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Mark Cerny thinks 8TF is the minimum for native 4K gaming
- Thread starter Omnistalgic
- Start date
It's funny, how people spin this message, because this sounds much more like damage control of Sony.
If you followed the PlayStation Pro conference and the media output after that, then people perception was, that the PS4Pro had a focus on 4k. Now the Pro sound like an expensive pre-patch. If you want games with a constant and better framerate and maybe 1080 (or 4k), buy the Pro. It's not the developers fault, if they can't create a better or constant graphical output, if you don't want to pay more for your console.
The Pro has a very unclear message.
Sanctuary
Member
You wouldn't believe how many people I had to correct about the amount of native 1080p games there actually were on the last gen systems. The back of the cases deceived more than not. I don't see this being much different, whether or not there's actually any intent to deceive or not. People are going to remain confused.
PodcastFips
Member
Damage control? The main focus was to enable 4K content which is a good move to finally leap into the next TV generation. There is plenty of 4K media, even native 4K games and checkerboarded 4K games which, according to all media outlets so far, look outstanding and almost like true 4K.
Nothing else was advertised.
I don't think that's quite what Cerny is saying.
Most AAA games on Pro will be able to hit 1800p with comparable(or semi reduced) graphical fidelity of PS4 and checkerboard from there. THat's already almost to 4K.
Scorpio will be able to run plenty of current AAA titles at semi comparable levels to XB1 graphical fidelity at 4K.
Cerny is saying that games that are basically always able to hit 4K no matter what, and at high end settings would take theoretically that kind of horsepower.
Black Mantis
Member
They've been a bit more specific about this recently, and have said that all 1st party Scorpio launch titles will be aiming for native 4k.
Caayn
Member
Don't waste power on (mostly) power hungry ultra settings. Using a mix of high and ultra I can get 4K/60fps on most (incl. new) games on my GTX 1070. That's still higher than the average medium/high settings consoles use.
It just comes down to when they release it.
Sony (and Microsoft) can just build available chips into theirs systems and giving a fixed price point the longer they wait the more TFlops they will deliver.
It´s quiet clear. Their first party games mostly run at 1080p => So bumping this to 4K when you go from 1,4 TF to 6 TF should be easy.
3rd party games which are mostly 900p will be different.
I Stalk Alone
Member
Anyone got any duct tape? 2 ps4pros should about do it.
I don't disagree. Sony may wait until 2020 to get the maximum boost that they can with modern technology at that time
And now we know the PS5 target.
In all seriousness, he's not wrong about 4K. In order to do it across the board aka in every game regardless of the amount of trees and foliage and textures and NPC count, you're going to need a beefy system that won't need to make sacrifices to hit the resolution. The PS4 Pro can do native 4K but not across every game, and to be fair, at no point has Sony claimed they'll do native 4K in every game and or presented checkerboard rendering as native 4K. They've done a surprisingly good job of not shooting themselves in the foot with their Pro messaging.
With that said, it's obvious that Cerny is speaking from the perspective of "This is the number we'll need to hit once it becomes affordable" and not from the perspective of "It isn't affordable and it won't be affordable anytime soon so buy a PS4 Pro on November 10th". It's easy to assume that Cerny is taking a dig at Microsoft, but he doesn't and has never come across as a guy who enjoys starting hashtag wars and creating Twitter listicles with checked boxes. For better or for worse, he's Kutaragi with an off-the-shelf approach to hardware. Also, it's important to note that the specs for the Scorpio could change for the better (i.e. Turn into an 8TF or higher system), so I assume a guy like Cerny -- a guy with an incredibly strong background in tech -- is more than aware of how a new system can be a moving target, so he knows that it's not wise to take shots at a new system before or even after its release.
Assuming the PS5 will happen, I would wager that Cerny will play a big role in its development and on top of that, it's safe to assume Sony will want the system to target nothing less than twice the performance of the Pro. It's going to come down to price, and I think in 3 years time, the PS5 could easily be an affordable 8TF or 12TF system. I, for one, am very excited about what the next round of consoles will look like. Will they even ship with disc drives? Only time will tell.
In all seriousness, he's not wrong about 4K. In order to do it across the board aka in every game regardless of the amount of trees and foliage and textures and NPC count, you're going to need a beefy system that won't need to make sacrifices to hit the resolution. The PS4 Pro can do native 4K but not across every game, and to be fair, at no point has Sony claimed they'll do native 4K in every game and or presented checkerboard rendering as native 4K. They've done a surprisingly good job of not shooting themselves in the foot with their Pro messaging.
With that said, it's obvious that Cerny is speaking from the perspective of "This is the number we'll need to hit once it becomes affordable" and not from the perspective of "It isn't affordable and it won't be affordable anytime soon so buy a PS4 Pro on November 10th". It's easy to assume that Cerny is taking a dig at Microsoft, but he doesn't and has never come across as a guy who enjoys starting hashtag wars and creating Twitter listicles with checked boxes. For better or for worse, he's Kutaragi with an off-the-shelf approach to hardware. Also, it's important to note that the specs for the Scorpio could change for the better (i.e. Turn into an 8TF or higher system), so I assume a guy like Cerny -- a guy with an incredibly strong background in tech -- is more than aware of how a new system can be a moving target, so he knows that it's not wise to take shots at a new system before or even after its release.
Assuming the PS5 will happen, I would wager that Cerny will play a big role in its development and on top of that, it's safe to assume Sony will want the system to target nothing less than twice the performance of the Pro. It's going to come down to price, and I think in 3 years time, the PS5 could easily be an affordable 8TF or 12TF system. I, for one, am very excited about what the next round of consoles will look like. Will they even ship with disc drives? Only time will tell.
{insert code here}
Member
8TF PS4 PRO PLUS confirmed. Hold off on your Pro purchases people the Pro + is coming!
/s
/s
Risk Breaker
Member
So if they do the PR thing of saying PS4 Pro looks almost like 4K*, "you know every game will be output at 4K right?" kind of thing, that's lying, arrogant Sony.
Be honest and say 8+TF are needed for proper 4k gaming, then it's all like "lol sony good job at advertising your own console lololol".
He's just saying the truth. The Pro isn't any better or worse depending on what Cerny/Sony say. It's a 4.2 TF machine with a 30% faster CPU and RAM and some extra RAM. It obviously can't/won't run games at 4k as a standard. And it will obviously run games much better than a regular PS4.
Stilton Disco
Member
This is probably pretty accurate. I certainly trust Cerny to know what he's talking about, and see enough tech analyses' showing even the 1070, 1080 and Titan X struggle with 4K to varying degrees that it's likely accurate for getting current gen console quality AAA games running at a locked resolution.
I suspect the whole Scorpio marketing spiel of 'true native 4K gaming!!!' Is going to be purely applying to first party titles that have been consistently hitting 1080p on the base model for a while now. The 4x power boost allowing 4x the resolution, but everything else being the same, just makes sense.
If it's not 1080p already on the XO, don't expect it to be 4K on Scorpio, basically. We'll not be seeing native 4K versions of Battleifield 1 and it's like unless they dial back the effects even further with just 6Tflops to work with.
This is also why I'm not bothering with a 4K TV until next gen. Neither the games nor hardware (nor wider media either really) are really there to fully take advantage of it.
I suspect the whole Scorpio marketing spiel of 'true native 4K gaming!!!' Is going to be purely applying to first party titles that have been consistently hitting 1080p on the base model for a while now. The 4x power boost allowing 4x the resolution, but everything else being the same, just makes sense.
If it's not 1080p already on the XO, don't expect it to be 4K on Scorpio, basically. We'll not be seeing native 4K versions of Battleifield 1 and it's like unless they dial back the effects even further with just 6Tflops to work with.
This is also why I'm not bothering with a 4K TV until next gen. Neither the games nor hardware (nor wider media either really) are really there to fully take advantage of it.
panda-zebra
Banned
Speaking of how funny this spin is...
Really? Do tell us more.
It has. And it employs some fairly nifty techniques to make it possible.
Or maybe you're just taking comments out of context and allowing your feels to guide your commentary?
If you're still confused as to what ps4 pro is, and I know there is real concern here from certain quarters, you only have to go digest Richard Leadbetter's words on his experiences so far with his hands-on with the machine and the interview with Cerny as to the factors that resulted in the ps4 pro hardware design.
You can certainly do 60fps, but it comes with a cost, take battlefront vs battlefield for example as they run on the same engine it's quite good comparison. Why does battlefront run so much better? Well the multiplayer is restricted to less players and battlefront doesn't have as much physics, particle effects or destruction like battlefield has(these are very taxing on cpu) so we get even sub 30 drops on current consoles, with pro you might stay north of 30 but locked 60 is most likely a pipe dream. What comes to open world games there's currently one game that runs on 60 and that's MGSV and compared to other games the world is empty and stripped of detail, so again the price has been paid.
Bitch Pudding
Member
If the power of the console theoretically doubles every two years, a 2019 PS5 would have round about 15 TF, if we use OG PS4 as a start:
2013: 1,84 TF
2015: 3,68 TF
2017: 7,36 TF
2019: 14,72 TF
But, Moore's Law doesn't apply anymore. They won't manage that, not under the premise of offering a non-subsidized console for $399. PS4 Pro for example already couln't keep up with that speed.
I's say a console with round about 10-12 TF in 2019 sounds about right.
Hm, not that I read you comment about 2020, okay, then of course 14-16 isn't out the realms of possibilities.
I am really confused and Sony's advertising doesn't really help. I actually was interested in the Pro and even missed out of some good deals of the Slim. Maybe that's why I sound pissed.
But it's Sony's job to sell their product. Not my to get a clear message through long research.
All I get from the Pro, is that the time to lock into the console seen to be not worth the effort, if you can't summarize it clearly. So will maybe try to get a cheap Slim version.
The manager of my local EB Games literally believed all 360 games ran at 1080p because they said 1080p on the back, unlike PS4.
"Uhh computers can't just magically make new pixels out of thin air"
Mostly true, but it actually has a little more than that according to Cerny. It'll be interesting to see how the "2 half-precisions in the time of 1 full-precision" thing will actually work out.
- It uses a rendering trick to get you what is basically 4K with some slight visual downgrades that you can only see if your eyes are inches away from a huge 4K screen. If used on a 1080p screen instead, it gives you a big reduction in jagged edges/shimmering.
- Some devs may use the power to boost the framerate or improve the graphics instead of going beyond 1080p, or to go from 900p on PS4 to 1080p on PS4 Pro, but this is a case-by-case thing up to their disgression.
There you go.
LookAtMeGo
Member
He's talking about at 16bit half floats right?
nowifenolife
Member
Why is telling the truth terrible? What should they do then? Tella buncha lies then it backfires in their faces and everyone ends up hating them Microsoft style
Stilton Disco
Member
I actually think this is one way in which Scorpio benefits Playstation, since it'll be easier to wait to 2020 to release 9th gen systems when the last 8th gen one was only in 2017.
I doubt we'll ever see a repeat of 7th gen and it's near decade of fixed hardware, or the preceding generations huge boost in performance every 5 or so years ever again. Like it or not, these mid gen spec bumps wil keep everything ticking over as a compromise between the two from now on most probably.
Fox_Mulder
Rockefellers. Skull and Bones. Microsoft. Al Qaeda. A Cabal of Bankers. The melting point of steel. What do these things have in common? Wake up sheeple, the landfill wasn't even REAL!
So Scorpio is weak. Mmmh
If they go for 2018, they'll probably go for a much better CPU over a much beefier GPU. There'll be a GPU increase, but maybe to like...9-10 TF.
IrishNinja
Member
mark cerny made marble madness while most of us were still gaming on RF, fam
ima take his word for it
ima take his word for it
Sony
Nintendo
4K is a resolution, not a predefined specified graphics package where you can say: this is 4k. The influence of the resolution on the framerate depends on the game played, how GPU demanding it is. Microsoft have made is pretty clear that their aim for Scorpio is to render Xbox One quality games in 4K native. That's not an unreachable goal.
I hate that 4K is labeled as some overall graphics package.
I hate that 4K is labeled as some overall graphics package.
Bits N Pieces
Member
Can't wait for the Scorpio reveal.
It's going to be a fun few months ahead, lol.
It's going to be a fun few months ahead, lol.
Sony
Nintendo
If their main focus was to enable 4K content they would not have upgraded the CPU and GPU of the Pro, it doesn't make sense to say "Hey our main focus is to enable 4k content, so lets upgrade the specifications of the PS4!". The Xbox One S has more 4K capabilities that the PS4 Pro...
Vindicator
Member
6TF should be enough for dem uncompressed high-quality pixels.
Cerny should have also been explicit about how important it is to have increased memory bandwith. Titan X Pascal has heavy drops because it just doesn't have the bandwidth to hit 60 FPS consistent.
People walk away from conversations like this with little context and assume teraflops are the de facto rubric on native 4k rendering.
These machines have a myriad of bottlenecks from poor CPU performance, lack of pure GPU grunt, insufficient memory bandwith, and most importantly an albatross that calls itself PS4 / Xbox One.
Isn't this precisely how Microsoft positioned Scorpio? We literally saw nothing except the promise of a 4K graphics package and a lot of hyperbole about uncompressed pixels.
People walk away from conversations like this with little context and assume teraflops are the de facto rubric on native 4k rendering.
These machines have a myriad of bottlenecks from poor CPU performance, lack of pure GPU grunt, insufficient memory bandwith, and most importantly an albatross that calls itself PS4 / Xbox One.
Isn't this precisely how Microsoft positioned Scorpio? We literally saw nothing except the promise of a 4K graphics package and a lot of hyperbole about uncompressed pixels.
Always-honest
Banned
So make the best games you can in 1080p....
Xbox is skipping 1080p all together it seems.
Xbox is skipping 1080p all together it seems.
Melchiah
Member
Unless we get 12TF device next gen, it seems we'd be better off staying at 1080p, with all the bells and whistles, including supersampling.
Sony
Nintendo
No. At the initial reveal Microsoft boasted about "true 4k" and "uncompressed pixels" to refer to the fact that project Scorpio is designed for native 4K. The quality though, as Microsoft stated later was Xbox One quality games in native 4K. Scorpio is designed to be powerful enough to run current Xbox One games natively in 4K. There is already a clarification: Xbox One quality graphics. There is no mixed messaging and no hyperbole in that. What I meant by "I hate that 4K is labeled as some overall graphics package." is that I don't know what Cerny is referring to. Is he saying that PC games maxed out will require at least 8TF to run smoothly in 4K? Current PS4 games? Because there are some last gen games on PC that run smoothly in 4K because they aren's graphically demanding enough to stress certain mid-high range GPU's. There are a lot of variables in graphics and 4K is one them, it's not a definition of graphics.
GribbleGrunger
Dreams in Digital
I was afraid to ask because I don't know much about tech. It IS a little bit of a coincidence that he recently talked about the Pro performing 8.4tf at 16bit floats and now he's talking about needing 8tf for 4K (assuming he means AAA).
DangerMouse
Member
But can't you already get a decent 4K/30FPS with like around "high" settings on a PC with lower than 8TF? It doesn't really seem unrralistic that the Scorpio can run games in 4K/30FPS on high settings when you look at what similar specced PCs can do...
Or am i completely missing something?
It doesn't seem that far fetched that we can get 1080/60FPS or 4K/30FPS on the Scorpio.
Or am i completely missing something?
It doesn't seem that far fetched that we can get 1080/60FPS or 4K/30FPS on the Scorpio.
Bitch Pudding
Member
Cerny explicitly mentioned 4K "across the board ", so under any circumstances.
Muchi Muchi Pink
Member
I'd rather know, when Sony tries making fun games again.
MichaÅ Jaworski
Banned
Reading Cerny's latest comments it's obvious Sony is panic mode. I guess Pro and (especially) slim aint selling as they predicted, so now they take shots at MS.
It was bound to happen sooner or later as sales decline. I mean, how long can you ride the wave called good launch conference with almost no new first party titles... No matter which company you prefer - you can't argue that MS has pretty decent lineup year after year.
So yeah Cerny... dude in 'stylish' t-shirt... And those 8tflops man... Why not add your magical secret sauce with 16 bit operations and make it 16tflops?
Bottom line - Sony needs to get their shit together, getting Jack Tretton back would probably be easiest way to end this PR nightmare. As for now we're left with Cerny-House dynamic combo that just don't work.
Cerny should focus more on engineering and less on interviews so we get something better than Knack Remaster in 4k coming to 8+tflops PS5...
It was bound to happen sooner or later as sales decline. I mean, how long can you ride the wave called good launch conference with almost no new first party titles... No matter which company you prefer - you can't argue that MS has pretty decent lineup year after year.
So yeah Cerny... dude in 'stylish' t-shirt... And those 8tflops man... Why not add your magical secret sauce with 16 bit operations and make it 16tflops?
Bottom line - Sony needs to get their shit together, getting Jack Tretton back would probably be easiest way to end this PR nightmare. As for now we're left with Cerny-House dynamic combo that just don't work.
Cerny should focus more on engineering and less on interviews so we get something better than Knack Remaster in 4k coming to 8+tflops PS5...
PodcastFips
Member
RIGS released 2 weeks ago.
LiquidSolid
Member
Like most third parties? You realise the vast majority of PS4 games are 1080p, right? No way will the Scorpio deliver native 4K that often.
They're going for first party 4k games, so that is at least 3 games over the hardware lifecycle that will.
We will see next year with scorpio then
All Microsoft first party games. They aren't forcing devs to use extra power on 4k.
LuvOfThaGame
Banned
Yup. Didn't Greenberg get a 'flaked' reputation for saying stuff like this?