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[BunnyBear]

thank you for your permission!

...um. Let's!







or was that invitation was only to Wazzy's direction? ;__; in that case, pardon me, good sir.

Your posting/typing style is infuriating. I mean, really? You're trying to be condescending to other posters, yet you see no foul in presenting your posts in such a disastrous fashion? I'm begging you, treat your keyboard with respect. =(

Anyway, I think there's merit in the argument that people are looking too deep for answers regarding Rodger's motivations, when most likely it can be summed up succinctly: he was mental. He had multiple screw loose. I was willing to accept that perhaps he wasn't beyond reproach, and with the right help, could have been rehabilitated, but then I read the last 10 pages of his manifesto. Guy was terrifyingly nuts.

For those interested, ABC News did a interview with one if his housemates from last year. The guy interviewed was mentioned in the manifesto as someone Elliot considered a nerd, but liked living with. He has some interesting insights and expands on Elliot's behavior while they lived together.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Anyway, I think there's merit in the argument that people are looking too deep for answers regarding Rodger's motivations, when most likely it can be summed up succinctly: he was mental. He had multiple screw loose. I was willing to accept that perhaps he wasn't beyond reproach, and with the right help, could have been rehabilitated, but then I read the last 10 pages of his manifesto. Guy was terrifyingly nuts.

"He was mental" is a really basic examination of the situation, and it dismisses so much.

 

[BunnyBear]

"He was mental" is a really basic examination of the situation, and it dismisses so much.

I agree, but having read his diatribe, having listened and considered all the deeper arguments as to what was wrong with him, having viewed the media he uploaded, I can't help but think some are reading far too much into the tragedy. They're looking for answers where none exist. He was mentally disturbed to a point where even clinical help had no effect, yet he had the capacity to talk down police officers and psychologists and throw them off the scent. In my mind that's a special type of mental.

 

[PlayALLtheGames]

udpate 2: His 140pg manifesto

"I'm the victim in all this"? What a pathetic tool.

 

[Wazzy]

Up to that last sentence, I'd have to say you're correct.

Concluding that Rodgers was insane is indeed a simple, un-nuanced perspective. I agree that it doesn't leave much room for conversation, its sort of a dead-end. But, in this specific case of this specific individual, based on the evidence we've seen, I think its a valid conclusion. Sometimes a simple answer is an appropriate answer.

That isn't a satisfying conclusion though, if you'd like to discuss other, larger issues. This case can open the door to discussing any number of topics. We can now slide into a discussion of gun violence, misogyny, mental health...anywhere that theres information to be shared and knowledge received. Lets have it!

But I don't think it's a valid conclusion and neither do many others. Acknowledging he was mentally ill is fine and is definitely a part of the discussion but dismissing all of the factors for his misogyny by assuming it was just due to mental illness does such a disservice for people who struggle with mental illness. It makes an assumption that most mentally ill people are bigoted due to their mental state and not because of other factors which is most likely the case.

If someone went on a killing spree for no reason other than "I wanted to kill" then I can understand the conversation ending at he was just insane. But when there's other factors such as race, sexuality or gender, dismissing the larger and smaller discussion only puts us at a stand still in improving on our problems.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Here's a thought for people who think that the mental illness is the only thing worth focusing on:

If Rodger's rant hadn't sounded at least familiar (although turned up to 11) nobody would be having this reaction. The reason the misogyny aspect is getting so much attention is because it's familiar. Everybody knows somebody who thinks like this somewhat, has thought that way themselves in the past, or has been affected by somebody with these attitudes.

For my part, I think it's a shame we aren't also pushing on gun control. Easier access to guns means statistically that more people who should not have them will.

 

[Woody Invincible]

udpate 2: His 140pg manifesto

This is really a fascinating read. Delving inside his thought process is disturbing.

 

[xxracerxx]

This is really a fascinating read. Delving inside his thought process is disturbing.

It is truly fucked up. He "deserved" so much love and sex from women, but they wouldn't even talk to him. Truly a fucked up individual.

 

[Karkador]

It is truly fucked up. He "deserved" so much love and sex from women, but they wouldn't even talk to him. Truly a fucked up individual.

More like, he wouldn't talk to them

 

[xxracerxx]

More like, he wouldn't talk to them

Oh I get that, but in his twisted mind they don't talk to him.

 

[kirblar]

Here's a thought for people who think that the mental illness is the only thing worth focusing on:

If Rodger's rant hadn't sounded at least familiar (although turned up to 11) nobody would be having this reaction. The reason the misogyny aspect is getting so much attention is because it's familiar. Everybody knows somebody who thinks like this somewhat, has thought that way themselves in the past, or has been affected by somebody with these attitudes.

For my part, I think it's a shame we aren't also pushing on gun control. Easier access to guns means statistically that more people who should not have them will.

(Note: this is not my thoughts on this thread specifically, this is just my observations on why I think this topic's been getting so heated in general in various places compared to many similar situations/school shootings.)

I have actively seen some in the "social activist" mold deny that mental illness is even a potential factor here , just as I've seen the same done by idiot guys on misogyny. I've also seen pushback against the possibility mental illness that seems to be completely based in the fear that others with mental health issues will be stereotyped based on his actions. I feel like there's an unnecessary clash between the desire of some who are primarily interested in leveraging this as a way to highlight awareness and those who are already aware, and who are interested in dissecting the incident and learning from it.

One side ends up interested in narrative and outward expression directed at other people, while the other is concerned with raw data directed inward. This then seems to result in claims from the former group that a mixed/nuanced viewpoint form the latter group is trying to derail discussion or claim that "it wasn't a factor", leading the latter group pretty feeling like they're being lumped in with the actual deniers who they're also in opposition to and sparking a battle of words that keeps either type of discussion from being able to progress.

If there's one thing that's been highlighted for me in the discussions that have spiraled out of this incident, it's that empathy is hard. Men don't innately understand the perspective of women. Women don't innately understand the perspective of men. Those who have never had to deal with mental illness directly (either in themselves or others) don't innately understand the perspective those who have lived within any degree of it. We don't all process information the same way, and it feels like those basic Myers-Briggs types lead to conflict as people get upset that others simply aren't thinking about it in the same way they do.

And understanding this is important, not just for discussing these issues, but for life in general. Finding about psychographics through MTG (Not every card is for you!) is probably the most singularly important concept that's altered how I think about things as an adult. Take games. We're all here because we play them, but we don't all play them for the same reason. Some play because they enjoy mastering things. Some play because they like the social aspect and cooperating with other people in team play. Some like getting attention via the "High Score Board" putting their name up in lights. These are all valid reasons, but people tend to believe that their reason is superior. Hence, XBOX v PS4. Casual v Hardcore. Facebook v Console. All these turf wars, all these expressions of why their preferences and way of thinking is better, all that wasted energy.

We aren't all going to think about things the same way, and that's a good thing. It allows us different perspectives that allow us to more fully illuminate topics. From one perspective an issue might not be an issue (SNL just wants the funniest women, race shouldn't matter) but from another it can suddenly be illuminated (If there are no women of color on SNL, women of color in the real world can't be represented as characters!) If we all sort of hold back on the attacks if we think someone's implying something until after they've been asked or prodded for clarification, I think we'd all end up in a better place. And this doesn't mean that we should have to tolerate obviously dumb things, either, but poking and prodding for meaning and context keeps things from spiraling unnecessarily out of control. (xxracerxx's two posts above me are a perfect example.)

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

Ugh, so many news outlets are using that stupid "The Virgin Killer" moniker. Keep shooting for the stars, media.

 

[leadbelly]

leadbelly: I have no idea what you're trying to say, your posts read like jumbles of vaguely-related words with no real thesis to me.

My posts? Meaning all my posts?

You said it is bizarre that people are trying to minimise the extent in which misogyny played a role in it.

My actual point I originally made in this thread, is that I don't think society was the root cause of his misogyny. which is the talking point for some, especially in the press, I think it wasn't an external influence that brought him to that point, it was internal. It was a number of circumstances that accumulated to form a very toxic recipe, with mental issues being a significant part.

And so in terms of that particular talking point, it may appear I am trying the 'minimise the role' of misogyny while placing the blame on his mental illness. I was just saying it was something a number of people genuinely believe though,

And actually, it is a confusing point because I'm not saying misogyny within society didn't have some influence in his worldview, just that his mental issues and his specific circumstances are what brought him to that point in the first place. That is confusing actually. lol

Maybe it would help if I outlined what brought me to that conclusion:

Once you have read his whole manifesto, it is fair to say that his biggest obsession and the thing that most antognised him was sex. He hated people who spoke about it, he hated people having it, he simply couldn't cope with the fact that some people have had it, and he hasn't. He created a political theory where he envisioned a world where no one was allowed to have sex. This theory was then extended into his ferocious rant at the end.

He didn't care if it was a man or woman in that respect, he had an immense hatred for people who had sex. His misogyny was the ultimate expression of that issue however. They were the ones keeping him from having sex.

I'll just outline what his issues were: A problem with social interaction, an extreme obsession with sex, and a propensity to act in a way that is hugely disproportionate to the thing that triggered his reaction.

Sex was the thing that seemed to antagonise him the most. It wasn't the only thing he hated though. Simply having a better life than him, being more successful than him, and having more fun than him, were all reasons for him to react badly.

I have actually gave clear example of just how extreme he would react to things.
This post here actually discusses the very beginning of his obsession.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=113833810&postcount=3836
He first became interested in sex when someone showed him a porn movie in Europe. This is when he first started masturbating. He wasn't sexually interested in girls up until this point. No matter what way you look at it, the way he reacted to the mere talk of sex was extreme. As I said in that post, it was as if someone had brutally murdered his parents. I thought, "if that is how he reacted to just talk of sex, how would he react if a girl rejected him, or just girls in general?". It's fair to say it wouldn't be very well.

That is just the beginning. there are plenty more examples after that. Interestingly a large chunk of the manifesto at this point isn't really about his hate of women at all, His hate seems to be directed at various boys concerning sex.

Another example:

Twelve-year-old Leo was making out with a girl who was almost my
age. Not only does Leo have a better social life, but now he was making out with girls,AT AGE TWELVE! They made out for a long time, and I could see them tongue kiss. They knew I was watching with envy, and they still did it. I bet that lucky bastard took great satisfaction from my envy. There I was, watching a boy four years younger than me experience everything I’ve longed for… to kiss a girl… to be worthy of a girl’s attraction. On that day, I developed a vicious hatred for Leo that will never go away.

A vicious hatred that would never go away. That;s quite an overreaction, isn't it?

He pretty much outlines what his real issues were here:

I felt that no girl would ever want to have sex with me… And I developed extreme feelings of envy, hatred, and anger towards anyone who has a sex life. I saw them as the enemy.

Anyone who has a sex life, or any contact with a girl was the enemy. That is extreme. He was even extremely angry with his mother for giving his sister;s boyfriend money to go to England, because he had a sex life, and so was the enemy

So what I am saying is, that particular set of circumstances, A problem with social interaction, an extreme obsession with sex, and a propensity to act in a way that is hugely disproportionate to the thing that triggered his reaction, was always going to lead down the path that ultimately created his toxic views.

It is not even that misogyny was his main issue, his main issue was his extreme obsession with sex, misogyny is just the ultimate expression of his issues, it was the logical end point. Women were (excuse the term) the object of his obsession.

 

[PaperFlame]

I don't really want to make a thread because I don't know if all the facts are true, but a guy brought a gun in the library of my community college (Pierce college) today and was going to kill people.

The LAPD came and shot him and took him away.

I was about to go to school today to use the ATM but decided to go to Wells Fargo.

 

[.GqueB.]

I don't really want to make a thread because I don't know if all the facts are true, but a guy brought a gun in the library of my community college (Pierce college) today and was going to kill people.

The LAPD came and shot him and took him away.

I was about to go to school today to use the ATM but decided to go to Wells Fargo.

Seems like something went down

Doesn't look like he was shot though.

 

[YesNOnoNOYes]

Your posting/typing style is infuriating. I mean, really? You're trying to be condescending to other posters, yet you see no foul in presenting your posts in such a disastrous fashion? I'm begging you, treat your keyboard with respect. =(

Anyway, I think there's merit in the argument that people are looking too deep for answers regarding Rodger's motivations, when most likely it can be summed up succinctly: he was mental. He had multiple screw loose. I was willing to accept that perhaps he wasn't beyond reproach, and with the right help, could have been rehabilitated, but then I read the last 10 pages of his manifesto. Guy was terrifyingly nuts.

For those interested, ABC News did a interview with one if his housemates from last year. The guy interviewed was mentioned in the manifesto as someone Elliot considered a nerd, but liked living with. He has some interesting insights and expands on Elliot's behavior while they lived together.

My typing style infuriates you? Oh, my. We can't have that, can we? :>

Your narratives infuriates a lot of people though. Well, me, at the least.

Just sayin'. Summing it up succinctly as he was mental. SURE. Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe, he wasnt beyond reproach? You meant, maybe he wasn't beyond salvage? Maybe?

Butbutbut, reading the last 10 pages of his manifesto, guy was terrifyingly NUTS yo.













oh hold on. i have to treat my keyboard with respect or something. someone was begging me. i am glad to report that my keyboard is functional and has been treated with equal handling of an average typist.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

This is really a fascinating read. Delving inside his thought process is disturbing.

I think it will become a staple for criminal psychology classes.

 

[Deified Data]

Everyone in this thread who wasn't there has a "narrative".

Hilarious seeing that word thrown around as if anyone here is capable of painting a picture of objective truth. Only one who could have possibly done that was the killer, and considering his state of mind I'm sure he had a few narratives spinning in his head himself.

 

[DemurOnion]

This was parenting issues. The DAD even admits he wasn't there. When will this country stop its fucking obsession with money when there are kids to tend to. We are falling apart as far as parental care and mental health. SERIOUS fucking issues going forward if you want to walk on the streets safe at any time of the day imo. I really hope American starts putting mental health 1st not second.

All this prozac and shite is NOT working en masse, never has, and most of these dudes are on these medicines or some combo of medicines when they choose to do these things.

I'll be honest I don't even go out much anymore. People in this country apparently now think that if their life is bad it's okay to get a gun and go murder people. Really, though, this is what I am getting from all these loners and nutjobs. Some crazy homechooled family was just killed by their son the other day because of mental issues. It happens almost literally EVERY DAY in America. At some point we are going to wake up.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

This was parenting issues. The DAD even admits he wasn't there. When will this country stop its fucking obsession with money when there are kids to tend to. We are falling apart as far as parental care and mental health. SERIOUS fucking issues going forward if you want to walk on the streets safe at any time of the day imo. I really hope American starts putting mental health 1st not second.

He was getting help his entire life.

 

[YesNOnoNOYes]

SNIP

It is not even that misogyny was his main issue, his main issue was his extreme obsession with sex, misogyny is just the ultimate expression of his issues, it was the logical end point. Women were (excuse the term) the object of his obsession.

...

not sure if serious but bolded part is actually text book case of misogyny, specially the part where we become objects.

Look, I have nothing against leadbellies. All I am saying is that after all that words you've put in your post, which is clearly a thoughtful post, your points boiled down to a circular reasoning around misogyny.

Stating that misogyny was not his main issue but rather it was the end point only to go back and stating that his obsession is rooted in his inability to see past women as objects to his obsession.............. is not a winning argument to frame the narrative of relegation of misogyny in his psychosis.



I also have to say that I do not think misogyny is the singular root cause of Rodger's issues, by the way. People may have been raging too hard through their eyes, maybe due to my style of speaking (cuz lets focus on that lol) (nope)

I am only saying that, to me, he was clearly misogynistic and that it was a substantial aspect that affected his mental health, and that his crimes had a lot to do with his problems with women.

In short, downplaying an aspect of his issues reeks of societal deeply-ingrained denial of that very issue. And that, I find that rather disconcerting.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

This was parenting issues. The DAD even admits he wasn't there. When will this country stop its fucking obsession with money when there are kids to tend to. We are falling apart as far as parental care and mental health. SERIOUS fucking issues going forward if you want to walk on the streets safe at any time of the day imo. I really hope American starts putting mental health 1st not second.

All this prozac and shite is NOT working en masse, never has, and most of these dudes are on these medicines or some combo of medicines when they choose to do these things.

I'll be honest I don't even go out much anymore. People in this country apparently now think that if their life is bad it's okay to get a gun and go murder people. Really, though, this is what I am getting from all these loners and nutjobs. Some crazy homechooled family was just killed by their son the other day because of mental issues. It happens almost literally EVERY DAY in America. At some point we are going to wake up.

This is hilarious considering the post right above it that nails it.

You calling out Prozac shows how much you know about mental health at all. You might as well have blamed this on Doom 2 if you're going to be that dated.

 

[kirblar]

Everyone in this thread who wasn't there has a "narrative".

Hilarious seeing that word thrown around as if anyone here is capable of painting a picture of objective truth. Only one who could have possibly done that was the killer, and considering his state of mind I'm sure he had a few narratives spinning in his head himself.

It's used (at least in my case) in the sense that someone might wish to present the issue in such a way as to maximize its leverage in achieving social awareness or change and may be actively invested in preventing that viewpoint from being disrupted due to the value they place in it as a tool.

This was parenting issues. The DAD even admits he wasn't there. When will this country stop its fucking obsession with money when there are kids to tend to. We are falling apart as far as parental care and mental health. SERIOUS fucking issues going forward if you want to walk on the streets safe at any time of the day imo. I really hope American starts putting mental health 1st not second.

All this prozac and shite is NOT working en masse, never has, and most of these dudes are on these medicines or some combo of medicines when they choose to do these things.

I'll be honest I don't even go out much anymore. People in this country apparently now think that if their life is bad it's okay to get a gun and go murder people. Really, though, this is what I am getting from all these loners and nutjobs. Some crazy homechooled family was just killed by their son the other day because of mental issues. It happens almost literally EVERY DAY in America. At some point we are going to wake up.

There have always been crazy people, mass murderers, people who think the pope is an alien, etc. They were just not as visible. The world hasn't changed, you've just grown more aware of what you're living in due to growing up and the internet.

 

[master15]

Honestly I skimmed through the manifesto and haven't been really being paying attention that much to the coverage. I am curious has anyone commented and theorized why Rodger didn't kill his brother and step-mom as he lays out? Was there a change of circumstances or did he simply have second thoughts?

 

[GoodCoffeeJoey]

Some MRA sites are now trying to portray this guy as some kind of radical feminist. Karl Rove strategy in action.

 

[OneFiftyOne]

The whole concept of "virgin shaming" is so bizarre to me. Less than a hundred years ago, unmarried men were expected to be virgins (how many actually were is obviously open to debate).

I've read quite a few great articles linked from this thread on "toxic masculinity" and virgin shaming. I think some great work could be done on the connection between the slow demise of female repression and these phenomena. I don't think it can possibly be a coincidence that they arose at the same time. Anyone have any good reading material on that?

There is no 'toxic masculinity', only projection of one's own insecurities onto someone else. There is nothing inherently insecure about masculinity.

Bleh.

I'm still mulling over whether or not society provided women as a scapegoat or that he originally hated women with little input of society but you are painting his misogyny as a fabrication that was just created by chaotic thoughts.

The insanity reduced his barriers to kill. His insanity reduced his ability to rethink his positions.
Plenty of guys who hate on women don't go on a murderous rampage and opt to do other things to hurt them.

Actually, it's killers and rapists and haters who scapegoat society for their own failures and crimes. If you insist that a person who harms someone else did so because society has not raised him properly, you deny that he has responsibility for his own choices and actions. Elliot Rodger clearly though he was not responsible for his own actions.

 

[gribbles]

Honestly I skimmed through the manifesto and haven't been really being paying attention that much to the coverage. I am curious has anyone commented and theorized why Rodger didn't kill his brother and step-mom as he lays out? Was there a change of circumstances or did he simply have second thoughts?

Probably because his so-called "Day of Retribution" didn't turn out the way he'd hoped, so he just offed himself.

 

[The One Who Knocks]

Honestly I skimmed through the manifesto and haven't been really being paying attention that much to the coverage. I am curious has anyone commented and theorized why Rodger didn't kill his brother and step-mom as he lays out? Was there a change of circumstances or did he simply have second thoughts?

Kind of.

In this moment he recognises that to murder his step-mother and brother his father would have to be on a business trip.

In this moment, suffering a cold, he hastily pushes back the date and presumably his father wouldn't be away at this time, and he was unprepared to do harm to him. The reason he chose this date is because he states that, shortly after this time, the term would end and there would be less people to kill in the area. His father's presence is likely the reason that he was unable to carry through on that desire.

 

[StayDead]

It is truly fucked up. He "deserved" so much love and sex from women, but they wouldn't even talk to him. Truly a fucked up individual.

Well the big issue is society and especially the media make you look like a failure if you don't mate with another member of the species and for a lot of people that's an incredible amount of pressure.

Another topic that gets brought up is that it's a human right to have children which admittedly you can have children whenever you want, but when that's constantly thrown down your throat by people and you're not in a situation where it's "that easy" then it can lead to a lot of frustration.

It's much the same reason why rape is a thing that occurs. People get told by society that they need to go out and have sex and life without sex is nothing and when people can't find someone to do it with, they get frustrated and rather than just see that sex isn't all that important they blame the other people because, just like everyone else, they should be having sex too. They then go and get the sex society makes them think they need to have in unlawful ways.

Actually, it's killers and rapists and haters who scapegoat society for their own failures and crimes. If you insist that a person who harms someone else did so because society has not raised him properly, you deny that he has responsibility for his own choices and actions. Elliot Rodger clearly though he was not responsible for his own actions.

They don't scapegoat society saying that society hadn't raised them properly, it's just they blame the pressure put on individual people by the big society, which is a huge issue for causing them to either find hatred or snap. Look at the sheer amount of suicides each year caused by men in their 30s-40s who are severely depressed because they can't provide for their families like society shames them into think it's their job to do.