How about the mind-blowing idea that he not only resented everyone, but he also was specifically racist and specifically misogynistic, and all of these things played into his ideology and the reasons he killed?
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Seven Dead, Several Hospitalized in Isla Vista Mass Shooting
- Thread starter tehbible
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Seeing his reason again for killing his brother, it was indeed partly to do with him getting sex and him not. I remember reading it, but it was more along the lines of him having a better life than him. That's how I remember it. Which actually kind of is basically what he is saying anyway. He couldn't cope with the fact that his brother would become more successful than him and one of the 'popular kids' who will get all the girls.
As far as his roommates he killed them just to get them out of the way. As that states.
Interestingly I missed that part in the 'retribution' video also, which watching again he does refer to, but also gives greater context.
He states:
I missed the hedonistic pleasure bit. Of course 'hedonism' doesn't necessarily mean sex, but he could be meaning that, Again though, not really about 'hatred of women' it is about people having a better life than him. and him being jealous of that.
I think you're right though. In one way or another, it does seem to lead back to his problem of not being able to form relationships.
Well, he hated women, but in terms of his manifesto he did hate everyone in one way or another. I think Gentleman Jack is right though, in the sense that, sex and people having a better life than him was especially antagonising to him What i don't believe though is that it is misogynistically motivated even though connected, That isn't whatt he really says. It is always in the context of them having a better life than him.
speculawyer
Member
WTF? Did anyone tell this guy about masturbation? Its sex without having to put up with the little annoyances of your significant other.
MulderWasTaken
Member
I know they shouldn't put this guy on the news or cover of newspaper, but did the police catch him or did he kill himself?
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
I think he mentioned he didn't start masturbating till he was like 19 or so...so I imagine he had some strange hook-up with that as well.
Reposting this because of all the other posts and reminding folk it's hard to tell who's trolling anymore:
Just awful.
The One Who Knocks
Member
I'm not sure where you've read that, but he mentioned he masturbated the first time when he was fourteen years old and he goes into a rather unappealing level of detail about what was one of the 'most peculiar and memorabl experiences of [his] life' and continued doing so 'on a regular basis'. It wasn't really a sexual release he wanted, and neither a sexual release or a girlfriend really would have done much for him.
entremet
Member
The guys had severe isolation issues. He was alone almost all the time. He describes his parent's divorce at 7 the biggest turning point of life. He had trouble connecting to others in meaningful ways. It doesn't excuse what he did of course, but to say getting a GF, getting laid, or anything like that misses the point. His issues were way too vast.
Didn't notice that before. That is certainly alarming.
Coreda
Member
So 4chan's /fit/ board have a thread up about newspapers falling for a troll hoax by a fitmisc.com member, who made up fake evidence that Elliot took Creatine pills for body building, changing his behavior and mood leading up to the murders. There's a write up of the hoax here.
Some photoshopped chats with Elliot sent to news reporters, and the story even reaching the print edition of the Daily Mirror lol.
Some photoshopped chats with Elliot sent to news reporters, and the story even reaching the print edition of the Daily Mirror lol.
The Henery
Member
I just howled with laughter. I cannot believe the creatine troll has hit the mainstream press. This is what I meant when I said this whole thing was a watershed moment in internet culture. I'm creeped out at the fact that Rodgers was an active poster/OP maker on the misc, which I've frequented on and off for years; that it wasn't trolling but real. And now this.
Coreda
Member
You said it way better than I could.
Dude Abides
Banned
Trying to amateurishly psychologically profile this guy and come to a firm conclusion as to why he did it based on his manifesto and a handful of YouTube videos is pretty silly.
Especially if you replaced the references to women with, say, jews, and read about how he wished to put them into concentration camps. 'Of course he wasn't anti-semitic, he was merely unhinged'.
Random Painted HIghway
Member
Only a small minority of the posters in this thread have outright denied the existence of misogyny with regards to this killer. To state otherwise is a mischaracterization of many posters seeking a broader discussion than one focused on the singular issue of misogyny.
"Direct discussion away from misogyny"? I think that phrase says it all really, of your perspective. Surely discussions regarding the killing can include other aspects of the killer beyond the misogyny without accusations of purposefully directing the discussion away from that issue? This killer was more than just a woman hater. Isn't it interesting to discuss how he got to where he got which necessarily includes things beyond the misogyny? Do posters have to begin their thoughts with a disclaimer regarding misogyny before bringing up parental responsibilities, gun control, mental health in order to not be accused of hiding from their own societal demons? That strikes me as an exceedingly juvenile requirement.
HamPster PamPster
Member
There was a well done hour on NPR about this case and misogyny
http://onpoint.wbur.org/2014/05/28/misogyny-isla-vista-murder-shooting
http://onpoint.wbur.org/2014/05/28/misogyny-isla-vista-murder-shooting
Misogyny And Murder: Unpacking A Killing In California said:
What does it say?
digoutyoursoul
Member
Reposting this because of all the other posts and reminding folk it's hard to tell who's trolling anymore:
Nothing on the internet surprise me anymore, only a couple of days ago here in the UK a 62 year old man was arrested for making a twitter account of the "ghost" of a murdered child from over decade ago and was tweeting the child's mother.
Yeah. Speaking of myself, I haven''t actually directed the discussion away from misogyny, I haven't claimed he wasn't a misogynist, I just think the path that led him to that conclusion was more internal than it was external.
And if people contest that view, well they are free to do so, but it will always be a point of disagreement with me.
There is a number of reasons why I think that, but an example in terms of what Rodger has said about himself (someone posted it earlier so it is easy to access) would be the time when he first started masturbating. I suppose you could say that is the very beginning of his obsession. He says quite an odd thing about being "finally interested in girls" like he wasn't really before then. It's odd because he was 14 years old. It's odd, come think about it, that he started masturbating at 14.
He then goes from odd into extreme He speaks about how his friends in school started talking about the sex they had with their girlfriends.
His reaction to that was extreme:
He then goes on to say:
You'd think someone had brutally murdered his parents in cold blood the way he reacted. Societal influence? Well, he didn't start masturbating until he was 14 years old. he wasn't even interested in women like that until he was 14 years old. And at the start of his sexual awakening, the mere talk of a boy having sex with a girl crushed him deeply. So much so he developed an intense hatred of them.
You can go on and on about things like that in his manifesto. He wanted to have sex and he hated men for it just as much as he hated women for it. Maybe I am understating his hate for women, maybe that was worse. In any case, it is clear that he was always going to have that clash with women no matter what. It is right there at the beginning, and it was to do with his psychologically unstable mind.
http://i.imgur.com/SR28HuK.png
Deliverance
Neo Member
I don't know if any of you posted it already, but the pieces of shit at Return of Kings wrote that Rodger was a feminist. I can't believe what I just read, I truly can't.
entremet
Member
That's like getting outraged that stormfront thinks Obama is a Muslim.
They clearly have their twisted agenda. I wouldn't give them the clicks.
User 100115
Banned
Of course they did, MRA types are desperate to paint this as anything but what it is.
Devolution
Member
I hate to do that thing where you compare groups of oppressed people but if he was writing about how blacks, jews, gays would we really see so much bullshit trying to minimize his hatred?
MonkeyKing
Member
In the wake of a disaster like this, we naturally ask: how did this happen? Why did this happen?
From there, people can springboard into what they want to focus on. It might be gun control, mental health, misogyny or something else.
Some people really want to talk about misogyny. That's fair play, but I think that in this case, its sort of putting the cart before the horse. Simply put: the man was insane. At a core, base level, he was completely out of his mind. His hatred of women...and there is no doubt that his hatred of women was a overwhelming factor in his thinking...was a manifestation of his mental illness. I am not minimizing the effects of misogyny is this case (or in general society) , but I do see it in the context of the overriding issue: we're talking about someone that is completely batshit crazy.
I'm a simpleton. I don't spend a lot of energy trying to decipher the motives of the insane, because they are insane. A reasonable examination of common societal factors doesn't really apply when you're talking about someone that is beyond reasoning. Everything that he wrote, felt, said and did, demonstrates that he was an unreasonable actor.
User 100115
Banned
I hate going there too but it's 100% true. It's fucking depressing and terrifying how this entire thing is playing out. People just don't want to face reality, so they are pretending it's something else in order to sleep at night/ feel better about their own views.
Devolution
Member
I just think women suck and are ultimately to blame for my loneliness and feelings of inferiority.
What's wrong with that.
User 100115
Banned
Oh nothing, because you're not crazy.
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
u wot m8
Mr_Appleby
Member
i don't think your problem is with women, it's more that you have feelings of inferiority and are lonely.
Random Painted HIghway
Member
My point was that you are arguing with bogeymen on that issue.
So I saw a video earlier of a news show trying to link World of Warcraft to this. Did they just skim over everything else in that guy's manifesto?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MABhXCPZHIE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MABhXCPZHIE
Just as long as we're clear that your opinion here comes only from your personal experiences of mean women causing you to feel lonely and inferior, without the least bit of influence from the society and culture that you grew up in, live in, and are immersed in every day of your life.
However, these mental health issues really do play into information we have about the overall problem of violence against women. It's nearly impossible to talk about this specific individual and event fully without talking about the other, because they are intertwined in this particular instance.
Obviously, not all misogynists are mentally ill. And we know that not all misogynists commit violence against women. But what we do know is that the perpetrators of violence against women are pretty much all misogynists. And we do have information on how (at least part) of that subset of violent male perpetrators differs from the rest of the population of non-violent males (misogynists and non included.)
In the 1980s-1990s they started surveying the population to find information on undetected rapists who had not been incarcerated. They were able to do this because these rapists don't think of themselves as rapists, echoing much of the same sort of twisted logic you see come out of the mouths of child predators. These surveys provided them with data about the subgroup of undetected rapists walking around among us, and that data showed stark differences between that section of the population and the rest of the males. Found here (Understanding the Predatory Nature of Sexual Violence , pages 6-7), this passage summarizes their findings on how exactly this group was differing from the "normal" male population:
This sounds exactly like the person we're discussing, point for point. We normally don't get such a detailed window into the way that a guy like this is processing his feelings and emotions through such a twisted lens, and that's why people are interested in discussing just how he developed these misogynistic views. How many threads on GAF have we had where a male poster is being made uncomfortable by a male acquaintance's problematic behavior towards women, where they'd like to be able to intervene and do something but aren't sure how to help (or if it's even possible for them to do so?) Discussing what leads to these men being drawn to these points of view and how you can help back them off of them is a good thing, because it gives people information they can utilize in order to push back against it.
In this murderer's case, it seems highly likely that without medical intervention, dissuading him of his viewpoints would have been near-impossible. Learning what behaviors, outbursts, types of writing, and loops of logic might be indicating that you have a ticking time bomb on your hands in need of intervention from either health or police authorities could help prevent people from getting hurt. This knowledge lets us put information in new perspectives in our daily lives- such as when I think we all were suddenly very concerned about the poster with the "Gets angry at sex roommate". I think we all are looking at that behavior in a whole new light after this. Thankfully, I believe that poster was confirmed to be alive and wellt.
However,mental illness is clearly not going to be a primary contributing factor for the development of misogynistic views in every person. Numerous posters previously in the thread mentioned that they were able to break out of a cycle of problematic emotions directed towards women via self-reflection. Learning what misguided feelings those people were having that were pushing them in that direction helps give us a way into their heads so that if we see a friend or sibling getting themselves into trouble. We even had a poster earlier in this thread admit that he was scared at how similar his thought patterns were to what he read from this guy, and asked for help. Hopefully he's been able to reach out to someone, either here on the forums or in real life, and I suspect there are many people here who'd be willing to do so if necessary.
Yes, a lot of male posters have been interested in getting inside this guy's head, along with the heads of others who have previously been living and breathing in the misogynistic jerk-zone. But this often isn't motivated by sympathy, but one of empathy, and an attempt to fully comprehend the tragedy that occurred in California. And I think that's where this discussion/argument is hitting a giant snag, because it's approaching the issue from the complete opposite direction. Instead of looking through the eyes of the victimized and trying to listen to their concerns, its trying to look through the eyes of the perpetrators and figure them out. At a core level, some of these initial emotions and feelings ring familiar to many other males, even if the thought processes that twist them into virulent hatred are completely foreign to them. This isn't always coming out very well, or very intelligently (the posts about "just needing sex" are incredibly reminiscent of the way most unfamiliar with the literature on rape would assume that rape is all about sex) but really does seem to be driven by the desire to understand what drew him to these viewpoints and websites. The idea that this came to him only because he was exposed to them externally rings hollow to many of us who never picked up those viewpoints despite being exposed to them, or those who have acknowledged holding them at one point without having ever visited an MRA website.
Those MRA websites were not magically deposited there on stone tablets by a divine being. Our society is made up of and created by people. It is a reflection of us. Sometimes that reflection shows the best parts of us. And sometimes that reflection is a dark, scary thing. The "obvious", easy answer is always to blame external forces, but those external forces originated somewhere. They originated with us. Our culture is an ever-evolving thing, changing as we mold it over the years, decades, and centuries. Part of changing that culture means making people aware of the need to change. But part of changing that culture also means that we need to learn what we can change and what we should change.
There was a very good Slate article (here) on the difficulties men have viewing the world through women's eyes in various situations, as they're looking for masculine behaviors and will misunderstand the situation. How it makes it difficult for the men to realize and acknowledge when there is an issue because they live on the winning end of the physical power imbalance in our species and are viewing things through that perspective. However, once a person/group starts to realize there is a problem, the next question becomes "why is this happening?" And thus the spotlight then turns to the people most responsible for creating these problems for women, the men. Because if we don't figure out why some of us males keep hurting you, we're not going to learn what we can best do to stop it.
MonkeyKing
Member
I don't think you're being disallowed or dissuaded from talking about what factors fueled his mania. We would agree that there is a wide spectrum of mental illnesses and disorders, yes? Isn't there some point where you fall off the scale and dive into the abyss? Isn't that where we're likely to find Rodgers? When a guy fantasizes about torturing and killing half the human race....isn't that a level of disorder that overshadows the other, individual factors?
(edited to replace "trumps" with "overshadows", didn't like the way it looked after I sent it....)
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
YEAH BUT LIKE... but like..... he HATED everyone, guys. So he's not really really misogynistic.
sigh
Devo, Fiction, Cyan, animlboogy you guys rock
sigh
Devo, Fiction, Cyan, animlboogy you guys rock
faceless007
Member
This way of looking at the matter has no explanatory power and is basically useless. It does nobody any good and provides no form of insight to simply write him off as "insane" as if that's the end of the matter and all that needs to be said. "Insane" is a poorly defined social construct, not a legitimate diagnosis of the killer or scientific explanation. Some of us are not satisfied by attaching an arbitrary label to him, but would instead prefer to delve into the social and biological causes, whatever that may be, that led to him turning out the way he did--especially because his thought patterns and worldview that motivated his crimes are notably similar to the views of certain other groups who exist and are rather vocal. If you are content to simply write him off with a convenient word as if it requires no further explanation, so be it, but I find that a rather incurious and unsatisfying way of viewing the matter, and I don't see anything gained by stopping there.
If someone has such a specific target then chalking it up as just "they're insane" does absolutely nothing but skip any discussion and changes that come from dissecting why his views and attitude were the way they are. It's also an easy way out of people taking responsibility.
MonkeyKing
Member
Ok I'll start with this:
Now if you think that "insane" is poorly defined, arbitrary and not a legitimate diagnosis as it relates to Rodgers, I'd love to know how you would define him. From my perspective, he man was a loon, and everything else flows from there.
Again: if you want to take this case as a springboard to address misogyny, by all means, please do go ahead. If you already have, then please continue.
The thing is, we do have a fair bit of insight with regards to Rodgers. We have his writings and his videos....and we know his ultimate outcome. We know that he was violent, cruel, hateful, extraordinarily delusional, insecure, and that he lacked empathy or insight. We also know that he actively avoided interventions. He hid his intentions from both law enforcement and from mental health professionals. He constructed his own little world where he was always the victim of others. And if we can believe what he wrote, he had little moments of aggression....like the coffee throwing incidents...that were essentially practice runs for his final outburst.
Now if you think that "insane" is poorly defined, arbitrary and not a legitimate diagnosis as it relates to Rodgers, I'd love to know how you would define him. From my perspective, he man was a loon, and everything else flows from there.
Again: if you want to take this case as a springboard to address misogyny, by all means, please do go ahead. If you already have, then please continue.
MonkeyKing
Member
Good post. I have some quibbles here and there, but overall I feel you.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
As others have said, if you feel this way, especially if you feel like harming others, get help. You clearly want it and that's good. You understand your thoughts are wrong. But you can't let your fear of others stop you. That's how things like this shooting happen. Therapy can and will help you.
But you also need to be willing to talk, and that means confronting the shit inside of you.
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
He was clearly mentally unstable and was not receiving help / treatment / support before his disgusting views solidified.
He was also misogynistic.
The two does not negate each other.
However, on this thread, one group of posters had stated, on various posts, that he hated EVERYONE, thereby downplaying his focus against women. For whatever reasons, these posts kept cropping up!
Also, as far as I am aware, the other side has never, ever, ever denied that he was mentally unstable.
But, nooooooooooooo, the most important thing is to establish that he was INSANE and that he was probably born that way and his misogyny is just one of the numerous, various, many, many other factors. Many other factors, OKAY.
He was also misogynistic.
The two does not negate each other.
However, on this thread, one group of posters had stated, on various posts, that he hated EVERYONE, thereby downplaying his focus against women. For whatever reasons, these posts kept cropping up!
Also, as far as I am aware, the other side has never, ever, ever denied that he was mentally unstable.
But, nooooooooooooo, the most important thing is to establish that he was INSANE and that he was probably born that way and his misogyny is just one of the numerous, various, many, many other factors. Many other factors, OKAY.
The One Who Knocks
Member
I very much disagree here. Yes, as you say he had a huge variety of problems, but the impact culture had upon him cannot be overlooked or minimised. One of the most significant moments in the manifesto is when he directly states that he acquired validation of his ideals
He formed them through 'educating' himself, took pleasure in their presence in entertainment (I've not seen this movie so don't know how distorted his views are, but I very much doubt it's meant to be read in that manner), and helped to reinforce his views in these manners (that's ignoring what he saw through games [the industry also quite misogynistic in how it portrays women] and other online forums where people with extremist views can seek validation by existing within an echo-chamber). Perhaps if we lived in a society where 'acquiring' women isn't seen as an achievement, where women are not portrayed primarily as being weak and needing a 'tall, blonde, muscular male' to 'defend' them, where women aren't shamed as 'sluts' for expressing their sexuality while men are regarded as 'players', where men don't brag about their ventures with women (which he makes note of numerous times, even if his idea of 'bragging' is most likely inaccurate with regard to the extremity), and where hatred for women cannot be reinforced and left to fester he would have been disuaded from carrying out the act, and would have abandoned such clearly misogynistic and radical views. Would he have focused his hatred elsewhere? It's likely, as you say he was very far gone, but all we know for certain is that his personal experiences, his mental illness, and the society in which we live led to him developing an intense, seering hatred for women, which he viewed as objects. I think you're placing too little emphasis upon the societal impact that existed in focusing his hatred.
Just on this note, he had actually been seeing people at thirteen (and presumably had since then, but he only focuses on the various life coaches and passes over his experience with psychiatric services) so "not receiving help..." is probably a little too extreme, and "receiving inadequate help..." probably a little closer to the situation. I'm probably just being pedantic here though, and this could have been what you meant.
unknownstranger
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