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Iknos · Jun 5, 2009

The tech is there and is proven. My only issue is how Sony plans to roll this out.

Do they include it with every console? Will it be a peripheral sold separately? Does every PS3 owner need this? If not, and it is optional, how many developers will actually support it?

Another concern is that every single PS3 controller supports motion controls already. Yet over the last 2+ years we didn't see much support for it. The few that did, did a great job IMO (WO, Warhawk), but the great majority of games didn't make much of an effort to use a feature that was standard among all controllers. Heck, it was more of a standard than rumble.

We didn't see too many new experiences either. PSN would have been a great outlet for simple motion controlled games. WO was the only solid use of it...that Toy Racer and Rubber Duck game were very bland titles. I thought that they should have used the Sixaxis for some gesture controls for home, that would have been very cool. Shake the controller to dance, or lower it quick to sit down, or quickly raise it to stand up. Wave it to wave "Hi". Every single PS3 owner has this motion capability but it wasn't used.

So to me, as it stands, it's a peripheral just like the EyeToy, a Guitar Hero Guitar, Dance Dance Revolution mat, etc. These peripherals enjoy limited game support and limited uses. I can't see Sony including these with every PS3, and if they did, we aren't guaranteed much use of it, just as we saw with the Sixaxis.

I like the tech, and I liked the demo...but ultimately it may very well end up like the EyeToy (which is impressive as well, has a few great uses, but is not supported by every game and isn't highly adopted among the userbase).

spoon! · Jun 5, 2009

ultrasonic? are these things going to piss off my neighbour's dog?

Raist · Jun 5, 2009

Napoleonthechimp said:
I don't believe in Sony or Microsoft's ability to pull it off. Then again I don't like most of the stuff Nintendo puts out.

Well, Sony have shown what thye can do, and the result is actually quite great, so...

Now yeah, the problem will be to see how they and 3rd parties support that.

Do they include it with every console? Will it be a peripheral sold separately? Does every PS3 owner need this? If not, and it is optional, how many developers will actually support it?

Bundle it with every PS3 wouldn't be a good move IMO, especially since it needs the PSeye as well. THey could always do an optionnal bundle with all the required stuff. But yeah, if the adoption rate isn't great, that might turn off a couple of devs/pubs.

ultrasonic? are these things going to piss off my neighbour's dog?

Yeah I thought about that as well :lol I guess they'll use a safe frequency.

Thrakier · Jun 5, 2009

They are shitting all over Sonys "wand":

http://www.vg247.com/2009/06/05/e3-2009-–-who-won-the-press-conferences/

I don't get the hate though. What they showed was basically a "working" Wiimote + Camera Support for further enhancements. They showed the potential usage in games, they pronounched that it could be used for "real" games and not just as a gimmick. It seems to work great, developers are already working with it and it will release in less than a year.

I don't think that "natal" is worse, that's not the point, it's just that I can't imagine when we will play with this and what type of game. They really need an additional controler to satisfy my needs but they pronounced that it's about playing WITHOUT a controller.

Oh and about the molyneux hype shit. Sorry, but imo it's not THAT impressive that they have a camera with a microphone (so that it can react to voice commands) or which can recgonize if you laugh. That's really a neat and cool thing, sure, but that wasn't the thing about molyneux milo guy. What he really showed and what hyped the people is that he somewaht claimed that he made a thinking and intelligent KI. And that point has NOTHING to do with natal. And we won't see that for sure in this or even in the next generation. Milo is not Natal.

gofreak · Jun 5, 2009

Raist said:
Yeah, sony's problem is that their 1:1 tracking won't be possible at all without the wands. But then again, I'm not convinced Natal will pull it off.

From what they've shown, Natal can't do '1:1' mapping in the sense we talk about it with M+ and Sony's wands.

It can precisely see what you're body is doing, but in terms of understanding that motion and mapping it to their internal software model of your motion (the actual mapping of that motion to the virtual object, which is where the whole notion of '1:1 mapping' comes from) it's not nearly as precise, and still has to make estimates and predictions on things that M+ and the wands have more precise data for. Like I say, though, M+ and the wands only have that precision for their controllers. M+/wii has no knowledge of the rest of the scene. PSEye does have some knowledge of the rest of the scene but it is more limited than what Natal provides, and thus is a bigger challenge for the software to make decisions on.

So in terms of 1:1 motion mapping, Wands > M+ > Natal (doesn't really have any in the same sense of wands/m+), in terms of broader scene data, Natal > PSeye > M+ (doesn't have any).

bottles · Jun 5, 2009

Kinitari said:
So in your head, being beaten to the punch is the same as copying? Cool. You really need to lay off this copying ish. Everyone who is even slightly reasonable realize that it's a ridiculous and childish argument to bring up.

Beaten to the punch implies that Sony has been working on this particular device since before Nintendo unveiled the Revolution at TGS 2005. I doubt that. Anyhow, releasing a wand with the same abilities as Wii Motion Plus is a clear reaction to Nintendos actions, not unlike their decision to slap accelerometers on to the Sixaxis at the last minute. If you cant (or, like most fanboys, refuse to) see that, Im sorry to say youre daft.

dabig2 · Jun 5, 2009

PuppetMaster said:
Quaz posted this in the Natal thread but it should be posted again here:
http://stanford-online.stanford.edu/courses/ee380/040121-ee380-100.asx

This is an extremely interesting presentation given by Richard Marks of SCE several years ago in the PS2 era. If you are the type who gets bored by technical presentations, skip to about the 1 hour mark. He starts showing off his research with the ZCam (build by 3DV the same company MS bought to do Natal).

It is quite interesting how Sony was building demos using this technology way in the PS2 era. They even built a game almost exactly like the ball blocking game MS demoed at e3.

ah, had been looking for that vid. Thanks

Napoleonthechimp · Jun 5, 2009

Raist said:
Well, Sony have shown what thye can do, and the result is actually quite great, so...

Now yeah, the problem will be to see how they and 3rd parties support that.

What I meant was I don't believe in their ability to integrate it with other more traditional games. The lack of a nunchuck type of controller seems to be one of the main issues I have with their take on motion controls.

Raist · Jun 5, 2009

gofreak said:
From what they've shown, Natal can't do '1:1' mapping in the sense we talk about it with M+ and Sony's wands.

It can precisely see what you're body is doing, but in terms of understanding that motion and mapping it to their internal software model of your motion (the actual mapping of that motion to the virtual object, which is where the whole notion of '1:1 mapping' comes from) it's not nearly as precise, and still has to make estimates and predictions on things that M+ and the wands have more precise data for. Like I say, though, M+ and the wands only have that precision for their controllers. M+/wii has no knowledge of the rest of the scene. PSEye does have some knowledge of the rest of the scene but it is more limited than what Natal provides, and thus is a bigger challenge for the software to make decisions on.

So in terms of 1:1 motion mapping, Wands > M+ > Natal (doesn't really have any in the same sense of wands/m+), in terms of broader scene data, Natal > PSeye > M+ (doesn't have any).

So basically you mean that it's actually going to use pre-canned stuff? That's what I thought at some point as well but I'm not sure.

The thing that worries me a bit about Sony's wand is that it might be too precise for its own sake for FPS apps. It jittered a LOT in their demo and I'm not sure they can fix that without sacrificing accuracy.

Napoleonthechimp said:
What I meant was I don't believe in their ability to integrate it with other more traditional games. The lack of a nunchuck type of controller seems to be one of the main issues I have with their take on motion controls.

Ha, yeah, agreed. As for the lack of nunchuck, I'm not too worried since from what they've shown it looks like it can be easily replaced by a second wand. Arrow shooting stuff for example. And it should be better than a nunchuk which has very limited possibilities (tech wise I mean).
Now, the problem is that it would use 2 controllers already for a single players. Did they even mention how many controllers their system can track?

Starchasing · Jun 5, 2009

Raist said:
So basically you mean that it's actually going to use pre-canned stuff? That's what I thought at some point as well but I'm not sure.

The thing that worries me a bit about Sony's wand is that it might be too precise for its own sake for FPS apps. It jittered a LOT in their demo and I'm not sure they can fix that without sacrificing accuracy.?

welcome to 2006 ir pointing wii

gofreak · Jun 5, 2009

Raist said:
So basically you mean that it's actually going to use pre-canned stuff? That's what I thought at some point as well but I'm not sure.

I don't think I'd use the word pre-canned.

They have a model of human motion there that they use to fill in blanks the cam data throws up. Where necessary, where there is ambiguity or uncertainty in the cam data they'll predict or estimate what the motion should be based on their human motion model. That's referring to a built-in, 'preset' body of data, but the whole output isn't 'scripted' or precanned. It's a mix of what the cam tells them and the motion model tells them.

I wouldn't hazard to say there are NEVER gaps in the data that m+ or even sony's wands report that can lead to ambiguity, but they should be a lot less frequent and a lot smaller such that your robustness in mapping motion is higher and truer to the actual physical motion, and thus '1:1'*. There's also a lot less variation in the availability of data depending on the user's motion, whereas with a camera-only solution there can be dramatic variation depending on what's happening the scene and what the user is doing (e.g. when you lose sight of part of something you're tracking).

*With the caveat, as before, that confidence in M+'s data falls off dramatically after short periods if there is no reset.

cakefoo · Jun 5, 2009

bottles said:
Beaten to the punch implies that Sony has been working on this particular device since before Nintendo unveiled the Revolution at TGS 2005. I doubt that. Anyhow, releasing a wand with the same abilities as Wii Motion Plus is a clear reaction to Nintendos actions, not unlike their decision to slap accelerometers on to the Sixaxis at the last minute. If you cant (or, like most fanboys, refuse to) see that, Im sorry to say youre daft.

http://stanford-online.stanford.edu/courses/ee380/040121-ee380-100.asx

Start at 25:00. That was made in 2000 by the Eyetoy creator.

Go to 45:00. Wide demographic, long lines to demo the product. Kind of reminds me of someone...

Next up, 56:00. Looks a bit like Balance Board snowboarding through the demo. Oh, and watch at the end of that demo, where you find out it was taking goofy snapshots of you the entire time. Reminds me of a DSi demo by Iwata.

1:06:20. They had been experimenting with the 3D camera MS bought since at least as early as 2003 and trying to come up with fun things to do, including full body motion capture.

There are plenty of other hints that indicate that the remote probably wasn't a Sony-copying-Nintendo thing. Marks has had years of feedback and criticism from developers and focus testing that the PS3 remote was simply the next evolution of the eyetoy.

McBradders · Jun 5, 2009

cakefoo said:
http://stanford-online.stanford.edu/courses/ee380/040121-ee380-100.asx

Start at 25:00. That was made in 2000 by the Eyetoy creator.

Go to 45:00. Wide demographic, long lines to demo the product. Kind of reminds me of someone...

Next up, 56:00. Looks a bit like Balance Board snowboarding through the demo. Oh, and watch at the end of that demo, where you find out it was taking goofy snapshots of you the entire time. Reminds me of a DSi demo by Iwata.

1:06:20. They had been experimenting with the 3D camera MS bought since at least as early as 2003 and trying to come up with fun things to do, including full body motion capture.

There are plenty of other hints that indicate that the remote probably wasn't a Sony-copying-Nintendo thing. Marks has had years of feedback and criticism from developers and focus testing that the PS3 remote was simply the next evolution of the eyetoy.

He's been at Sony for years, and years and years. EyeToy was his baby, he's been working on little to nothing else since he was brought on board.

spwolf · Jun 5, 2009

Napoleonthechimp said:
What I meant was I don't believe in their ability to integrate it with other more traditional games. The lack of a nunchuck type of controller seems to be one of the main issues I have with their take on motion controls.

um, if you saw controllers, each has nub and d-pad... whats the issue again? You get 2 in the box likely.

Wollan · Jun 5, 2009

Napoleonthechimp said:
What I meant was I don't believe in their ability to integrate it with other more traditional games. The lack of a nunchuck type of controller seems to be one of the main issues I have with their take on motion controls.

I shared your worry. The wiimotes main flaw is the lack of a second analog (on the mote itself). It's what holds the wiimote back from full game compatibility.

It seems like the images (check the OP or gofreaks image posts) indicate however that the Sonymote does actually have a stick on it. This means that a nunchack is not needed as you can just use a second Sonymote and by doing so having a dual stick setup as well as all the advantages of a remote (you would also have dual pointer functionality).

Kinitari · Jun 5, 2009

bottles said:
Beaten to the punch implies that Sony has been working on this particular device since before Nintendo unveiled the Revolution at TGS 2005. I doubt that. Anyhow, releasing a wand with the same abilities as Wii Motion Plus is a clear reaction to Nintendos actions, not unlike their decision to slap accelerometers on to the Sixaxis at the last minute. If you cant (or, like most fanboys, refuse to) see that, Im sorry to say youre daft.

First of all, I 100% think that the Wii had an influence on Sony making/releasing this new device, market reaction happens.

But lets pretend you are right about Sony making the wand was 100% influenced by the Wii-mote after they saw how successful it is (so it is a few years in the making, forgot what year it was). So what? Seriously - what now?

This is what I meant when I said it was a useless and childish argument, and I don't even know what your final point is.

AbortedWalrusFetus · Jun 5, 2009

Personally from everything I can tell the Sony Motion Controller will be a lot more practical to use for gaming than Natal will be. I don't think Natal will have the accuracy to pick up small intricate motions and will most likely rely on somewhat broader movements to achieve what it does. I'm sure there will be some neat applications for Natal, but I also think it's scope will be far more limited than what Sony displayed. I've been looking around however, and almost everywhere I look it seems that people are more impressed with the Natal technology. I think it's the initial wow factor of Natal that has people excited about it and I think they haven't sat down and thought about how it could be practically applied when compared to Sony's offering. People are saying that having a controller at all is "old-fashioned" but I think when they sit down and play with it they'll realize that having a controller would really improve certain aspects.

One thing I noticed was that Microsoft gave the press hands-on time with Natal, and it doesn't seem that Sony did the same thing. Personally I would love to see hands on impressions comparing the two systems. I may be mistaken, but I think whoever did it would come away feeling more satisfied by what Sony offered.

Arkham · Jun 5, 2009

spwolf said:
um, if you saw controllers, each has nub and d-pad... whats the issue again? You get 2 in the box likely.

I wouldn't be surprised to see these 2 being sold as a single controller package, but being the 'break-apart' controller that everyone's been talking about Sony working on.

I'm sure the break-apart and the wand(s) are going to end up being the same product.

SSJ1Goku · Jun 5, 2009

Arkham said:
I'm sure the break-apart and the wand(s) are going to end up being the same product.

Yeah that's how I see it too. They could then kill off the Dual Shock 3 easily.

Gwanatu T · Jun 5, 2009

Pristine_Condition said:
I'm doing what now?

I don't think you understand what I'm talking about at all. Personally, I think all three motion-sensing technologies are intriguing, and I don't care who does what, if they can make this stuff work and make it fun to play with.

I'm just saying Dr. Marks and Sony deserve the credit for what they has done in both R&D and in the marketplace. I'm saying Dr. Marks and Sony deserve credit for things we can prove they deserve credit for, nothing more.

They most certainly do, and this is the most useful tech out of the 3 if you ask me. I re-watched the presentation last night (was showing my brother) and talking with him about how it works. I didn't get to watch the entire presentation live because I was at work at the time, and really just heard most of it (had headphones on), but watching it really was incredibly convincing. I think that most impressive part was still the flashlight for me, as it truly shows how the 3D spatialization with this technology works and how it can really benefit games. He didn't just shine the flashlight around the room, he moved the flashlight around, over and under and all over the place in the room. The first person bit was cool too, but I couldn't tell if he was walking around on stage to move the avatar in the room or if he had a joystick on the controller that moved that.

Pristine_Condition said:
This is in contrast to a few naysayers who have stunk up this thread with their faith-based, (not fact-based,) notions that Sony had no intention of doing any of this without the Wii's influence. This ridiculous belief exists despite Sony's proven and historical track record of R&D spending and tech innovation, tons of high-profile tech demos and juicy quotes from the brains behind the tech, and actual retail products that at least showed them working toward that goal consistently over this decade, starting even before the Wii made one red cent in the marketplace.

So which is it now? Is Sony distancing themselves, or copying everything Nintendo does to be like them? I thought the SIXAXIS was "slapped on" to mimic Nintendo, ect, ect, ad infinitum.

Now I remember what the initial deal was here. What I've been saying, and I think a few others have as well, is that Sony never really took this technology seriously until now; infact no one did until Nintendo made a leap of faith by creating the Wii and pushing motion controls as the standard interface. Sure Sony brought out the EyeToy and fun little motion sensing games, but it wasn't the main console interface, and it was obvious with the way the SixAxis was announced that the PS3 wasn't designed for motion control, rather it was their stop-gap solution to "compete" with the Wii until this new wand technology was ready. They may have been researching it for years, but I can guarantee you they never thought it would be commercial success like it has been until the Wii came out and proved it. There's no coincidence that this stuff is being shown off now rather than 3 years ago when this generation started; that's because Nintendo defined the generation as the beginning of motion controls, and that's what it's going to become.

That was my entire point, and I apologize if I've strayed off topic.

Gwanatu T · Jun 5, 2009

Pristine_Condition said:
From his last responses here, I do think he's reasonable and thoughtful, even if we don't agree on everything exactly. I wish everyone here was the same...I don't care if we agree, just be reasonable and thoughtful.

Thanks, I appreciate it and I can definitely say the same about you.

cakefoo said:
http://stanford-online.stanford.edu/courses/ee380/040121-ee380-100.asx

Start at 25:00. That was made in 2000 by the Eyetoy creator.

Go to 45:00. Wide demographic, long lines to demo the product. Kind of reminds me of someone...

Next up, 56:00. Looks a bit like Balance Board snowboarding through the demo. Oh, and watch at the end of that demo, where you find out it was taking goofy snapshots of you the entire time. Reminds me of a DSi demo by Iwata.

1:06:20. They had been experimenting with the 3D camera MS bought since at least as early as 2003 and trying to come up with fun things to do, including full body motion capture.

There are plenty of other hints that indicate that the remote probably wasn't a Sony-copying-Nintendo thing. Marks has had years of feedback and criticism from developers and focus testing that the PS3 remote was simply the next evolution of the eyetoy.

See this is the problem I have with Sony right now though. They've had this stuff for years, but they didn't think it would be successful. Why else did it take this long when this guy had working tech demos nearly a decade ago? You could see that Dr. Marks was annoyed with Sony at E3, listen to his voice when he says "we had the first motion sensing controller." You can tell he's got a "told you so" kind of thing going on with Sony, and now they are finally taking him seriously. It's a shame, really, because I think if they had taken this seriously in the first place and debuted it with the PS3, this generation would be very different. Sony would still be on top, we probably wouldn't have as many stupid waggle/party/shovelware titles, and the Wii wouldn't have to exist because there's no reason to buy one when a competitor's system is better in every regard. I guess I'm mad at Sony for holding up progress, but the past can't be changed and I'm just hoping this thing is standard with the next console for the sake of having good games.

gofreak · Jun 5, 2009

They marketed and evangelised eyetoy on PS2, and I think it taught them a couple of things: namely you can't replace the controller completely with a camera. The set of games that could work with it alone was too small. You saw the eyetoy style games, and you saw 'sporty' and fitness games that only depended on the cam, but that was about it.

So I think that discouraged them from trying to push camera-controls as a standard replacement for dualshock. Beyond the eyetoy games, developer adoption beyond very complementary uses in games was very limited.

For the last few years, Marks has been talking a lot about mixing new kinds of controller with the camera so you can have a simpler and novel system that could replace your regular controller in a broader set of games than the camera alone. All that stuff on stage he talked about 'we learned we needed buttons', 'we learned you still need something in your hand', wasn't just a reaction to Microsoft's demo, it is really the route he's been working down for quite some time from what they learned during eyetoy and subsequent r&d.

Nintendo's success has obviously pushed Sony to try and commercialise this work where they may have been sitting on the fence before. I think it also was a timing thing..this stuff wasn't ready for PS3's launch, and even if it had been, the extra cost of it on top of PS3's already large cost would have likely dissuaded Sony from the risk of including it. It's not so risky any more thanks to Nintendo dipping in first.

VanMardigan · Jun 5, 2009

Does the ultrasonic part have to be in the form of a retarded looking bulb? It may seem superficial, but that's the part of the controller I hate most. If they could replace that with a short bar or other shape so the controller didn't look so damn goofy.

Anyway, looking forward to what Sony releases next year for this. I'll have my WiiHD, whether Nintendo wants it or not.

Pristine_Condition · Jun 5, 2009

cakefoo said:
http://stanford-online.stanford.edu/courses/ee380/040121-ee380-100.asx

Start at 25:00. That was made in 2000 by the Eyetoy creator.

Go to 45:00. Wide demographic, long lines to demo the product. Kind of reminds me of someone...

Next up, 56:00. Looks a bit like Balance Board snowboarding through the demo. Oh, and watch at the end of that demo, where you find out it was taking goofy snapshots of you the entire time. Reminds me of a DSi demo by Iwata.

1:06:20. They had been experimenting with the 3D camera MS bought since at least as early as 2003 and trying to come up with fun things to do, including full body motion capture.

There are plenty of other hints that indicate that the remote probably wasn't a Sony-copying-Nintendo thing. Marks has had years of feedback and criticism from developers and focus testing that the PS3 remote was simply the next evolution of the eyetoy.

You're wasting your time with that bottles guy. He doesn't care about facts or history. He doesn't care about documentation to back up those facts. He's just going to repeat the same thing over and over and over again. To summarize:

**He honestly somehow believes that a brilliant, award winning scientist like Dr. Marks was willing to just waste his time and his life (he's been working on motion sensing since his PhD project) working in stages on this exact same project, for this exact same stated goal, in the lab for the greater part of a decade, for nothing. He implies that Dr. Marks was content to spin his wheels apparently, working on products for a company with no intention of bringing any of this out, until Nintendo came out with their Wii Motion + plan last year. He doesn't realize how insulting that implication is to Dr. Marks, or doesn't care, apparently.

**He somehow wants to convince people that Sony has been willing to bankroll Dr Marks, naming him the head of his own research lab and spending millions on R&D over the last decade, all for nothing...until Nintendo came out with the Wii and had success. Never mind that the fruits of that research and Sony's lab investment led to real motion-sensing products that sold millions before the Wii was even announced.

**He seems to want everyone to ignore everything we've seen over two console generations of Sony marketing and supporting the EyeToy, the PSEye, and their games, because he believes none of that mattered until Nintendo came out with the Wii. Pointing out historical facts that Sony started all this EyeToy stuff and had success on their own with over 10 million EyeToys sold and millions in EyeToy software, years and years before the Wii made a single dime is ignored completely by this poster.

**He apparently believes that Dr. Marks wasn't serious about precision 3D motion-sensing until Nintendo had success with the Wii, despite the fact that he has stated in no uncertain terms that "We need a really good 3D sensor, and if you have that, that'll be as important as the Z-buffer is for graphics." He apparently chooses to ignore that Dr. Marks stated that in 2004 too, years before the Wii's success.

Your video is going to do nothing to convince him, or to get him to quit shitting up this thread with his ridiculous belief. According to him, everybody is copying Nintendo. Facts be damned.

gofreak · Jun 5, 2009

The bulb bit is actually a light source or LED array for more accurate visual tracking by the camera. It's not the ultrasonic stuff. If there is ultrasonic stuff there it should be invisible to the eye, or very discreet anyway.

I think it's going to be tricky for the bulb not to be a prominent feature on the final controller if they're depending on visibility of large parts of it (but they may not be, I dunno).

Schattenjäger · Jun 5, 2009

so I wonder if this new wand will save the PS3 from being a failure - probably not.

belvedere · Jun 5, 2009

Schattenjagger said:
so I wonder if this new wand will save the PS3 from being a failure - probably not.

Have fun during your long vacation

Duke Togo · Jun 5, 2009

Schattenjagger said:
so I wonder if this new wand will save the PS3 from being a failure - probably not.

Why shit up the discussion with this? Why?

Zaptruder · Jun 5, 2009

Nintendo helped to create a market situation that paved the way for Sony to bring to market (or in the process of) something like the wand.

Even as someone that leans Sony, I won't deny that much. But there's plenty of evidence to suggest that this sort of direction was as much a result of technology convergence as it was Nintendo's stroke of fortune.

Without Nintendo, this sort of tech may have languished in the R&D labs a bit longer, until some other market inspiration paved way for like technology, or until some bright spark at Sony or MS decided that this tech was 'ripe' enough.

But goddamn, some posters are quite obnoxious in making an otherwise pretty salient point.

JoshuaJSlone · Jun 5, 2009

VanMardigan said:
Does the ultrasonic part have to be in the form of a retarded looking bulb? It may seem superficial, but that's the part of the controller I hate most. If they could replace that with a short bar or other shape so the controller didn't look so damn goofy.

I think the bulb being goofily noticeable enough is part of what makes it effective; it's hard for the camera to lose track of it. Make it too small or easy to hide away and you've got the wiimote's problem of easily being able to break sensor/camera contact.

Zoramon089 · Jun 5, 2009

Pristine_Condition said:
*wall of text*

The issue isn't whether Dr. Marks was serious about this or not, it's whether Sony was, and they weren't willing to take the risk and give motion sensing a serious go until after Nintendo showed how much of a success it could be with consumers with the Wii. Regardless of when they started looking into it, regardless of how much they spent working on it, regardless of how adamant Marks was about this, all signs point to Sony taking a wait and see approach with it. First with the Eyetoy (since you so greatly believe it's relevant to the discussion) and then with the Wii...

Brofist · Jun 5, 2009

Schattenjagger said:
so I wonder if this new wand will save the PS3 from being a failure - probably not.

You need to join the genius in the other Sony topic who said Sony should cut their losses now and drop the PS3 :lol

furrygiblets · Jun 5, 2009

Schattenjagger said:
so I wonder if this new wand will save the PS3 from being a failure - probably not.

Schattenjäger · Jun 5, 2009

Duke Togo said:
Why shit up the discussion with this? Why?

Sorry I didn't realize I was shitting anything up. I just think they are showing too little, too late. I don't want to see 3rd parties focusing on a peripheral. The technology is not even ready yet. I think Sony's core is gamers - and most gamers do not want this.

furrygiblets · Jun 5, 2009

Schattenjagger said:
Sorry I didn't realize I was shitting anything up. I just think they are showing too little, too late. I don't want to see 3rd parties focusing on a peripheral. The technology is not even ready yet. I think Sony's core is gamers - and most gamers do not want this.

So apparently you're the voice of "most" gamers now?

filopilo · Jun 5, 2009

See this is the problem I have with Sony right now though. They've had this stuff for years, but they didn't think it would be successful. Why else did it take this long when this guy had working tech demos nearly a decade ago?

I think it's clear from the Richard marks video an comon sense that sony didn't want anyting under 1:1.

They certainly wouldn't have made the jump into casual world with anything under 1:1 ,for a lot of easy to guess reasons..

Schattenjäger · Jun 5, 2009

CalamityDaunt said:
So apparently you're the voice of "most" gamers now?

When I say "gamer", I mean hardcore gamers vs. others - as in the casual demographic that Nintendo is going after.

furrygiblets · Jun 5, 2009

Schattenjagger said:
When I say "gamer", I mean hardcore gamers vs. others - as in the casual demographic that Nintendo is going after.

HOW DO YOU KNOW? Did you poll 1000 hardcore gamers or something. You might wanna watch your step before you trip in the hole you just dug.

Zoramon089 · Jun 5, 2009

Schattenjagger said:
When I say "gamer", I mean hardcore gamers vs. others - as in the casual demographic that Nintendo is going after.

So you're the voice of all hardcore gamers now?

UntoldDreams · Jun 5, 2009

Schattenjagger said:
Sorry I didn't realize I was shitting anything up. I just think they are showing too little, too late. I don't want to see 3rd parties focusing on a peripheral. The technology is not even ready yet. I think Sony's core is gamers - and most gamers do not want this.

How praytell is calling the PS3 a failure.... helping this thread about motion control?

Azrael · Jun 5, 2009

Thrakier said:
They are shitting all over Sonys "wand":

http://www.vg247.com/2009/06/05/e3-2009-–-who-won-the-press-conferences/

Notice the "exclusives" double standard. FFXIV and Agent aren't really "exclusives," he insists, but there's no such caveat about Splinter Cell: Conviction.

And the Natal demonstration was amazing, but Milo was all smoke and mirrors. Peter Molyneaux has not created a piece of software that can pass the Turing Test :lol The final product will be a cross between Eye Pet and Seaman.

Pristine_Condition · Jun 5, 2009

Gwanatu T said:
See this is the problem I have with Sony right now though. They've had this stuff for years, but they didn't think it would be successful.

Not true, really. The original EyeToy was actually remarkably successful for a peripheral. EyeToy: Play sold over two million units in Europe in the first six months. It sold over 500,000 in the US in the holiday season it was released. EyeToy sold over 10 million units LTD.

Sony knew it would be successful, because they had success with it already. It just wasn't seen as important enough or polished enough for Sony's hardware designers back when the PS3 was released to use as the main controller interface and to be packed in to every system. I'd suspect most of the suits at Sony Japan still kinda feels that way, too. They seem to really like the controller design and see it as an important part of the Playstation identity.

Gwanatu T said:
Why else did it take this long when this guy had working tech demos nearly a decade ago? You could see that Dr. Marks was annoyed with Sony at E3, listen to his voice when he says "we had the first motion sensing controller." You can tell he's got a "told you so" kind of thing going on with Sony, and now they are finally taking him seriously. It's a shame, really, because I think if they had taken this seriously in the first place and debuted it with the PS3, this generation would be very different. Sony would still be on top, we probably wouldn't have as many stupid waggle/party/shovelware titles, and the Wii wouldn't have to exist because there's no reason to buy one when a competitor's system is better in every regard. I guess I'm mad at Sony for holding up progress, but the past can't be changed and I'm just hoping this thing is standard with the next console for the sake of having good games.

The best explanation is that PS3 Sony fucked up. Or maybe the tracking system or software as we see it today wasn't polished enough for them at the time when the PS3 was being designed. Maybe they decided early on that they weren't going to bring out a 3D solution until they could get very close to 1:1, and getting there took a little longer.

But definitely tap the brakes on the whole "this generation would be very different. Sony would still be on top," speculation. The PS3 was too expensive for the market as it was, well before the thought of also packing in a PSEye camera enters the picture. Also, clearly Sony brass hadn't made up their mind on what the PSEye was going to end up being until it was too late for launch anyway. Even close to launch, Sony was still talking about a wireless IP camera which still hasn't materialized.

Schattenjäger · Jun 5, 2009

CalamityDaunt said:
HOW DO YOU KNOW? Did you poll 1000 hardcore gamers or something. You might wanna watch your step before you trip in the hole you just dug.

Take a chill pill dude. That is my impression - I think there have been polls posted. You can even read the responses in this forum. Many posters here - who I consider gamers, don't want motion controls. While I can't give you exact numbers, there seems to be a decent amount that have posted statements against motion controls. Who knows, maybe Sony can implement these controls differently than Nintendo has so far to draw in these hardcore gamers. Still quite to early to tell.

AbortedWalrusFetus · Jun 5, 2009

I find it kind of weird that the controller uses the ultrasonic tech. I envisioned it as more of a sonar sort of system they could use for the eyetoy to track what was in the room. The only use I could think of for that would be to tell how near/far the controller is from the TV, but I would think they could do that by measuring the size of the bulb from the cameras perspective. The bulb would appear larger the closer it got to the TV, and smaller the farther it got. Maybe the logistics of that are harder than I'd imagine. I thought that was the whole reason the bulb was so prominently large. I mean, if that wasn't their intention it could be something simple like a lit up ring around the top of the controller I'd imagine, but I'm not an expert.

Pristine_Condition · Jun 5, 2009

Zoramon089 said:
The issue isn't whether Dr. Marks was serious about this or not, it's whether Sony was, and they weren't willing to take the risk and give motion sensing a serious go until after Nintendo showed how much of a success it could be with consumers with the Wii. Regardless of when they started looking into it, regardless of how much they spent working on it, regardless of how adamant Marks was about this, all signs point to Sony taking a wait and see approach with it. First with the Eyetoy (since you so greatly believe it's relevant to the discussion) and then with the Wii...

Sony has spent millions bankrolling Dr. Marks' R&D for a decade, made him the head of the lab, and has given him valuable and high-profile time at some of their most important trade shows over the years too. They're serious.

Zoramon089 said:
Regardless of when they started looking into it, regardless of how much they spent working on it, regardless of how adamant Marks was about this, all signs point to Sony taking a wait and see approach with it. First with the Eyetoy (since you so greatly believe it's relevant to the discussion) and then with the Wii...

How did Sony "wait and see" on the EyeToy? "All signs point to Sony taking a wait and see approach?" Really?

First off, Sony had the balls to bring it out and market it despite the fact that every camera peripheral ever tried for consoles was a complete failure. Still, they marketed EyeToy well, came out with a lot of games for it, and sold over 10 million units. The second-generation PSEye was the first major Sony peripheral released for the PS3, in two SKUs, one with a pack-in game, and one ala cart.

furrygiblets · Jun 5, 2009

Schattenjagger said:
Take a chill pill dude. That is my impression - I think there have been polls posted. You can even read the responses in this forum. Many posters here - who I consider gamers, don't want motion controls. While I can't give you exact numbers, there seems to be a decent amount that have posted statements against motion controls. Who knows, maybe Sony can implement these controls differently than Nintendo has so far to draw in these hardcore gamers. Still quite to early to tell.

I'm sorry but you're absolutely rediculous, time for you to shit up another thread methinks

bottles · Jun 5, 2009

Pristine_Condition said:
You're wasting your time with that bottles guy. He doesn't care about facts or history. He doesn't care about documentation to back up those facts. He's just going to repeat the same thing over and over and over again. To summarize:

**He honestly somehow believes that a brilliant, award winning scientist like Dr. Marks was willing to just waste his time and his life (he's been working on motion sensing since his PhD project) working in stages on this exact same project, for this exact same stated goal, in the lab for the greater part of a decade, for nothing. He implies that Dr. Marks was content to spin his wheels apparently, working on products for a company with no intention of bringing any of this out, until Nintendo came out with their Wii Motion + plan last year. He doesn't realize how insulting that implication is to Dr. Marks, or doesn't care, apparently.

**He somehow wants to convince people that Sony has been willing to bankroll Dr Marks, naming him the head of his own research lab and spending millions on R&D over the last decade, all for nothing...until Nintendo came out with the Wii and had success. Never mind that the fruits of that research and Sony's lab investment led to real motion-sensing products that sold millions before the Wii was even announced.

**He seems to want everyone to ignore everything we've seen over two console generations of Sony marketing and supporting the EyeToy, the PSEye, and their games, because he believes none of that mattered until Nintendo came out with the Wii. Pointing out historical facts that Sony started all this EyeToy stuff and had success on their own with over 10 million EyeToys sold and millions in EyeToy software, years and years before the Wii made a single dime is ignored completely by this poster.

**He apparently believes that Dr. Marks wasn't serious about precision 3D motion-sensing until Nintendo had success with the Wii, despite the fact that he has stated in no uncertain terms that "We need a really good 3D sensor, and if you have that, that'll be as important as the Z-buffer is for graphics." He apparently chooses to ignore that Dr. Marks stated that in 2004 too, years before the Wii's success.

Your video is going to do nothing to convince him, or to get him to quit shitting up this thread with his ridiculous belief. According to him, everybody is copying Nintendo. Facts be damned.

Zoramon089 said:
The issue isn't whether Dr. Marks was serious about this or not, it's whether Sony was, and they weren't willing to take the risk and give motion sensing a serious go until after Nintendo showed how much of a success it could be with consumers with the Wii. Regardless of when they started looking into it, regardless of how much they spent working on it, regardless of how adamant Marks was about this, all signs point to Sony taking a wait and see approach with it. First with the Eyetoy (since you so greatly believe it's relevant to the discussion) and then with the Wii...

Bingo. Pristines joke of a post once again makes it crystal clear that he has been missing the point over and over and over again.

And it all comes down to what I said at the very beginning: a lot of fanboy sobbing that Sony did the R&D first!, which is irrelevant.

Pristine_Condition · Jun 5, 2009

bottles said:
Bingo. Pristines joke of a post once again makes it crystal clear that he has been missing the point over and over and over again. And it all comes down to what I said at the very beginning: a lot of fanboy sobbing that Sony did the R&D first!, which is irrelevant.

It's no surprise that you say "bingo" and agree with his post, bottles. It's also no surprise that most of the "points" in his post are absolute crap, and not backed up by well-known, historical facts.

But thanks again for proving my prediction right, that you would come back in here just repeating your same, faith-based assertion aver again, without bringing any new information to the table that backs up your claim, because, of course, there is none. The facts aren't on your side. You have only your faith in Nintendo.

Schattenjäger · Jun 5, 2009

CalamityDaunt said:
I'm sorry but you're absolutely rediculous, time for you to shit up another thread methinks

So what is your take on it? While it's still too early to gauge how this thing will do, do you think it will attract more hardcore gamers?

mrklaw · Jun 5, 2009

how expensive is that IR bit in natal?

Assuming Sony haven't really shipped many eyetoys so far, and also assuming those of us nuts enough to buy one for EoJ will rebuy anyway, couldn't they pretty quickly retrofit some of that IR tech into a refreshed eyetoy that would be bundled with the wands?

aside from that, I'd expect eyetoy as is to be able to do milo, that elephant thing, the 'changing a wheel' minigame. Its really only the smaller motions tha twould be more tricky - separating hands from body when they are close to each other - that the IR in the natal would have the advantage. But thats what you have the wands for

So for me the sony has the advantage becasue it has the camera for large motions, the wands for small/subtle ones.

MS hasn't proven itself on the small/subtle/accurate, and Nintendo doesn't have any form of vision based system at all

don't think it matters yet though. I expect both Sony and MS to play around with bundles, experiment with them, but then refine/tweak for their next console launches. So its perfectly feasible that Sony might end up with some of hte Natal approach, and MS might add some wand stuff for accuracy. Will Nintendo add a camera?

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