with "well that's mighty fine and good enough for this one tiny bit of my culture to be represented here."

Do you honestly believe people care when it's in their interest to be overly represented and that a few minor bits of under-represented folks aren't in the grand scheme of extending the dominance because now they can say a trend is there?

You have too much faith in people. So long as it's not in their interest to do so, the vast majority won't care about it.

 

[KooopaKid]

So which Middle Eastern culture is the matriarchy taken from? Or does one just pick and choose those elements of a fictional culture that fit to a cliché of a real one and ignore the rest so the argument fits?

.