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Kotaku UK thinks "More Like Persona 5/10, Amirite" is a good headline

YEah the dungeons in this one are amazing compared to the snooze fest that was P4 or P3 dungeons (and in P3 I swear it was randomly generated dungeons for some of it...my memory might be hazy and I did only play the PSP version though)
No you are right, the dungeons in P3 and P4 are randomly generated. They are the worst kind of randomly generated though, as the random structure is utterly meaningless because the dungeon layouts and structures are utterly meaningless in P3 and P4. Every time it's just a long corridor connecting a square room, or a dead end that sometimes has a chest. That's it. The combat is great, but the actual dungeons themselves are crap in P3 and P4.

I don't uunderstand the complaints about the
space
dungeon in P5 either. Is it just because the dungeon is long? All the dungeons in P5 are long.
 

ianpm31

Member
I enjoyed and beat P5 at around 105 hrs. Some areas were the best of the series while some weren't but still my goty atm. I really think if people are complaining about dungeons in P5 must be new to the series...
 
No you are right, the dungeons in P3 and P4 are randomly generated. They are the worst kind of randomly generated though, as the random structure is utterly meaningless because the dungeon layouts and structures are utterly meaningless in P3 and P4. Every time it's just a long corridor connecting a square room, or a dead end that sometimes has a chest. That's it. The combat is great, but the actual dungeons themselves are crap in P3 and P4.

I don't uunderstand the complaints about the
space
dungeon in P5 either. Is it just because the dungeon is long? All the dungeons in P5 are long.

Honestly? The dialogue in that dungeon plays with your emotions and if you're dumb (like me) it takes way too long to figure out the final puzzle.
 

BajiBoxer

Banned
The dungeons are far superior to the previous Persona games, and exploring the random sections is a superior version of P3s tower (though can still be a slog). I like the characters on an individual level, but the previous games had better group interaction. It helped that in 3 and 4 some had a stronger prior relationship. Story wise, 5 goes some places that other games don't which I appreciate.
 

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
I enjoyed and beat P5. Some areas were the best of the series while some weren't but still my goty atm. I really think if people are complaining about dungeons in P5 must be new to the series...

I'm a fan of the series and the SMT series overall, which is exactly why I think the dungeons and combat aren't that great.

Compared to the Persona series it's improved, but kinda mediocre compared to other JRPGs in general, and also to SMT which it is a sister series of.
 

Dr.Hadji

Member
Kotaku said:
Persona 5 has this difficulty all the way through it, of simultaneously trying to say something profound about young people, their burgeoning hopes, rich inner lives, and developing sexuality — and then sexualising its underage cast in order to push the plot forwards.


Such a strange statement. Besides Kamoshida, I can't think of any major or minor(?) plot progression that hinged on the main cast needing to be sexualized. Outside of social links (and again Kamoshida), sex doesn't show up much in the main plot.
 
Honestly? The dialogue in that dungeon plays with your emotions and if you're dumb (like me) it takes way too long to figure out the final puzzle.
Wanna elaborate on that? I'm honestly interested in hearing why people hate that dungeon so much, as I read tons of people griping about it here, then when I actually played it I really didn't see any negatives it has over the other dungeons.
 
I could've stopped you at "Kotaku". I like Jason, but outside of links to his articles posted on here, I haven't visited that trash site in almost 5 years.
 

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
Such a strange statement. Besides Kamoshida, I can't think of any major or minor(?) plot progression that hinged on the main cast needing to be sexualized. Outside of social links (and again Kamoshida), sex doesn't show up much in the main plot.

Ann definitely had to act in the femme fatale role in 2 and ship.
 

kadotsu

Banned
Animu fans are upset , I think he's done what he set out to achieve.

Thread title change is weird, it's pretty obvious that the article is in no way meant to be a serious or professional one.

Well if the goal was to upset some people the author should think of applying for an outlet that has it as their mission statement. Heat Street would be good.
 

ianpm31

Member
I'm a fan of the series and the SMT series overall, which is exactly why I think the dungeons and combat aren't that great.

So you prefer randomly generated dungeons in the persona series? Just keeping it within the persona series because I do think SMT is superior
 
Game wasn't awful but man what a weak finale.
Both the boss and ending were just bad.
Unusual levels of cheesiness I felt from that fight.
 

duckroll

Member
Such a strange statement. Besides Kamoshida, I can't think of any major or minor(?) plot progression that hinged on the main cast needing to be sexualized. Outside of social links (and again Kamoshida), sex doesn't show up much in the main plot.

That absolutely isn't true. Sexual harassment, nude modeling, prostitution, forced marriage, these are all themes running through the main storyline involving the teenage characters. How can you not see it?
 
Such a strange statement. Besides Kamoshida, I can't think of any major or minor(?) plot progression that hinged on the main cast needing to be sexualized. Outside of social links (and again Kamoshida), sex doesn't show up much in the main plot.

Did you forget about chapter 2? Where one of the characters we're supposed to root for
blackmails Ann into posing naked for him
and the entire scene is played for laughs even though she just had to deal with Kamoshida's disgusting bullshit a few days earlier?
 
The "no twists" point is where the article goes into "find evidence where no evidence is found" territory, along with
none of the villians having a secret benevolent ulterior motive, a VERY over-used shonen trope that is put in reguardless of handling and suitability, and is certainly not a "requirement" like most anime storybeats and tropes as some seem to see them as.

There's some theming knocks that will be revealed in my GOTY write-up but oddly there's none shared with the article.

Are people not feeling P5's characters?

I think alot of people loved 4, but to a point that they forget P1, 2, 3, and therefore 5 doesn't "work" right to them.

4's the odd one out where the team becomes a real deal tight group of friends rather than a team of like-minded comrades united by mission. The picaresque melieu cements this even further. Again, it would be hitting checkboxes rather than a coherent whole.

I'd liken 5's group to Tales of the Abyss/Berseria in this reguard, where the casts also ain't exactly goodie-two-shoes and innately pleasant after Important Character Development either.
 
I'm a fan of the series and the SMT series overall, which is exactly why I think the dungeons and combat aren't that great.

Compared to the Persona series it's improved, but kinda mediocre compared to other JRPGs in general, and also to SMT which it is a sister series of.
Not sure I agree that the combat is 'mediocre' compared to other JRPGs. What other recent JRPGs are you comparing it to? Maybe it doesnt compare to mainline SMT In those areas, but what really does? Also it's weird to expect SMT out of Persona, they are clearly very different series.
 

Beartruck

Member
P5 feels like wasted potential. Haru can be cut and nothing of substance would be lost. The entire game just felt underwhelming. It did have some good story moments, but never really wanted to step outside of its comfort zone. Like that finale is 11/10, I loved it, but the game didn't deserve an ending that good.
Also Rivers in the Desert is great and then isn't topped when you're fighting this manifested GOD
Ryuji dying would've been nice, Ryuji anything would've been nice. What's character development for a shitty teenager? Yosuke got more character development than you did.
Akechi is just Adachi 2.0, but with less development. Instead of bitches it's daddy issues. Haru doesn't need to be there. Makoto is actually interesting as a character, so is Futaba.Yusuke is a blessed boy. Morgana is just Teddie again, except they actually explain his origin.

I really hope the next mainline Persona is shorter, or at least different. I don't think I could do 80-120 hours of the same game again.
I'd like to think my perception of P5 is skewered because I played Nier Automata before it and I will never experience a game like that again. Like game is a solid good game. Q1 2017 being so damn good really didn't help how underwhelming the game felt.

Read your spoilers, glad I stopped after the first dungeon. I called
akechi
being the bad guy literally the second he walked onscreen. If it was supposed to be a surprise they failed miserably.
 
The article makes a convincing case about simplistic combat, plot, villains, and character work. It sounds like I would end up hating it, and to know it's 100 hours long? LOL

This is the first thing I've read up about Persona 5, so good job on the unselling, OP and Callum Agnew :p
 
Seriously though, I really loved the first half of the game. It's was extremely absorbing.

The title of this article is very unprofessonal and stupid, but the points were all solid, the writer seems to be a hardcore gamer that had a lot to say.

Minus the bad headline, it really feels like an article written by a Gaffer.

I have some bad news for you.

looool
 

TrueBlue

Member
Persona 5 really does drag on too long. Oddly enough though some of its major story beats - Haru and most of Chapter 5 for instance - feel very rushed.
 
How the hell is the dungeon design a stepdown? People need to replay P3 and P4, and see how boring those dungeons are.

I replayed Golden right after I finished Persona 5 because I couldn't figure out why I disliked P5 so much and thought that maybe I just wasn't making fair comparisons and P4 wasn't as good as I remembered it. I was wrong, Persona 5 just isn't very good.

The dungeons in P5 are mostly terrible and the randomized dungeons of P4 are better in every way. Sure they are randomized (for the most part) and not unique or interesting but I'd take them any day over doing the P5 dungeons ever again for one simple reason, the P4 dungeons aren't offensively long and drawn out. Every dungeon has a max of around 10 levels and getting through the whole thing takes maybe an hour or so, compare this to the several hours the P5 dungeons take many of which have god awful mechanics (mice maze) that repeat over and over again.

Sure the dungeons in P5 are more stylish and more fleshed out but the basic problem with the dungeons and the whole game in general is that the game is constantly trying to one up itself in every arc. Every dungeon has to be longer and more grandiose then the last and by dungeon 5 they just become slogs to play through. The first dungeon was quite excellent IMO because it didn't have many mechanics that made the dungeon drag on longer then it needed to, it got a bit old by the end but it still wasn't a bad experience overall. From here it goes downhill with each new dungeon giving you more tedious 'puzzles' that are only made to pad out the length of the dungeon itself.

Then there is the problem of the cover mechanic. It's far to powerful and honestly it breaks the game. Using the cover mechanic makes you invisible to the enemy and even if they are looking right at you they can't see you, this gives you advantage in EVERY single battle if you want it to, making every battle simple and boring. Bosses also generally just seem like HP sponges with maybe one interesting mechanic which is generally used to speed up the pace of the battle.

The battles themselves are mostly fine but I've said this before and I'll say it again, Why do Nuke and Psi exist? Guns matter for the style and the hold up mechanic but they also are not very useful outside of hitting an enemies weakness (and gun skills later on but that literally could have been anything they just slapped guns on it to give a bigger purpose to them) but the problem with Nuke and Psi is that they are just completely unnecessary. Bless and Curse had already been improved to offer more then instant kill spells so why do we need another 2 elements on top of that? It's not as if they did anything interesting with those elements they are just yet another 2 ways to damage enemies the only thing it 'adds' to the gameplay is making it slightly harder to get proper coverage of all elements for your team but its so stupidly easy to get your MC a persona with whatever element you need it seems completely pointless.

These two elements feel like something that was thought up from the very beginning but they never found a really good way to use them and instead of cutting them they just kept them because it would've been more work to remove them then to use them despite them being completely unneeded and unnecessary.

I don't even want to get into my issues with the story and its characters as this post has gone on long enough but yeah, Persona 5 was hyped as hell and was in development for a long ass time that like FFXV and MGSV I'm surprised it's taken as long as it has for people to start really being critical of it.

If you love the game more power to you but Persona 5 was a massive disappointment to me and many others.
 
Agree 100% with the article though the title is click bait. P5 is more an 8/10 it's not the best jrpg this console generation not even the best jrpg this year.
 

mdubs

Banned
Move past it. It's really doesn't matter one bit.
It does when you present that as a hook to your article. Presumably someone writing intends to back up what they are claiming in a headline like that, and that's not what happened here.
 

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
Not sure I agree that the combat is 'mediocre' compared to other JRPGs. What other recent JRPGs are you comparing it to? Maybe it doesnt compare to mainline SMT In those areas, but what really does? Also it's weird to expect SMT out of Persona, they are clearly very different series.

Like I've said, I don't come to persona series for JRPG combat, so it not being great is fine to me.

As for JRPG combat I prefer, the mainline SMT series as I've stated, Etrian Odyssey, even pokemon really, though that's only if you go into the competitive aspects.
 
Wanna elaborate on that? I'm honestly interested in hearing why people hate that dungeon so much, as I read tons of people griping about it here, then when I actually played it I really didn't see any negatives it has over the other dungeons.

It's mainly due to my shortcomings as a player (I'm complete shit at puzzles in games) and the dialogue ("the treasure is close!") convincing you that you're almost done with the dungeon when you're really only 50-75% done. I will say I really ended up enjoying the dungeon during my second playthrough. I personally don't think it's poorly designed at all, I just initially felt bitter because the game randomly decided to expose me as an idiot during the final puzzle lol.
 

duckroll

Member
P4 Stans still wearing those rose tinted glasses I see.

This seems like a lazy comment when there have been in depth debates between people who prefer P4 and those who don't. I dislike a lot of things about P4 and I have since it was first released, but there's no question that when it comes to preference of design, writing, and cast, it really is a matter of personal taste. P4 and P5 are very, very different, and P5 shares much more in common with P3 than P4.
 
Every dungeon has a max of around 10 levels and getting through the whole thing takes maybe an hour or so, compare this to the several hours the P5 dungeons take many of which have god awful mechanics (mice maze) that repeat over and over again.

The mice maze in Shido's palace nearly made me quit the game, It was literally driving me crazy, how can anything being this tedious, long, boring and souless? It's neither too hard or too easy so you can't relax nor focus either.

It was literally INSANE, I am litereally begging it to end, I seriously want to cry, I would pay someone just to get through that part of the game for me.

The Akechi and Shido part after that is good, but the game really lost me. I stopped playing it after that, I know I would hate this game more if I keep playing, and I don't really want to hate it. Part of me still love the game, and I mean love.
 

Lynx_7

Member
I'm a fan of the series and the SMT series overall, which is exactly why I think the dungeons and combat aren't that great.

Compared to the Persona series it's improved, but kinda mediocre compared to other JRPGs in general, and also to SMT which it is a sister series of.

I'm having difficulty thinking of a JRPG that does dungeons better other than dedicated dungeon crawlers like EO, and From Soft games if we count those as JRPGs. If you have any examples I'm all ears, because I must be missing out on something great. DQ dungeons are good but usually really simple both in design and thematically, FF dungeons are thematically appealing but have weak design and synergy with enemy encounters for the most part ( (FF5 being the one exception I can think about) ), Tales of dungeons are nothing to write home about, out of the BOF games I've tried I'd only single out 5 in that category (and it falls into "pure dungeon crawler" imo), Pokemon, Kingdom Hearts, Last Story... Again, maybe I'm missing something, but I'd put P5's dungeons in the higher tier of the medium.

Even the SMT series only really beats it with its PS2 era games and probably SJ (haven't played it yet), but recent ones (SMT IV, Apocalypse) are sorely lacking in that department. Dungeon crawling in P5 is the most fun I've had in a megaten since their PS2 titles. Combat actually gives you plenty of interesting options compared to the previous 2 titles so I don't think it loses to mainline as much as it used to. Maybe it becomes a chore in lower difficulties if no encounter poses a threat, but I've been having a blast on Hard, so it's difficult to reconcile that with the criticisms I've been seeing from some people.
 

Triteon

Member
They're not wrong about the villains,
Oh and Compared to 4, the characters are weaker. The last party member who joins you could be cut, along with the fifth dungeon and it wouldn't make a difference. Despite being a main character they didn't even bother developing her. The dungeons were also a step down making the battles boring and a chore.

Youre not wrong about the characters I feel like their plots go nowhere, but I preferred the Palaces in 5 to the Dungeons in 4.
 

Zafir

Member
While there's some good points with regards to how the villains are portrayed in a rather shallow way (though it's worth noting, the article is wrong about Madarame - he did actually care about Yusuke if you do his social link) I think the Persona 4 comparisons are really unfair though.

Complementing Persona 4's portrayal of characters in comparison to 4 seems really questionable. Like sure Ann is handled fairly poorly considering what happens at the start of the game. However it's not like 4 is any better with Yosuke ripping at Kanji all the time for 'maybe' being gay. They can both be incredibly tone deaf at times.

Also the author makes a snarky comment about the combat? I think this is probably the best iteration of the Persona-style system. Might not be at 'press-turn' levels, but it's far from... bad?

No you are right, the dungeons in P3 and P4 are randomly generated. They are the worst kind of randomly generated though, as the random structure is utterly meaningless because the dungeon layouts and structures are utterly meaningless in P3 and P4. Every time it's just a long corridor connecting a square room, or a dead end that sometimes has a chest. That's it. The combat is great, but the actual dungeons themselves are crap in P3 and P4.

I don't uunderstand the complaints about the
space
dungeon in P5 either. Is it just because the dungeon is long? All the dungeons in P5 are long.

In 5 and 7's case, they reuse puzzles over and over and are easily the longest two. Even on my second playthrough where I had an overpowered Persona, they were the longest two since there's just so much running about.

That said, they're still infinitely better than 3 and 4's dungeons in my eyes.

I replayed Golden right after I finished Persona 5 because I couldn't figure out why I disliked P5 so much and thought that maybe I just wasn't making fair comparisons and P4 wasn't as good as I remembered it. I was wrong, Persona 5 just isn't very good.
I did the opposite, I played 4 Golden right after 5 to try and see if I was wrong about not massively enjoying 4(I still enjoyed it, but not as much as 3 and now 5).

I still think 4 is the worst of the three new-era Persona games(3,4 and 5).
 

Kuro

Member
This seems like a lazy comment when there have been in depth debates between people who prefer P4 and those who don't. I dislike a lot of things about P4 and I have since it was first released, but there's no question that when it comes to preference of design, writing, and cast, it really is a matter of personal taste. P4 and P5 are very, very different, and P5 shares much more in common with P3 than P4.

I can understand the character and writing criticisms but there are people in here saying the dungeons are better in 4 because they're bland and short. P5 dungeons were so much better for me even if a couple of them dragged on for too long. A lot of the feeling of dungeons lasting too long are probably a result of people trying to finish them in 2 days when the game gives you 20+ days to do so. I guess its because people want to max everything out outside of dungeons.
 

duckroll

Member
I'm having difficulty thinking of a JRPG that does dungeons better other than dedicated dungeon crawlers like EO, and From Soft games if we count those as JRPGs. If you have any examples I'm all ears, because I must be missing out on something great. DQ dungeons are good but usually really simple both in design and thematically, FF dungeons are thematically appealing but have weak design and synergy with enemy encounters for the most part ( (FF5 being the one exception I can think about) ), Tales of dungeons are nothing to write home about, out of the BOF games I've tried I'd only single out 5 in that category (and it falls into "pure dungeon crawler" imo), Pokemon, Kingdom Hearts, Last Story... Again, maybe I'm missing something, but I'd put P5's dungeons in the higher tier of the medium.

Even the SMT series only really beats it with its PS2 era games and probably SJ (haven't played it yet), but recent ones (SMT IV, Apocalypse) are sorely lacking in that department. Dungeon crawling in P5 is the most fun I've had in a megaten since their PS2 titles. Combat actually gives you plenty of interesting options compared to the previous 2 titles so I don't think it loses to mainline as much as it used to. Maybe it becomes a chore in lower difficulties if no encounter poses a threat, but I've been having a blast on Hard, so it's difficult to reconcile that with the criticisms I've been seeing from some people.

Well I guess there's the rub - Persona should be considered a dedicated dungeon crawling series. That's all there is to the combat-centric part of it - dungeons dungeons and dungeons. There is no overworld with encounters, there are no fields to explore, etc. It's just a series of intense dungeons broken up by adventure game elements. So why shouldn't it be held up to the standard of the dedicated dungeon greats? :)
 

FC Bayern

Member
Persona 5 is a GOTY contender and probably the best rpg of the year as well.
LaGBUqC.gif

Etrian Odyssey 5 already has it beat. Sorry.
 
The mice maze in Shido's palace nearly made me quit the game, It was literally driving me crazy, how can anything being this tedious, long, boring and souless? It's neither too hard or too easy so you can't relax nor focus either.

It was literally INSANE, I am litereally begging it to end, I seriously want to cry, I would pay someone just to get through that part of the game for me.

The Akechi and Shido part after that is good, but the game really lost me. I stopped playing it after that, I know I would hate this game more if I keep playing, and I don't really want to hate it. Part of me still love the game, and I mean love.

I hear you, thats one reason I replayed Golden right after finishing it because there were elements that I really did like, the entire first arc of the game is the absolute best but everything it earns in that first arc from the character development, the story elements, the unique dungeons, ect. is all wasted in every arc following it. It still boggles my mind that they literally have this whole story about sexual assault in the first arc and Ann being a huge victim along with Shiho to then turning that around in the second arc with the guys convincing her she needs to pose nude for a painting. Like seriously... what the fucking hell happened here?
 

Firenze1

Banned
I am on new game plus. It sucks having to sit through the dragging intro and tutorials again. Even with fast forward it takes time.
 

ghibli99

Member
30+ hours in, and I'm having a tough time sticking with it. I'm hoping it clicks again soon, but the loop just bores me to death, despite the QoL, style, and music. It just feels like a game I've played before, but with a slick coat of paint as the wrapper, and characters I don't like nearly as much as P3 and P4 (P3 especially).
 

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
I hear you, thats one reason I replayed Golden right after finishing it because there were elements that I really did like, the entire first arc of the game is the absolute best but everything it earns in that first arc from the character development, the story elements, the unique dungeons, ect. is all wasted in every arc following it. It still boggles my mind that they literally have this whole story about sexual assault in the first arc and Ann being a huge victim along with Shiho to then turning that around in the second arc with the guys convincing her she needs to pose nude for a painting. Like seriously... what the fucking hell happened here?

Tbf 4 pulls the exact same shit with kanji, only grosser.
 
I hear you, thats one reason I replayed Golden right after finishing it because there were elements that I really did like, the entire first arc of the game is the absolute best but everything it earns in that first arc from the character development, the story elements, the unique dungeons, ect. is all wasted in every arc following it. It still boggles my mind that they literally have this whole story about sexual assault in the first arc and Ann being a huge victim along with Shiho to then turning that around in the second arc with the guys convincing her she needs to pose nude for a painting. Like seriously... what the fucking hell happened here?

I couldn't agreed more, it really feels like the entire game directed by multiple people at once.
 
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