No. No, no, no, no, no this is just virgin shaming even more. This will STILL make it seem like having sex with a woman is the defining attribute of a young man's life, and any man who doesn't get what they want is sub-human. We have to stop this. Vaginas aren't a man's ticket to "status." Women are human beings, who want things and can decide things just like men. This the media today, and it's part of the problem.
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Seven Dead, Several Hospitalized in Isla Vista Mass Shooting
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No. No, no, no, no, no this is just virgin shaming even more. This will STILL make it seem like having sex with a woman is the defining attribute of a young man's life, and any man who doesn't get what they want is sub-human. We have to stop this. Vaginas aren't a man's ticket to "status." Women are human beings, who want things and can decide things just like men. This the media today, and it's part of the problem.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
It's a situation where I don't ever see exclusive concern for victims in anything like this. We always get the "either."
Scofield94941
Member
They should rename media to FEAR EVERYTHING. There is nothing tabloids and media want more than you to be afraid so you'll buy their next issue and read their next blog all the while their ad revenue soars.
It's frightening shit.
Wait, huh? I don't claim to know anything about Rodger. I'm not making a nature vs. nurture argument at all. I'm just saying there's a problem when people are trying to justify his behavior simply because they've been rejected by women.
Scofield94941
Member
You guys keep talking about "them" and "they"? Plural. Rodgers and who else is the potential victim here?
It is always possible to identify in some way with reprehensible people. Hitler loved dogs. Jeffrey Dahmer loved his grandmother. It's a cliché. There is nothing profound about reading a manifesto like this guy's, or the Unabomber's, or Anders Breivik's, and seeing in there some small reflection of your own psyche. It is normal to have had dark thoughts at some point in your life. The question is how deep, how often, and for how long these thoughts last past your teens.
I don't begrudge anyone for having these thoughts. But I do question why they are being shared in this thread, at this time, and so persistently.
A number of people will have identified in some way with the killer, and that's not necessarily evil. But that wasn't everyone's instinct. There are many people who, on hearing the news and reading the guy's writings, immediately identified with his victims. They've felt that weird stare from across the room, received abusive texts from people they rejected. They haven't said much in this thread (I wonder why?) but there are many of them out there.
If you find yourself reading through this guy's writings and feeling those uncomfortable moments of recognition, I suggest you stop for a moment and try to recognise yourself in the 'enemies' he talks about. Ever hung out in a coffee shop with a girl? You could have been a victim. Ever been black while being with a girl? He'd have hated your guts. Ever driven a Honda Civic with a girl in the passenger seat? etc. The girl needn't have been your girlfriend; your sister or co-worker might have been enough to earn you a spot on his list. He doesn't seem to have done much investigation before pronouncing judgement.
After doing what I suggest, if you still find yourself wanting to unload your inner pain on NeoGAF it might be time to seek assistance from a counsellor or medical professional. You won't get good help here but there are resources out there and there is no shame in accessing them.
I don't begrudge anyone for having these thoughts. But I do question why they are being shared in this thread, at this time, and so persistently.
A number of people will have identified in some way with the killer, and that's not necessarily evil. But that wasn't everyone's instinct. There are many people who, on hearing the news and reading the guy's writings, immediately identified with his victims. They've felt that weird stare from across the room, received abusive texts from people they rejected. They haven't said much in this thread (I wonder why?) but there are many of them out there.
If you find yourself reading through this guy's writings and feeling those uncomfortable moments of recognition, I suggest you stop for a moment and try to recognise yourself in the 'enemies' he talks about. Ever hung out in a coffee shop with a girl? You could have been a victim. Ever been black while being with a girl? He'd have hated your guts. Ever driven a Honda Civic with a girl in the passenger seat? etc. The girl needn't have been your girlfriend; your sister or co-worker might have been enough to earn you a spot on his list. He doesn't seem to have done much investigation before pronouncing judgement.
After doing what I suggest, if you still find yourself wanting to unload your inner pain on NeoGAF it might be time to seek assistance from a counsellor or medical professional. You won't get good help here but there are resources out there and there is no shame in accessing them.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Yes! It's been frustrating reading people compare themselves (or strawmen) to the person as if the rest of us don't understand or haven't experienced the basic themes of loneliness, rejection, etc.
Honestly, in every single girl-age thread, there is some contingent that is just as scary. I'm not being hyperbolic. There are always a few posts that leave me queasy and I find myself leaving the board for a while. Earlier in this thread Devo posted two threads just from a day or two ago that were fucked up and scary.
I think it's unfortunate that the last few pages have been about people trying to see a victim side of this killer. A better discussion would be about how toxic his views were, and yet how prevalent variations of them are. The notion that women are a prize to be had; even the common sentiment that women crave wealthy, handsome men can be seen in this guy. He had nice clothes, expensive glasses, nice car, connections, where were the women? But every thread you'll see the same sentiment, that women *fill in the blanks.*
And early in this thread, there were guys saying they never realized that women lived with fear because of all the rape precautions, the harassment, etc; and yet women on this board are in every single thread shouting this. But we're never fucking heard. We're ignored. For a few hours yesterday, I thought we might actually get somewhere. Maybe a few guys would listen a bit longer and digest what we've been saying. But, nope. We're back to "creep shaming" and shit.
i'm not defending the assholes identifying with the piece of shit. but you are just trying to make the conversation around misoyny which is just as bad
he was a troubled individual, he had mental issues and that is why he did what he did. not because MISOGYNY. focusing on the way he thought about woman is losing the focus on the reasons of this incident
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
How did you come to this conclusion? He sincerely wanted women to have arranged mating because he actually considers them objects.
I'm not sure who this mentality helps.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Great post
This.
Have you actually even glanced at the kid's manifesto?
by reading the entire fucking manifesto and by knowing a lot of people with mental issues. you don't have to be a fucking wizard to know that this guy had mental problems
Mammoth Jones
Member
I don't see anyone here saying he did what he did due to misogyny. Just discussions about how casually accepted it is and how some of us guys don't even realize it happens as often as it does.
Angelus Errare
Banned
The sad part is you're serious. Of course he had mental problems that was outlined by his parents. But to think his view on women had no bearing on why he did what he did is just...ridiculous.
CountAntonius
Member
Thanks for the perspective everyone. I mean it.
His father did go to lengths to arrange pretend girlfriends for him, which he rejected. Try to go below the surface and its easy to see what looks like misogyny was a result of far more deep rooted psychological issues he developed. In the physical world, yes he was your textbook misogynist, racist, etc.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Who is saying he didn't have mental problems?
There isn't a misogyny fairy who only imparts the viewpoint onto people who are sane.
User 100115
Banned
How are his motivations not at all clear? He had a toxic viewpoint that women existed solely for his pleasure, and was enraged that they didn't act accordingly. Did you read his manifesto? Every.single 'incident' was because some woman didn't act the way he wanted her to act. How is it not about misogyny?
I know it's uncomfortable to think about, but it's much, much more uncomfortable to have to face shit like that every day. Perhaps we are trying to start a conversation to get people to realize that.
Edit: what someday said so fucking hard.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
This is getting into that awful place where rich kids are seen as misunderstood instead of as criminals.
BobbyRobby
Member
Condemnation and compassion are not mutually exclusive.
Stop trying to reframe what people are saying as a defense for this guys actions. Why not take what they are saying at face value and wait until they actually defend the guy before calling then out for it.
Would you say Gahndi or MLKjr were defending the actions of their oppressors??
They said to love your enemies, and that can be a profoundly powerful tool for enacting change.
Stop trying to reframe what people are saying as a defense for this guys actions. Why not take what they are saying at face value and wait until they actually defend the guy before calling then out for it.
Would you say Gahndi or MLKjr were defending the actions of their oppressors??
They said to love your enemies, and that can be a profoundly powerful tool for enacting change.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Not to derail this thread or make it a racial thread, but that's always been seen as the case and it usually extends past that. Look at how media portrays black youth to white youth (regardless of parental income). Hell even in the Trayvon Martin case, he was framed as a thug/delinquent/hoodlum and rarely as a victim.
Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
And in that same manifesto, every single anecdote he wrote was centered around females and sex, and how it angered him. The people who are pointing out his misogynistic behavior aren't exactly pulling it out of their ass. Nobody is denying that his mental issues were the driving force here, but you can't forget that there are multiple layers to every personality, and his deep disrespect toward women was a large part of his.
Omg I just read this, how twisted.
sure, having a different opinion than you is "sad" and "ridiculous". bye.
i understand the things that are wrong with society and the way society treats women. but this catastrophe is not the right thing to want to "start the conversation" with. it's putting some people an image in their head that is not right.
i don't even want to discuss this anymore because people seem to be a little aggressive in this thread and i'm not even against women trying to raise their voice and try to change things, for equality. i just feel that people are giving the wrong focus to this massacre and that can be very bad.
Angelus Errare
Banned
No no Pau, you don't understand. This is mental illness not misogynistic at all. He didn't hate girls/thought of them as property to be distributed to men for breeding at all. He didn't look down on women because he was misogynistic, he looked down on women because he was sick. I know that sounds like misogyny but it's totes different! Only sane people who look down on women and see them as objects are misogynistic.
It is when you're trying to 2+2 isn't 4.
This makes me both angry and sad in ways I can't explain. How did this happen, how did we get to a point where groups like these exist and are viewed as legitimate by large enough numbers of people to be thriving?
BurnOutBrighter
Banned
Again, I wasn't talking about Rodgers in that long post. My posts are basically saying that the patriarchy shits on men just as much as it shits on women, which in hindsight was probably not a good place to post on such a charged topic when people are looking to condemn anyone who apparently "sympathises" with Rodgers and can't read the first sentence of my post declaring that I was talking about another topic completely.
Relating it back to the topic at hand - as others have said, it is dangerous to simply blame Rodgers, call him an evil monster, and call it a day. It is an oversimplification and isn't constructive, nor will it help prevent crimes like this happening in the future.
That was what I was trying to get at - an understanding of the factors of what led to this. There are many issues at play here. The widespread availability of guns and the inadequate background checks on gun buyers. The inadequate mental health care he received. The police not (or not being able to) thoroughly investigate Rodgers. And a society where women feel under constant threat of violence, and which silently expects both men and women to live up to impossible ideals.
You probably think you're being clever with that strawman, but you're not.
bolded aside because fucking lol
people need to stop rationalizing his issues in tandem with their own. Of course, you'll never hear "I completely agree with what this guy did" on GAF. At least its not likely. But all of the "I used to feel the same way as this guy" is just... cringe inspiring. Your social issues are probably nowhere near this guy's - and if they are, you got some serious problems.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Your first sentence in that post wasn't convincing, because literally every word after it goes against what you said. That isn't on us.
The rest of this newest post is good, though, and I wonder why you didn't post that originally.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Nothing strawman about that at all, that's the argument being put forth and it's utterly ridiculous. You can be misogynistic and be mentally ill. Misogyny isn't exclusive to sane people.
Misogyny is like racism, we all know it exists but when a textbook definition is pointed out suddenly it's anything but.
haha , you are ridiculous, and you are clearly against the thought of people having different opinions, no, this is not math, this is a discussion that people are trying to have where people say what they think.
it isn't what you want, not everyone has to think like you. you should know that.
User 100115
Banned
But by saying 'we shouldn't be talking about the misogyny' when that was his basic motivation (yes, his mental health issues contributed to it, but if he hadn't been exposed to the circlejerk of misogyny that exists in many places online, would he still have gone on a murderous rampage?) you are trying to silence scared women who see this type of behavior, albeit to a less deadly extent, in their daily lives and want something to change.
PUA are narcissistic sociopaths. Everything exists to be used, if it can't be used it is an obstacle. They're the genetic aberrations we should have left in the sea.
Vicetrailia
Member
.
From the article. I saw this quote when I was watching the kids YT vid, I had no choice but to chastise him. It's pathetic.
A mentally deranged individual will act like a lot of things scorned upon by society. He was a misogynist, who is denying that here? And just as big a racist. I'm sure there's 15 more other classifications we can find for him here.
But does that need a bigger focus than the mental devastations fueling that external behavior? We can talk on the surface (and laugh with the tabloid writers) or peel away on the layers and find there's something more central to it all.
i'm not trying to silence anyone. and i also didn't say that the misogyny should't be talked about, i'm just saying that it shouldn't be put as the thing that caused this.
but as i said, i'm no longer discussing this
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
When can it ever be a focus, then? This is like the Sandy Hook "now's not the time" conversations.
Misogyny - Dislike of, contempt of, or ingrained prejudice against women
I understand that one must empathize with villains to prevent them from being created again - as villains are more often than not created, not born with villainy - but one also cannot excuse their actions to avoid introspection or sweep social issues under the rug.
A tragic story, and now we must deduce why it happened to prevent future tragedies. Just don't get sucked down the rabbit hole yourself.
I understand that one must empathize with villains to prevent them from being created again - as villains are more often than not created, not born with villainy - but one also cannot excuse their actions to avoid introspection or sweep social issues under the rug.
A tragic story, and now we must deduce why it happened to prevent future tragedies. Just don't get sucked down the rabbit hole yourself.
maladroit
Member
he wrote at length about how he wanted to win the lottery, become dictator of the world, and force all women to be either his personal fuck cattle or dead
So you want to hijack a research on that storm not for its root cause, but for a side effect? Be my guest.
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