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[Inuhanyou]

Why not? I hope you're right obviously, but considering we have a subscription for PS3 games on PS4 and PS2 compatibility died on PS3 consoles in less than a year, not sure I'm feeling this.

Because PS3 is a completely different architecture from PS4(with the Cell, SPU, RSX, and split RAM combo) and could not be possibly emulated on the machine natively unless they actually put cell into the PS4, which was never happening. The console does not have the processing hardware to emulate it, no PC does at this point either.

PLaystation now was their way of expanding their library while also providing some sort of stop gap measure for playing PS3 games without PS3.

PS4 with X86 and a direct architecture timeline from here to 2019 with AMD means they can easily provide BC if they prioritize simulating the base hardware.

The Pro is mostly not native 4k and it doesn't break backwards compatibility with the PS4. An 8 TF system as the person I responded to quoted wouldn't really be good for a generational transition, because the 6-8 TF range is about where you need to be to give the games we're already getting now in native 4k. Ergo, you'd want a lot more than that.

We aren't getting native 4K games AND next generation graphics next gen no matter what happens. You should prepare for that.

It will be one or the other. I don't expect 8tflops btw, i expect 10.

Pro is a 4K compliant machine that is a half gap measure. It meets expectations.

 

[Tagyhag]

He's being honest. Just like Carmack, when it comes to technology, Cerny isn't a PR person. He tells it like it is, which is great.

I still think people are going to try to downplay the differences between reprojected and native 4K but it is what it is.

 

[scoobs]

LMAO

Sony gonna go after him

But then again it's PS4 Pro and not 4K so I guess they won't be that mad

He's just being honest, its true.

 

[Tagg9]

Not sure why people think this is a knock against Sony. If anything, Cerny is taking a shot at Scorpio by saying 6TF won't be enough to push native 4K.

 

[RichiRamjag]

Yeah and that's with us running top tier quad or higher core i7s lol not shitty AMD mobile processors.

I'd like more than just a 4k render, but the balls to graphically back it up with good cpu power for ai and everything else.

That's what it really comes down to. A lot of these major limitations come from these shitty cpus they toss in there.

 

[Inuhanyou]

That's what it really comes down to. A lot of these major limitations come from these shitty cpus they toss in there.

Which is why Zen is so important, and why MS will be in the same boat next year if they don't have it in there.

Then again, these are iterative units right? So maybe they don't need Zen if they are basing their efforts on PS4 and XB1 up ports

 

[Tallshortman]

Why would they do that? That's terrible advertising.

Why would they avoid intentionally misleading consumers? Is this a real question? The backlash would be immense if they hyped up native 4K games and then it came out that they were lying.

 

[Speely]

I like seeing notable figures speak this matter-of-factly about tech. Good on him. Better to encourage a more reasonable set of expectations and then aim to deliver at above them than to just blow smoke and hope it blinds folks long enough to buy something.

 

[Hasney]

Eh wouldn't this . more or less put more spotlight on Scorpio since they seem to boast the true 4k experience

No, because that's 6 terraflop. He's more or less throwing shade.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

We aren't getting native 4K games AND next generation graphics next gen no matter what happens. You should prepare for that.

It depends when they want to ship it. If the PS5 is supposed to come out in 2018, then yeah. If they push it to 2020 thanks to the extra life they're getting via mid-gen updates, then it becomes a lot more feasible to imagine a 16+ TF system shipping.

 

[Guymelef]

Flops are the new bits.

 

[GameAddict411]

I think he is referring to just rendering at that resolution. If we want a big jump in graphics, we need twice as much processing power.

 

[Crayon]

Flops are the new bits.

Huge, floppy bits.

 

[EloquentM]

A couple of my casual gaming friends think the pro is gonna be 4K fwiw. Anecdotal sure but I don't think it's beyond belief that stuff was lost in translation with regards to Sony's messaging.

 

[RichiRamjag]

Which is why Zen is so important, and why MS will be in the same boat next year if they don't have it in there.

Then again, these are iterative units right? So maybe they don't need Zen if they are basing their efforts on PS4 and XB1 up ports

Possibly. With everything tied to xb1, that may be the route they go. That's my big concern. With everything being tied to the older systems, do you really need big sweeping upgrades when the newer consoles don't get exclusives? If MS goes all the way, I assume that the Scorpio would just move into the next gen as a base model possibly.

 

[Inuhanyou]

It depends when they want to ship it. If the PS5 is supposed to come out in 2018, then yeah. If they push it to 2020 thanks to the extra life they're getting via mid-gen updates, then it becomes a lot more feasible to imagine a 16+ TF system shipping.

I expect the next Playstation to ship in 2019.

I don't think, regardless of where the desktop equivalents are at, that anything more than a 10tflop machine including both 16GB of high capacity and high bandwidth RAM with a console variant of Zen can ship at 399.

They still have to be reasonable with their components after all.

 

[Kibbles]

I agree, and I hope Scorpio doesn't shoot for 4k. I'd rather have (for example BF1) at 1440p/Ultra settings/60fps than 4k30 or 4k/low/60

 

[Astral Dog]

But i thought they said PSPro is 4K?

Spoiler

Anyways this is good, use those TF for graphics

 

[Inuhanyou]

Possibly. With everything tied to xb1, that may be the route they go. That's my big concern. With everything being tied to the older systems, do you really need big sweeping upgrades when the newer consoles don't get exclusives? If MS goes all the way, I assume that the Scorpio would just move into the next gen as a base model possibly.

I say go for it personally. I don't care what MS does, they have ceded any standards to the wind, but Sony sent a clear statement with their words and actions that the Pro is obviously an optional unit tied down by the earlier HW, and their components they used also send this message.

PS5 with stronger and more radical changes will prove to be where their full priority went, since its a full new numbered unit.

 

[RichiRamjag]

But i thought they said PSPro is 4K?

Spoiler

Anyways this is good, use those TF for graphics

When they announced it, they said it wasn't and provided the reasons why. They then explained how they achieve results similar to 4K using checkerboard.

 

[onQ123]

Yep Cerny is on Neogaf reading my posts before he do presentations & interviews

Wouldn't Neo mode have a new pipeline that's not attached to the PS4 pipeline?

PS4 mode 1.84TF of FP32 operations vs Neo mode 4.2TF of FP32 or 8.4TF of FP16 operations.


Neo mode has a goal of reaching 4K so it could make sacrifices in precision to get there.





At the end of the day it's going to be PS4/Xbox One games in 4K , for Sony it would have taken about 7.5TF to brute force a 1080P PS4 game to a 4K PS4 game while Microsoft can get 1080P Xbox One games in 4K with just over 5TF .


So unless Sony has a plan in place that would get them a 8TF GPU they might as well stick to their plan for cheap 4K..

By the way he don't mean 8TF is the minimum for native 4K all together but it would be the minimum if they wanted to brute force the full range of PS4 games to native 4K.

But you all can run with these words like chickens with your heads cut off.

 

[Ascenion]

Are these AMD or Nvidia TFlops? I'm assuming AMD, while quietly hoping the PS5 goes Nvidia since by using x86 it should be feasible. And Sony should be over the bad blood.

 

[Caio]

Not sure why people think this is a knock against Sony. If anything, Cerny is taking a shot at Scorpio by saying 6TF won't be enough to push native 4K.

And it's true! Native 4K is too much for a 6TF GPU, unless you want to sacrify frame rate, details, geometry and effects just to say "I'm going Native 4K", and games would look not as good as PS4 PRO with 4K super-sampling. PS5 will be the machine for real Native 4K, and the next Next XBox, which can't be Scorpio.

 

[PLASTICA-MAN]

Very interesting.
I will repost this from the other thread:

When the PS5 releases (if it gets released late), will we live the same scenario of these days where:
- 4K native will be the standard for PS5 games but some demanding games won't be native 4K exactly how the PS4 is doing these days with 1080p as standard while some demanding games are 900p.

- We will get a PS5 PRO that allows higher res than native 4K, or let'ts call it 8K with checkerboard and some remastered PS4 games and some indies will be 8K native (seeing that 8K TVS are already being prepared) similar to PS4 PRO current situation.

What do you think? You will say this is impossible but who ever imagined that one day a console could reach 4K (whether natively or upscaled) at the time of the PS4, let alone at the time of PS3. Keep in mind hardware components evolve exponentially following Moore's law.

 

[texhnolyze]

Until we can get 1080, 60fps on the regular they can keep 4k.

That's what I'm hoping that not only the PS4P to achieve, but also Scorpio. To some extent maybe NS.

1080p 60FPS standards on console first, then think about a res boost!

By looking at how both Sony and Microsoft boasting their upgraded consoles' GPU power while neglecting the CPU upgrade shows that we won't get that standard anytime soon. While there's no info on Scorpio CPU yet, I highly doubt they can afford a much better CPU with with that pricey 6TF GPU. Anyway, we can already see the huge gap of difference between Pro's CPU and GPU upgrade. GPU get more than 200% power up, while the CPU only get what, 30% boost? That's more than enough evidence of how they're treating their new consoles. Graphics > performance.

 

[Spyder_Monkey]

That's your opinion man. Sold it to me, but I'm sure it may not appeal to everyone. I still don't get why lying about it via advertising is a better move.

Of course you do, you're on NeoGaf, where every member thinks teraflops are this magical thing that makes games look better and not actual effort that goes into taking advantage of the platform the best the development team can do.

To me, the PS4 Pro is a pointless product for both new and existing PS4 users. It's both a new console, but it's not. It can do 4K, but it also kind of can't. Sony made it as a response to the PC market, yet it's not even close to what PC users want and there's even more powerful hardware coming out within the next year. Oh hey, did you all like how sleek and small the original PS4 looked? Here's a big ugly box that weighs a ton. All the major first party releases are also releasing on the now cheaper PS4 and they still look great running on the base hardware and that's not going to change without Sony destroying the goodwill they built up over the past 3-5 years. And yet, it's with these half-measures that's making the PS4 Pro an uncompelling product.

Here's the thing, in the history of gaming, power alone never sells hardware, the software does. And yet it seems like Sony forgot that. Never once did they give an actual real reason to buy a PS4 Pro. They can't. Fact of the matter is you're getting the fundamentally same experience. And it seems like Sony forgot that. Remember how they stood guys like Jonathan Blow, Yu Suzuki, and Tim Schafer up on a pedestal and basically gave them a home to develop games on? Remember how they explained they made a deliberate choice to use more standard parts to make game development easier? Remember the year of dreams? In watching Mark Cerny try to explain the benefits of HDR on regular sized televisions journalists could barely see and streamed in awful quality made me think Sony missed the point as to why the PS4 was a home run in the first place.

I could see why Gaf is in love with the PS4 Pro. But the marketing so far is just really bad especially considering how well Sony did the last time. It's not quite Wii U bad it's almost there. I'm not trying to convince you to not buy a PS4 Pro. Your money, your call. At the end of the day though this confusion as to weather or not the PS4 Pro is a 4K console is only hurting them and going against their messaging.

 

[etta]

4K/30 is more than doable at medium settings on a GTX 980, so...
Nice try?

 

[Renekton]

Are these AMD or Nvidia TFlops? I'm assuming AMD, while quietly hoping the PS5 goes Nvidia since by using x86 it should be feasible. And Sony should be over the bad blood.

Nvidia will rip Sony off with another overpriced SoC.

Nintendo will soon find out as well.

 

[dogen]

Are these AMD or Nvidia TFlops? I'm assuming AMD, while quietly hoping the PS5 goes Nvidia since by using x86 it should be feasible. And Sony should be over the bad blood.

They're the same thing. The whole Nvidia vs AMD flops just an innacurate simplification of how nvidia cards tend to perform better than AMD ones with equivalent compute power.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Are these AMD or Nvidia TFlops? I'm assuming AMD, while quietly hoping the PS5 goes Nvidia since by using x86 it should be feasible. And Sony should be over the bad blood.

The difference in the GPU architectures themselves would limit BC's success rate. So..no.

AMD has been a good partner to Sony and MS, why should they run to Nvidia now?

 

[SprachBrooks]

That's what I'm hoping that not only the PS4P to achieve, but also Scorpio. To some extent maybe NS.

1080p 60FPS standards on console first, then think about a res boost!

This will never happen. They'll always target a higher res when available.

 

[Nonoriri]

I expect the next Playstation to ship in 2019.

I don't think, regardless of where the desktop equivalents are at, that anything more than a 10tflop machine including both 16GB of high capacity and high bandwidth RAM with a console variant of Zen can ship at 399.

They still have to be reasonable with their components after all.

This is the 2016 version of "The PS4 will have 2GB of RAM" logic people had when speculating on the PS4 design in 2011-12

 

[Tripolygon]

4K/30 is more than doable at medium settings on a GTX 980, so...
Nice try?

Let me see if i can help you out.

Incidentally, he mentioned that his personal estimate is that rendering at native 4K across the board would require a minimum of 8 teraFLOPS of computing power

You know like a console that is designed to run every game at 4K, no checkerboard rendering, no big compromises in graphics fidelity.

If that doesn't help.

He's been developing games for some decades now. He's assisted in almost every Sony first party game. He's the lead system architect of PS Vita, PS4, PS4 Pro and I'll bet PS5.

So nice try?

 

[StrongBlackVine]

4K/30 is more than doable at medium settings on a GTX 980, so...
Nice try?

Etta or Mark Cerny. Who is more likely to know what they are talking about?

 

[The Argus]

The difference in the GPU architectures themselves would limit BC's success rate. So..no.

AMD has been a good partner to Sony and MS, why should they run to Nvidia now?

Probably for the same reason Nintendo went with Nvidia and not their long time partner (since the GameCube) AMD. $$$

 

[Inuhanyou]

4K/30 is more than doable at medium settings on a GTX 980, so...
Nice try?

I don't think he's referring to current gen gaming at medium settings at 30fps for certain when he says "4K gaming" in the sense he's talking about.

I really dislike how transparent you have been in most threads recently, quit it.

This is the 2016 version of "The PS4 will have 2GB of RAM" logic people had when speculating on the PS4 design in 2011-12

Hey, you can't blame me for being conservative if i'm wrong right? Then we are all pleasantly surprised. But i'm just looking at the realistic route.

 

[TheGreyHulk]

Are these AMD or Nvidia TFlops? I'm assuming AMD, while quietly hoping the PS5 goes Nvidia since by using x86 it should be feasible. And Sony should be over the bad blood.

Where does this nvidia vs amd tflops stuff come from?

I seriously want to know the logical answer behind this notion that nvidia flops > amd flops or vice versa.

They're all theoretical flops. Many things affect the ability for a chip to peform at a maximum level. Low mem bandwidth, not enough ROPs, shit architecture, drivers, etc, but I see this on gaf more and more about nvidia flops > amd. It makes no sense to me at all and ive been following pc tech since i was a kid. It's nonsens

*note: im speaking in general and my comment isnt directed at you specifically.


On topic. You can make 4k games with a ps4 pro or scorpio if you really wanted. 8 tflops is needed? Based on what criteria? What level of iq is the target?

I feel the chase for 4k is pointless right now. We need to focus on greater cpu power to enhance AI to take game design further rather than just keeping the same level iq at higher res. We gained a lot in gpu power this gen but we didnt make a big jump, if any at all, in cpu capabilities on console. Screw 4k.

 

[dogen]

By looking at how both Sony and Microsoft boasting their upgraded consoles' GPU power while neglecting the CPU upgrade shows that we won't get that standard anytime soon. While there's no info on Scorpio CPU yet, I highly doubt they can afford a much better CPU with with that pricey 6TF GPU. Anyway, we can already see the huge gap of difference between Pro's CPU and GPU upgrade. GPU get more than 200% power up, while the CPU only get what, 30% boost? That's more than enough evidence of how they're treating their new consoles. Graphics > performance.

60 fps is probably doable for most games(look at battlefront and doom). It's just easier to make a better looking game at 30 fps. It's also easier to market and sell that better looking 30 fps game.

A 30% overclock(or more for scorpio) will make it more achievable for developers that are aiming for 60.

 

[lupinko]

For cost effective and good power, since joining consoles, ATI/AMD have given the best performance when it matters most

- GameCube debatable vs Xbox NVIDIA gpu
- 360 GPU outclassed the gimped NVIDIA RSX, it allowed the 360 with the unified Ram to get the early mindshare of both devs and gamers
- PS4/Xbone give Sony and Microsoft instant profits and both don't need to hemorrhage money anymore, same applies to Pro/Scorpio(hopefully for the latter)
- WiiU gpu is pretty decent for what it is but that is more on Nintendo cheapening out since they wanted to focus on the gamepad

 

[Inuhanyou]

Probably for the same reason Nintendo went with Nvidia and not their long time partner (since the GameCube) AMD. $$$

Nintendo went to Nvidia because they had a lower power mobile design that could be both acceptable as a console and double as a powerful handheld, something AMD does not have.

Sony and MS have AMD because they want cheaper console APU oriented components that can be manufactured at an affordable and reasonable price.

 

[Trace]

Where does this nvidia vs amd tflops stuff come from?

I seriously want to know the logical answer behind this notion that nvidia flops > amd flops or vice versa.

They're all theoretical flops. Many things affect the ability for a chip to peform at a maximum level. Low mem bandwidth, not enough ROPs, shit architecture, drivers, etc, but I see this on gaf more and more about nvidia flops > amd. It makes no sense to me at all and ive been following pc tech since i was a kid. It's nonsens

*note: im speaking in general and my comment isnt directed at you specifically.


On topic. You can make 4k games with a ps4 pro or scorpio if you really wanted. 8 tflops is needed? Based on what criteria? What level of iq is the target?

I feel the chase for 4k is pointless right now. We need to focus on greater cpu power to enhance AI to take game design further rather than just keeping the same level iq at higher res. We gained a lot in gpu power this gen but we didnt make a big jump, if any at all, in cpu capabilities on console. Screw 4k.

AFAIK, the Nvidia teraflop does "more" than the equivalent AMD teraflop would.

Good article on the subject.

A good example of this is to compare Nvidia's GTX 1080 with its 9TF vs AMD's Radeon R9 Fury X with 8.6TF. Based on computational power alone, you'd expect these two graphics cards to offer broadly equivalent performance, but as the 4K benchmarks below demonstrate, the GTX 1080 isn't just a bit faster, it's a lot faster in all but one title we tested. Indeed, even the slower GTX 1070 - with a rated 6.5TF of power - can comfortably outperform Fury X in many games. Further, in terms of teraflops, the GTX 1070 even lags behind Nvidia's own Titan X (7TF) and again, it manages to match or even outperform it.

 

[Ascenion]

Nvidia will rip Sony off with another overpriced SoC.

Nintendo will soon find out as well.

So still bad blood.

They're the same thing. The whole Nvidia vs AMD flops just an innacurate simplification of how nvidia cards tend to perform better than AMD ones with equivalent compute power.

I didn't actually know this. Do you know the real reason for the performance differences then?

The difference in the GPU architectures themselves would limit BC's success rate. So..no.

AMD has been a good partner to Sony and MS, why should they run to Nvidia now?

Good to know then I guess. And yeah AMD has been good but my issue is both use them. Even with customizations both are on the same general pathway. There isn't a whole lot of difference. Scorpio's power is available to Sony and vice versa. Something about hat just bothers me. It takes away some of the surprise.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

There's always more benefits for RAM. More memory can be used to load entire worlds and characters on the fly instead of having to rely on pop-in.

Infinite ram would be ideal, but you have to think very hard about where you're going to make cost and complexity tradeoffs. GDDR5 memory is more expensive than DDR4, and we now have the GDDR5x and HBM2 standards, as well as the upcoming GDDR6 and HBM3 to contend with. Much higher bandwidth, but also more expensive technologies will be attractive from a performance perspective. The PS4 / XBO seem to be bandwidth constrained in some scenarios more than they are memory size constrained. And texture quality this generation has really been quite good.

The PS4 and XBO sacrificed CPU performance to a really high degree and I'd rather see them work on that then focus on putting a stupidly high amount of system memory in, which, frankly, we don't "need", especially not when the file sizes of games are already so close to the limits of physical media and data caps.

Also worth noting that the PS4 and XBO both represent a slowing in the pace of technological development. They achieved a "normal" ram bump and GPU power increase... but were very underwhelming on the CPU front and took 7-8 years to come out, instead of the usual 4-5. No reason to expect that we're going to get another 16x increase just based on that alone.

 

[wapplew]

Etta or Mark Cerny. Who is more likely to know what they are talking about?

Albert Penello and his Direct X tech team thou.

 

[Astral Dog]

I expect the next Playstation to ship in 2019.

I don't think, regardless of where the desktop equivalents are at, that anything more than a 10tflop machine including both 16GB of high capacity and high bandwidth RAM with a console variant of Zen can ship at 399.

They still have to be reasonable with their components after all.

that sounds too little for a new console generation

 

[farisr]

4K/30 is more than doable at medium settings on a GTX 980, so...
Nice try?

Yeah, NBA 2K17, Pro Evolution Soccer 2017, The Last Of Us Remastered and a bunch of others games run at native 4k on the Pro, nice try Cerny... wait...

 

[dogen]

So still bad blood.
I didn't actually know this. Do you know the real reason for the performance differences then?

Yeah, differences in performance in different areas. For example, AMD cards tend to be more bottlenecked by geometry processing.

 

[Inuhanyou]

that sounds too little for a new console generation

Reconfigure your expectations of a new console generation's power output. Silicon and computing power is slowing down until a newer standard can be reached and that's not going to happen in between now and PS5. Cost and heat are the main factors for everyone going forward.

For example, traditionally, Playstation consoles have had about 16x RAM over their previous family. Throw that multiplier nonsense out the window for PS5. expect double (16GB) or at the absolute most, slightly more then that(20).

That's just how things are in the current world. The GPU will at most be around 5 to 6 times more powerful, and the CPU..Zen will be the biggest seachange of them all, but not because of any new major technological breakthrough, but becasue someone decided to finally make a CPU architecture that was somewhat competitive with the major monopoly in intel price wise.

 

[texhnolyze]

60 fps is probably doable for most games(look at battlefront and doom). It's just easier to make a better looking game at 30 fps. It's also easier to market and sell that better looking 30 fps game.

A 30% overclock(or more for scorpio) will make it more achievable for developers that are aiming for 60.

Don't FPS games always been 60fps (or targetting at) since the last gen? There's also resolution compromise to reach 60fps on current-gen 60fps games like CoD & Battlefield, even Doom. They go lower than native 1080p with dynamic resolution. I may be off, as I don't really follow FPS games these days.

 

[TheGreyHulk]

AFAIK, the Nvidia teraflop does "more" than the equivalent AMD teraflop would.

Good article on the subject.

It's not that NV flops are "doing more". It's just simply that theoretical flops are just that, theoretical. They're they theoretical max a chip can perform at. In reality, you're never going to reach theo max. Inefficiencies in architectural design and other things will always hinder performance.

Nvidias recent architectures are very strong and efficient, but it doesn't equate to their flops being better in general vs amd. It just means that chip is a good chip and peforms great.