• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014

Status
Not open for further replies.
V

Vipershark

Member
I'm honestly curious how much many of you here know about the pro-Gate side of things.

Reading through this thread it's very clear that GAF skews heavily anti-Gate, but at the same time it's also clear that there's a lot of misinformation going around, particularly in terms of who's doing what and how things started and what's currently happening.

So I have to ask, how many of you have actually been reading the 4chan threads on this? How many of you have been reading pro-Gate discussions/strategy stuff?

I've been reading things on both sides of the issue and and trying to read both the GAF and 4chan threads in real time and it seems that the anti-Gate side is largely unaware of how pro-Gate works or what they're actually doing.

I keep seeing anti-Gate people saying that [hate for] Zoe and Anita are pro-Gate's motivation for what they're doing, but that's quite honestly... wrong.
While I admit that there is a LOT of hate for both of them, they aren't the main focus of the issue and the claim that journalistic integrity is being used as a cover for some sort of misogynist hate plot is pretty off-base.

"But if that's the case and it's not about Zoe, why did all of this only spring up when Zoe, a woman, was called out? Where was GamerGate at <past event>? Why are people only mad when a woman is the focus of it?"
They aren't. The issues regarding journalistic integrity and such have been in the gaming community for years and it's no secret that people have been annoyed with them all this time, even here on GAF. There was just never really a boiling point until now and a lot of the problems were based around industry-only stuff that happened behind closed doors. There was never really an "in" for the issue, you know? That's why this sort of thing never really exploded over a AAA developer, because while the obvious Doritos n' Dew type advertising was everywhere and nobody was/is happy with it, there was never a good angle of attack on the issue because nobody really had proof of anything and most people weren't talking.

It's the same reason nobody said anything about that one guy's Borderlands 2 connections, among other things. Nobody said anything because NOBODY KNEW.

But then thezoepost was released and suddenly that "in" became available because it turned out that, woah, it looks like there's some stuff going on between developers and press after all!
As we all know some of that stuff has been debunked by now, but even when the issue was largely just focused on Zoe, most of the early excitement/outrage was less GET ZOE and more "holy crap we've been right all this time there's stuff going on this is really happening."

Had thezoepost never existed, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if none of this would have happened because that "insider information" simply wasn't out there. We'd all be posting about Smash Bros and Destiny right now and everyone would still be going about their day as usual, quietly annoyed about Kotaku making terrible clickbait articles. GamerGate would end up happening some other time maybe with some other developer in some other situation. Who knows. But the underlying issues would still be there.

Now, obviously that doesn't justify the harassment that Zoe received nor am I trying to justify it, but I hope that better explains how/why this thing got started. While yes, it did start out as just being about Zoe (because the only information at the time was specifically about her), once pro-Gate started digging and other people started getting roped in it spread like wildfire and she was no longer the center of it; instead, she became just one part of the bigger picture.

To use a really terrible analogy, if you think of this whole ordeal as a MOBA, Zoe is simply one of the "heroes" on the anti-Gate team. Obviously she's going to be attacked (and do her share of attacking), but she's not the main focus of the fight.

It's to the point where 4chan is actively avoiding talking about her or Anita because discussion of them is detracting from the bigger issue. You can actually go in the GamerGate threads RIGHT NOW and see people telling other people to shut up about Zoe and stop harassing her and stop drawing attention to her because it's not about her and to focus on journalism instead.

"But the IRC! The death threats! The doxxing! Someone sent Anita CP!"
Yeah, I'm aware of that. Those things are really bad and I'm not justifying them in any way. They shouldn't have happened. But that doesn't mean that a few people doing a few things are indicative of the movement as a whole.

Not everyone taking part in GamerGate is from 4chan. Just because they're taking part in it doesn't make it some kind of anti-woman hate campaign.
Despite what it may seem, the majority of pro-Gate members (including the ones on 4chan who are actively taking part in the threads) are trying hard to cull the harassment and have more productive dialogue.

Basically, I guess my overall point is that if you haven't seen anything from Gamergate outside of tweets from people taking about harassment and stuff, you should actually go there yourself to see what people are saying to each other and doing to try to work things out.

I'm not trying to defend Gamergate here (because frankly I think both sides of the issue are being childish and stupid) but I think it's important that if you anti-Gate guys want to end this in any reasonable way, you at least try to see it from both perspectives. I've been reading both sides of the issue to try to understand where everyone is coming from, and I think it's important that other people do as well. Cut out the fighting and the anger and discuss stuff rationally.
 
A

alstein

Member
boogie2988 said:
I don't know that I would agree with everything Brad would say, especially considering the way you've described it here, but I'd just like to say its nice to see people enter the discussion provided he's doing it kindly and harmlessly.

But again please don't get confused. I have no side in this, unless its both sides.
Click to expand...

What you are proposing is still a side. I consider pro-diversity anti-dumbassery a side.

Vipershark said:
I'm honestly curious how much many of you here know about the pro-Gate side of things.

Reading through this thread it's very clear that GAF skews heavily anti-Gate, but at the same time it's also clear that there's a lot of misinformation going around, particularly in terms of who's doing what and how things started and what's currently happening.
.
Click to expand...


Yeah, GAF skews anti-Gate, and it's because they are discounting the folks who are as I mentioned above discussing this under the #gg tag. That doesn't mean that the trolling and assclowning isn't happening. Of course you also have SJWs comparing folks to members of ISIS which is pretty assholish in itself.

I'm just opposed to the assholes right now, on both sides, period.
 
P

Painguy

Member
My post is probs gonna get over shadowed or ignored by all the craziness in here (or because of its size lol), but I'd like to give my 2 cents. I&#8217;ve always tended to post in safe threads because I&#8217;ve always been afraid that If I said something that the majority didn&#8217;t agree with then I&#8217;d receive hurtful backlash, but I think I&#8217;m going to take that risk. I'm not the best writer so I apologize in advance. Hopefully I manage to get my point across.

Equality has been an important struggle that we as people have always dealt with. It's only natural to want to be on a level playing field as everyone else. With this in mind activist groups like feminists or other humanitarian groups make sense. They serve the purpose of bettering a group of people who have historically been at a disadvantage. Despite these groups trying put everyone on a level playing field there are some who wish to take advantage of that.

Feminism isn't inherently a bad thing. By its nature humanitarian activism is good. Unfortunately there is also such a thing as extreme activism (AKA taking things too far). Feminism is not an exception to this rule. In recent years it has become a trend to shame those who feel that some &#8220;Feminists&#8221; are taking advantage of their positions as &#8220;victims&#8221;. This has caused many people to become what I call &#8220;White Knights in Shining Armor&#8221; (AKA SJW). As evident in this thread, and other sites, anyone who is even the slightest bit perturbed by all the coddling some women are receiving are met with massive harassment. Boogie2988 makes a very good point here
boogie2988 said:
I do not think journalists are corrupt because of zoe's games or anything related to it. I think journalists are corrupt because they are human and just like all of us we make mistakes.
Click to expand...
Doctors spend a quarter of their lives training for their profession yet they make mistakes. It's absurd to think someone like a "journalist" won't do something corrupt. In general people tend to lie, cheat and steal. No one is exempt from that especially people in supposedly reputable positions. Presidents like Nixon, and Clinton are perfect examples(Lets not get started on politics). In an attempt to seem nice, cool, and sensitive many people blindly defend these extreme feminists, and &#8220;journalist&#8221;. Some even do it out of fear of being labeled a sexist. For example, if I were to announce that I dislike Anita Sarkeesian then many people would automatically label me as an insensitive asshole or a sexist. If I was a sexist then by definition that would imply that I hate my mom simply because she is a woman. Let me reassure you all that I love my mother without condition, but I certainly do not like Anita Sarkeesian.

In the gaming community Anita Sarkeesian has become almost synonymous with feminism. When I originally heard of her mission I was quite happy that there was someone pointing out the lack of female involvement in game development. I was expecting the majority of her talks to consist of ways to push women to take up math,science and interactive art courses in college so that they could qualify for positions in the industry. However, once she started asking for money to make youtube video&#8217;s I became a bit weary. Soon her videos began to roll out and the end result was simply her sitting in front of a camera spouting hate against men. There was nothing that would warrant a request for $6,000 let alone $150,000. Anita spends quite a bit of time blaming men and gamers for the lack of women in the games industry, and lack of female protagonists in games. She almost never addresses ways for women to break into the industry and expects male developers to sacrifice their creative ideas rather than propose effective ways for women to get jobs as developers so they can bring forth their own. She puts down games where women are killed and sexualized yet ignores thousdands of male characters who are mutilated and designed with muscular bodies. There is no comparison in games between how many men are killed and sexualized vs women. She is not a feminist, she is an extremist.

Unfortunately just as there are feminist extremist there are also the extreme internet trolls. These people deem it necessary to drive people like Sarkeesian out of their homes. This simply adds more fuel to the fire. Any valid complaint against people like Quinn or Sarkeesian can now easily be ignored. One thing I must give to Anita Sarkeesian is that her videos are presented in a calm manner. If these trolls presented themselves with a calm demeanor like she does then maybe people would be more likely to notice the flaws with her videos rather than sympathize with her. I don&#8217;t even like her and I feel sorry for her. This kind of harassment is unacceptable. Having an opinion should not warrant that level of hate. While I certainly can&#8217;t dismiss and ignore these women because of the circumstance that have befallen them there are women far more deserving of attention in the gaming industry. People like Corrinne Yu or Kellee Santiago should be the face of women in gaming not Sarkeesian. Corrinne Yu & Kellee Santiago are the perfect example of a women who procured the proper skills to make it into the industry (I fail to see how someone with a communications degree is qualified to comment on how games are to be made). They didn&#8217;t sit around making videos telling what other people should do for them, they went ahead and did it themselves. That is the type equality feminism (and activism in general) strive for. They had the opportunity to work hard like everyone else and they took it.

The only way we can have more Corinne Yu&#8217;s & Kellee Santiago&#8217;s is by promoting math, science, and interactive arts, not by crying misogyny over stupid stuff like CGI boobs or giving attention to &#8220;developers&#8221; who don&#8217;t deserve it. By having more girls and women take up such studies eventually the large influx of female applicants will force women into the games industry. Equality is only achieved when everyone has to work the same amount(for their respective goals) to realize their ideas or dreams. You cannot (or rather should not) expect others to do that for you.


TL;DR
Activism strives for equality, and equality is when everyone has to work equally hard to achieve goals. Feminism is great, but some people are taking advantage of being the &#8220;victim&#8221;, and using feminism as a way to make people bend over for them. People who point this out are called sexist. Some people join in on the name calling out of fear being called a sexist. Unfortunately there are internet trolls who take things too far against &#8220;feminists&#8221;. Anita Sarkeesian blames men for bad representation of women in games, and expects them to change their creative view instead of using her channel promote math, science, and interactive arts for women so that they have the opportunity to realize their ideas. Corrine Yu, and Kellee Santiago should be the face of women in the games industry because they are actually qualified, and deserve the attention.


Again sorry for the long post guys. I hope I didn&#8217;t offend anyone, it certainly isn't my intention to. This is just how I feel, and I hope you can respect that without thinking of me as a sexist or insensitive. I simply feel our attention is misplaced. I'm going to go to sleep now as I've spent far too many hours writing this.
 
N

Noaloha

Member
Vipershark said:
I'm honestly curious how much many of you here know about the pro-Gate side of things.

Reading through this thread it's very clear that GAF skews heavily anti-Gate, but at the same time it's also clear that there's a lot of misinformation going around, particularly in terms of who's doing what and how things started and what's currently happening.

So I have to ask, how many of you have actually been reading the 4chan threads on this? How many of you have been reading pro-Gate discussions/strategy stuff?
*snip for space*
Click to expand...

I've honestly tried my damnedest to filter out the more reasonable - or perhaps just less childish - arguments on the side of #GamerGate. I haven't done so much the past week or so, I'm tired of it, sick even, but I looked into both 'sides' daily for the three weeks prior. I would do my research, read around many forums, pro, anti and neutral. My take-away was:

I have been able to get a good solid handle on the reasonable arguments within the anti-#GG crowd through well-written, down-to-earth opinion-piece articles coupled with reasoned forum discussion based on facts, discussion that corrects false accusations and poorly reasoned arguments when they pop up. This has been commonplace. Occasionally there's nasty bullshit, conspiracy-level pontificating, generalised stereotyping of an unhelpful and dismissive nature. The former has far outweighed the latter however

I have not been able to get anything close to a consolidated viewpoint on the pro-#GG arguments -- 'arguments' very much plural and often contrary -- from the vast majority of the avenues I've used. A #GamerGate chrome tab being left open hasn't helped (as you'd assume it would) -- it's just terse nuggets of noise, mostly cheering on the latest unfounded accusation, lots of factless infographics, salacious youtube videos that I can barely make it a few minutes into, overall, just more nastiness than I cared to digest. A very unpleasant tab to leave open, all things considered. What I wanted from following that tab were the counter-articles to challenge the opinion pieces I'm reading that are anti-#GG. From what I can tell... there aren't any. If #GG is such a reasonable and noble goal, why am I having such a hard time finding a single well-written account that doesn't resort to false accusations? The comment sections on sites like The Escapist are shocking cesspits of awful opinions, opinions so far out of touch with my own, nasty and hurtful opinions. Of all the sites I've been watching, IGN may well be the worst, which surprised me for some reason. Fucking despicable what people were posting there. If I cast my thoughts back and consider all the pro-#GG things I've read/watched/heard that aren't a) dealing with complete hearsay or proven falsehoods, or b) just downright nasty, I'm not sure I'd fill up one hand if I were to bother counting them. I believe/hope that they're out there, but by the shits they are not easy to find.

As for 4chan, I haven't gone there to engage with their discussion, nor will I. I place too much value on accountability to use the site, a personal philosophy. To say I'm not a fan of the place would be underselling it. But with that said, if the argument is that I need/ to visit 4chan to obtain any well-written commentaries on #GG's positive aspects then I'll infer from that need what I may.

The funny thing is that, through all of this, #GamerEthics probably highlighted the most reasonable concerns. For the couple of days it remained focused, before being flooded with cries of "dont abandon #GG!! we're winning!"
 
N

not_so_special

Banned
alstein said:
There is a segment pushing Boogie's side of things as well - Brad Wardell in particular has been pumping out a few articles on his opinion site that I mostly agree with. I do think he goes in hard on SJWers, but given the abuse he suffered a few years ago (including from ZQ), it's understandable on his part. He has been defending LA during all of this, and I remember LA being one of the few on the SJW side of things actually being fair to him during the whole false lawsuit- where he said he received a couple of credible death threats, and a bunch of non-credible ones , from SJWs.
Click to expand...


wardell suffered abuse from zoe? thats news to me..care to elaborate?
 
M

marrec

Banned
Vipershark said:
I'm honestly curious how much many of you here know about the pro-Gate side of things.

Reading through this thread it's very clear that GAF skews heavily anti-Gate, but at the same time it's also clear that there's a lot of misinformation going around, particularly in terms of who's doing what and how things started and what's currently happening.
Click to expand...

I read through your post and it reflects the thoughts of a lot of people that I've talked to inside the GG hashtag.

I've spent the last 8 days reading the hashtag and the 4chan threads and it does seem like there's genuine concern inside the movement. The problem is that it's all floating on top of a slime pool of anti-progressive archaic fit throwing. I'll be talking to someone who seems totally reasonable and we're having a great discussion about transparency and culpability and devs and publishers and then they say 'Oh ya, and those SJWs need to shut the fuck up about our video games. That's what we need MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE'.

So yes, I've tried to be sympathetic, going so far as writing a blog post about how I "Understand" gamergate's anger. But I can't ever support anything that's so blatantly anti-progressive. There's a reason Sommers and Baldwin and Milo have attached themselves to this movement like a school of slimey lamprey. They see that this is a chance to have an area of the internet crafted in their conservative and, frankly, backwards attitudes and they're right.

I do, however, think it's hilarious that 4chan has been basically invaded by well meaning gamers talking about positive activism while the normal crowd is still desperately trying to talk about which Samus they like to fap to the best.

Oh and, completely off the current topic, Boogie's back... bottom lines and all that.
 
T

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Painguy said:
In the gaming community Anita Sarkeesian has become almost synonymous with feminism. When I originally heard of her mission I was quite happy that there was someone pointing out the lack of female involvement in game development. I was expecting the majority of her talks to consist of ways to push women to take up math,science and interactive art courses in college so that they could qualify for positions in the industry. However, once she started asking for money to make youtube video&#8217;s I became a bit weary. Soon her videos began to roll out and the end result was simply her sitting in front of a camera spouting hate against men. There was nothing that would warrant a request for $6,000 let alone $150,000. Anita spends quite a bit of time blaming men and gamers for the lack of women in the games industry, and lack of female protagonists in games. She almost never addresses ways for women to break into the industry and expects male developers to sacrifice their creative ideas rather than propose effective ways for women to get jobs as developers so they can bring forth their own.
Click to expand...
I still don't get this perspective quite honestly. I don't see how you can percieve anything she's doing as "hate" or "an attack" unless you literally consider any broad criticism of a group to be a personal crusade against you, or something.

She puts down games where women are killed and sexualized yet ignores thousdands of male characters who are mutilated and designed with muscular bodies. There is no comparison in games between how many men are killed and sexualized vs women. She is not a feminist, she is an extremist.
Click to expand...
Its not just about who's killed, its about how they're killed and how its framed
 
N

Noaloha

Member
http://www.quartertothree.com/game-...his-has-gone&p=3630513&viewfull=1#post3630513

iua4YLmOVFxMk.JPG


This dev and the team he's in are making up their own minds based on the content of Sarkeesian's selected analyses. Hurray for that, I say.
 
P

Palette Swap

Member
Vipershark said:
.
Click to expand...
The thing is, even after your post, it's still impossible to pinpoint concretely and concisely what GG's ethic concerns are. Every time that question is asked, the answer is vague as hell.

My understanding is that the movement (or parts of it) effectively operates on 3 fronts:

1. The noble part: journalistic ethics. The only concrete demand I've seen on that front are disclosures of relationships and AFAIK, sites like Kotaku or Polygon changed their policies between the initial Zoe "scandal" and the beginning of the campaign.

2. The angry part: some people were apparently super angry after the Alexander piece and a few others. That's the part were people are asking about having the right to have comments and to have opinion pieces clearly delineated. That one doesn't have shit to do with ethics.

3. The terrible part: this one focuses on character assassinating ZQ in particular and digging shit up.

With 1 being completely inaudible here (again, I'd love to see a list of factual expectations on stuff that isn't already in place), the net result is that the movement comes across as a mix of 2 and 3: either whiny or actually hateful.
 
M

marrec

Banned
Toodles said:
http://www.quartertothree.com/game-...his-has-gone&p=3630513&viewfull=1#post3630513

This dev and the team he's in are making up their own minds based on the content of Sarkeesian's selected analyses. Hurray for that, I say.
Click to expand...

Which is all that will EVER come about from these 'SJW' videos and articles. The fanbase they're making the games for is overwhelmingly apathetic to Anita and her videos so any change that happens is only going to happen because devs gain self-awareness, not because there's a fascist conspiracy.

Duh. Just... fucking duh.
 
B

boogie2988

Banned
Toodles said:
http://www.quartertothree.com/game-...his-has-gone&p=3630513&viewfull=1#post3630513

iua4YLmOVFxMk.JPG


This dev and the team he's in are making up their own minds based on the content of Sarkeesian's selected analyses. Hurray for that, I say.
Click to expand...

I do really enjoy Anita's videos. I don't always agree with what she says or even the way she says it, but I find they really open my mind to a lot of things. Sometimes she's just flat wrong in the ways she makes her points by misrepresenting the games or leaving out intent and that frustrates me, but her overall points are fantastic.

I hate all of the negative drama that surrounded her kickstarter and her career but I'm very grateful that there are women like here who speak their very valid opinions and are able to brave the storm that follows.

I am glad that her videos are having an impact on developers too! I just hope we never get to the point where developers are afraid to use these kinds of elements at all even when they would fit the story best. But if we reach that day, and women feel more comfortable gaming, that's a price I'd consider.
 
S

SwissLion

Member
Painguy said:
Again sorry for the long post guys. I hope I didn’t offend anyone, it certainly isn't my intention to. This is just how I feel, and I hope you can respect that without thinking of me as a sexist or insensitive. I simply feel our attention is misplaced. I'm going to go to sleep now as I've spent far too many hours writing this.
Click to expand...

Nobody, I hope, is going to call you a sexist. I imagine some are going to point out what they feel are pretty severe mis-characterisations and misunderstandings of sexism, feminism and Sarkeesian in particular.

I hope you can take them as the well-intentioned and hopeful criticisms of your point that they are, and not as attacks on yourself.

I've watched all of the Tropes vs Women series, and several of Anita's videos about other pop culture before them. She's not a radical feminist. To my view she's fairly moderate.

I don't deny that there are radicals associated with any movement, but to me, radical feminists are those that villify trans women as not being 'real' enough to be feminists. Pointing out pop culture tropes, to my eyes, is nowhere near radical feminism.

Anita's aim has always simply been to point out regressive tropes in pop culture, with this particular series focussing on video games. She's not an industry professional, so I don't really know how she would be expected to give advice on how women might get into the industry, but that's really beside the point.

She's also, never, so far as I can remember, 'blamed' men (or gamers) in anything but the abstract, patriarchal establishment sense, for anything she presents in her videos. Nor does she believe that just because a game contains problematic elements, that it is automatically a 'Bad Game™'. I've seen some legitimate criticism of her videos as almost entirely negative, with not enough good examples to build on, which I'm sympathetic to, and in fact some of the videos coming up in the series deal with some of the more positive examples of female characters in video games, which I'm very much looking forward to!

This was something you said that I see repeated pretty often, and it's an understandable perspective "There is no comparison in games between how many men are killed and sexualized vs women."

Beyond the fact that the series is explicitly "Tropes vs. Women in Video Games' there's a separate reason this isn't addressed very often. Muscle-bound men are created, generally, not to be objects of sexual desire, but rather as objects of male power fantasy. Now! A core tenet of most modern feminist beliefs is that patriarchy and established culture is plenty damaging to men, too. Regressive tropes like that promote unhealthy attitudes of appearance and behaviour for men as well as women. The fact is though, objectification of men and women in games, and all media, is very different, and the differences are worth pointing out.

Take a game like God of War 3. It's an example used in Anita's latest video. In the example scene she point out, a half-naked woman is beaten, chained up, forced through a bunch of hallways, and ultimately pushed into a door mechanism in order to keep it open, crushing her to death. Also though! Throughout the game, hundreds upon hundreds of largely anonymous male enemies are murdered in probably equally brutal ways.

Now, the difference is, I'd wager not a single man playing that game is going to be faced with the situation of an insane man hacking them apart with a sword. However, a frankly disgusting proportion of women, now, in modern times, are going to be faced with explicitly gendered or domestic violence and sexual assault. Scenes repeating these acts for cheap thrills or manufactured grittiness belittle these people's experiences and when they're the players, tend to make them pretty justifiably uncomfortable, to say the least.

Anyway, I hope you see my point there. In the end, your overall point of needing more women in the industry is a simple but good one. It's a huge component of what people want going forward. You even correctly identified the problem that women at the moment are discouraged from entering maths and science fields which generally feed into game development.

But figuring out that problem is not Anita Sarkeesian's job, and she has never positioned herself that way. There are more talks every year at GDC and PAX about women, currently in the industry, or aspiring to be, which is great and amazing. But if we want this to be an environment friendly to that kind of entry, it's the responsibility of every game developer, not just women, to make games that aren't going to make women who look at them and play them frightened and disgusted.

TL;DR

You're not a sexist, and you seem very smart, and have very good ideas about how to improve the number of diverse voices in the industry, but I fear your good points are going to be overshadowed by mis-characterisation of Sarkeesian and of the general feminist movement in games, without too much evidence to back it up.

I'm always open to evidence based criticism and discussion, or even just substantiated opinion, so I really would like you to continue to engage with the thread.
 
I

Intheflorsh

Banned
boogie2988 said:
When I speak here at neogaf I'll use this lingo. I'll communicate using the same language and memes as you do. When I post on reddit I'll do the same. When I post on 4chan I'll do the same. The term "Conspiracyfag" means something terrible to you here and I accept that. On 4chan it only means "A member of this forum that is good at figuring out hidden agendas" and nothing more. To imply otherwise is lunacy to me, but then again I understand the forum. If you don't post there I don't expect anyone to get it, and that's fine. I choose my words carefully and I'm glad to defend it when necessary. It should be obvious to anyone that I'd sooner cut out my own tongue than use that word against another human being as an actual slur.
Click to expand...

This strikes me as a flimsy excuse. It's obvious you weren't attacking anyone but that doesn't change the fact that, regardless of context, culture, or anything, the word is still a slur. It reminds me of grade school when everyone would say "that's gay" as a way of saying "that's dumb". We were too young and stupid to truly mean anything nasty by it, but that doesn't mean it wasn't contributing to a culture of hate. Don't claim you're an advocate of tolerance and then make exceptions, Boogie.
 
V

V_Arnold

Member
I do not see why Anita Sarkesiaan's job should be to improve the industry's female-male ratios or women's (and minority's) acceptance overall. She is a culture critic, adressing and revealing issues that stem from the endproduct.

It is not an easy task to point at otherwise "perfect" (or "considered to be perfect") games and say "these are built with a very outdated and unfair society in mind". This is what she does. That is still not a valid reason to dismiss her, and the games wont be considered worse even if the creative minds behind them *were* clearly motivated by a sexist and far from equal worldview.

It is okay to point out that many game designers do not even realize these issues or that they lack the power to push potential changes through the management. That realization is still not an attack on designers. But it might help future games and current designers to subsconsciously or consciously create better scenarios in future games. That seems to be the point of the Tropes video, not an attack on games or gamers.

Edit:

Toodles said:
http://www.quartertothree.com/game-...his-has-gone&p=3630513&viewfull=1#post3630513

iua4YLmOVFxMk.JPG


This dev and the team he's in are making up their own minds based on the content of Sarkeesian's selected analyses. Hurray for that, I say.
Click to expand...

THIS is what I was always hoping for. So awesome!
 
B

boogie2988

Banned
Intheflorsh said:
This strikes me as a flimsy excuse. It's obvious you weren't attacking anyone but that doesn't change the fact that, regardless of context, culture, or anything, the word is still a slur. It reminds me of grade school when everyone would say "that's gay" as a way of saying "that's dumb". We were too young and stupid to truly mean anything nasty by it, but that doesn't mean it wasn't contributing to a culture of hate. Don't claim you're an advocate of tolerance and then make exceptions, Boogie.
Click to expand...

If that word is a slur then every person who smokes in england is a monster. Or wait, is that considered fair context? If so why isn't my use of it?

I agree that words use power and I'd never use that word in jest anywhere else, not in a video or on twitter or most likely my personal life.

but if I were in england and I wanted to bum a smoke you'd bet your ass I'd ask for a fag and be entirely without remorse.
 
V

V_Arnold

Member
boogie2988 said:
If that word is a slur then every person who smokes in england is a monster. Or wait, is that considered fair context? If so why isn't my use of it?

I agree that words use power and I'd never use that word in jest anywhere else, not in a video or on twitter or most likely my personal life.

but if I were in england and I wanted to bum a smoke you'd bet your ass I'd ask for a fag and be entirely without remorse.
Click to expand...

I am sorry to come in, but the context you used that word it does not seem to imply that you were using its "cigarette" meaning.
 
I

Intheflorsh

Banned
boogie2988 said:
If that word is a slur then every person who smokes in england is a monster. Or wait, is that considered fair context? If so why isn't my use of it?

I agree that words use power and I'd never use that word in jest anywhere else, not in a video or on twitter or most likely my personal life.

but if I were in england and I wanted to bum a smoke you'd bet your ass I'd ask for a fag and be entirely without remorse.
Click to expand...

I'm sure the trend did not start because "fag" means cigarette in another country.
 
B

boogie2988

Banned
V_Arnold said:
I am sorry to come in, but the context you used that word it does not seem to imply that you were using its "cigarette" meaning.
Click to expand...

No, I used it in the context of the board. On that board each member of the board is considered one and it is used as a term of endearment. Whats even more interesting is you should read how their LBGT board uses the term, and how they sanction the use of the term on other boards. One would think that their LBGT board and the community on it would disdain the use of the word in that term, but they embrace it.

I'm paraphrasing here but the majority of the posters there (of which there are tens of thousands) approve of the use of the word because it not only robs of its only meaning but helps make them feel included.

its a rather fascinating culture and one that's beautiful to observe and participate in.
 
S

SwissLion

Member
boogie2988 said:
I do really enjoy Anita's videos. I don't always agree with what she says or even the way she says it, but I find they really open my mind to a lot of things. Sometimes she's just flat wrong in the ways she makes her points by misrepresenting the games or leaving out intent and that frustrates me, but her overall points are fantastic.

I hate all of the negative drama that surrounded her kickstarter and her career but I'm very grateful that there are women like here who speak their very valid opinions and are able to brave the storm that follows.

I am glad that her videos are having an impact on developers too! I just hope we never get to the point where developers are afraid to use these kinds of elements at all even when they would fit the story best. But if we reach that day, and women feel more comfortable gaming, that's a price I'd consider.
Click to expand...

It's perfectly reasonable to have legitimate critiques of her videos. The contextless and somewhat misrepresentative examples used in the Women as Background Decoration Part 1 video drew some reasonable criticism, and of course some unreasonable hatred.

For what it's worth, I don't believe those poor examples really diminished the point of that video too much. The points she's speaking about still apply, but it's pretty obvious she chose some poor visual examples to back that up at times. She's also been improving since, and Part 2 of that explanation, here, is way better about that kind of thing and is probably her best video yet, in my opinion.

Her point, also, and the point of all reasonable feminist critics, isn't that the run of the mill examples here are inherently villainous. Their ideal environment is not one devoid of sexualised female characters. These things only become this deeply problematic when they are by far the majority, and when they are being done poorly. It's eminently possible to create a well-rounded but still sexual female character. It's possible to depict violence against women and sexual assault in ways that don't trivialise it or exploit it. The fact that poorly done treatment of these subjects, for all the wrong reasons, are obvious tropes throughout the medium is the key problem. The patterns.

Her videos have also already played a part in influencing undeniably positive change in the industry. This awesome talk on The Last of Us (Spoilers you didn't even know could exist ahoy!) has a section by one of the creative leads, I believe, about the game's original direction, and the changes that came about through the input of Naughty Dog's rad female developers (awesome) the creative lead becoming the father of a little girl, and his subsequent research into feminist games and culture critique, ultimately leading to the incarnation of Ellie we see today.

I encourage those who have the time and fear not the spoilers within to watch the whole thing, but the part I'm particularly talking about begins at around 33:30.
 
I

Intheflorsh

Banned
boogie2988 said:
No, I used it in the context of the board. On that board each member of the board is considered one and it is used as a term of endearment. Whats even more interesting is you should read how their LBGT board uses the term, and how they sanction the use of the term on other boards. One would think that their LBGT board and the community on it would disdain the use of the word in that term, but they embrace it.

I'm paraphrasing here but the majority of the posters there (of which there are tens of thousands) approve of the use of the word because it not only robs of its only meaning but helps make them feel included.

its a rather fascinating culture and one that's beautiful to observe and participate in.
Click to expand...

I'm struggling to see this since when I take a look at a random /v/ page I see a lot of slurs that are definitely still being used as insults (namely the n word). This is the exception?
 
Z

zeldablue

Member
Painguy said:
My post is probs gonna get over shadowed or ignored by all the craziness in here (or because of its size lol), but I'd like to give my 2 cents. I’ve always tended to post in safe threads because I’ve always been afraid that If I said something that the majority didn’t agree with then I’d receive hurtful backlash, but I think I’m going to take that risk. I'm not the best writer so I apologize in advance. Hopefully I manage to get my point across.

Equality has been an important struggle that we as people have always dealt with. It's only natural to want to be on a level playing field as everyone else. With this in mind activist groups like feminists or other humanitarian groups make sense. They serve the purpose of bettering a group of people who have historically been at a disadvantage. Despite these groups trying put everyone on a level playing field there are some who wish to take advantage of that.

Feminism isn't inherently a bad thing. By its nature humanitarian activism is good. Unfortunately there is also such a thing as extreme activism (AKA taking things too far). Feminism is not an exception to this rule. In recent years it has become a trend to shame those who feel that some “Feminists” are taking advantage of their positions as “victims”. This has caused many people to become what I call “White Knights in Shining Armor” (AKA SJW). As evident in this thread, and other sites, anyone who is even the slightest bit perturbed by all the coddling some women are receiving are met with massive harassment. Boogie2988 makes a very good point here

Doctors spend a quarter of their lives training for their profession yet they make mistakes. It's absurd to think someone like a "journalist" won't do something corrupt. In general people tend to lie, cheat and steal. No one is exempt from that especially people in supposedly reputable positions. Presidents like Nixon, and Clinton are perfect examples(Lets not get started on politics). In an attempt to seem nice, cool, and sensitive many people blindly defend these extreme feminists, and “journalist”. Some even do it out of fear of being labeled a sexist. For example, if I were to announce that I dislike Anita Sarkeesian then many people would automatically label me as an insensitive asshole or a sexist. If I was a sexist then by definition that would imply that I hate my mom simply because she is a woman. Let me reassure you all that I love my mother without condition, but I certainly do not like Anita Sarkeesian.

In the gaming community Anita Sarkeesian has become almost synonymous with feminism. When I originally heard of her mission I was quite happy that there was someone pointing out the lack of female involvement in game development. I was expecting the majority of her talks to consist of ways to push women to take up math,science and interactive art courses in college so that they could qualify for positions in the industry. However, once she started asking for money to make youtube video’s I became a bit weary. Soon her videos began to roll out and the end result was simply her sitting in front of a camera spouting hate against men. There was nothing that would warrant a request for $6,000 let alone $150,000. Anita spends quite a bit of time blaming men and gamers for the lack of women in the games industry, and lack of female protagonists in games. She almost never addresses ways for women to break into the industry and expects male developers to sacrifice their creative ideas rather than propose effective ways for women to get jobs as developers so they can bring forth their own. She puts down games where women are killed and sexualized yet ignores thousdands of male characters who are mutilated and designed with muscular bodies. There is no comparison in games between how many men are killed and sexualized vs women. She is not a feminist, she is an extremist.

Unfortunately just as there are feminist extremist there are also the extreme internet trolls. These people deem it necessary to drive people like Sarkeesian out of their homes. This simply adds more fuel to the fire. Any valid complaint against people like Quinn or Sarkeesian can now easily be ignored. One thing I must give to Anita Sarkeesian is that her videos are presented in a calm manner. If these trolls presented themselves with a calm demeanor like she does then maybe people would be more likely to notice the flaws with her videos rather than sympathize with her. I don’t even like her and I feel sorry for her. This kind of harassment is unacceptable. Having an opinion should not warrant that level of hate. While I certainly can’t dismiss and ignore these women because of the circumstance that have befallen them there are women far more deserving of attention in the gaming industry. ...
Click to expand...

A lot of what you say makes sense.

But a big part of change is within our culture. How do we expect girls to come in and except working in an environment where they are constantly belittled and asked to prove if they actually like games or if they are just doing it for the attention. How do you deal with so many people judging you and saying you only got here because of your boobs. How do you deal with an environment that looks at you for your appearance while disregarding your actions and voice?

How do you deal with that prejudice? Do you sit quietly? Because that's what I do! But I don't enjoy it and it turns me away and makes me go into environments where I know people won't question me. I want to be in environments where I don't feel judged or questioned or silenced.

I appreciate Anita for simply going for the tropes and showing me how those tropes translate into real world sexism. As I now understand that the way I am treated is tied to how boys and girls are raised. Those things define our values and then unfortunate turn sour in "masculine" occupations.

Communications is an important thing to study and opens your eyes to the effects of the media and the great power they hold over us...especially as kids.

I think it's important to think about how much perceptions and culture push and pull people into their destinations. Much of life is controlled by where you were born, what your parents do and the opportunities that are given.

Those things are up to chance. We don't all get the same looks of approval when we go into any room. We have many perceptions that screw us over.

Play Ocarina of Time and take not of how much ageism is in the game. How many times does Link get ridiculed and forced to do a whole bunch of round about crap to prove people to not be ageist towards him. A lot. Compare that to being adult Link. Link is no longer treated unfairly, people just treat him better by default. Same in Majora's Mask, how much bending over backwards do you have to do as deku Link to progress? A lot. When your normal Link people simply hand you things.

It's easy to not realize how privileged we all are. I think just living in America or the UK automatically makes you much more privileged that 95% of the world. And how often do we even notice how much stuff is just taken for granted? We don't think about them consciously. :S
 
L

LiegeWaffle

Member
B

boogie2988

Banned
For those of you who hate 4chan though there's good news.

It appears that the story they're spinning about me currently is that i'm an "oppurtunistic shill" who probably "directly works for the opposition" and is using the "Art of war techniques of divide and conquer" to take the whole thing down from the inside.

if you thought defending myself HERE was difficult, I don't even know how to begin to approach that mess... especially once the actual harassment begins. :)

The least you guys are doing is questioning my loyalties to equality and saying that I'm two faced. That's pretty easily refutable.

Doesn't deter me from participating to spread a message of kindness though
 
S

SwissLion

Member
not_so_special said:
ok a found about zoe and wardell

https://storify.com/r4v5/why-the-games-industry-can-t-have-nice-things

mmm that put some perspective about how zoe seems to have double standars...
Click to expand...

This seems to be a pretty reasonable discussion between two people, one of whom had at the time been accused of sexually harassing members of his staff.

I'd be interested to hear what you meant by double standards.

Edit: And Boogie you're doing pretty okay from what I see.

A message of peace and understanding is always going to be an important part of events like these.

Also realise though, that a lot of people have been hurt in very real ways in the past month, and these people, and those who like them and their work, are not going to be quick to forget.
 
B

boogie2988

Banned
Intheflorsh said:
I'm struggling to see this since when I take a look at a random /v/ page I see a lot of slurs that are definitely still being used as insults (namely the n word). This is the exception?
Click to expand...

yes. this word is absolutely the one exception in this case. I beleive "Jew" is quite often used entirely out of context and I believe 'autist' is also likewise becoming a word that holds very little meaning in their contextual use of it. I'm not generally comfortable using any of these words though, and rarely do including the F one :)
 
M

marrec

Banned
Intheflorsh said:
This strikes me as a flimsy excuse. It's obvious you weren't attacking anyone but that doesn't change the fact that, regardless of context, culture, or anything, the word is still a slur. It reminds me of grade school when everyone would say "that's gay" as a way of saying "that's dumb". We were too young and stupid to truly mean anything nasty by it, but that doesn't mean it wasn't contributing to a culture of hate.
Click to expand...

When I engage with 4chan I choose not to use their language. My use or non-use doesn't mean shit to 4chan of course. The word "fag" is typed there about once every 5 posts and my choice doesn't affect that statistic... but I'd never be able to take myself seriously if I started using it to engage with people.

Whenever, about 30 pages back, we were talking about 'being the change you want to see' this specific dichotomy came to mind. People use that language and then say "LOL dummies it doesn't mean FAG it means FAG" and for a lot of people ya, it's just a stand-in word but every time we or anyone uses it casually you're proving an example and excuse for someone to use it as hate-speech and the line between the casual and the hate gets blurred... especially on 4chan.

It's so terribly easy to not use it. I don't want to make a stand in this thread for linguistic stagnation but if we want to see a culture shift in gaming then we need to start by not using hate-speech just because it's a convenient way to talk to a specific group of people. Using their language is just an obvious way to pander and is not necessary if your message is salient.
 
N

Neoriceisgood

Member
boogie2988 said:
For those of you who hate 4chan though there's good news.

It appears that the story they're spinning about me currently is that i'm an "oppurtunistic shill" who probably "directly works for the opposition" and is using the "Art of war techniques of divide and conquer" to take the whole thing down from the inside.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't call that good news as much as one of the reasons I'm not fond of 4chan.

Why are they accusing you of whatever that means? I'm extremely confused.
 
W

Widge

Member
Intheflorsh said:
I'm sure the trend did not start because "fag" means cigarette in another country.
Click to expand...

Ha, and yes, you can go down town to the meat van and pick up a bunch of faggots too.

Context is an odd thing but I think the salient point is a word that is often used as a slur to demographic being picked up, used so commonly and throwaway until it becomes an acceptable part of everyday dialect.

I have a huge array of homosexual friends who take great distaste in the way that things that are bad, terrible or disappointing are often described as "gay". "You can't come out tonight? Oh, that's so gay..."

Ok, the context is fine in one respect, but you begin associating a demographic of people as a "bad thing".

I watched a bit of an argument of this play out on twitter, got as far as "well, people on South Park use it and that is ok" before I had to carry on.

Again, different levels of people will take different levels of offense.
 
W

Widge

Member
boogie2988 said:
For those of you who hate 4chan though there's good news.

It appears that the story they're spinning about me currently is that i'm an "oppurtunistic shill" who probably "directly works for the opposition" and is using the "Art of war techniques of divide and conquer" to take the whole thing down from the inside.
Click to expand...

and this is why I'm not a fan of the mentality that is going on out there. Very Anakin "if you are not with me, then you are my enemy" type stuff.

For example, every press piece that goes up that doesn't run with the so far dug up hearsay by some users or with a "gamergate is right" gets slated with a "another one for archive.today/blocking".

You're only crime is that you're willing to listen to a multitude of angles.
 
B

boogie2988

Banned
Neoriceisgood said:
I wouldn't call that good news as much as one of the reasons I'm not fond of 4chan.

Why are they accusing you of whatever that means? I'm extremely confused.
Click to expand...

I believe that the people involved are starting to get frustrated and agitated and they're currently employing some sort of "you're either with us or against us" and since I am clearly NOT for their side (or any other side) its frustrating for them to deal with this.

its certainly not how the majority feel but its how some of them feel and I'm curious to see how far they'll take the notion. Its entirely possible my efforts will be for naught and my attempts to preach kindness and moderation to them will be lost and I'll have done all of this damage to my reputation for no good reason.

But that's the price you pay when you dance with the devil, I guess.
 
I

Intheflorsh

Banned
boogie2988 said:
yes. this word is absolutely the one exception in this case. I beleive "Jew" is quite often used entirely out of context and I believe 'autist' is also likewise becoming a word that holds very little meaning in their contextual use of it. I'm not generally comfortable using any of these words though, and rarely do including the F one :)
Click to expand...

You're really not selling the "beautiful to participate and observe in" aspect very well.

I understand your reasoning but I don't agree with it. Since this conversation has nothing to do with the subject of the thread, I'm going to drop it.
 
S

SwissLion

Member
boogie2988 said:
I believe that the people involved are starting to get frustrated and agitated and they're currently employing some sort of "you're either with us or against us" and since I am clearly NOT for their side (or any other side) its frustrating for them to deal with this.

its certainly not how the majority feel but its how some of them feel and I'm curious to see how far they'll take the notion. Its entirely possible my efforts will be for naught and my attempts to preach kindness and moderation to them will be lost and I'll have done all of this damage to my reputation for no good reason.

But that's the price you pay when you dance with the devil, I guess.
Click to expand...

For what it's worth, I've seen vagueish talk around other places about how your stance has shifted on things over the course of the month for the better.

And it is a better stance, based more on actual information and overall a message of de-escalation and calm.

So whatever reputation you lose 'over there' I'd say you'll find even more people interested in what you say as one of the more reasonable voices.
 
B

boogie2988

Banned
Intheflorsh said:
You're really not selling the "beautiful to participate and observe in" aspect very well.

I understand your reasoning but I don't agree with it. Since this conversation has nothing to do with the subject at hand, I'm going to drop it.
Click to expand...

Allright, I appreciate that. Please know that I do see your point and even agree with it to the extent that I would never use this word outside of this one single context.
 
A

alstein

Member
SwissLion said:
This seems to be a pretty reasonable discussion between two people, one of whom had at the time been accused of sexually harassing members of his staff.

I'd be interested to hear what you meant by double standards.

Edit: And Boogie you're doing pretty okay from what I see.

A message of peace and understanding is always going to be an important part of events like these.

Also realise though, that a lot of people have been hurt in very real ways in the past month, and these people, and those who like them and their work, are not going to be quick to forget.
Click to expand...

That took place after the lawsuit was dropped with no financial settlement or gag order and apology from the woman who sued.
Also, some of the more abusive stuff I read was deleted, I remember seeing it in real-time.
 
B

boogie2988

Banned
SwissLion said:
For what it's worth, I've seen vagueish talk around other places about how your stance has shifted on things over the course of the month for the better.

And it is a better stance, based more on actual information and overall a message of de-escalation and calm.

So whatever reputation you lose 'over there' I'd say you'll find even more people interested in what you say as one of the more reasonable voices.
Click to expand...

thank you, that helps a lot. Doing my best and while I know my best isn't very good I'm glad to know that its being appreciated somewhere.

This neogaf thread, as difficult as it has been at times, I believe has changed me for the better. I will also say the same about having posted on 4chan, though.

probably the only good thing I can say about all of this right now is that its helped make me a better version of myself and for that I am grateful.
 
C

Corpekata

Banned
alstein said:
That took place after the lawsuit was dropped with no financial settlement or gag order and apology from the woman who sued.
Also, some of the more abusive stuff I read was deleted, I remember seeing it in real-time.
Click to expand...

No it didn't. Conversation is July 2013, suit dropped in September 2013
 
S

SwissLion

Member
Corpekata said:
No it didn't. Conversation is July 2013, suit dropped in September 2013
Click to expand...

Glad I am not going crazy.

The confusion may have arisen from the fact storify just takes the tweets as they exist at the moment, so edits to the stories of that time which wouldn't have existed are showing up in some kind of fucked up twitter time travel.
 
K

kick51

Banned
Neoriceisgood said:
Why are they accusing you of whatever that means? I'm extremely confused.
Click to expand...


They have quite the echo chamber going over there. Even neogaf's stringent mod policies have allowed people to come in and discuss why they are siding with gamergate, as long as they are actually discussing it. Over there, any slightly negative or perceived-to-be-negative comment is piled on with "shill" and "you paid $10 to troll" (an accusation that anyone negative is coming from somethingawful to troll.) They have a post that describes different types of shilling and how to respond.

So, instead of remaining calm when they see questions or concerns, they go nuts with conspiracy theories about everything since they don't know how to respond rationally. If you're a public figure, they try to dig up dirt and allege crimes and all that good stuff. (Think of the Simpsons episode where Mr. Burns runs for governor.)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Zoe Quinn #meToo / Alec Holowka suicide -- Update: Article questions ZQ's account of events (link in OP)
NSFW Drama 74 75 76 77 78
4K
509K
Coolio McAwesome replied
Bitcoin - Unmasking Satoshi Nakamoto | Finally his real identity
12
3K
keraj37 replied
  • Locked
Favorite failed speech checks from Fallout New Vegas
0
2K
Bossking replied
  • Locked
NeoGAF - Stand and be counted
6
5K
NichM replied
  • Sticky
Buy/Sell/Trade Thread 2017 | Read the Rules in the OP | We Live For This
199 200 201 202 203
10K
3M
BorntoPlay replied
Top Bottom