Yup. That and the Aston Martin Vantage Volante. As fruits go, boy that fucker tastes sweet.
We didn't invent the language just for you to 'lol' about like some floppy necked cretin. Speak properly.
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Can we be proud of the British Empire?
- Thread starter TCRS
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Hahahahahahaha
Damerman
Member
Lol.
As far as general opinions go, i'll just have to revel in the fact that yours in a dying breed.
PeskyToaster
Member
Someone could be part of new triumphs and tragedies though. There could be a poster on GAF right now with the charisma and drive to pull the British Empire out of the rubble and restore it to its rightful glory.
You keep telling yourself that sunshine. You can turn Edward Elgar down, but you'll never mute him. You can stifle a chuckle at Blackadder, but you'll never stop the corners of your mouth rising in joyful betrayal. You can turn your eye from the E Type Jaguar, but your ear will still stir to the sound of her exhaust.
My spirit and that of my kin will live on long after you crawl shamefully into a hole and give up.
I would definitely agree with you there, but that is not the same as motivation.
Going by my last post, I think you can guess that the stresses that were breaking China apart had a lot to do with economics. Many of the revolts that just destroyed 19th Century China had a lot to do with rural poverty. While China was quite wealthy in the 18th Century, by the 19th century, there were too many people, too few land, and no new technological invotions to spur agricultural surpluses. Consequently, that lead to rural poverty, displaced people and a general decline in the whole economic system since in pre-industrial economies agriculture is essentially the economy. And that means the urban, and commercial economy will decline as well since those sectors are dependent on the agricultural sector.
This was further exacerbated by social tensions caused by the Manchu ruling class, and civil service examination candidates. educating and training someone for the civil service examination was stupidly expensive and took a lot of work and dedication. The problem is, is that Manchu's were able to take a very easy examination to get government posts while the amount of government posts stayed the same/declined. This meant that it was far more difficult for all those elites to get a position while it bred jealously and hatred for the Manchus who had an easy time. Not to mention that the government was more and more poorly run due to the lack of government officials.
As you can see, the peasants couldnt afford British manufactured goods and the elite families were spending all of their money on training their sons for the civil service examinations. And that was by no means was a sure thing either. However, that was the road to prestige, status and monetary success, so famiilies put all their effort into it. Why then, would they waste money on western clothes and goods when it was neither prestigious or seem all that useful for the advancement of their family? Does a clock better prepare someone for the civil service examination? No, in China, they were fascinating curious that the wealthy bought, which can be best seen in my previous post about the Qianlong Emperor.
What that all means is that there was no market for British goods. Britain, in their ignorance and arrogance could not understand this, thought that China was demanding silver as some devious scheme. There was no scheme though. There was no demand from the government to only accept silver. The Hong merchants in Hong Kong only accepted silver because that was the only thing the British brought with them that China wanted. And if you remember why the Qing Emperors regulated the trade much more than the East Asian trade from another post of mine, then I think you will understand that it really wasnt about unfair trade practices to get one over on the British, but legitimate security concerns due to British traders actions in China and Britain's actions in India.
Going by the societal misery and dissafection in the above paragraphs, peasants were poor, the elite's path to success was expensive and being increasingly reduced, and conflicts between different groups, that there was a market for Opium. The Hong merchants, officials, and everyone else enthusiasm for the trade should make it clear how ineffective the Chinese government was at limiting even an illegal trade. What this means is that if there was actually a market for British goods besides opium, then no matter what unfair trade practices, the merchants, the local officials (bribes), and the Chinese populace would have found a way to enrich themselves with the British trade.
All of that was a great deal of economics and related to economy, but hopefully I have demonstrated in my previous post that the moralist faction in the Qing government and the Daogong Emperor equally or largely put the crackdown on Opium because opium was seen to be a morally degenerative drug, China was declining, and therefore, the moralists and Daogong came to the conclusion that Opium was the root of all of their problems.
The last true Empire, that did a lot of good and a lot of bad just like every other major world power over the existence of humanity.
There's nothing wrong with being proud of your heritage so long as you acknowledge it's not perfect. I'm proud to be Canadian but we certainly did our own share of horrible things, and I don't let Canada define who I am as a person or how I think as an individual.
There's nothing wrong with being proud of your heritage so long as you acknowledge it's not perfect. I'm proud to be Canadian but we certainly did our own share of horrible things, and I don't let Canada define who I am as a person or how I think as an individual.
Marc
Member
To get to that stage though many horrible things were done, many of it completely pointless in the name of progress. Things like the Guatemala syphilis experiment, the Tuskegee Experiments, Agent Orange and Unit 731 are of equal disgust to empire building atrocities.
If the British Empire had succeeded in ruling the world as one, that means no more flags, no more division, eventually working together for a common goal, no more currencies and eventually a lack of requirement for capitalism. That is essentially the goal, ideally through political union (although so far it seems this doesn't work very well either), to get the human race working together in peace in the same direction. Or a common enemy to unite everyone again to almost permanence. Anyway, that didn't happen and who really knows what the overall objective was. But culturally and language wise it has unified many areas and has helped in better understanding between peoples. If those things hadn't happened would we be in our current 'peaceful' time? Who knows, its almost impossible to predict. If the British empire didn't exist, likely something else would fill the vacuum. Could have been worse or better, don't think it is that straight forward.
Spaced Harrier
Member
Exactly hence the irony.
Had 1960's England, been a bit more welcoming to the Irish, my dad may have ended up staying.
And where would I be now? In Sarf Landaan voting Ukip and watching top gear?
My god.
Creating a unified world of equals was definitely not the goal of colonialism, it meant to rape and pillage the less developed world and it did a really good job at that. I'm not saying its impossible that they British would've changed their mind at some point, but they fought, brutally, to keep colonies oppressed and exploited up through fucking 1950s.
And while I agree that speculative history is difficult and you can never know what would've happen, I still feel pretty damn confidence in saying that decolonization was a good thing.
As a blonde-haired blue-eyed German, I am incredibly proud of my people and the great strides we have made throughout history, particularly the insane rebound after WWI. What other country could go from being broke as hell to taking on the entire western world in twenty years? And the technological advances we made, the medical advances (e.g. hypothermia treatment), the great minds we produced (Einstein is German) - nothing can compare. I'm so proud to be able to raise my family in this great nation with its awe-inspiring history full of incredible people. We stand tall amongst giants!
Ivan Amiibo
Banned
prob more blood on their hands than the U.S.
thehypocrite
Member
Ask all the Mau Mau that were killed and tortured to determine if the actions of the empire are something to be proud.
Z..
Member
I'd be ashamed. I'm ashamed of my nation's colonialist past. Can I be ashamed for britain if I live here or do I have to be a citizen?
I can't understand when someone says they're proud of stuff like this. How can you feel pride about something towards which you were completely inconsequential? German has achieved alot in a very short span of time, but how can YOU be proud when you contributed nothing towards that? I'm not trying to start a fight, I literally don't understand how that works.
They also set up an economic system in many of the colonies where the sole economic purpose was to extract natural resources, then have that shipped off to Britain where they would then make manufacturers and sell it to its colonies and the rest of the world.
I think that is one of the reasons why the Carribean, South America and Africa are economically further behind than places like America and China. Due to entrenched interests, I think it is very very hard to remove or weaken that sort of exploitative and dependent economic system and I think the consequences of that are still with us today.
I think all Americans should be happy that the British deemed the Northern US Colonies a poor lot, worthy of no real great concern.
How would one go about that then?
As an aside, we were pretty fucking psychotic if we were torturing people after we'd killed them. That's just excessive.
You've done well, indeed.
Should I be offended that you're kinda calling me a
blonde?
Even decolonization is a point where we can still be embarrassed at the actions of the British Empire, given it made damn sure to position itself to take advantage of the process.
...
There we go.
Britain is steeped in facism and nationalism in general, certain facets of our culture can be likened to Nazi germany in many ways. Like I said though, that mentality is dying. I can't be referencing this book enough recently, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Better_Angels_of_Our_Nature. See the only thing that will ever crawl into a hole is a narrow mindset, the world becomes more forgiving and open minded as times goes on, that's the natural state of affairs.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
only because it birthed the united states
thehypocrite
Member
Didn't meant in that order, however you can still ask some of the ones that were tortured and survived the concentration camps in which they were placed by your glorious empire.
http://www.radiolab.org/story/mau-mau/
You can be proud of the British Empire as long as you are simultaneously ashamed for letting it all slip through your fingers for no good reason.
You lost India to a guy who made salt. His military strategy was, if shot at, to be shot.
You lost three-quarters of Ireland (which, seriously, was right next door) to a bunch of Celts declaring their own country INSIDE YOUR COUNTRY and making it stick. They defeated your police force by shunning them out of existence.
You lost the Thirteen Colonies because General Howe attacked the wrong city and let half your army be captured by a bunch of colonials.
Hell, you lost the Dual Monarchy to an illiterate French peasant girl who thought saints were talking to her.
You're about to lose Scotland after four hundred years of union. At this rate, I wouldn't buy any property in Wales.
The real question is, what the hell happened to the British Empire? It was RIGHT THERE!
P.S. I was going to include Canada but actually I still can't figure out how you lost Canada. Why don't you guys rule Canada any more? What happened there?
You lost India to a guy who made salt. His military strategy was, if shot at, to be shot.
You lost three-quarters of Ireland (which, seriously, was right next door) to a bunch of Celts declaring their own country INSIDE YOUR COUNTRY and making it stick. They defeated your police force by shunning them out of existence.
You lost the Thirteen Colonies because General Howe attacked the wrong city and let half your army be captured by a bunch of colonials.
Hell, you lost the Dual Monarchy to an illiterate French peasant girl who thought saints were talking to her.
You're about to lose Scotland after four hundred years of union. At this rate, I wouldn't buy any property in Wales.
The real question is, what the hell happened to the British Empire? It was RIGHT THERE!
P.S. I was going to include Canada but actually I still can't figure out how you lost Canada. Why don't you guys rule Canada any more? What happened there?
I'm British. I guess I could be proud. But that would make me an asshole.
Abolishing the slave trade. Britains were unique in their fervency towards abolitionism.
Spreading representative and constitutional democracy. The greatest system of government devised by man, so much so that almost every single other nation state has emulated it or at least has tried giving the impression of emulating it. If not, there are people inside these countries who wish to emulate it.
I think it's pretty reasonable to be proud of the British Empire, yes, they did some dastardly things...and we shouldn't bury that, but that should not forget that they did make the world a better place for a hell of a lot of people.
Spreading representative and constitutional democracy. The greatest system of government devised by man, so much so that almost every single other nation state has emulated it or at least has tried giving the impression of emulating it. If not, there are people inside these countries who wish to emulate it.
I think it's pretty reasonable to be proud of the British Empire, yes, they did some dastardly things...and we shouldn't bury that, but that should not forget that they did make the world a better place for a hell of a lot of people.
To the OP: It's a remarkable achievement. It is likely the last Empire we will see, at least in our lifetimes. But better "empires" of the future require an understanding that exploiting people like that is not an acceptable way of doing things.
I highly suggest you read a bit about Imperialism Without Colonies. The current form of incorporating countries into the world economy is drastically different than British Colonialism and Empire.
I get that you're just wanting to rant against the US. However, looking at it in this light does a huge disservice to the conversation, whether you want to critique or defend the US's role as world hegemon.
I highly suggest you read a bit about Imperialism Without Colonies. The current form of incorporating countries into the world economy is drastically different than British Colonialism and Empire.
They also made it worse for a hell of a lot of people.
Bwahahaha. No. Britain only spread constitutional democracy to its white colonies. I'll give you the slave trade, but the British were fervent slavers long before they sought to abolish it, and were actually the ones smuggling slaves into Spain's colonial empire for profit. Come to think of it, I've never figured out why the Spanish never had any slaving outposts of their own and instead outsourced that to others.
Maybe a bit off the question being asked, but I think Tolkien had it right, "Love the country; hate the government". Without a doubt Britons should take a critical eye to the butchery that marks their past, but at the same time they have a vibrant modern culture that probably wouldn't exist otherwise. I'm not saying the means have justified the ends only that they should appreciate what they have now, but understand that it came at a price.
RustyNails
Member
They didn't...they created railroads to transport raw materials out of the colony and to Britain. They created the infrastructure as a means to exploit the country, not out of their kind hearts for the natives. They did not imagine themselves leaving the colonies. We can start forgiving the British Empire as soon as they start returning the ex-colonies their prized jewels.
India is a white colony? Same with Bermuda or Singapore?
I'm pretty sure if you asked Indians if they'd prefer the Koh-i-Noor over parliamentary democracy and constitutional government, I'm pretty sure I know which way they'd go. I'm not saying the British Empire was perfect, but this idea that they were only a force for evil in the world is ridiculous and silly.
Exactly before African borders were drawn up people for the most part lived peacefully but then they had to go dividing up Africa with the French and Dutch and create geographical borders that divided tribes and forced groups to come together who never would have formed a nation together before. Not only that but usually one of the two tribes would be ranked lower than the other for economic reasons (i.e. house slaves vs field slaves).
Then you had the greatest transfer of wealth in human history the relocation of raw materials, resources, and human capital (slaves) from the African continent to Europe.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
Peacefully kidnapping 8 year old boys, tying them down to tables, slicing off their penis and testicles, forcing a bamboo catheter into their destroyed genitals and submerging them in sand up to their necks. The 1 in 10 who survived this peaceful process then were sold into slavery. Oh if only we could go back to such times.
This caused the Rwandan genocide in 1994. Over the course of 100 days, a large portion of the Hutu population picked up machetes and slaughtered 800,000 Tutsis and Hutus that sympathised with them while the international community watched with indifference. The rivers of blood and massive piles of corpses were observed by satellites in space.
Neither India or Singapore have had a smooth ride to true representative democracy, what with India's chronic corruption problems or Singapore being ruled by a strongman for 20 years. More telling is Britain's failure to establish good government in any of their non-white dominions. Or how about how Britain destroyed any kind of industrialization by India? Just look at what they did to destroy competition for Britain's own textile industry:
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
I don't think I've ever heard "imperialist" as a compliment
King Tubby
Member
...yes? Your point is?
scotcheggz
Member
I'm gonna go back and read the thread, I've done some serious studying of the British Empire since subjects based in and around it probably made up 80% of my undergrad degree, but I just wanted to say real quick that if anyone is interested, BBC Radio did a really good history of the empire. Its 90 parts, 15 minutes long each part, called "this sceptered isle".
If you wanna read a good academic book, try "Imperialism and Orientalism - Harlow & Carter". It's a key source for cultural and colonial studies.
In short, BE did some good, lots bad. Even with many of the facts, you could probably argue about it forever. As for me, I'm not proud, from certain standpoints it was remarkable, but it's a dark history, nothing to wave a flag for and in my opinion, people that do are probably woefully uneducated on the subject.
If you wanna read a good academic book, try "Imperialism and Orientalism - Harlow & Carter". It's a key source for cultural and colonial studies.
In short, BE did some good, lots bad. Even with many of the facts, you could probably argue about it forever. As for me, I'm not proud, from certain standpoints it was remarkable, but it's a dark history, nothing to wave a flag for and in my opinion, people that do are probably woefully uneducated on the subject.
Lord Morairty007
Member
She had nine children which all married into royal families in Continental Europe. She had 87 great-grandchildren.Her most famous grandchild is the last Emperor of Germany who was Wilhelm II,
She is an ancestor to about 7 monarchies now here is a list.
"nearly all European reigning kings and queens today are most closely related through their descent from Victoria, Christian or both"
1.Belgium: Philippe & Queen Mathilde
2. Denmark: Margrethe II & Prince Consort Henrik
3. Norway: Harald V & Queen Sonja
4. Spain: Felipe VI & Queen Letizia
5. Sweden: Carl XVI Gustaf & Queen Silvia
6. United Kingdom: Elizabeth II & Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh
7. Netherlands: Willem-Alexander & Queen Máxima
Cameron122
Member
I can't hear you over the sound of Imperator Augustus Claudius making Britain into a province
No they haven't. It's of course difficult to establish a system of liberty and law and order where only warlordism and absolute power reigned supreme. That doesn't mean India isn't better off now as an imperfect representative democracy than it was under their old system.
I'm pretty happy in saying that I don't think any other contry has contributed more to world happiness than GB. This is of course understanding that they weren't Angels and did some atrocious things as well. I'm also perfectly happy saying that I think former british colonies have done much better than former Dutch or former French colonies.
oh of course, i guess we can all agree that many and many dreadful and bloody atrocities have been committed by the Empire and surely they're no reason to be cheerful about, but then again, name me a country that hasn't. Still, I believe it has sod to do with the fact one can be proud of his own country regardless
What am I reading. The British contributing the most to world happiness?
Maybe the country that contributed most to people being exploited or ruined by greed.
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