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Seven Dead, Several Hospitalized in Isla Vista Mass Shooting
- Thread starter tehbible
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Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
No one's stopping anyone from having conversations about mental issues. People are trying to stop the "what about men" talk, though. It just comes off weird and unsettling in a thread about a murderer.
Angelus Errare
Banned
The fact you don't want to have a discussion on what is PLAIN AS DAY his main motivation for his actions is as I stated ridiculous.
You people are in essence trying to frame this entire thing around this idea that his view on women played absolutely no part in his actions despite it being central to his actions by the kid's own damn words is just lunacy.
As I stated, misogyny isn't something exclusive to sane people. Stop trying to downplay this kid's misogynistic views as if they had little bearing on his actions. Saying he's mentally ill in isolation to the factors that helped shaped his mental state is so disingenuous I can't believe anyone is arguing it.
Dabookerman
Member
Probably when the women are in the camps being starved to death....
It should be a focus, and it should be talked about. The #yesallwomen topic has shown that there are an absolute huge amount of women out there who are fucking terrified of people with attitudes like Rodgers. Of which there are many men with his attitude.
On top of that many other situations that they have to deal with daily, in which if they don't adhere to whatever men ask of them, then they might end up turning into the next Rodger. And men putting pressure on other men to man up and get pussy ASAP is contributing to that as well.
This shit needs to change, and now.
faceless007
Member
It is really fucking galling how every single news story that happens related to misogyny and gender treatment somehow morphs into how we shouldn't talk about misogyny and gender treatment but something else instead.
"People are allowed to talk about mental illness, unless it relates to how they may have potentially been mentally ill."
I'm seriously not understanding where the hell you're getting this whole idea that people are making this a "what about the men" discussion. The most I've really seen thus far is people talking about how they may relate to the murderer, but that's far from what you seem to be seeing.
Aesius
Member
He was definitely a hardcore misogynist. He hated the "hot" girls that he coveted so intensely, and by extension, he hated the "hot" guys who got them.
I also find it interesting that he really only references very attractive women (in his eyes) throughout the manifesto. Other women apparently were invisible to him, or completely inconsequential. If they weren't tall, blonde-haired Abercrombie and Fitch models, they didn't exist.
He had no desire to seek out "average" women. In fact, he insulted one of his roommates for having a girl in their apartment who he deemed unattractive.
It's the same story with his friends. At Isla Vista, where he claimed his life was so unbelievably terrible, he actually had a crew of 4-5 friends that he hung out with on a regular basis. But he considered them beneath him, because they couldn't elevate his social status or get him into parties.
Fiction is right in that misogyny is what drove him to ultimately kill, but this guy's issues ran very, very deep. Even if he had somehow won the lottery, landed a girlfriend, and was able to flaunt his status over his "oppressors," he still would have been ticking time bomb just waiting to go off.
I also find it interesting that he really only references very attractive women (in his eyes) throughout the manifesto. Other women apparently were invisible to him, or completely inconsequential. If they weren't tall, blonde-haired Abercrombie and Fitch models, they didn't exist.
He had no desire to seek out "average" women. In fact, he insulted one of his roommates for having a girl in their apartment who he deemed unattractive.
It's the same story with his friends. At Isla Vista, where he claimed his life was so unbelievably terrible, he actually had a crew of 4-5 friends that he hung out with on a regular basis. But he considered them beneath him, because they couldn't elevate his social status or get him into parties.
Fiction is right in that misogyny is what drove him to ultimately kill, but this guy's issues ran very, very deep. Even if he had somehow won the lottery, landed a girlfriend, and was able to flaunt his status over his "oppressors," he still would have been ticking time bomb just waiting to go off.
yeah, i know, you already made clear that you don't like people arguing. so yeah, i'm no longer arguing with you
Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
I'm just saying that are are multiple circumstances at play surrounding this tragedy and focusing solely on one aspect of it does it a disservice.
I'm unsure how to respond this, it really is difficult to gauge tone on the internet.
Are you trying to say that his superiority complex led to a formation of misogynistic tendencies when thinking, feeling human beings did not conform to his desires? Or are you trying to say that his being rejected led to the formation of his misogynistic tendencies and by extension this tragedy?
yeah, i know, you already made clear that you don't like people arguing. so yeah, i'm no longer arguing with you
He literally wrote that he wants all women in the world to be rounded up in a concentration camp and starved to death, save a few to serve as synthetic uteri in an underground laboratory to eliminate all sex from the world.
What exactly would you call this behavior? Certainly seems like a deeply ingrained prejudice against women. If only we had a word to classify this behavior...
Its at the top of the page. Dude just linked that Shy Boys doc on some maybe a lot of people are misunderstood shit.
i would call it misogyny. because i never said he wasn't a misogynist
LabouredSubterfuge
Member
This is where I stand. He was so obviously extremely misogynistic but at the same time I'm not sure that fact informs a wider view of what he's done. The guy was and irredeemable fucking lunatic who thought the world owed him more in every way. I believe he could've had a stable relationship and still would've done what he did. He had more of a romantic connection with the concept of retribution than he did with the idea of being loved/admired by women.
Devolution
Member
Something so obviously misogynistic is not so because then some people might have to re-evaluate their bullshit.
not too much, devo.
Warm Machine
Member
It sounds like a childish power fantasy to me. If all women are subservient then they have to view him as the one in power and would do anything to please him so they may save themselves. At least that is my take. I haven't read the whole manifesto.
Well, the guy was clearly insane. Whichever way we try to frame it, it will be always within the context of a person with deep-rooted mental issues. He had an extremely delusional way of looking at the world.
His views about women were extremely misogynistic. As I mentioned earlier though, I don't think it was the sole reason for him killing people. In fact the first 3 people he killed were men. The misogyny was something that he developed because of the constant rejection from women. He became angry and extremely frustrated, and that resulted in him becoming very bitter. It is a very warped viewpoint from a person who perceived that all women hated him.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
You made this response while quoting me saying people should talk about the mental issues.
User 100115
Banned
Because it's easier to blame mental illness than face uncomfortable truths about the reality of the world we live in.
Let's blame 'crazy people' because they are like the 'back alley rapist'; a mythical creature that only exists in other people's lives, not your own.
Nevermind that there are BILLIONS of lonely depressed and rejected people that don't start murdering folk willy nilly because a woman/man didn't smile at them. And millions of actual people with depression that don't hurt others because of their illness. But nope, its easier to blame that instead of the reality, because it helps you sleep at night.
Prax
Member
There is so much confused identification with this guy that it's becoming tragic to behold.
Please stop romanticizing his plight, some of you. And stop feeling all weirdly elitist/proud about being able to "have compassion" for the psychopathic misogynistic murderer!
Maybe it was a mistake! Maybe you thought you were a bit similar and were scared and hope you are not like this guy "in the end"! Well good! STOP! Do not double down and try to reminisce and further "explain". There is actually nothing to explain on that front!
He was a misogynist and mentally ill and refused help or resistant to the help that was given to him to the point that he wrote an autobiographical manifesto, youtubed it for posterity x2, and then murdered people.
Please do yourself and others a favour and NOT try to explain this by identifying with him, because chances are you are not on this level, will never be, and you misread how troubled he actually is. Don't wax on about your struggle and need for compassion because due to the nature of this thread and the extreme outcomes, you will be aligning yourself with him even if you say you aren't.
If you do mirror him a lot in reality and feel deep resonance, then GET HELP. No excuses.
And yeah, you can be mentally ill AND misogynist. Just because he displays a lot of babble and probably shallow thinking doesn't mean misogyny is not an issue he is deeply mired in. It became his issue. He became one with it and it doesn't matter with the chicken and egg example of what woman spurned him first etc (that is actually pretty ludicrous). You can't separate them now even if you wish you could, it may not be his only reason but it's his main fuel because that's what he made it to be. So don't try to tease it all apart, because I think that's impossible and it might make you look like an apologist. :T
Please stop romanticizing his plight, some of you. And stop feeling all weirdly elitist/proud about being able to "have compassion" for the psychopathic misogynistic murderer!
Maybe it was a mistake! Maybe you thought you were a bit similar and were scared and hope you are not like this guy "in the end"! Well good! STOP! Do not double down and try to reminisce and further "explain". There is actually nothing to explain on that front!
He was a misogynist and mentally ill and refused help or resistant to the help that was given to him to the point that he wrote an autobiographical manifesto, youtubed it for posterity x2, and then murdered people.
Please do yourself and others a favour and NOT try to explain this by identifying with him, because chances are you are not on this level, will never be, and you misread how troubled he actually is. Don't wax on about your struggle and need for compassion because due to the nature of this thread and the extreme outcomes, you will be aligning yourself with him even if you say you aren't.
If you do mirror him a lot in reality and feel deep resonance, then GET HELP. No excuses.
And yeah, you can be mentally ill AND misogynist. Just because he displays a lot of babble and probably shallow thinking doesn't mean misogyny is not an issue he is deeply mired in. It became his issue. He became one with it and it doesn't matter with the chicken and egg example of what woman spurned him first etc (that is actually pretty ludicrous). You can't separate them now even if you wish you could, it may not be his only reason but it's his main fuel because that's what he made it to be. So don't try to tease it all apart, because I think that's impossible and it might make you look like an apologist. :T
I agree, there are roots in a superiority complex that manifested themselves through hateful and misogynistic tendencies.
The practical applications of an analysis of this case would not only look at deeply rooted issues, but very importantly in how they were manifested, why they were manifested, and what social factors led to such a manifestation. To ignore the role misogyny played is to create a large disconnect between reality and theorization of the deepest level of unconscious processes.
I think where the confusion is coming from in this thread is that there's a camp here on GAF that believes it was purely, unadulterated misogyny independent of anything psychological or mental that lead to the devastation. And they want that to become the absolute central point of this thread.
Though I see this another side that views his upbringing, diagnosed mental instability, history of being bullied, chronic isolation and the toll it took on his mental fortitude that lead to his zealot and almost child like hate on women and people of color.
I don't get where this hostility is coming from though.
CHEEZMO™;113442124 said:
CHEEZMO™;113442445 said:
Comparing a 22year old kid with aspergers to Hitler..
Angelus Errare
Banned
No one is saying misogyny is his sole reason for killing people, what we are doing however is arguing the insane idea that we shouldn't talk about misogyny because it somehow has little to do with why he did what he did.
His views on women were a BIG part of what he did; I'm just tired of people trying to downplay it because it makes them uncomfortable. He hated anyone who had women or who bragged about sex (his roommates) he hated seeing women going with other guys over him, he hated how he was a kid and a little girl rejected him, he hated how other girls rejected him. He started developing an superiority complex and deemed that women shouldn't have free will and should simply exist to be fucked by guys like him, he wanted women enslaved and much of them killed off save for a few whose purpose in life was as sex objects. He wanted to go into a sorority house and specifically eliminate the blonde hair blue eye females, because those in particular were the kind of women he was after but couldn't have. He wanted to kill people who had been with women like that.
At some point it becomes blindingly obvious what his focal point was, his echo chamber fueled it but it was always there. He attempted PUA crap and hated when it didn't work; his views on women started very early in his life as he states in his own manifesto, which is why it baffles me that people don't think we should be talking about his views on women except when people bring it up to say they relate to him because of their own loneliness and blah blah blah the rest of us wouldn't understand, but here's a link to shy-guys or whatever but at the sametime, apparently no one is trying to victimize the killer because.
His misogyny played a pretty damn vital role in defining both him and his illness; there is a reason why when you're undergoing therapy they tell you to write out how you're feeling. It gives psychologists a look into the main issue that is shaping your current mental health. So everyone trying to divorce the two as separate issues or suggesting we don't talk about his misogynistic views make no sense to me. Especially given how many people have been trying to "relate" and see him as a victim or drawing upon their own personal experiences with women or lack thereof. We literally had someone link to some shy boy video in effort to make this kid not seem as such a bad person, and yet we have people trying to downplay women and his view on them? Makes no sense.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
I'm pretty sure this represents literally no one. Where did you see this?
Aesius
Member
I've honestly been thinking about this guy all day, and I hate that.
I stayed up until 3 a.m. reading that damn manifesto.
But what about his victims? Where are there autobiographies? They, too, experienced rejection, loneliness, uncertainty, hatred, and disappointment over the years, but we don't get the same glimpses into their lives.
It makes me sick how the media glorifies guys like this and brings them to the forefronts of our minds after they do unspeakable things, even if it's "unintentional."
I stayed up until 3 a.m. reading that damn manifesto.
But what about his victims? Where are there autobiographies? They, too, experienced rejection, loneliness, uncertainty, hatred, and disappointment over the years, but we don't get the same glimpses into their lives.
It makes me sick how the media glorifies guys like this and brings them to the forefronts of our minds after they do unspeakable things, even if it's "unintentional."
That... that's just a REALLY good David Hayter impersonator right?
But what was Hitler? What social factors formed Hitler, made Hitler do the things he did?
Its an apt comparison for once, considering his manifesto certainly mirrored the intentions of Hitler, down to the undertones of eugenics and clear superiority complex.
Comparing two troubled individuals with similar intentions, one with a vehicle to carry out their plans to a further extent.
I feel like what's weird with the expressions of partial sympathy for or identification with the killer, or with what I can only call the #NotAllMisogynists defense, is that it doesn't seem consistent with the way we usually talk about evil actions. Maybe it's because we have this huge manifesto that tries to show how Rodgers' attitudes a few days ago were continuous with his attitudes when he was a young child, or maybe it's because he presents as something like an extreme version of the typical "nice guy", but I feel like there's a sort of free will confusion at work.
Take anyone who decides to go out and do something very evil. They're going to have a story, even if we don't have access to it. It's not going to be possible to explain how they got to where they ended up without talking about experiences they had when they were much younger - even ones they had when they were children. In that sense anyone like this is going to be a victim, because obviously children aren't morally accountable for their personal development and you can draw this causal chain. Likewise anyone who does something like this is going to seem to think very differently from most people - their reasoning is going to seem crazy, because how else could they be getting to the conclusions they're getting to? Basically all of them are going to have had the sorts of experiences that lots of other people have had but are going to take a wrong turn somewhere and interpret those experiences as requiring that they go out and kill a bunch of people.
So there's more going on than "misogyny" or "guns", but this just isn't very interesting. There's always more going on. If this guy isn't fully morally accountable for what he did then nobody is morally accountable for what they do. The interesting question about the causal chain is "what should have happened differently?" And that's why misogyny and guns and the limits of police authority keep coming up. What happens if this guy grows up in a world where he's not bombarded with messages about women being objects? Blaming misogyny is about trying to understand where the guy was coming from - it's a little similar to talking about how it's hard for boys to face rejection - but it's placing the focus on what we ought to try to change. Stopping at "he had mental issues" isn't useful, unless the idea is that what went wrong here is that he should have gotten more help (but it kind of seems like he got quite a bit of help, and so unless we want to start committing lots of people against their will there's not much that could have been done in this area). "He had mental issues" feels like a conversation-stopper that serves to make it harder to talk about what other causal factors - ones we can influence - played a role.
Take anyone who decides to go out and do something very evil. They're going to have a story, even if we don't have access to it. It's not going to be possible to explain how they got to where they ended up without talking about experiences they had when they were much younger - even ones they had when they were children. In that sense anyone like this is going to be a victim, because obviously children aren't morally accountable for their personal development and you can draw this causal chain. Likewise anyone who does something like this is going to seem to think very differently from most people - their reasoning is going to seem crazy, because how else could they be getting to the conclusions they're getting to? Basically all of them are going to have had the sorts of experiences that lots of other people have had but are going to take a wrong turn somewhere and interpret those experiences as requiring that they go out and kill a bunch of people.
So there's more going on than "misogyny" or "guns", but this just isn't very interesting. There's always more going on. If this guy isn't fully morally accountable for what he did then nobody is morally accountable for what they do. The interesting question about the causal chain is "what should have happened differently?" And that's why misogyny and guns and the limits of police authority keep coming up. What happens if this guy grows up in a world where he's not bombarded with messages about women being objects? Blaming misogyny is about trying to understand where the guy was coming from - it's a little similar to talking about how it's hard for boys to face rejection - but it's placing the focus on what we ought to try to change. Stopping at "he had mental issues" isn't useful, unless the idea is that what went wrong here is that he should have gotten more help (but it kind of seems like he got quite a bit of help, and so unless we want to start committing lots of people against their will there's not much that could have been done in this area). "He had mental issues" feels like a conversation-stopper that serves to make it harder to talk about what other causal factors - ones we can influence - played a role.
PairOfFilthySocks
Member
I hate to break it to you, but I imagine this won't be the last time a lonely angry teen takes out his frsutrations in the most violent manner possible. Yes, we have the 'why', but we don't have the 'how'. Last I knew, kids weren't born with misogynistic tendencies.
Disregarding all attempts to actually discern what would drive a human being to do such a thing as being 'just crazy' accomplishes nothing. Every time these shootings happen, we're all treated to a media circus where every tom, dick and harry points fingers. The immortalization the killer is subjected to is appaling and occurs like clockwork, but I do believe there needs to be a seperation of the killer themselves and their motives, namely in how and where they manifest and grow.
That we've got members here able to grasp some semblance of relatability to how the killer ended up as he did shouldn't result in hysteria and accusatory remarks, it should only emphasise that, though it's not going to make people pick up a gun, there are people who experience similar debilitating frsutrations.
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
I never mentioned Hitler. Besides, Hitler was just a mentally ill sap with an inferiority complex. His actions weren't motivated by anti-Semitism and everything could have been avoided if he got into art school.
Edit: Let's get off the Hitler tangent, please.
This is hardly the first man to go on a rampage specifically targeting women because he feels that he's been rejected by women. It is not what I'd called "common" but it's hardly unheard of.
Yes, he probably had other underlying psychological issues. I don't think anyone would deny that this is a factor. I don't know his whole psychological history, but it would seem silly to me to deny this as a factor. But his motivations absolutely matter, and I don't see how his motivations and his attitudes can be separated from his underlying psychological issues. I don't think he'd be so bitter if he weren't so convinced that he was owed sex.
And I don't think this necessarily follows a long history of rejection. I'll give you an example. I have a straight male co-worker (many, actually) who is currently single. He is very interested in getting a girlfriend, and has tried asking out I don't know how many girls. He's asked a few co-workers, and a few girls outside of work when I've been with him, and so forth. He has gotten some (actual) numbers and had some dates almost set up, but it's generally fallen through. He hasn't started whining about how awful women are; he hasn't started calling them all bitches who only want to date X kind of guy. I haven't seen him act the least bit bitter about it, and he's still friends with co-workers he's asked out.
You only get bitter about rejection from women if you think you're owed something. He thought he was owed something from women - sex - and he didn't get it. When he didn't get it, he got angry. But the bitterness developed from preconceptions about what he deserved from women.
This is hardly the first man to go on a rampage specifically targeting women because he feels that he's been rejected by women. It is not what I'd called "common" but it's hardly unheard of.
Yes, he probably had other underlying psychological issues. I don't think anyone would deny that this is a factor. I don't know his whole psychological history, but it would seem silly to me to deny this as a factor. But his motivations absolutely matter, and I don't see how his motivations and his attitudes can be separated from his underlying psychological issues. I don't think he'd be so bitter if he weren't so convinced that he was owed sex.
And I don't think this necessarily follows a long history of rejection. I'll give you an example. I have a straight male co-worker (many, actually) who is currently single. He is very interested in getting a girlfriend, and has tried asking out I don't know how many girls. He's asked a few co-workers, and a few girls outside of work when I've been with him, and so forth. He has gotten some (actual) numbers and had some dates almost set up, but it's generally fallen through. He hasn't started whining about how awful women are; he hasn't started calling them all bitches who only want to date X kind of guy. I haven't seen him act the least bit bitter about it, and he's still friends with co-workers he's asked out.
You only get bitter about rejection from women if you think you're owed something. He thought he was owed something from women - sex - and he didn't get it. When he didn't get it, he got angry. But the bitterness developed from preconceptions about what he deserved from women.
Angelus Errare
Banned
edited because Mumei.
I'm only up to the part where he's about 10 years old, around the time his world begins to unravel as he gains self-awareness, as his violent jealous tendencies begin to take hold and when he begins recognising the social classes around him.
It's a fascinating read, but two things struck me about it so far.
One is how normal and idyllic his childhood sounded. Besides his parents divorcing, which is admittedly a huge hiccup in his childhood, it sounded almost perfect and as though it was a very comfortable and rewarding environment to grow up in.
Secondly, I'm astonished at the level of detail in his recollections. Perhaps this is a byproduct of his mental issues, but his memories are remarkably vivid. If I were to write a similar summary of my childhood based on the vivid memories I had, it would be laughably vague, and I had a really great childhood.
I'm intrigued to encounter the point where he went from being a frustrated and socially awkward kid to a dangerously bitter young adult.
It's a fascinating read, but two things struck me about it so far.
One is how normal and idyllic his childhood sounded. Besides his parents divorcing, which is admittedly a huge hiccup in his childhood, it sounded almost perfect and as though it was a very comfortable and rewarding environment to grow up in.
Secondly, I'm astonished at the level of detail in his recollections. Perhaps this is a byproduct of his mental issues, but his memories are remarkably vivid. If I were to write a similar summary of my childhood based on the vivid memories I had, it would be laughably vague, and I had a really great childhood.
I'm intrigued to encounter the point where he went from being a frustrated and socially awkward kid to a dangerously bitter young adult.
I'm sure there's some revisionist history going on here. His memories are just as fuzzy as anyone else's, but in building a narrative for his manifesto he embellishes his childhood memories. It's probably mostly made up.
"It makes me uncomfortable that I've thought somewhat similarly as this person. Better take the focus off of the thoughts we have in common and shift it completely to his mental illness, whatever that is."
RockTurtle
Member
the misogyny was a large symptom of an even larger cause, not the main issue. i believe that's what a lot of posters are trying to convey.
this is kinda of apparent when you take into account his self-hatred for being half minority, hatred of minorities, his hatred of what he perceived as "lower class" people by putting so much emphasis on the type of car he and others drove, his heritage of "european" superiority.
the dude was a major sexual narcissistic case. Not trying to downplay the emphasis he had on women, but the conversation seems like it's heading towards a classic case of missing the forest for the trees.
this is kinda of apparent when you take into account his self-hatred for being half minority, hatred of minorities, his hatred of what he perceived as "lower class" people by putting so much emphasis on the type of car he and others drove, his heritage of "european" superiority.
the dude was a major sexual narcissistic case. Not trying to downplay the emphasis he had on women, but the conversation seems like it's heading towards a classic case of missing the forest for the trees.
Warm Machine
Member
It really depends on the person. I could relate loads of events and emotions from my childhood. Some people have incredibly good memories. Emotional highs and lows tend to stick around.
Sometimes you have to focus more on the causes of these things rather than just the victims. To make sure these things never happen again. Whether it's mental health in the US, the effect of rhetoric he may or may not have been influenced by, society as a whole, fondness for pokemon and the Star Wars prequels etc etc etc
Aesius
Member
Basically, puberty happened.
He matured mentally and physically later than his peers, and that caused him to develop a massive inferiority complex.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
I agree with your sentiment but do you really think the families of the victims would like to receive the same level of public scrutiny that the shooter and his family is getting? They'd probably like to be left alone right now.
And yeah, I kind of hate myself too for taking an interest in this awful situation :/
Aesius
Member
Nah, I'm just saying that the victims in tragedies like this become numbers instead of actual people.
Everyone focuses on the killer, especially when they leave a wealth of media and writing behind for people to analyze.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
Yeah I got you, sorry if that came across as rude, I didn't mean it that way. I just think it's probably a good thing that the media isn't all over the victims right now. It's a nice sentiment but I can't imagine how it would work in reality.
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