• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Seven Dead, Several Hospitalized in Isla Vista Mass Shooting

Status
Not open for further replies.
I'm not proposing a solution so much as calling it what it is: this was a garden variety hater, but way out of control. (But you know, so was Hitler...)

But yeah actually.. He was shown to have respected certain people in his manifesto... if one of them had actually gotten ahold of his worldview and called it what it was, maybe it would have pivoted him. Certainly the work of a good therapist could have steered him away from buying into his worldview so much. We needn't presume mental illness led deterministically to this conclusion...

Depends on what people consider mental illness. If I see someone who is unhappy with their life and is somehow unable to take the steps to change it in some way to the point where he becomes hateful and bitter about the world around him I consider him mentally ill in some capacity. This doesn't absolve him from his actions of course but I don't believe this guy would be considered to be in good mental health. Never cared for terms like "hater" anyway so I guess this is just a difference of opinions.
 

Karkador

Banned
Maybe bad sex with a pretty girl would've. He could've understood that he wasn't actually missing out on all that much... 'cept for the fact that he based his entire world view around the idea of getting it or not getting it, and coiled up the entirety of worth and value into those things.

No, because then his delusion would continue- "I'm not having enough sex, other guys are having sex more often than me", "My girlfriend must be cheating on me because all women are vile", "My girlfriend is a horrible person"
 
I thought humanity had become less stupid than that but actually, it hadn't. This guy thought the world owed him a satisfying life and an equality of treatment with others. Does this remind you of anything?

It's a society of spoilt children, pushed to its extremes. He didn't obtain what he wanted in life so he killed instead of finding a way to give the world something interesting enough to get what he wanted in exchange.
 
I didn't say anything about him getting laid.

Also, he could still be a mentally deranged individual, but if he got off the "sexual success = self-worth" worldview, he would still be better off.

I actually know people I would call "megalomaniacs" with similar superiority complexes over humanity.... But you know, if they get off the murder plans, they end up just being crazy bloggers and whatnot.

Fair enough, but when you said "sexually frustrated player hater", I'd imagine some poor girl having to deal with his BS.

Maybe bad sex with a pretty girl would've. He could've understood that he wasn't actually missing out on all that much... 'cept for the fact that he based his entire world view around the idea of getting it or not getting it, and coiled up the entirety of worth and value into those things.

It was a check mark on his list of things to own. He valued sex and the blonde women of the world so much because he hadn't obtained them in his list of things to have. I don't think someone like that is self aware to realize how overstated sex is.

Bad sex with a pretty girl could've been a trigger as well. The more I read about him, the more I feel like there was little to no stopping him from executing his fucked up plan.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Depends on what people consider mental illness. If I see someone who is unhappy with their life and is somehow unable to take the steps to change it in some way to the point where he becomes hateful and bitter about the world around him I consider him mentally ill in some capacity. This doesn't absolve him from his actions of course but I don't believe this guy would be considered to be in good mental health.

Sure, it could be considered mental illness regardless of whether we are talking hard brain patterns or just a person locked into an inescapably negative life path.

I imagine there was plenty of opportunity to steer him away from this particular relation to sexuality, though. I think if he'd been engaged on the topic, eventually he'd be loosened from the certainty of the worldview in his mind... but I'm just musing at this point.


Never cared for terms like "hater" anyway so I guess this is just a difference of opinions.

But it's so patently a thing. Hating because someone is successful, and for no other reason, is prevalent in humanity.

Fair enough, but when you said "sexually frustrated player hater", I'd imagine some poor girl having to deal with his BS.

Hating on those who are successful in dating has no implication that the cure is getting some yourself.

I think it's calling a spade a spade here to say that this guy was extremely jealous of those who were more successful at him in dating.
 
Such a tragedy the killings. Not so much his life. I read through most of his manifesto skimming bits here and there but reading quite a lot. The guy wasted his entire early dating years(when things start to get bad for him, age 14) playing World of Warcraft(he eventually gives it up around 17-18 or so). The guy has a serious case of affluenza...handed everything in life but being tall and having women ask him out(women hardly ask anyone out). If he applied himself at anything other than World of Warcraft...I'm sure he would have had some friends, interests, and probably a girlfriend.

He thought Powerball would make him desirable yet at one point he puts down hookers because it's not real. He totally doesn't get that the money wouldn't be real either...they'd just be loving him for his money had he won.

He saw psychiatrists, had some mentors, and no one besides his mom raised a red flag and that was only until she saw one of his videos. It sounds like he talked to his parents a lot because they were his only friends...but they surely didn't do enough in the right aspects of his life and did far too much in others aspects. This comes down to horrible parenting(they ignored some website he linked to about how all women are evil, amongst many other fuckups), easy access to guns or guns in general(sure he killed other way but the guns made him feel powerful as he says in his manifesto...he's the "alpha male now.") This plot probably wouldn't have sprung without that feeling of power that came with the guns. The guy goes on about how he is the most marvelous thing ever and his plans for humanity(no women on the planet whatsoever after murdering them all in a concentration camp...except a few in some secret location to keep humanity going)...obviously, he is crazy in thought and action.

He should have had some interest in life besides getting laid from a blonde and then he would have met the blonde and gotten laid pursuing said interest...had he had the balls to ask her out which he doesn't have as it appears he never asked anyone out...just whined. Dude is just quite seriously a fucking moron.
 
That was my initial impression as well, it's quite fascinating actually. But if you told the guy he reminded you of Patrick Bateman, he probably would've taken that as a compliment.

Unfortunately true. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if he fantasized about being Patrick Bateman - a man who looks good, dresses exquisitely, and has complete dominance over women.
 
Sure, it could be considered mental illness regardless of whether we are talking hard brain patterns or just a person locked into an inescapably negative life path.

I imagine there was plenty of opportunity to steer him away from this particular relation to sexuality, though. I think if he'd been engaged on the topic, eventually he'd be loosened from the certainty of the worldview in his mind... but I'm just musing at this point.


But it's so patently a thing. Hating because someone is successful, and for no other reason, is prevalent in humanity.

I think he hated himself more than anybody else. It all seems like crippling insecurity, weakness, fear leading him not to fail but to not even try. I really doubt he ever went up or seriously tried to talk to any girls and got rejected. He probably sat there watching everyone else and seethed at his inability to act. The best way not to face your fears is to find a way to blame others for your misery.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Lé Blade Runner;113364955 said:
Unfortunately true. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if he fantasized about being Patrick Bateman - a man who looks good, dresses exquisitely, and has complete dominance over women.

He wishes he were a suave monster like Bateman. Just because he pulled the trigger didn't really transform this awkard hater geek into that....
 

The Crimson Kid

what are you waiting for
Well I've spent way too much time today thinking about and reading comments from every corner of the internet on all of this. I can't say it's been for nothing. In retrospect, I should've been taking notes because there could be some fascinating conclusions to be drawn from the reactions to this particular set of events.

It's too late to put into words properly, but I'm much more pessimistic about the way our culture is developing and about the internet as a method of communication with confusing and complex topics than I was 24 hours ago

Yes, I sound a bit detached partially because I'm desensitized to yet another mass killing. Yes, I'm keenly aware of how fucked up that is. I'm also aware of how much our society would have to change in order to radically reduce the rate of occurrence of these mass killings.

I'm not sure if I'm immoral for saying this, but his manifesto is fascinating. Absolutely horrid, but fascinating. I'm trying to understand how this train of thought and mentality is developed.

Thing is, each human psyche is a unique compendium of conclusions drawn from everything that individual has experienced in their life, with each conclusion being influenced by an innumerable variety of environmental and genetic dispositions. In reality, you would need to be a supremely well-educated and experienced psychologist that had several sessions with the killer in order to have anything approaching a properly educated guess on how to crack this nut. The human brain simply processes too much at once for us to notice and the brain is also notoriously poor at remembering details, let alone communicating these details accurately to another person with their own unique psyche to process those details.

Luckily for you, we're on the internet, where we have hundreds of thousands of brand-new psychologists today, and they've each managed to narrow the entirety of the cause of this guy's insanity they've never met down to one single thing, although which single thing is still up for debate. I've actually seen all of these today.

Take your pick, and apparently you can only pick one:

Guns, bad parenting, videogames, American culture, misogyny, heritage, money, women, men, public schooling, white privilege, privatized medicine, Satan, welfare, narcissism, bad genes, feminism, the NRA, unmoderated Internet forums, Aspergers, psychologists, pure evil, Obamacare, rape culture, being born under a bad sign, Pokemon, Jesus, not enough Jesus, the patriarchy, steroids, fluoride in the drinking water, Greek life, alpha males, and, of course, the liberal media. To name but a few.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I think he hated himself more than anybody else. It all seems like crippling insecurity, weakness, fear leading him not to fail but to not even try. I really doubt he ever went up or seriously tried to talk to any girls and got rejected. He probably sat there watching everyone else and seethed at his inability to act. The best way not to face your fears is to find a way to blame others for your misery.

Oh definitely. He basically spells it out "why did this non-white/punk/moron have a girl.... and I didn't?" He hated those successful men because they were a reminder that he was not. And he wanted to abolish this whole system that made him feel the fool.

I know you'll hate this but ;) ....he hated the player (other successful men) and he hated the game too (came to see sex and women's 'bestial' choice of other men as something that should be abolished).
 
Oh definitely. He basically spells it out "why did this non-white/punk/moron have a girl.... and I didn't?" He hated those successful men because they were a reminder that he was not. And he wanted to abolish this whole system that made him feel the fool.

I know you'll hate this but ;) ....he hated the player (other successful men) and he hated the game too (came to see sex and women's 'bestial' choice of other men as something that should be abolished).

lol I think we just have a different way of putting it guess.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
No, because then his delusion would continue- "I'm not having enough sex, other guys are having sex more often than me", "My girlfriend must be cheating on me because all women are vile", "My girlfriend is a horrible person"

Pretty much. I'm simply extending the thought to the next step - because they're so many intertwined points of failure that there would've been no easy fix for him.
 

Caesnd

Member
Sure, it could be considered mental illness regardless of whether we are talking hard brain patterns or just a person locked into an inescapably negative life path.

I imagine there was plenty of opportunity to steer him away from this particular relation to sexuality, though. I think if he'd been engaged on the topic, eventually he'd be loosened from the certainty of the worldview in his mind... but I'm just musing at this point.

Sometimes it's not up to choosing. Some people can have all the love and best care in the world and still end up in tragedy.

And i don't believe his problems were rooted in sexuality, or relationships, or being accepted. It was most likely deeper than that.
 

Lost Fragment

Obsessed with 4chan
Every little story I've seen from his manifesto seems to end with a handful of lines that almost sound sarcastic, as if somewhere inside he's self-aware of how ridiculous it all is. And in his videos it almost seems like he's acting.

It's probably kind of out-there as a theory, but every once in a while I wonder if his motivation for this business isn't what it seems. Maybe this kid just wanted to be a famous murderer, and wrote a bunch of sensational shit to sweeten the pot for the media.
 

Fritz

Member
It seems like he had tremendous issues with being half chinese/having a chinese mother although it's never said directly. All this talk about inferior ethnicities and this insane urge for a "hot blonde" girl. And how he feels he needs a blonde girl to impress his father. Sounds almost like his father spoke badly about his chinese mother a lot. /kitchen psychology
 

Spineker

Banned
This whole tragedy does plenty to illustrate that humanity still has a hell of a fight ahead of it when it comes to managing mental health.

Watch the NRA fire back at the father name dropping them by saying he's a grieving father who isn't thinking straight.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Sometimes it's not up to choosing. Some people can have all the love and best care in the world and still end up in tragedy.

I agree. That's why I'm not rushing to blame the parents, for example. I don't know this situation, but some very troubled people have been born to some very ok parents (Dahmer comes to mind).


And i don't believe his problems were rooted in sexuality, or relationships, or being accepted. It was most likely deeper than that.
I think it's tempting to assume a complex, twisted psychology at play here, especially since he killed people which makes him seem like a complex monster. But his obsession with sexuality and self-worth might well be just another manifestation of the simple stories we (often mistakenly) tell ourselves to account for our experiences.

Who's to say that it wasn't just a rather common case of jealousy and inadequacy that spiraled out of control? (multiplied, no doubt, by a case of theatric self-aggrandizing) It's quite possible this was a series of very bad decisions made in his head... and he could have been talked down from it. I think that a willing engagement with therapy could actually go a long way.

Or, as you say, it could be much deeper than that. Who can know, at this point.
 
http://vimeo.com/28466163

This is a short documentary on 'incels,' involuntary celibates.

They are attending a meet-up. It's interesting to see them interact socially. I wouldn't be surprised if these people ran in the same online circles as Elliot. There's a lot of overlap in the things they talk about.

I really think he had some form of autism. The dire tone he tries to affect in a lot of his videos reminds me of chrischan. His way of thinking is extremely systematic. He thinks all he has to do meet certain criteria on paper, and a girl will desire him. He seems completely oblivious to nuances of personality that girls find attractive.

Autistic people will also often have a pet project or hobby that they will completely obsess over. It's really unfortunate that his project was becoming an 'alpha' male, something he seemed fundamentally unequipped for.

As someone with autism, it hurts that this story reminds me of when I was 14. I started to write a memo about my life and things that frustrated me each day. I sent group emails to "friends" about being sad and wanting to hurt myself and maybe others. It was a lot of frustration about girls. I HATED seeing any forms of affection in public. After acting out so much I eventually got the help I needed and preventing me from hurting others.

Rather not go into more detail here. PM me if anyone wants to know more.
 

Chromax

Member
Still reading his thing. This guy drove to Arizona to buy a powerball ticket thinking he was destined to win the 500 mil...
 
As someone with autism, it hurts that this story reminds me of when I was 14. I started to write a memo about my life and things that frustrated me each day. I sent group emails to "friends" about being sad and wanting to hurt myself and maybe others. It was a lot of frustration about girls. I HATED seeing any forms of affection in public. After acting out so much I eventually got the help I needed and preventing me from hurting others.

Rather not go into more detail here. PM me if anyone wants to know more.

That's cool that you reached out and got help. That's not easy to do.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Still reading his thing. This guy drove to Arizona to buy a powerball ticket thinking he was destined to win the 500 mil...

I actually have a friend who "decided" that he was going to win the lottery one day. Obviously he didn't.

It's crazy but that's not necessarily "off your rocker, you're a murder spree risk". It just means you have a superstition. Maybe the kid read The Secret. Maybe he believed, as many do, that the universe would conspire to give him what he needed because he was Special.

Wrong, yes. Lowercase c crazy, yes. Evidence of deep insanity? No. (other stuff he did lent itself to that conclusion....)
 

Yoshiya

Member
all you straight men need to realise that language like "he needed to work on his game instead," i.e. learn to control/manipulate women so as to not spurn his sexual advances, is just perpetuating the same sexist bullshit that led to these people dying.

that is exactly the mentality that drove him to these murderous and misogynistic extremes. if even now we can't talk about sex/relationships with genuinely mutualistic language what hope is there ffs
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
all you straight men need to realise that language like "he needed to work on his game instead," i.e. learn to control/manipulate women so as to not spurn his sexual advances, is just perpetuating the same sexist bullshit that led to these people dying.

that is exactly the mentality that drove him to these murderous and misogynistic extremes. if even now we can't talk about sex/relationships with genuinely mutualistic language what hope is there ffs

I tend to prefer the "he needed to work on himself... and become a more fulfilled human being that is desirable to be around" type of wording. It works for men and women, too.
 

Winter John

Gold Member
He seems like a very sad, immature and lonely little boy. No doubt he was spoiled rotten, allowed to do whatever he liked and had little parental guidance.
 
Everyone keeps saying he was mentally ill (clearly he was) So what could have been done to change his views? He seemed SOOOO far gone with his opinion on woman and the envy of them being with other guys he could not enjoy anything without thinking about it. He kept on and on about the sunset and how nature was beautiful but not when youre alone, or not when you think about guys with girls that I should be with.

It is so messed up but how exactly do we treat someone like this? Pills? Intense therapy? I just wish they would have stopped him from doing this and it was a 2 page thread on here about how he attempted.

He had therapists and family that was involved and wanted to help him and he was prescribed pills to help that he refused to actually take. The most messed up thing is that he had fantastic help, but it couldn't prevent his actions.
 

squall211

Member
Being someone who is much older than him and still a virgin myself, I can relate to his sexual "frustrations". That's about all I can relate to though. That dude was seriously full of himself, and as "magnificent" as he thought he was, I can only imagine how creepy and obnoxious he must have come off to so many people.
 

gribbles

Banned
all you straight men need to realise that language like "he needed to work on his game instead," i.e. learn to control/manipulate women so as to not spurn his sexual advances, is just perpetuating the same sexist bullshit that led to these people dying.

that is exactly the mentality that drove him to these murderous and misogynistic extremes. if even now we can't talk about sex/relationships with genuinely mutualistic language what hope is there ffs

This. Even if he had managed to learn proper "game" (fuck i hate that term), it would have done nothing to change the fact that he was and always would be a misogynistic, selfish, weirdo creep loser psychopath, who viewed women as nothing more than objects and likely would have ended up abusing whichever unlucky girl he managed to dupe into dating him.
 

cajunator

Banned
Being someone who is much older than him and still a virgin myself, I can relate to his sexual "frustrations". That's about all I can relate to though. That dude was seriously full of himself, and as "magnificent" as he thought he was, I can only imagine how creepy and obnoxious he must have come off to so many people.

Im 32 and virgin. I shall be a wizard soon!
 

Persona7

Banned
Someone mentioned chris chan earlier, I think that is extremely apt. I did not read very much of that terrible manifesto but every sentence made me think of chris chan.
 
I agree. That's why I'm not rushing to blame the parents, for example. I don't know this situation, but some very troubled people have been born to some very ok parents (Dahmer comes to mind).

I disagree. The kid was handed everything in life...his problems stem from being handed everything and never having to work for anything including a girlfriend(That part can be directly blamed on his parents). He sees the end result of happy people but puts no thought into how to obtain a girlfriend other than winning the Powerball. The thing is, is that he already is rich(brags about $5,000 in the bank at age 21)...he's really just an imbecile that he doesn't understand how good he has it.

I can't imagine this guy is an actual nerd because he's a complete fucking moron. His major fuckup was never getting an interest in anything besides videogames and WoW. Yeah, that's fine to like videogames but he doesn't talk about any other interest other than that in his whole manifesto. Dude wasted his youth playing videogames and never developed any social skills or developed any other hobbies or interests. That's purely on him. That with the failure to ever ask anyone out(he doesn't know how!) and blame everyone else for his stupidity is the down fall of this guy.

As I said before from his manifesto...the gun brought about the sense of power and had he not had one this probably never would have come about even though he killed in other ways(Car, knife).

Parents, himself, and guns being legal are the reason for this atrocity.
 
D

Deleted member 1235

Unconfirmed Member
all you straight men need to realise that language like "he needed to work on his game instead," i.e. learn to control/manipulate women so as to not spurn his sexual advances, is just perpetuating the same sexist bullshit that led to these people dying.

wtf. sexist bullshit didn't lead to these people dying, an absolute lunatic asshole snapped and used one of the readily available guns in america to murder all his peers.

And working on your 'game' can also just refer to getting better at meeting girls without controlling or manipulating them.
 

Jintor

Member
wtf. sexist bullshit didn't lead to these people dying, an absolute lunatic asshole snapped and used one of the readily available guns in america to murder all his peers.

And working on your 'game' can also just refer to getting better at meeting girls without controlling or manipulating them.

I think it's pretty clear that his lunatic manifesto basically screams sexist bullshit where he considers he deserves this that or the other.

It's not an either or anyway... the perpetual sexist bullshit culture bubble he lived it definitely contributed to the idea that he could or had to act this way. But the guns being readily available etc, also a contribution
 

ref

Member
What a tragedy.

I feel bad that this guy felt this way, I wish he could have gotten help he needed to avoid this kind of outcome.

I don't know, I don't understand and never will understand the type of comments like 'Deserved it, what a pathetic guy, rot in hell, etc'. He's a human being and he obviously had a mental illness. Stigma for mental illness will never go away with comments like this. What he did was horrible, there's no two ways about it, but it was probably preventable if he had gotten the right help.
 

gribbles

Banned
Yhe thing is, is that he already is rich(brags about $5,000 in the bank at age 21)...

This part made me seriously LOL. He's a fucking spoilt rich kid and all he has is a measly 5 grand in the bank??? Fuck, I had more than that when I was 21, and I come from a fucking poor family.
 
This part made me seriously LOL. He's a fucking spoilt rich kid and all he has is a measly 5 grand in the bank??? Fuck, I had more than that when I was 21, and I come from a fucking poor family.

Anyone with $5,000 in the bank and isn't working has no fucking right to complain about not being rich. Not to mention the cars, housing, college and everything else for this doofus being paid for.
 

HerrPalomar

Neo Member
What a tragedy.

I feel bad that this guy felt this way, I wish he could have gotten help he needed to avoid this kind of outcome.

I don't know, I don't understand and never will understand the type of comments like 'Deserved it, what a pathetic guy, rot in hell, etc'. He's a human being and he obviously had a mental illness. Stigma for mental illness will never go away with comments like this. What he did was horrible, there's no two ways about it, but it was probably preventable if he had gotten the right help.

Agreed. Some people in this very thread are the reason why people with mental illness dont seek help.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
He says he had traveled the world. Any info on where he went?

I skimmed his manifesto. From what I remember: The UK, America, France, Malaysia... there may have been others.

Anyone with $5,000 in the bank and isn't working has no fucking right to complain about not being rich. Not to mention the cars, housing, college and everything else for this doofus being paid for.

I'll have to co-sign on what he said. 5 grand is a meager sum. It implies nothing about class. You could save it in a few months on a shit job.

Now, owning a BMW in your early 20s on the other hand...
 

Munin

Member
What a tragedy.

I feel bad that this guy felt this way, I wish he could have gotten help he needed to avoid this kind of outcome.

I don't know, I don't understand and never will understand the type of comments like 'Deserved it, what a pathetic guy, rot in hell, etc'. He's a human being and he obviously had a mental illness. Stigma for mental illness will never go away with comments like this. What he did was horrible, there's no two ways about it, but it was probably preventable if he had gotten the right help.

I agree. Everyone who calls him "evil" and a "monster" and dehumanizes him really just ensures that this stigma persists. His manifesto shows that he wasn't born as the devil, he was a kid like any other. Some weird chain of events that may or may not have been preventable led to a normal happy child changing into what he was at the end.

At the end of the day he was someone's son, grandson and brother too. People who now realize that they failed in trying to help him. His death brought suffering to his own family too, and probably guilt for the rest of their lives. Admitting that doesn't mean that we are making light of the suffering of the victims' families.

The real world doesn't work in terms of good and evil.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom