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[The Lamonster]

The Onion's on it:

‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens
http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this,36131

I love this.

 

[Maidenpool?]

This is an interesting way to blame the parents who put him in therapy and even called the fucking cops on their own son right before this happened.

The blame ultimately resides with the shooter himself - he hatched the plan, and decided to act like a maniac. He is %100 responsible and always will be.

His parents did a lot to help him it sounds like, insofar as his dad asked a friend of his who was successful with women to give his son advice - and his parents even alerted the police when they saw the video. (Which other parents probably wouldn't have done in that situation)

However - if there is a "in the future this could help prevent this from happening" in this situation - it's the parents looking at the credit card statements of a son that spent all his free time by himself, (in his own words he had literally zero friends) cruising around socal in his black coupe, speaking to himself about how females are going to suffer for his pain.

I know this seems like a bit of an ask, but the lesson here is for the parents. The parents of teens/adults who spend all their time alone, and more importantly... have made consistent remarks about how someone else is to blame and will suffer for their pain. If you are giving them an allowance, and they are old enough to purchase a firearm - just check how they are spending their allowance. It doesn't mean you check every day. It doesn't mean you think they are a murderer, or will ever act out any evil fantasies ... it's just simple vigilance - and hopefully you can stop checking whenever your son/daughters mental problems are cured.

 

[besada]

So what's the first step? Honest question. We can all agree that we need better mental illness treatment, and all the things you said are true, but there has to be baby steps we can take.

Beats the shit out of me?

Seriously, though, the first step is for people who are mentally ill to come out of the shadows, even though it costs them. Which is tremendously unfair to them, but that's how it usually works. Until more people understand that they are surrounded by the mentally ill, and that it's real illness, not people being sad, the stigma is never going to go away.

It's why I speak openly about my mental illness, what I've gone through, and where I am today.

Until we get there, making sure people who want help can get help should be a priority. The world is full of people drowning in their illness, and many of them would grab any rope they could find, but ropes are few and far between in this country. The ACA was a step in the right direction, as it mandates mental health coverage in every policy.

We need more outpatient beds, so people can get treatment without having to stop working, since no one can stop working, because they need their insurance to pay for the hospital. We need better support for folks who can't work because of their illness. I know that people hate disability, and the idea of paying physically able people not to work, but there are some mental illness issues that you don't want at your workplace anyway.

We need better prices on mental illness medication, so the poor can afford to take the meds that might help them.

And we need more compassion. For many of us, the mental illness is never going to go away. We're going to be taking our mood stabilizers and our anti-psychotics for the rest of our lives. It would be helpful if people understood this, if people didn't treat us like broken things, simply because our brains work differently. It is often unpleasant to be mentally ill, and poorly informed judgement from the society around us does not help.

 

[The Henery]

I don't think anyone is "Conflating empathy/understanding with sympathy."

I think people are rightfully disturbed at the lengths people are going to in this specific incident to understand this dude in a way that isn't common in most cases.

To be fair, a crime like this coupled with the direct televisual and textual media from its perpetrator is unprecedented. It is redolent of an Osama Bin Laden address to the nation but with masturbatory teenage angst substituted for Islamic fundamentalism. There is a lot more scope for people to try to understand his journey to homicidal maniac when the killer himself penned a not-inarticulate 140 page document on that despicable path.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

The blame ultimately resides with the shooter himself - he hatched the plan, and decided to act like a maniac. He is %100 responsible and always will be.

His parents did a lot to help him it sounds like, insofar as his dad asked a friend of his who was successful with women to give his son advice - and his parents even alerted the police when they saw the video. (Which other parents probably wouldn't have done in that situation)

However - if there is a "in the future this could help prevent this from happening" in this situation - it's the parents looking at the credit card statements of a son that spent all his free time by himself, (in his own words he had literally zero friends) cruising around socal in his black coupe, speaking to himself about how females are going to suffer for his pain.

I know this seems like a bit of an ask, but the lesson here is for the parents. The parents of teens/adults who spend all their time alone, and more importantly... have made consistent remarks about how someone else is to blame and will suffer for their pain. If you are giving them an allowance, and they are old enough to purchase a firearm - just check how they are spending their allowance. It doesn't mean you check every day. It doesn't mean you think they are a murderer, or will ever act out any evil fantasies ... it's just simple vigilance - and hopefully you can stop checking whenever your son/daughters mental problems are cured.

They put him in therapy and called the cops. They called the cops on their son who had done nothing yet. This is already far more than most parents would ever do. You're really reaching.

 

[Kano on the Phone]

I always liked the idea that instead of always throwing our "awareness" efforts into Pink Ribbon breast cancer, maybe put some more into mental illness. Get it in the forefront. I think that is a green ribbon or something. Get the NFL on that.


Also apparently May is mental health awareness month. I did not know that.

I agree completely.

Beats the shit out of me?

Seriously, though, the first step is for people who are mentally ill to come out of the shadows, even though it costs them. Which is tremendously unfair to them, but that's how it usually works. Until more people understand that they are surrounded by the mentally ill, and that it's real illness, not people being sad, the stigma is never going to go away.

It's why I speak openly about my mental illness, what I've gone through, and where I am today.

Until we get there, making sure people who want help can get help should be a priority. The world is full of people drowning in their illness, and many of them would grab any rope they could find, but ropes are few and far between in this country. The ACA was a step in the right direction, as it mandates mental health coverage in every policy.

We need more outpatient beds, so people can get treatment without having to stop working, since no one can stop working, because they need their insurance to pay for the hospital. We need better support for folks who can't work because of their illness. I know that people hate disability, and the idea of paying physically able people not to work, but there are some mental illness issues that you don't want at your workplace anyway.

We need better prices on mental illness medication, so the poor can afford to take the meds that might help them.

And we need more compassion. For many of us, the mental illness is never going to go away. We're going to be taking our mood stabilizers and our anti-psychotics for the rest of our lives. It would be helpful if people understood this, if people didn't treat us like broken things, simply because our brains work differently. It is often unpleasant to be mentally ill, and poorly informed judgement from the society around us does not help.

So a combination of "coming out of the closet" so to speak and the government stepping in to make being mentally ill something besides a sentence for a life of poverty. I can dig that.

Awareness is a good first step, I just wish it was a universal thing. I see page after page of people trying to understand why this guy did what he did, but then when there's a topic where a clearly mentally ill woman kills her child or something there's a brief 2 pages of people wanting to see her drawn and quartered and nothing else.

 

[Deified Data]

I don't think anyone is "Conflating empathy/understanding with sympathy."

I think people are rightfully disturbed at the lengths people are going to in this specific incident to understand this dude in a way that isn't common in most cases. The projection and "well, it is hard to be a lonely non-sex having male" is so selfish and inappropriate, especially when this killer was so clearly rotten down to his core.

People are fascinated by evil, and we haven't had as clear a picture of a mind so singularly devoted to hate in a very long time. Rodger made quite sure that he would be remembered and discussed, though his delusion prevented him from ever guessing how that discussion would unfold.

I agree that humanity's impulse to understand and in some extreme cases sympathize with evil isn't always constructive, but it's not going anywhere any time soon. I share that impulse, myself.

 

[Catawampus]

The blame ultimately resides with the shooter himself - he hatched the plan, and decided to act like a maniac. He is %100 responsible and always will be.

His parents did a lot to help him it sounds like, insofar as his dad asked a friend of his who was successful with women to give his son advice - and his parents even alerted the police when they saw the video. (Which other parents probably wouldn't have done in that situation)

However - if there is a "in the future this could help prevent this from happening" in this situation - it's the parents looking at the credit card statements of a son that spent all his free time by himself, (in his own words he had literally zero friends) cruising around socal in his black coupe, speaking to himself about how females are going to suffer for his pain.

I know this seems like a bit of an ask, but the lesson here is for the parents. The parents of teens/adults who spend all their time alone, and more importantly... have made consistent remarks about how someone else is to blame and will suffer for their pain. If you are giving them an allowance, and they are old enough to purchase a firearm - just check how they are spending their allowance. It doesn't mean you check every day. It doesn't mean you think they are a murderer, or will ever act out any evil fantasies ... it's just simple vigilance - and hopefully you can stop checking whenever your son/daughters mental problems are cured.

He said in his autobiography that he had saved over $5,000 which he was using to fund his Day of Retribution as well as his lottery aspirations.

His mother was paying for his apartment and his father his tuition. One of the two was also giving him $500/month allowance.

He saved the money from his allowance as well as gifts from family members for holidays, birthdays, etc. I doubt he used a credit card for the weapon purchases.

 

[Maidenpool?]

They put him in therapy and called the cops. They called the cops on their son who had done nothing yet. This is already far more than most parents would ever do. You're really reaching.

I'm not reaching ... I'm just suggesting that from now on, if a parent finds themselves in such a given situation with a son or daughter who is mimicking Roger's behaviour - just check how they are spending your money. To some parents, that isn't their preferred course of action (even though I have a hard time understanding why it's even an issue, every kid/young adult I know who has a credit card with his parent's money gets checked on the reg) but for the timid parents, who for some reason are against checking how their own money is spent, can console themselves in the fact that since the Isla Vista tragedy, we now know it's a generally good idea to do so.
Reason being? In Roger's own words, from his crazy manifesto - had the police who came to his door simply asked to search his apartment, (which they would have done had they known he owned multiple firearms) it would have been "over" for him.


Edit - I should ad - this is a micro strategy for the here and now. All the macro ideas which others have suggested with regards to mental health and such are still good ideas, but they won't be solved tomorrow. It takes a long time to get the big ideas up and rolling, my suggestion is for the interim, something that can be changed today.

 

[besada]

Awareness is a good first step, I just wish it was a universal thing. I see page after page of people trying to understand why this guy did what he did, but then when there's a topic where a clearly mentally ill woman kills her child or something there's a brief 2 pages of people wanting to see her drawn and quartered and nothing else.

Some people are never going to get it, unfortunately. If your brain works correctly, it's difficult to understand what having a brain that doesn't work correctly is like. I struggle to understand many decisions I made when I was unmedicated -- all of which seemed perfectly sensible to me at the time, including the one where I tried to throw myself off a building.

None of them make any sense to me any more, because my brain no longer works the same way it did. I take a drug designed to reduce electrical activity in the brain. When I'm on it, I'm relatively normal (although still prone to depression). When I'm not on it, I become convinced that driving is too dangerous, particularly at night, and particularly in big cities. I become convinced that all the people who love me secretly hate me. My mind moves faster and I think I'm smarter, but instead I produce a lot of gibberish that doesn't make sense to anyone but me -- and not even to me once I take my meds.

 

[The One Who Knocks]

Care to link a few of the posts that attempt to justify this killers misogyny? I've read a fair amount of this thread and don't recall seeing that. I'm being lazy, I know.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyone else feel that there should be sub-strata of misogynistic definitions? I've always felt it's an inadequate and rather broad term which coalesces discussion to a sometimes bland blanket.

I remember reading a biography of homosexual author William Burroughs which described a short story he had written in which 'boys' were segregated from females on a separate island. On this island they were free to mature without the influence of the female, which Burroughs regarded as "an evolutionary error" and "no longer required for reproduction". That, to me, amongst numerous other Burroughs quotes on women, is misogyny in its purest sense, devoid of frustrated sexual desires. It's very different from Rodgers' apparent intense desire for the female which mutates into seething, murderous resentment when it is not fulfilled. There really ought to be a distinction between the two.

I really cannot agree. Homophobia is not divided into different categories, nor is racism, ageism, or a variety of other forms of bigotry, and I really don't think misogyny needs to either. There can be a variety of reasons prejudices develop, but I think the best way is to acknowledge these potential reasons relevant to the situation in question, while still recognising that, ultimately, it is a form of prejudice. By categorising these topics, it can lead to the idea that some subsets of a specific type of discrimination could be worse than others, while bigotry is bad, regardless of the reasons, and elimination should be sought. I would like to clarify in that prejudiced actions of different magnitude certainly exist (and hate crimes, for example, have a more noticeably harmful effect than more casual forms, even if the casual forms develop a toxic environment which can lead to the large actions), and I won't argue this at all, but I don't think they need to be stratified as, regardless of the reason it has developed, they still result in the same vitrolic effect. EDIT: I am interested in how you would even go about creating different subsets though. How would you divide different types of misogyny? What would be the overall benefit to this? Why do you feel it's necessary? The only reason I ask these questions is because, as mentioned, I simply think that that would have a very negative effect in leading to an idea that some types of discrimination (not relating to the magnitude of the discrimination) is better than others, something I'm absolutely not in favour of.

 

[Brian Griffin]

So wow, this thread and everything surrounding this story has blown up in the past couple days. I really like the YesAllWomen hashtag and the articles I've read about this area great. I skimmed about half of his 140 page thing and even though a lot of these articles and tweets and posts are talking about how he was rejected and that rejection is dangerous for women and such, was he ever actually rejected?

Maybe I didn't read far enough in his life story but he never mentions even attempting to engage with any females and just seems to start hating them when he hits puberty. If this is true then this isn't a guy who was mad at being rejected, this was a guy who invented his own rejection and then boiled in his hatred over a situation he imposed on himself and was blind to his own creation.

 

[Shouta]

That's not a universal.

I didn't say it was, just that it was a lot of interactions. Go back one post. And yes, I know about the issue in the text you quoted, you should also link it properly. =P

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

So wow, this thread and everything surrounding this story has blown up in the past couple days. I really like the YesAllWomen hashtag and the articles I've read about this area great. I skimmed about half of his 140 page thing and even though a lot of these articles and tweets and posts are talking about how he was rejected and that rejection is dangerous for women and such, was he ever actually rejected?

Maybe I didn't read far enough in his life story but he never mentions even attempting to engage with any females and just seems to start hating them when he hits puberty. If this is true then this isn't a guy who was mad at being rejected, this was a guy who invented his own rejection and then boiled in his hatred over a situation he imposed on himself and was blind to his own creation.

Yeah, he just went out and acted passive and expected people to come to him because he had completed his RPG quest log in achieving what he thought would make women flock to him. He was never truly rejected in his adult life, as far as we know.

 

[Deified Data]

So wow, this thread and everything surrounding this story has blown up in the past couple days. I really like the YesAllWomen hashtag and the articles I've read about this area great. I skimmed about half of his 140 page thing and even though a lot of these articles and tweets and posts are talking about how he was rejected and that rejection is dangerous for women and such, was he ever actually rejected?

Maybe I didn't read far enough in his life story but he never mentions even attempting to engage with any females and just seems to start hating them when he hits puberty. If this is true then this isn't a guy who was mad at being rejected, this was a guy who invented his own rejection and then boiled in his hatred over a situation he imposed on himself and was blind to his own creation.

From what I've read it sounds like he'd try to "put himself out there" by hitting the town and expecting women to approach him out of sheer animal magnetism. When they didn't approach him (because he didn't approach them) he'd classify it as a rejection.

 

[Kano on the Phone]

Some people are never going to get it, unfortunately. If your brain works correctly, it's difficult to understand what having a brain that doesn't work correctly is like. I struggle to understand many decisions I made when I was unmedicated -- all of which seemed perfectly sensible to me at the time, including the one where I tried to throw myself off a building.

None of them make any sense to me any more, because my brain no longer works the same way it did. I take a drug designed to reduce electrical activity in the brain. When I'm on it, I'm relatively normal (although still prone to depression). When I'm not on it, I become convinced that driving is too dangerous, particularly at night, and particularly in big cities. I become convinced that all the people who love me secretly hate me. My mind moves faster and I think I'm smarter, but instead I produce a lot of gibberish that doesn't make sense to anyone but me -- and not even to me once I take my meds.

I hope more people read this. There's this weird stigma that mentally ill people (especially criminals) have even in 2014 where they're just "evil" rather than just understanding that we're not all always perfectly in control and making rational decisions. Even if you don't want to absolve or forgive someone who commits murder or something else while mentally ill, refusing to understand it is just making the ground more fertile for it to happen again.

 

[bigmf]

It turns out the problem isn't guns, knives, misogyny or mental illness.

Nope, it's all Seth Rogen's fault.

 

[gutter_trash]

just abolish the 2nd amendment,
scrap the gun show loophole,

debate on these things go in a million directions, just remove the ability to buy guns to almost everyone and that's that

 

[entremet]

So wow, this thread and everything surrounding this story has blown up in the past couple days. I really like the YesAllWomen hashtag and the articles I've read about this area great. I skimmed about half of his 140 page thing and even though a lot of these articles and tweets and posts are talking about how he was rejected and that rejection is dangerous for women and such, was he ever actually rejected?

Maybe I didn't read far enough in his life story but he never mentions even attempting to engage with any females and just seems to start hating them when he hits puberty. If this is true then this isn't a guy who was mad at being rejected, this was a guy who invented his own rejection and then boiled in his hatred over a situation he imposed on himself and was blind to his own creation.

There is nothing he wrote mentioning a specific, "No thanks" from any woman he approached in a romantic fashion. Nor did he mention any specific encounters about approaching women for dates.

 

[luxarific]

I didn't say it was, just that it was a lot of interactions. Go back one post. And yes, I know about the issue in the text you quoted, you should also link it properly. =P

Sorry was posting in a rush - it's Wikipedia. I didn't see your follow-up and the original comment sounded like you were describing a universal, and it's not of course.

 

[wedward]

It turns out the problem isn't guns, knives, misogyny or mental illness.

Nope, it's all Seth Rogen's fault.

That's not what that article was saying at all and it is irresponsible to insinuate that it was.

The author was trying to show how masculinity is portrayed in Hollywood and how that affects young men.

It's not a particularly good article but I don't think she is directly blaming Seth Rogen for this.

 

[Shouta]

Sorry was posting in a rush - it's Wikipedia. I didn't see your follow-up and the original comment sounded like you were describing a universal, and it's not of course.

Nah, it's the reverse, The one you quoted was my follow-up, lol.

Mumei's follow-up to that was pretty interesting. It's always fun to see how animal societies can and will change when given the chance. Makes it kind of sad that we can't solve these problems well with our supposed intelligence. =/

 

[Dr.Acula]

I'm not reaching ... I'm just suggesting that from now on, if a parent finds themselves in such a given situation with a son or daughter who is mimicking Roger's behaviour - just check how they are spending your money. To some parents, that isn't their preferred course of action (even though I have a hard time understanding why it's even an issue, every kid/young adult I know who has a credit card with his parent's money gets checked on the reg) but for the timid parents, who for some reason are against checking how their own money is spent, can console themselves in the fact that since the Isla Vista tragedy, we now know it's a generally good idea to do so.
Reason being? In Roger's own words, from his crazy manifesto - had the police who came to his door simply asked to search his apartment, (which they would have done had they known he owned multiple firearms) it would have been "over" for him.

That's easier than done. People manipulate company accounts in front of professional auditors all the time. If you're giving your kid an allowance for food and entertainment how do you track it? You see a 100 dollar ATM withdrawal and your kid says they went to a concert and got McDonald's, and got a shirt, and how do you know? They squirrel it away a bit at a time.

You can easily save up to buy guns, drugs, anything. Parents aren't professional accountants and you can't ask for receipts for everything. Even if you do, they return a shirt, get the cash and the receipt. What can you do? You can swipe a McDonald's receipt at the pile by the register, no one cares.

 

[bigmf]

That's not what that article was saying at all and it is irresponsible to insinuate that it was.

The author was trying to show how masculinity is portrayed in Hollywood and how that affects young men.

It's not a particularly good article but I don't think she is directly blaming Seth Rogen for this.

It was an attempt at a joke. The author's link between portrayals of men and relationships in movies and the murders on the weekend is as tenuous as linking them to Seth.

If the author is simply going to ask "How many men, raised on a steady diet of Judd Apatow comedies in which the shlubby arrested adolescent always gets the girl, find that those happy endings constantly elude them and conclude, ‘It’s not fair’?" Without making some attempt to show that the answer is not zero, then I have no ability to take their writing seriously.

 

[Halcyon]

just abolish the 2nd amendment,
scrap the gun show loophole,

debate on these things go in a million directions, just remove the ability to buy guns to almost everyone and that's that

I'm sure the guys that got stabbed to death would feel better knowing you solved all the problems.

 

[Arrowgigantic]

I'm sure the guys that got stabbed to death would feel better knowing you solved all the problems.

I am OK with people getting stabbed to death. You can't stop violence. That's why we have to get rid of the things that make it so easy for these violent people to be inescapable killing machines.

 

[The Henery]

I really cannot agree. Homophobia is not divided into different categories, nor is racism, ageism, or a variety of other forms of bigotry, and I really don't think misogyny needs to either. There can be a variety of reasons prejudices develop, but I think the best way is to acknowledge these potential reasons relevant to the situation in question, while still recognising that, ultimately, it is a form of prejudice. By categorising these topics, it can lead to the idea that some subsets of a specific type of discrimination could be worse than others, while bigotry is bad, regardless of the reasons, and elimination should be sought. I would like to clarify in that prejudiced actions of different magnitude certainly exist (and hate crimes, for example, have a more noticeably harmful effect than more casual forms, even if the casual forms develop a toxic environment which can lead to the large actions), and I won't argue this at all, but I don't think they need to be stratified as, regardless of the reason it has developed, they still result in the same vitrolic effect. EDIT: I am interested in how you would even go about creating different subsets though. How would you divide different types of misogyny? What would be the overall benefit to this? Why do you feel it's necessary? The only reason I ask these questions is because, as mentioned, I simply think that that would have a very negative effect in leading to an idea that some types of discrimination (not relating to the magnitude of the discrimination) is better than others, something I'm absolutely not in favour of.

It's just a question of tabulation, of seeking a more definite language. There isn't, say, one type of personality disorder; there's anti-social personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, histrionic personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder, the list goes on. I'm not really interested in blanching language to prevent possible nefarious use or interpretation.

Racism, which you mention, is a word that is so often misused in contemporary debate that it does a disservice to the meaning of the word.

 

[FLEABttn]

Some people are never going to get it, unfortunately.

To be honest, I never understood it myself ("just stop being crazy"), until I had a chemically induced panic attack. And then, while not understanding the depths of it, I got to at least understand somewhat that you can't, and not for a lack of trying.

And really, until I had one, I was never going to comprehend it. It's unreal. And I don't mean to downplay depression or anything like that, but my sister grew up with severe anxiety that would often manifest in panic attacks and I was not empathetic in the least until I had mine.

 

[Lonewolf_92]

That's easier than done. People manipulate company accounts in front of professional auditors all the time. If you're giving your kid an allowance for food and entertainment how do you track it? You see a 100 dollar ATM withdrawal and your kid says they went to a concert and got McDonald's, and got a shirt, and how do you know? They squirrel it away a bit at a time.

You can easily save up to buy guns, drugs, anything. Parents aren't professional accountants and you can't ask for receipts for everything. Even if you do, they return a shirt, get the cash and the receipt. What can you do? You can swipe a McDonald's receipt at the pile by the register, no one cares.

Maidenpool? mentioned using a credit card drawing from the parent's account specifically in the post you quoted, which would give the parents an itemized account of spending.

 

[speculawyer]

The Onion's on it:

‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens
http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this,36131

The Onion knocks it out of the park.

 

[User 100115]

For a look into why its so annoying and depressing that people want to dance around the word misogyny, say it was because he was rejected, and claim that this guy was just a crazy outlier, please go here.

http://whenwomenrefuse.tumblr.com

 

[Willectro]

Because "solving" mental health makes criminalizing all guns look like a cake-walk. Constitutionally, you can't keep guns away from mentally ill people, unless they've been hospitalized or jailed due to their mental illness. So, the vast majority of mentally ill people have no problem getting weapons, because the vast majority of mentally ill people have never been hospitalized or jailed due to their mental illness.

Secondly, you can't force a mentally ill person into a hospital setting unless it's clear they're a danger to themselves or others. Evidence of this usually requires some sort of action -- a suicide attempt, a threat, etc. It's remarkably difficult to commit an unwilling patient and to keep them hospitalized for any length of time -- which is good, because the vast majority of mentally ill people aren't breaking any laws, and therefore shouldn't be tossed into snake pits and forgotten about.

Most mentally ill people are hiding their mental illness -- from their families, from their bosses, from their spouses, even -- because the stigma is so profound that they'd rather sink into the abyss than admit that their brain doesn't work correctly. Until you remove the stigma and guarantee universal mental health treatment, no one is going to "fix" our mental illness problem.

And, given that no one wants to pay to deal with other people's mental illness until one of us starts shooting people, it seems unlikely that we as a civilization are suddenly going to start doing the things we've known we should do for decades. In fact, it's mostly been trending the other way. It's a lot more common for municipalities to empty out their hospitals than it is for them to build new ones.

I'm all for tackling mental health issues in this country, but whenever I see them brought up in this context, I feel the need to say that the vast majority of mentally ill people (both diagnosed and undiagnosed) are non-violent, non-criminal citizens, and they hope you keep that in mind before you start making it easier to hide us away in hospitals.

All good points. What is realistically more likely? Gun control that actually works (ie sales restrictions, ownership restrictions, and somehow stopping both black market sales and homemade firearms production which is becoming increasing easier with 3D printers), or somehow solving mental health issues? Both are daunting, near impossible tasks. Canada has tried basically honor system gun control, but the illegal firearms typically used in violent crimes seem to find their way across the border from our southern neighbours. The US would have a similar issue. All I'm trying to emphasize is that guns will likely not be hard to get for hundreds of years in the US, regardless of restrictions. The number of people who suffer from various mental illnesses is only going to grow and a solution seems unlikely as well.

We can do both.

Clearly easy access to guns isn't the "root" of this tragedy, but it is the dividing line between Elliot Rodger the murderer and Elliot Rodger the angry internet ranter. Did he kill people with tools other than guns? Of course. But knives and cars serve a purpose outside of killing.

No one's suggesting a "beat down everyone's door and take their guns"-style pogrom. Rather, we're suggesting that it become a bit more difficult for an emotionally troubled young man with a history of mental illness to buy guns with impunity. Imagine what could have happened if he were properly screened, or even if he had to endure a waiting period.

All I'm saying is I think, barring some crazy new technology, if we could snap our fingers and all guns were gone, these types of violent acts would likely continue to occur, instead utilizing different methods. Also preventing alternative means of acquisition will be tough, nearly impossible.

I agree, there should be screening. Would the outcome be different if he was denied a gun? Impossible to know.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Regardless he was a person who had a lot of issues with social interaction probably spurned on by Asperger's. And it is easy to see that his own misogyny may of been influence at least in part by his own inability to form a relationship.

... oh, you have no idea what kind of door you opened, friend. You best shut it quickly.

 

[ElFly]

All I'm saying is I think, barring some crazy new technology, if we could snap our fingers and all guns were gone, these types of violent acts would likely continue to occur, instead utilizing different methods. Also preventing alternative means of acquisition will be tough, nearly impossible.

I agree, there should be screening. Would the outcome be different if he was denied a gun? Impossible to know.

The kid was so used to being given everything on a silverplate that I am surprised he endured the waiting period for the guns.

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

Elliot was my Facebook friend until just March of this year. I unfriended and blocked him when he made a statement on my wall that "Teenagers who fornicate should get the death penalty" At that point, I was not even comfortable continuing even the minor status of his being one my FB friends

Man, a few people earlier in the thread brought up the Mitsuo Kubo guy from Persona 4 being eerily similar to Roger, and I'm playing it right now, and there's a line that's more or less the same as this in content. "Women who cheat on their husbands should be executed". Actually made me feel uncomfortable playing it after all this went down since the bad guy M.O. is pretty much for the same reason.

 

[wildfire]

What about the 3 who were stabbed? I guess knife control needs to be looked at as well.

No trying to sound insensitive here, but I think people are super quick to look at gun control which, in the US, is going to be next to impossible to implement at this point given the number of firearms in circulation. I think more energy should be spent on looking at the root cause, not the method.

Prisons have become profitable, why not mental health facilities which actually help people and make a positive change?

Unfortunately after I had taken the time to rethink the future impact of 3D printing it's obvious gun control won't be possible because within 50 years anyone who isn't dirt poor or disinterested can manufacturer one.

We are going to have to be prepared for when basic manufacturing becomes mainstream.

 

[ComputerMKII]

Schoolgirl blamed by Elliot Rodger for hatred of women doesn't remember him

 

[Casimir]

Schoolgirl blamed by Elliot Rodger for hatred of women doesn't remember him

Great. This guy is ruining peoples lives even after he's dead.

 

[Devolution]

Schoolgirl blamed by Elliot Rodger for hatred of women doesn't remember him

Why should she? For all we know it could be completely made up.

Great. This guy is ruining peoples lives even after he's dead.

He's not. Assholes are taking it upon themselves to treat his "manifesto" like some kind of legitimate history of how shit went down and out the people he mentioned. Fuck that stupid tabloid that publicized who she was and shit.

 

[kirblar]

Schoolgirl blamed by Elliot Rodger for hatred of women doesn't remember him

Not surprising in the least, given how little he appeared to actually interact with the real world.

 

[pants]

They put him in therapy and called the cops. They called the cops on their son who had done nothing yet. This is already far more than most parents would ever do. You're really reaching.

On this point: at the point it was referred it was obviously not a police matter yet, did the police hand the case over to social workers or did they just go have a look and go all 'nah aint our business'.

 

[TheStruggler]

On this point: at the point it was referred it was obviously not a police matter yet, did the police hand the case over to social workers or did they just go have a look and go all 'nah aint our business'.

I thought i read somewhere that he interacted with a therapist and a social worker, if so might have been someone who just didn't do heir job properlt

 

[leadbelly]

For a look into why its so annoying and depressing that people want to dance around the word misogyny, say it was because he was rejected, and claim that this guy was just a crazy outlier, please go here.

http://whenwomenrefuse.tumblr.com

Not sure if I am one of the people you're referring to, but I did use words like 'rejected'. However, I didn't refer to his rejection by women as a reason for him not being a misogynist, I referred to it as the possible reason for him being a misogynist. This was in reaction to the view that society had created a misogynist, and this was the logical end. However, there is an even more obvious reason, as we all witnessed from his videos: He had issues forming relationships.

... oh, you have no idea what kind of door you opened, friend. You best shut it quickly.

No. There is nothing wrong in talking about his mental problems. It doesn't mean every person who has mental problems are going to act like this. The thing you are quoting is actually true in terms of the symptoms of Asperger's and autism. They can have trouble with social interaction and become extremely obsessive about one subject. It doesn't mean every person suffering from Asperger's makes a killer, that was not what I was saying, It is just an aspect of his personality that contributed to his inability to form relationships. In terms of his mental instability though, there was probably more going on than simply attributing it all to Asperger's.

 

[User 100115]

Not sure if I am one of the people you're referring to, but I did use words like 'rejected'. However, I didn't refer to his rejection by women as a reason for him not being a misogynist, I referred to it as the possible reason for him being a misogynist. This was in reaction to the view that society had created a misogynist, and this was the logical end. However, there is an even more obvious reason, as we all witnessed from his videos: He had issues forming relationships.

Lead, I am sorry but you have been making the case in this thread consistently for 'no true misogynist' and implying that his mental health was the KEY issue here and nothing else really mattered. That tumblr really drives the point home that misogyny leads to violence, even when you aren't crazy. The reason he was a misogynist is pretty obvious, and it's not because some random girl called him a mean name when he was ten years old (if that even happened). He was a misogynist because misogyny is rampant in our society, and he was deeply involved in the more disgusting and vocal aspects of it.

 

[Kraftwerk]

I haven't been chasing this story that much on the Internet since I have been sick the past few days. Is this the hot story on every news channel right now? For some reason I haven't heard much about it. Not sure if it's because I'm in Canada.

I have been just sitting by the TV resting, past few days and simply didn't notice this much. I say this compared to other similar incidents.

 

[leadbelly]

Lead, I am sorry but you have been making the case in this thread consistently for 'no true misogynist' and implying that his mental health was the KEY issue here and nothing else really mattered. That tumblr really drives the point home that misogyny leads to violence, even when you aren't crazy. The reason he was a misogynist is pretty obvious, and it's not because some random girl called him a mean name when he was ten years old (if that even happened). He was a misogynist because misogyny is rampant in our society, and he was deeply involved in the more disgusting and vocal aspects of it.

Okay. We're talking about the specifics of this case though. There is an argument, might be correct, but I personally don't think so, that the reason he was a misogynist, in other words the 'root' cause of his misogyny, was because of these views projected on him by society. Now, that's not to say that society, the media, etc, does not contribute to men's perception of women, but in the specifics of this particular case, there seems to be, in my opinion, a lot more going on.

It doesn't seem to me that he developed misogynistic views, and then attributed everything bad going on in his life to them, I think it was the other way around, he was completely unable to form relationships. He believed this was because women were repulsed by him. He then reacted to this problem by shifting the blame on them in order to cope. It wasn't him, it was them. I think that is how he developed his misogynistic views.

And I have explained countless times now why I see his mental problems as important. There is evidence for this. He hated pretty much everyone for one reason or another and reacted to things in a way that was always extreme and disproportionate. I keep going back to the fact that he planned to kill his stepmother and brother simply for the crime of possibly having a better life than him. This was a crime to him that in his extremely psychologically unstable mind he believed deserved death.

 

[User 100115]

I am really, really tired of saying the same things over and over and over again and you missing my point, so I'm bowing out.

Which might be the point of arguing in that manner but I'm exhausted and this thread is depressing.

 

[leadbelly]

I am really, really tired of saying the same things over and over and over again and you missing my point, so I'm bowing out.

Which might be the point of arguing in that manner but I'm exhausted and this thread is depressing.

I'm sorry, I don't know exactly what your point is then. I am talking about the specifics of this case and my last post has explained my view on it.

 

[Karkador]

I'm sorry, I don't know exactly what your point is then. I am talking about the specifics of this case and my last post has explained my view on it.

What are you apologizing for? It's not like you've earnestly tried to understand anything anybody else has said. You were given a link to look at, and you responded to that message with more positioning and semantics about your arguments. Personally, I'm pretty tired of watching you ignore all the white elephants in the room to tell us "your view".

 

[Dennis]

It turns out the problem isn't guns, knives, misogyny or mental illness.

Nope, it's all Seth Rogen's fault.

That article is severely idiotic.