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Seven Dead, Several Hospitalized in Isla Vista Mass Shooting

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leadbelly

Banned
What are you apologizing for? It's not like you've earnestly tried to understand anything anybody else has said. Personally, I'm pretty tired of watching you ignore all the white elephants in the room to tell us "your view".

I don't think I have though.

Is it ignoring or is it 'my opinion'? :p

Her view seems to be, like others here and in the media have stated, toxic and rampant misogyny in society is the cause, or at least a big part of it, for the mass murder. It is misogyny played out to its logical end. I simply gave my view. It is my opinion.

What am I missing. Care to explain it to me? Seriously.
 

Brakke

Banned
That article is severely idiotic.

The actual primary source article, http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifes...c7e7ea-e40d-11e3-afc6-a1dd9407abcf_story.html, doesn't even name Seth Rogen, just takes Neighbors as a handy example of the real problem:

Ann Hornaday said:
Part of what makes cinema so potent is the way even its most outlandish characters and narratives burrow into and fuse with our own stories and identities. When the dominant medium of our age — both as art form and industrial practice — is in the hands of one gender, what may start out as harmless escapist fantasies can, through repetition and amplification, become distortions and dangerous lies.

Every year, San Diego State University researcher Martha Lauzen releases a “Celluloid Ceiling” report in which she delivers distressing statistics regarding the state of women in Hollywood. This year, she found that women made up just 16 percent of directors, writers, producers, cinematographers and editors working on the top 250 movies of 2013; similarly, women accounted for just 15 percent of protagonists in those films.

Also holy shit Apatow's lashing back doesn't recommend him very highly. Basically pulling a Charles Barkley "I'm not a role model" defense with a side of not reading the article in question. Her point is clearly "this is a broad Hollywood culture problem, here see these statistics" and then Apatow takes it as an indictment of him individually. #notallapatows?
 

leadbelly

Banned
You were given a link to look at, and you responded to that message with more positioning and semantics about your arguments.

Actually I will address this point.

Lead, I am sorry but you have been making the case in this thread consistently for 'no true misogynist' and implying that his mental health was the KEY issue here and nothing else really mattered.

First of all I was addressing where exactly I stood. That being, it was never about whether he was a misogynist or not, it was that I believe personally that his misogyny wasn't something he was originally 'taught' by society it was something he developed from his inability to form relationships and the negative consequences of that. I was not saying he wasn't a "true misogynist" whatever that means. Secondly, as I have stated many times already there is clear evidence that his mental health played a big part in this. I continually presented evidence this was the case. One being he planned to kill his stepmother and brother simply for the fact he had a better life than him

He was misogynistic, but he had an underlying psychological problem where he was prone to doing this.

As far as the link she posted, I don't really have much to comment on it. My interest as I stated is with this case.
 

pants

Member
I definitely think the mental issues is the egg and one of the chickens is misogyny here. It's not helpful to pick on one specific part of his various issues though, this situation happened because of all his circumstances, and should be seen holistically and as intertwined issues.
 

leadbelly

Banned
I definitely think the mental issues is the egg and one of the chickens is misogyny here. It's not helpful to pick on one specific part of his various issues though, this situation happened because of all his circumstances, and should be seen holistically and as intertwined issues.

I agree. A mixture of things certainly contributed to it. My argument in terms of misogyny was always the circumstances he developed those views, not that he wasn't one to begin with, or that he didn't find like minded individuals that helped confirm those views in his mind. I suppose if you hate women, you're going to be interested in people that hate women.

I think the point of contention in my posts is that I don't frame it a certain way, therefore I don't believe he is a 'true misogynist'. Like the way i frame it really matters..
 

pants

Member
You come off as hand waving the misogyny part away as just another symptom of his mental issues though (Not saying you are, just letting you know what I'm perceiving). Remember he could have also parlayed his mental issues into having an extreme hate for dolphins or something, but he didnt, he hates women and minorities. It's important to try and chart his journey from his warped world view down the line to misogyny as well (outside stimuli would for sure help him along here). I guess what im saying in short is it's interesting to observe why be became a mysoginist instead of a dolphinist.
 

leadbelly

Banned
You come off as hand waving the misogyny part away as just another symptom of his mental issues though (Not saying you are, just letting you know what I'm perceiving). Remember he could have also parlayed his mental issues into having an extreme hate for dolphins or something, but he didnt, he hates women and minorities. It's important to try and chart his journey from his warped world view down the line to misogyny as well (outside stimuli would for sure help him along here). I guess what im saying in short is it's interesting to observe why be became a mysoginist instead of a dolphinist.

That's maybe true yeah, but at the same time I do keep stating why I think it is important in this particular case. It is my view based on his manifesto and other things, that he would have found some other reason to kill if it weren't for misogyny.

I just think his inability to form relationships and the frustration that inevitably causes, along with his perceived view that women were repulsed by him, was the reason he 'hated women'. It is the way I am framing it. it doesn't become a political talking point, which is the point of contention.

It's basically the same view as this Time article.
http://time.com/114354/elliot-rodger-ucsb-misogyny/

People may not agree with that. but they don't have to. This is just my opinion. lol
 
No. There is nothing wrong in talking about his mental problems.

There is when placed in the context that you put it in.

Don't be mad, bro, when people start to call you on your bullshit.

The thing you are quoting is actually true in terms of the symptoms of Asperger's and autism. They can have trouble with social interaction and become extremely obsessive about one subject. It doesn't mean every person suffering from Asperger's makes a killer, that was not what I was saying, It is just an aspect of his personality that contributed to his inability to form relationships.

Let's get this out of the way first: I have Asperger's. Now, does this make me an expert on AS? No. But you know what it does make me? More knowledged than you on the subject, which seems to be simply 'people with autism do this'.

People with Asperger's - and people with autism - have trouble socializing, yes. We have trouble maintaining eye contact, lying, telling the truth, gauging emotions in others.

But you know what isn't a trait of autism? A detachment from the outside world. We know right from wrong, we're aware. Autism is not a dream state, it is not some form of brain damage. Autistics are socially awkward, but we're not socially detached.

What you're describing is bipolar and/or schizophrenia, and to say those attributes are autism is super ignorant.

Projecting any trait of one disability on to a completely different disability - especially if it is negative - is super frigging ignorant.


Is it ignoring or is it 'my opinion'? :p

That's great. Now you need to listen to other peoples opinions and adapt. That's how communication works.
 

leadbelly

Banned
Let's get this out of the way first: I have Asperger's. Now, does this make me an expert on AS? No. But you know what it does make me? More knowledged than you on the subject, which seems to be simply 'people with autism do this'.

People with Asperger's - and people with autism - have trouble socializing, yes. We have trouble maintaining eye contact, lying, telling the truth, gauging emotions in others.

But you know what isn't a trait of autism? A detachment from the outside world. We know right from wrong, we're aware. Autism is not a dream state, it is not some form of brain damage. Autistics are socially awkward, but we're not socially detached.


The context I put it in. was in the sense that he had trouble with social interaction. The context I wasn't putting it in was Asperger's makes someone a mass murderer. It is an aspect of his personality which was probably a part of the reason he was unable to form relationships with women.
 

Bleepey

Member
Actually I will address this point.



First of all I was addressing where exactly I stood. That being, it was never about whether he was a misogynist or not, it was that I believe personally that his misogyny wasn't something he was originally 'taught' by society it was something he developed from his inability to form relationships and the negative consequences of that. I was not saying he wasn't a "true misogynist" whatever that means. Secondly, as I have stated many times already there is clear evidence that his mental health played a big part in this. I continually presented evidence this was the case. One being he planned to kill his stepmother and brother simply for the fact he had a better life than him

He was misogynistic, but he had an underlying psychological problem where he was prone to doing this.

As far as the link she posted, I don't really have much to comment on it. My interest as I stated is with this case.

Don't forget the fact he killed more men than women. I think Fiction is trying to argue that his misogyny is the cause of his rampage whilst you are trying to argue that his misogyny is a symptom of his mental illness and not the main cause. Considering his hatred of just about everyone, the fact he expected the bare minimum to get results, whether its buying a lottery ticket to get rich, never approaching women and expecting them to trip over themselves to talk to him and the fact he consistently had problems maintaining friendships with anyone and everyone I think it's safe to guess which I think was the main reason for what happened.
 

Coreda

Member
Also holy shit Apatow's lashing back doesn't recommend him very highly. Basically pulling a Charles Barkley "I'm not a role model" defense with a side of not reading the article in question. Her point is clearly "this is a broad Hollywood culture problem, here see these statistics" and then Apatow takes it as an indictment of him individually. #notallapatows?

“@Sethrogen: .@AnnHornaday I find your article horribly insulting and misinformed.”She uses tragedy to promote herself with idiotic thoughts

Sure, there is a valid point in the article that more women could be involved in film-making and script writing, but Apatow is perfectly fine to call her out for a piece speculatively trying to draw lines to fictional films, including his own, as the diet of a recent mass murderer - that goes so far as to claim that 'no one should be surprised' at the outcome such films inspired. Pls.
 
The context I put it in. was in the sense that he had trouble with social interaction. The context I wasn't putting it in was Asperger's makes someone a mass murderer. It is an aspect of his personality which was probably a part of the reason he was unable to form relationships with women.

Good job only quoting the parts that make you sound right.
 

Chuckie

Member
I just finished reading his manifesto.

Well, I basically identify with and agree with all of his views and life experiences. I'm in tears as I write this. I don't feel like eating, I just don't feel like doing anything.

I don't know what to do.

I think you need to seek help. As soon as possible because his outlook on life and relationships were very disturbing and unhealthy.
 

Bleepey

Member
I just finished reading his manifesto.

Well, I basically identify with and agree with all of his views and life experiences. I'm in tears as I write this. I don't feel like eating, I just don't feel like doing anything.

I don't know what to do.


Dude call someone. There's no shame in asking for help.
 

wildfire

Banned
I don't think I have though.

Is it ignoring or is it 'my opinion'? :p

Her view seems to be, like others here and in the media have stated, toxic and rampant misogyny in society is the cause, or at least a big part of it, for the mass murder. It is misogyny played out to its logical end. I simply gave my view. It is my opinion.

What am I missing. Care to explain it to me? Seriously.


The part you are missing is caused by the mistake of thinking they are saying only society.

For misogyny to percolate someone has to originally think it up and promote it.


Some, most or all of them are saying he is the root cause for being misogynistic. He didn't necessarily need societies' influence.
 

Ikael

Member
I physically can't speak to anyone in person. I just can't do it.

Then email someone that can help you or chat with him / her. Try to seek psychological assitance, pronto. Noone will be laughing at you nor ridiculing you, mental healthcare professionals and everyone with half a brain know how serious these things can be.
 

bigmf

Member
Sure, there is a valid point in the article that more women could be involved in film-making and script writing, but Apatow is perfectly fine to call her out for a piece speculatively trying to draw lines to fictional films, including his own, as the diet of a recent mass murderer - that goes so far as to claim that 'no one should be surprised' at the outcome such films inspired. Pls.

Exactly, the celluloid ceiling issue is a serious issue and worthy of discussion. The writer tainted the whole issue with the other stuff. If a movie about some goof ending up in a romantic relationship with an attractive woman ever triggered a mass-murderer, I think we should all be very surprised.
 

DarkKyo

Member
I physically can't speak to anyone in person. I just can't do it.

Innocent people don't deserve your hatred just because you can't physically talk to them. It's important to get help if you are feeling this twisted. At the very least you've told people in this thread and that's a good first step.
 

OG Kush

Member
I just finished reading his manifesto.

Well, I basically identify with and agree with all of his views and life experiences. I'm in tears as I write this. I don't feel like eating, I just don't feel like doing anything.

I don't know what to do.
You agree with his views?! identifying and having similar experiences is something else, but agreeing with his views... well atleast youve admitted it. get help
 

Kart94

Banned
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PezlFNTGWv4 personally i think this should be shown in every news coverage for mass shootings.

I think this is a major problem of why there is so many shootings nowadays, that and lack o f oppertunities for mentally unstable people to get help. All these shootings are awful and something has to be done about them.

Edit: Never mind, it seems like someone already posted it on the thread a long while ago.
 

leadbelly

Banned
The part you are missing is caused by the mistake of thinking they are saying only society.

For misogyny to percolate someone has to originally think it up and promote it.


Some, most or all of them are saying he is the root cause for being misogynistic. He didn't necessarily need societies' influence.

I could very well be me missing the intricacies of the argument. The way I have viewed some comments here, and in the press, is, cultural misogyny is the reason he developed these toxic views, and that mass murder was the logical end to this.

The term 'misogyny' in its basic form means simply 'hatred of women'. It then expands into more broader meanings, especially in a political sense. The angle I was coming at it is simply to do with what is in plain view. He was absolutely obsessed with losing his virginity and forming a relationship. He was unable to do this which I guess caused him a lot of frustration. So much so he made a video asking women why they are not interested in him. Now, it is my view that he developed his 'hatred of women' from this. I don't see why there needs to be an external influence for it to progress into hatred, especially considering how easy it was for him to reach that conclusion.

I imagine that considering he was absolutely obsessed with this,he spent a lot of time researching how to attract women, and many other things about why women would reject him. He may have found ideas that had an influence on his view. However, what effect any outside influence may have had is unclear.

It is clear from his manifesto and videos that he reacted extremely to anyone he felt was better than him, more successful than him, having more fun than him,etc. He was simply unable to cope. This makes it hard really to gauge what effect misogyny in terms of external influence had on his ultimate conclusion that all women must die. It seems he had the potential to do it anyway for the examples I mentioned.
 

wildfire

Banned
I just finished reading his manifesto.

Well, I basically identify with and agree with all of his views and life experiences. I'm in tears as I write this. I don't feel like eating, I just don't feel like doing anything.

I don't know what to do.
Amazing I missed this on the first pass.

As others have said still professional help.


If you are feeling ashamed about getting such help, don't. We aren't born knowing everything and it is a strength to learn from those who can obviously help you grow as a human being.


While you are considering who to go to for help also think about the following.

You subscribe to the idea that women or some woman is supposed to be yours. How about you flip that idea on yourself. Ate you supposed to belong to some woman?

You feel like you can't approach women in general. Do you also have trouble talking to guys?
If yes then what makes you so uncomfortable in general because feeling with women are the last of your problems. If no them realize that women are human beings that can be approached for conversation just like any guy. The only difference is that you should be upfront with them about your interest in forming a relationship and just make basic inquiries about who they are.

Lastly if you are lacking confidence in yourself ask what is lacking on your life. I suspect your answers don't only involve not having people in your life. Do make an assessment of what you can do to reach am idealized version of yourself that doesn't require people being in your social circle. While you work on those things you will be able to attract people naturally because they'll want help our find what you do interesting.
 
Don't forget the fact he killed more men than women.

It's his ideologies that people are mentioning misogyny for not his body count. The women he hated, he hated because they were women and they denied him sex. The men he hated, he hated because while he was "denied" they were provided with sex from was also set to enter a sorority at USB but was denied. He killed the 3 men in his apartment simply to provide him with his privacy. He thought he was superior to every human yes, but he hated and wanted to kill women. A woman-free horrorscape was a running theme toward the end of his manifesto. That's what Fiction is getting at. His misogyny is as much a factor in this as his mentality. He was already getting (or attempting to get treatment for one) while the other festered.

I could very well be me missing the intricacies of the argument. The way I have viewed some comments here, and in the press, is, cultural misogyny is the reason he developed these toxic views, and that mass murder was the logical end to this.

The term 'misogyny' in its basic form means simply 'hatred of women'. It then expands into more broader meanings, especially in a political sense. The angle I was coming at it is simply to do with what is in plain view. He was absolutely obsessed with losing his virginity and forming a relationship. He was unable to do this which I guess caused him a lot of frustration. So much so he made a video asking women why they are not interested in him. Now, it is my view that he developed his 'hatred of women' from this. I don't see why there needs to be an external influence for it to progress into hatred, especially considering how easy it was for him to reach that conclusion.

I imagine that considering he was absolutely obsessed with this,he spent a lot of time researching how to attract women, and many other things about why women would reject him. He may have found ideas that had an influenced on his view. However, what effect any outside influence may have had is unclear.

It is clear from his manifesto and videos that he reacted extremely to anyone he felt was better than him, more successful than him, having more fun than him,etc. He was simple unable to cope. This makes it hard really to gauge what effect misogyny in terms of external influence had on his ultimate conclusion that all women must die. It seems he had the potential to do it anyway for the examples I mentioned.

Imagine if you will a landscape where the killer went through life, school and college where people put less value into sex than they do now. Where men didn't boast about conquering women as though it were a solo effort. Where men talking about their feelings wasn't looked down upon by peers and where entire internet cultures weren't built around echoing sentiments that women are the root of social inadequacy, and sexual immaturity. Is it hard to say how much externalities had on making him form is opinion? Yes. But also to say it had an absolute zero effect is bunk. Every teasing from his peers about being a virgin, every film about loosing your virginity before a certain point, every ad on TV and every post on PUAhate put something into the guy. It gave him validation. Instead of denying the theories he formed on his own, it proved them. It proved that there was some truth in what his mind was forming instead of making him question his outlook. It mattered. We will never know how much now but it did matter. And no one is looking at it as though, if the world wasn't a certain way, we'd have a perfect well adjusted boy on our hands. They are simply looking at the boy we ended up with.
 

Volimar

Member
I am really, really tired of saying the same things over and over and over again and you missing my point, so I'm bowing out.

Which might be the point of arguing in that manner but I'm exhausted and this thread is depressing.

I for one really appreciate you and Devo fighting the good fight. I don't know how many times I've checked this thread and wanted to participate, but not know precisely how to articulate what I wanted to say, only to see you say it better than i could have. So thanks!

I physically can't speak to anyone in person. I just can't do it.

I've dealt with crippling anxiety, especially social anxiety all my life. It's gotten worse as I've gotten older. Please trust me when I say you will feel so much better if you can force yourself to go to a professional. My first times I actually went with my mom(I'm an adult), but now I go alone. It really really really does get better. You recognize that you have a problem, now it's time to act on it in a positive way.
 

leadbelly

Banned
I imagine if you will a landscape where the killer went through life, school and college where people put less value into sex than they do now. Where men didn't boast about conquering women as though it were a solo effort. Where men talking about their feelings wasn't looked down upon by peers and where entire internet cultures weren't built around echoing sentiments that women are the root of social inadequacy, and sexual immaturity. Is it hard to say how much externalities had on making him form is opinion? Yes. But also to say it had an absolute zero effect is bunk. Every teasing from his peers about being a virgin, every film about loosing your virginity before a certain point, every ad on TV and every post on PUAhate put something into the guy. It gave him validation. Instead of denying the theories he formed on his own, it proved them. It proved that there was some truth in what his mind was forming instead of making him question his outlook. It mattered. We will never know how much now but it did matter.

It's interesting, but some of the examples you mentioned, I have actually raised and agreed with to a certain degree.

I don't think I did entirely. This is true of course, and me using 'virginity' as an example, I am kind of agreeing to a degree that there are certain views and expectations within society geared towards having sex like it is a prize to be won, but I can't help but see that we're hard-wired to compete for sex anyway. Society just puts greater pressure on people. You're somehow a 'loser' if you haven't had sex yet, etc.

The value people put on having sex, and losing your virginity, along with other things, does have an effect. It puts unneeded pressure on people to conform to that norm. A lot of value is placed on having sex which could have helped to place that emphasis in the mind of Rodger. However, in terms of 'normal' people, the effect all this has it quite complex. Of course yeah, it brings sex way into the forefront and makes it a prize to be won, but at the same time, there are a lot of men that don't develop an extreme misogynistic view of women as a result, There are some men that do for whatever reasons.

At the same time, we are kind of hard-wired to 'compete' for sex. A big part of our life centres around it. As someone else I remember mentioned. There is a 'game' and there are winners and losers, and with that comes jealousy, sadness, a feeling being inadequate, etc, etc. There are natural negative consequences of rejection.

That's not to say those things you argued aren't true, they are, and just compounds the problem, I just take into account that even without these pressures put on us, we will still compete for sex, and there will be negative consequences.

These issues could have had an influence on him. At the same time I find impossible to escape the fact that he reacted extremely to everything anyway,and had the potential to do this for a number of reasons. He had underlying psychological issues that made this course of action more likely.

It depends really what the talking point is. I do agree though that a mixture of these things could have influenced his obsession.
 

Guileless

Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
At the same time, we are kind of hard-wired to 'compete' for sex.

You can drop the 'kind of.' Natural selection designed male adaptions to solve male problems.

Steven Pinker said:
Men have a much stronger taste for no-strings sex with multiple or anonymous partners, as we see in the almost all-male consumer base for prostitution and visual pornography...

Throughout the animal kingdom, when the female has to invest more calories and risk in each offspring (in the case of mammals, through pregnancy and nursing),she also invests more in nurturing the offspring after birth, since it is more costly for a female to replace a child than for a male to replace one. The difference in investment is accompanied by a greater competition among males over opportunities to mate, since mating with many partners is more likely to multiply the number of offspring of a male than the number of offspring of a female. When the average male is larger than the average female (as is true of men and women), it bespeaks an evolutionary history of greater violent competition by males over mating opportunities. Other physical traits of men, such as later puberty, greater adult strength, and shorter lives, also indicate a history of selection for high-stakes competition.

Many of the sex differences are found widely in other primates, indeed, throughout the mammalian class. The males tend to compete more aggressively and to be more polygamous; the females tend to invest more in parenting.
Via The Blank Slate by Stephen Pinker

Of course, the morality of violent completion among males for mates is a separate issue than the evolutionary logic of it.
 

ElFly

Member
I do not think that his mental problems can be simply ignored to blame misogyny.

However, his conditions made him obsess with an ideology that dehumanizes other people, and once you think of other people as 'less than human' or 'less deserving' it is easy to go the next step and actually try to kill people, as that violence against women tumblr shows.

Would this be different if he had obsessed with something different? Maybe? It depends on the obsession; it's not hard to imagine he would still have ended killing people had he obsessed with, say, anti semitism instead.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
I do not think that his mental problems can be simply ignored to blame misogyny.

However, his conditions made him obsess with an ideology that dehumanizes other people, and once you think of other people as 'less than human' or 'less deserving' it is easy to go the next step and actually try to kill people, as that violence against women tumblr shows.

Would this be different if he had obsessed with something different? Maybe? It depends on the obsession; it's not hard to imagine he would still have ended killing people had he obsessed with, say, anti semitism instead.

If he was obsessed with anti-semitism and he found neo-Nazi movements that reinforced his worldview we would also point to them as influences in his development.
 

ElFly

Member
If he was obsessed with anti-semitism and he found neo-Nazi movements that reinforced his worldview we would also point to them as influences in his development.

And that would be right too.

What I am trying to say is that there are two completely right reactions; one is that maybe background checks for getting guns should be stricter for people with mental conditions, the other is that the rampant misogyny in some groups on the internet and IRL should also be put on check.

There is no reason to ignore one in favor of the other.
 

Bleepey

Member
The mental gymnastics required to use the demographics of his final kill tally to outweigh the hundreds of pages of writings he left behind and say 'it wasn't the misogyny' is remarkable.

Mental gymnastics? I never said he wasn't a misogynist. He was but he also also seemed to have real hatred of black people, Asian people and just about everyone under the sun. What I am saying is that misogyny is a potential confounder for his actions and not necessarily the main cause. It could be a symptom of his mental illness and not the sole cause.
 
Mental gymnastics? I never said he wasn't a misogynist. He was but he also also seemed to have real hatred of black people, Asian people and just about everyone under the sun. What I am saying is that misogyny is a potential confounder for his actions and not necessarily the main cause. It could be a symptom of his mental illness and not the sole cause.

You brought up the 'he killed more men than women' like it was relevant to his published worldview. This removes his motives from the context. If you go by the manifesto he killed men either because they impeded his war against women or because they were part of his problem with women, not simply because they were men.
 

Bleepey

Member
You brought up the 'he killed more men than women' like it was relevant to his published worldview. This removes his motives from the context. If you go by the manifesto he killed men either because they impeded his war against women or because they were part of his problem with women, not simply because they were men.

Where in the manifesto/videos did he mention his reasons for killing the people he killed.
 

APF

Member
What I am saying is that misogyny is a potential confounder for his actions and not necessarily the main cause. It could be a symptom of his mental illness and not the sole cause.
More likely it's a set of ideas that were already in his head, exaggerated by his illness, and fueled by embracing hate-filled literature, blogging, and messageboards as his main form of emotional support. With misogyny as the blatant and obvious focus for his anti-social behavior it is absurd, if not outright suspect, to attempt to assert these ideas spontaneously generated out of the ether despite his protestations.
 

leadbelly

Banned
You brought up the 'he killed more men than women' like it was relevant to his published worldview. This removes his motives from the context. If you go by the manifesto he killed men either because they impeded his war against women or because they were part of his problem with women, not simply because they were men.

His primary motivation for the killing was his hatred of women. This is right. However, he did have a secondary one. His secondary motive was to kill all people simply for the crime of having a better life than him. And in terms of killing his brother for instance, he stated that he wanted to kill him because he felt jealous of his apparent success. I think he was in a TV commercial. He was worried he would grow up to be a successful actor.

And interestingly, even when you talk about the people he hated that were connected to his primary motive, is it 'hatred of women' that is the motivator there, or is it his jealousy of men getting something that he can't?

His main motive though of course was his hatred of women.
 
And interestingly, even when you talk about the people he hated that were connected to his primary motive, is it 'hatred of women' that is the motivator there, or is it his jealousy of men getting something that he can't?

'getting something that he can't' is an interesting way of abstracting 'getting women.'
 

Bleepey

Member
More likely it's a set of ideas that were already in his head, exaggerated by his illness, and fueled by embracing hate-filled literature, blogging, and messageboards as his main form of emotional support. With misogyny as the blatant and obvious focus for his anti-social behavior it is absurd, if not outright suspect, to attempt to assert these ideas spontaneously generated out of the ether despite his protestations.

If you listened to a lot of the posters in this thread you'd think misogyny was the only cause of his actions. I think it's a bit simple to simple to say and I think people often want to assign all blame as to whatever they find convenient. Whether it's people automatically blaming the parents until it was found out they frog marched him into therapy and seemed active in his upbringing, others automatically blamed his legally-purchased guns, others societal misogyny and MRAs/PUA etc, others virgin shaming, others the poor state of mental health in the USA and I am waiting to hear more about what violent video games he played. I think it's a bit too simple to say one thing was the cause. What had the most effect on what made him him? I don't know, however I have my own ideas on it.
 
Where in the manifesto/videos did he mention his reasons for killing the people he killed.

It's all in the last 10 pages.

Little Brother, Stepmother
Page 127:
..it has been confirmed to me that my little brother will become one of them. He will become a popular kid who gets all the girls. Girls will love him. He will become one of my enemies.
That was the day that I decided I would have to kill him...I will not allow the boy to surpass me at everything.
In order to kill Jazz, I would have to kill Soumaya too, but that will be easy.

Housemates

Page 131:
I would have to kill my housemates to get them out of the way.
Page 132:
The first people I would have to kill are my two housemates, to secure the entire apartment for myself...

Random strangers
Page 131
I will torture some of the good looking people before I kill them, assuming that the good looking ones had the best sex lives...I have lived a life of pain and suffering, and it was time to bring that pain to the people who actually deserve it.

Sorority sisters
Page 132
I will punish all females for the crime of depriving me of sex...I found out that the sorority with the most beautiful girls is Alpha Phi Sorority...the kind of girls I've always desired but was never able to have because they all look down on me.

More random strangers
Page 132
all of those groups of popular young people who I've always witnessed walking right in the middle of the raod as if they are better than everyone else.

The manifesto is otherwise peppered with references to 'popular young couples,' where he seethes at the woman for choosing another male over him, and resents the male for being inferior or otherwise undeserving of the women they are with. Outside of his deep racism most of his resentment of men up to and including his father is sharply connected to how he perceives women. He sees his own father as weak because he thinks his stepmother is controlling him. He wants to kill his little brother because of the attention he gets from his stepmom and because he's convinced the kid growing up will see more success than he ever did. He wants to kill popular boys because they get more sex from girls than he ever will.

This is all the writings of a delusional narcissist, for certain. It's hard to take his word 100% but the underpinnings of how he justifies his own killing aren't deflected by saying something as simple as 'he killed more men than women, therefore it wasn't the misogyny so much.'
 

BunnyBear

Member
His primary motivation for the killing was his hatred of women. This is right. However, he did have a secondary one. His secondary motive was to kill all people simply for the crime of having a better life than him. And in terms of killing his brother for instance, he stated that he wanted to kill him because he felt jealous of his apparent success. I think he was in a TV commercial. He was worried he would grow up to be a successful actor.

And interestingly, even when you talk about the people he hated that were connected to his primary motive, is it 'hatred of women' that is the motivator there, or is it his jealousy of men getting something that he can't?

His main motive though of course was his hatred of women.

Was it though? Having now read the entire thing, I'm even less convinced it was just straight-up he hated women. I think he hated anyone who he felt wronged him, either indirectly or directly. He goes complete nuts at the end with the talk about concentration camps and all that, but I still think his primary motivator for the killings was revenge for anyone he felt made him feel inferior. His brother, women he couldn't attain, his housemates, his stepmother, etc. Saying it was primarily a hatred of women is too simplistic for me, at this point.

The guy hated anyone who was able to feel pleasure and 'achieve' things he couldn't. He hated humanity, essentially.
 

APF

Member
So if a racist hates liberal whites for electing President Obama, they're no longer racist but hate humanity? I don't follow this line of logic.
 

BunnyBear

Member
So if a racist hates liberal whites for electing President Obama, they're no longer racist but hate humanity? I don't follow this line of logic.

That would depend if his hatred was based solely on his racism.

Applying this line of thinking to the Rodgers case, I believe it was not, or at the very least, was far more complicated than what some are saying
 

Infinite

Member
That would depend if his hatred was based solely on his racism.

Applying this line of thinking to the Rodgers case, I believe it was not, or at the very least, was far more complicated than what some are saying

We'll you're wrong. Misogyny isn't just about hatred of women. Elliot saw women as objects or things he was entitled to, not as people. He had a narrow view of what a woman was. He only cared for white, blonde, and blue eyed woman. Nothing else existed. He didn't want a relationship of love, companionship and support with a woman he simply wanted a trophy. Women were no different from the BMW he drove and the $300 shades he wore. This is misogyny.
 
Its not "hand waving away misogyny" to state that Rodger's fundamental problem was being utterly fucking insane. Yes he was obviously a misogynist. Its also true that he hated everyone, including himself. He was delusional, an extreme narcissist, racist, prone to acts of violence and sadly, ultimately homicidal.

The guy was unhinged, and misogyny was a primary expression of his broken mental state. Misogyny was fuel to his fire, so to speak. He might have found plenty of misogynistic influences in society to feed and validate his twisted mindstate. But it seems obvious to me that his hatred of women was a focus of an irrational sense of hate that was fundamentally part of his personality.
 
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