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[Omnistalgic]

I think the average person cares whether something is native 4K as much as they care if a game was native 1080p. That never stopped us from caring here at GAF.

Yeah...this is probably true.

But then again there are posters who are on GAF who don't care. I thought I cared, until I saw an X1 in person lol...

GAF really adds the drama to everything. But at launch with both systems releasing at the same time, PS4 being cheaper and outperforming X1, I can see why so much of forums were stuck on 1080p, particularly in the beginning when Call of duty was like 720p at first i believe?

Still it was exaggerated

 

[Duxxy3]

Probably an indication of what they're targeting with the PS5.

Scorpio does not exist. I doubt it will. Fracture the fanbase makes no sense. Microsoft can't build a PC, I'd rather have cancer than windows.

 

[LukasTaves]

Wow at this not any subtle attempt at spreading doubt on Scorpio, by picking a number that's a clear cut above it.

This is basically him saying, Scorpio won't also have true native 4k so buy our box now instead of waiting for not 4k gaming anyway.

You're acting like they're trying to deceive people by advertising Pro as a native 4K console, whereas in reality, they were completely upfront and honest about their rendering/upscaling techniques to drive 4K images at the reveal event in September.

They were honest about the fact that the console is not powerful enough to run native 4k in all games.

They were less than honest about how close their techniques really are, with quotes like people won't be able to see the difference (from a 4k native image) with normal eyes and so on.

"Our console isn't native 4K but we're going to lie and be deceptive about it"
"Boooo Hisssss!!!"

"Our console isn't native 4K and we're going to be upfront about it and detail the techniques we use to create images somewhat on par with it"
"Boooo Hisssss!!!"

Perhaps people just wanted a 4K console, and not lies or excuses as to why this new console that touts 4k isn't really running in 4K?

Yeah, I know, too pricey for 2016, but who said that they had to launch this year, specially if 4k gaming was such a important goal for them?

 

[low-G]

My understanding is FP16 means half precision rendering. What does this have to do specifically with HDR?

I read the PS4 Pro and other modern AMD GPUs can process two instructions simultaneously at FP16 doubling output for some workloads.

FP16 means floating point numbers with 16 bits each. That format's range goes +/- 65,000, which already rules it out for video games in many cases. I'd suggest you look up the IEEE standard for more detail.

I didn't think you guys could possibly be talking about bulk workload because it doesn't make sense, and you'd need special hardware anyways.

So just forget about it, it's not gonna happen in a console.

 

[Tagyhag]

Scorpio does not exist. I doubt it will. Fracture the fanbase makes no sense. Microsoft can't build a PC, I'd rather have cancer than windows.

You think they're just lying? That's insane lol.

 

[Carn82]

I can see a reverse PS4/X1 scenario between PS4 Pro and Scorpio. It will probably boil down to in which ecosystem you are invested

 

[deadlast]

Yeah...this is probably true.

But then again there are posters who are on GAF who don't care. I thought I cared, until I saw an X1 in person lol...

GAF really adds the drama to everything.

Spec Drama on GAF... Pffttt yeah right. When has that ever happened?

Probably an indication of what they're targeting with the PS5.

That is what I'm thinking. 8TF will be minimum requirements for PS5.

 

[Omnistalgic]

Wow at this not any subtle attempt at spreading doubt on Scorpio, by picking a number that's a clear cut above it.

This is basically him saying, Scorpio won't also have true native 4k so buy our box now instead of waiting for not 4k gaming anyway.


They were honest about the fact that the console is not powerful enough to run native 4k in all games.

They were less than honest about how close their techniques really are, with quotes like people won't be able to see the difference (from a 4k native image) with normal eyes and so on.


Perhaps people just wanted a 4K console, and not lies or excuses as to why this new console that touts 4k isn't really running in 4K?

Yeah, I know, too pricey for 2016, but who said that they had to launch this year, specially if 4k gaming was such a important goal for them?

Your warrior spirit is strong...and is the Pro out? Have the general public starting to cry false advertisement law claims against Sony because Pro games look like garbage on 4K sets? Who are are speaking about here?

There's already native 4K games on Pro, of course there will be on the more powerful hardware coming after it. Take it easy, and read the context of the interview. It's his personal estimation of what a baseline should be, his opinion.

 

[cheezcake]

8TF sounds right if you're just purely talking about translating current PS4 games to 4K.

 

[Melchiah]

Funny. Apparently plenty cared about 1080p. Why the goal post shifting now?

Predictions do come true.

http://neogaf.site/forum/showpost.php?p=217739045&postcount=351

I wonder if mine does as well.

Personally, I wager we'll see the same gaming sites make a big deal about native 4K on Scorpio, when they downplayed the differences in the beginning of this generation.

 

[jeffram]

I don't think anyone should be surprised about this. Given that they are hitting half of 4K on most games with 4.2tf. 2 more tf on the scorpio is not going to make up the other half of the missing 4k image.

The question is, with he impressions we've been getting about the effectiveness of checkered board rendering, why do we even want native 4K when those extra flops could go into better frame rates or higher quality images?

 

[jobrro]

FP16 means floating point numbers with 16 bits each. That format's range goes +/- 65,000, which already rules it out for video games in many cases. I'd suggest you look up the IEEE standard for more detail.

I didn't think you guys could possibly be talking about bulk workload because it doesn't make sense, and you'd need special hardware anyways.

So just forget about it, it's not gonna happen in a console.

Not sure if it will be widespread but they are using it in certain titles.

Of course, we already knew that the Pro graphics core implements a range of new instructions - it was part of the initial leak - but we didn't really know exactly what they could actually do. As we understand it, with the new enhancements, it's possible to complete two 16-bit floating point operations in the time taken to complete one on the base PS4 hardware. The end result from the new Radeon technology is the additional throughput required to making Mantis Burn Racing hit its 4K performance target, though significant shader optimisation was required on the part of the developer.

Source Digital Foundry.

 

[Journey]

Teraflops is such a flawed measurement at this point, didn't we see nVidia cards with much less TF numbers outperform AMD cards with considerably more TF? This means that GPU architecture can change what that number means.

For all we know 6TF Vega = 8TF Polaris.

 

[Psyrgery ES]

Scorpio does not exist. I doubt it will. Fracture the fanbase makes no sense. Microsoft can't build a PC, I'd rather have cancer than windows.

What the shit. That's tasteless son.

 

[mordecaii83]

FP16 means floating point numbers with 16 bits each. That format's range goes +/- 65,000, which already rules it out for video games in many cases. I'd suggest you look up the IEEE standard for more detail.

I didn't think you guys could possibly be talking about bulk workload because it doesn't make sense, and you'd need special hardware anyways.

So just forget about it, it's not gonna happen in a console.

What the other poster said is correct, the PS4 GPU can in fact work on two FP16 instructions at the same time or one FP32 instruction. Not everything will be able to be done in FP16, but mobile games for example are FP16 from what people have said so at least some work should be able to be done at that precision.

 

[Peltz]

Scorpio does not exist. I doubt it will. Fracture the fanbase makes no sense. Microsoft can't build a PC, I'd rather have cancer than windows.

Both my parents had cancer last year. Trust me, you'd rather have windows.

 

[KageMaru]

Yeah...this is probably true.

But then again there are posters who are on GAF who don't care. I thought I cared, until I saw an X1 in person lol...

GAF really adds the drama to everything. But at launch with both systems releasing at the same time, PS4 being cheaper and outperforming X1, I can see why so much of forums were stuck on 1080p, particularly in the beginning when Call of duty was like 720p at first i believe?

Still it was exaggerated

Yeah totally and I've been able to enjoy games regardless of the resolution.

I don't think Clear was doing this but I can see some here moving the goal post by acting like native resolutions don't matter anymore when that's silly IMO.

 

[PHOENIXZERO]

That's not what I'm talking about I'm talking about when I said that Sony would need a 8TF console if they wanted to brute force 4K for PS4 games in the same way that Scorpio should be able to get Xbox One games to 4K. (I'm not talking about one game)

Oh, well I imagine that's because you can't go from XBO/PS4's base, multiply by four and assume that's what's needed to hit 4K for that platform and besides that every game isn't the same and are doing different things with the processing power they have available and then there's utilization. A 6TF PS4P would've been able to hit 4K just as well as the 6TF Scorpio can and there's still a lot of factors that come into play that don't make it as simple as just multiplying the theoretical peak FLOP count.

 

[Omnistalgic]

Predictions do come true.

http://neogaf.site/forum/showpost.php?p=217739045&postcount=351

I wonder if mine does as well.

I thought X1 900p games were fine (could only tell with side by side, it's not like I went to my friends house who played on X1 and said this looks worse than my PS4) so I'm sure I would agree with this.

But once again it will just be Sony GAF moving goal posts because MS has the power. I wish we could just stop it, Sony aren't stupid, they wouldn't have released Pro with its current specs if they didn't think it looked good on 4K sets. I thought DF of all sites with there positive impressions would help clear this up again, but only one more week to Pro is in the wild, and much of GAF is rich lol, it's a nice group of gamers that will have new TVs along with Pro. so we'll have real impressions soon enough.

 

[AP90]

Now that I think about it, It's somewhat funny to see both MS and Sony saying you need roughly 4.5x the power for 4K.

XB1 1.3/1.4TF -> Scorpio 6TF
PS4 1.8TF -> (Possible future version) 8TF?

Both seem to talk about their current console games running in 4K on new hardware.

As a result of Cernys comment, new Scorpio target now has to be 7TF+ =P

Spoiler

Still thinking it will be closer to 6.5TF as PR people would love to be able to say the next console iteration has 5x times the power of the Xb1 instead of 4.5x...

 

[Theonik]

4K 30fps is doable on a RX480 in a lot of games if you turn some of the settings down to console-ish parameters.

Only at sub ps4 settings.

 

[Omnistalgic]

Both my parents had cancer last year. Trust me, you'd rather have windows.

Sorry to hear that bro...

 

[thelastword]

rofl why would he say this with the pro about to come out?

Would you rather hear him say that "every game on your screen will be 4k output right?".......? Or that, all games will have the most impressive uncompressed pixels ever seen by the human eye, or that all games will be native 4k????

That would be lying with even the best CPU+GPU configuration right now, and especially so with 4.2-6TF machines, but I guess people prefer marketing lies than proper and truthful information.

Looks like ps5 will be atleast 8 TF. Preorder confirmed.

PS5 will be at least 16TF minimum. Vega is dropping in December (2016) to early January (2017), that is coming in at 12TF on a new arch with HBM2. The PS4.Pro already has some features of Vega and others not seen in a GPU yet unique to it. There's no way the PS5 comes out in 2020 with a measly 8TF on a GPU. Do you know what type of GPU's will be available then? Hell, Dual Vega's will be a thing as early as June/July next year.
.

Yeah, exactly...Sony were basically boasting about checkerboard rendering and “look how close we can get to 4K”

If he’s on the money, and 8TF is the starting point for Native 4K, what does a rig like that even costs? Double the Pro’s $400?

This to me, shows the value of Pro

A 1070 is about 8TF, that's $400.00 right now on Amazon, a good CPU to minimize drops from 60fps is the 6700k Skylake, that $330-320 on average at Amazon. You still have to buy a motherboard, Ram, an HDD, an OS, Keyboard and Mouse etc. etc.. I think it adds up.....
.

This is why I already made up my mind with scorpio/pro, what a waste to put most of the resources into trying to achieve 4k.

There are also 1080p modes that offer Ultra presets at 30-60fps. If you want better framerates and better presets a Pro is a very viable purchase. If you want 4k resolution and in between resolutions with med-high presets with HDR then the Pro is also for you, everybody benefits. So the Pro is not all about 4k and 1080P users be damned. I have a 4k set and also a 1080p set. I'm still a 1080p user, I will be playing/testing games on both. I will also be setting my 4k panel to 1080p on the Pro's XMB to determine if I get the same benefits in framerate as my 1080p set. I'm sure I will, but clearly, every tv owner is covered except 720p users ha ha, but Hell, even statham has upgraded to a 1080p screen recently.

The Pro is mostly not native 4k and it doesn't break backwards compatibility with the PS4. An 8 TF system as the person I responded to quoted wouldn't really be good for a generational transition, because the 6-8 TF range is about where you need to be to give the games we're already getting now in native 4k. Ergo, you'd want a lot more than that.



64GB RAM would be a bit ludicrous. BD disc sizes might go up to 100gb but that's getting close to the point where the RAM is almost as large as game file sizes. We're not nearly as memory constrained as we were last gen, so an increase to 24-32GB would be more than adequate.

Ram is cheap, it's going to get cheaper. Devs will always and can always utilize more ram. The Pro has given back 512MB, eventually they may be able to give the entire 1024Mb when the OS shrinks, perhaps even more when they cut down on the 2.5GB OS. I'm sure the devs are going to utilize this to great gains in their games....

The other thing we have to consider is that many games are being developed with 4k assets/textures and even higher. I'm looking forward to the day when ram size is a big as disc/file size. Loading all those textures into Vram, all those NPC's and huge draw distances into Ram is something we can look forward to as a genuine leap for the next gen consoles. No more loading times, you can go back to a level and see the bodies of the guys you just laid waste to, the cup you knocked off the table is still on the floor in the room you just left, in the nearby town. Surely, 4k or even 8k textures will take much more space than 1080p textures and keeping all of these high quality assets in memory would be beneficial to seamless worlds/levels without any pop-in, fluctuating details etc....

28nm was actually a very good node and a solid jump from 90nm.

It just so happened both Sony and MS were reeling from big HW losses and thus went cheap semi custom.

Also the only viable vendor was AMD which had a poor run of CPU designs. At least in hindsight Southern Islands was superior to Kepler.

Good point. Also, for the next round, they would have access to much better GPU's with new memory and efficiencies and an AMD CPU that's not behind the eight ball, so in that sense PS5, XB2.0 will be very impressive machines on a technical front, both CPU's and GPU's.

 

[justsomeguy]

nvm

 

[Latimer]

I thought X1 900p games were fine (could only tell with side by side, it's not like I went to my friends house who played on X1 and said this looks worse than my PS4) so I'm sure I would agree with this.

But once again it will just be Sony GAF moving goal posts because MS has the power. I wish we could just stop it, Sony aren't stupid, they wouldn't have released Pro with its current specs if they didn't think it looked good on 4K sets. I thought DF of all sites with there positive impressions would help clear this up again, but only one more week to Pro is in the wild, and much of GAF is rich lol, it's a nice group of gamers that will have new TVs along with Pro. so we'll have real impressions soon enough.

You're pretty much the only one talking about all this warrior crap.

 

[Carn82]

at least some work should be able to be done at that precision.

Yes, but:

though significant shader optimisation was required on the part of the developer

It will pretty much differ per game/engine in what way FP16 will improve things.

 

[Always-honest]

Scorpio does not exist. I doubt it will. Fracture the fanbase makes no sense. Microsoft can't build a PC, I'd rather have cancer than windows.

I had both. And while both are not much fun to deal with, i think i might actually prefer Windows for some reason.

Spoiler

While it's completely fucking stupid to say and extremely disrespectful to people who actually had to deal with cancer, i can actually laugh at that joke you made.
I know you don't really rather have cancer, it's just a way of saying you hate Windows a lot.
I'm afraid i have a similar sense of humor. Even after having went trough hell with cancer.
But you have to realize a lot of people will be angry and sad by your remark.So best to keep these jokes for the people who share your sick sense of humor.

 

[Inuhanyou]

PS5 will be at least 16TF minimum. Vega is dropping in December (2016) to early January (2017), that is coming in at 12TF on a new arch with HBM2. The PS4.Pro already has some features of Vega and others not seen in a GPU yet unique to it. There's no way the PS5 comes out in 2020 with a measly 8TF on a GPU. Do you know what type of GPU's will be available then? Hell, Dual Vega's will be a thing as early as June/July next year.

What will you say if your wrong.

Your comparing dual vega GPU configuration to a 399 console that needs to ship in 2019.

3 years ago at 399, PS4's GPU was best bang for buck at that price range. 3 years later, its around a little over double, or Pro's GPU. So extrapolating that, you double it again in 3 years. That gives you 8 to 10 tflops. Not 16, especially not in a console.

What your saying sounds like dreams talk.

 

[Peltz]

Sorry to hear that bro...

Luckily, they survived. Still, I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy or joke around about it.

 

[Always-honest]

Luckily, they survived. Still, I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy or joke around about it.

Congrats! That's awesome.

 

[Zedox]

Scorpio does not exist. I doubt it will. Fracture the fanbase makes no sense. Microsoft can't build a PC, I'd rather have cancer than windows.

 

[RichiRamjag]

Quick, someone record themselves cringing. 😛

 

[PHOENIXZERO]

A 1070 is about 8TF, that's $400.00 right now on Amazon, a good CPU to minimize drops from 60fps is the 6700k Skylake, that $330-320 on average at Amazon. You still have to buy a motherboard, Ram, an HDD, an OS, Keyboard and Mouse etc. etc.. I think it adds up.....

A stock 1070 has a clock speed of1683MHz with GPU boost is just under 6.5TF and that's before it throttles. If you do decently in the silicon lottery you can overclock it to around or a bit over 2GHz and get close. To actually reach 8TF you need to be a silicon lottery jackpot winner you have to achieve 2.1GHz after GPU boost settles.

Besides that, a 1070 can do okay at 4K depending on the game but for something like, the Witcher 3 you have to run it medium settings to reach 4K at a decently solid 30FPS, other newer titles can probably do it too with sacrifices and might just be me but that doesn't seem worth it. We're still a good ways away from 4K without some significant compromises at that level.

But again, a 6TF NVIDIA GPU doesn't mean a 6TF AMD GPU would be able to achieve the same.
EDIT:

Ram is cheap, it's going to get cheaper. Devs will always and can always utilize more ram. The Pro has given back 512MB, eventually they may be able to give the entire 1024Mb when the OS shrinks, perhaps even more when they cut down on the 2.5GB OS. I'm sure the devs are going to utilize this to great gains in their games....

The other thing we have to consider is that many games are being developed with 4k assets/textures and even higher. I'm looking forward to the day when ram size is a big as disc/file size. Loading all those textures into Vram, all those NPC's and huge draw distances into Ram is something we can look forward to as a genuine leap for the next gen consoles. No more loading times, you can go back to a level and see the bodies of the guys you just laid waste to, the cup you knocked off the table is still on the floor in the room you just left, in the nearby town. Surely, 4k or even 8k textures will take much more space than 1080p textures and keeping all of these high quality assets in memory would be beneficial to seamless worlds/levels without any pop-in, fluctuating details etc....

I'm pretty sure there's a lot more to that than it just being retained in the memory. The only way we'll ever reach the point of no loading times and having enough RAM to fit an entire modern AAA budget sort of game into it is if games stop growing which they probably won't. Then again, there are other factors in play than just RAM amount. I think the odds are better that we get SSDs as standard with extremely fast read speeds to stream data quicker than we are to come to a situation any time remotely soon to where that is feasible and by remotely soon I mean before we're at an age where we have to worry about control of out bodily functions.

 

[EventHorizon]

I thought X1 900p games were fine (could only tell with side by side, it's not like I went to my friends house who played on X1 and said this looks worse than my PS4) so I'm sure I would agree with this.

But once again it will just be Sony GAF moving goal posts because MS has the power. I wish we could just stop it, Sony aren't stupid, they wouldn't have released Pro with its current specs if they didn't think it looked good on 4K sets. I thought DF of all sites with there positive impressions would help clear this up again, but only one more week to Pro is in the wild, and much of GAF is rich lol, it's a nice group of gamers that will have new TVs along with Pro. so we'll have real impressions soon enough.

It's not moving the goalposts. The point was that the XB1 had worse visuals than the PS4 AND cost more at launch. It simply made no sense to pay more for less. In all these discussions about the PS4 Pro and Scorpio, too many people keep forgetting to account for price. A $500+ Scorpio that only looks marginally better than a PS4 Pro if you are sitting close to the screen doesn't make any sense either.

 

[AP90]

This is pure gold 👍

 

[panda-zebra]

I think the average person cares whether something is native 4K as much as they care if a game was native 1080p. That never stopped us from caring here at GAF.

Of course you're right, and given what Leadbetter wrote after seeing the Pro in person, we should all care a little less than before... yet I have a feeling that some might care more than ever if it supports their narrative.

Wow at this not any subtle attempt at spreading doubt on Scorpio, by picking a number that's a clear cut above it.

See, that's some 4k Ultra HD native fully-uncompressed-pixel true HDR paranoia. Certain segments of GAF will always care a little too much for their own good.

 

[Bits N Pieces]

Hahaha!

 

[Carn82]

It's not moving the goalposts. The point was that the XB1 had worse visuals than the PS4 AND cost more at launch. It simply made no sense to pay more for less. In all these discussions about the PS4 Pro and Scorpio, too many people keep forgetting to account for price. A $500+ Scorpio that only looks marginally better than a PS4 Pro if you are sitting close to the screen doesn't make any sense either.

If the 500+ dollar machine only has 'marginally better' graphics (of course, GAF will pixel-count and throw around 'real' and 'fake' 4K terminology) compared to the < 399 PS4 Pro; I can imagine it will be a hard battle for MS to sell that to the average consumer. But to quote myself:

I can see a reverse PS4/X1 scenario between PS4 Pro and Scorpio. It will probably boil down to in which ecosystem you are invested

 

[Omnistalgic]

It's not moving the goalposts. The point was that the XB1 had worse visuals than the PS4 AND cost more at launch. It simply made no sense to pay more for less. In all these discussions about the PS4 Pro and Scorpio, too many people keep forgetting to account for price. A $500+ Scorpio that only looks marginally better than a PS4 Pro if you are sitting close to the screen doesn't make any sense either.

some just don't want to see the logic...But MS may hit the $400 number like Sony did, I think that would be smart. Have to wait and see...

Either way I'm just excited about Pro finally hitting, hoping GameStop gives me $200 for a trade in.

 

[RichiRamjag]

some just don't want to see the logic...But MS may hit the $400 number like Sony did, I think that would be smart. Have to wait and see...

Either way I'm just excited about Pro finally hitting, hoping GameStop gives me $200 for a trade in.

They hit that $400 mark and they'll be golden, but with how they're talking, I'm thinking $500 minimum.

Why buy any of them when you can play your switch in the can.

...is that a request

Haha, I've messed up now!

 

[Interfectum]

Scorpio does not exist. I doubt it will. Fracture the fanbase makes no sense. Microsoft can't build a PC, I'd rather have cancer than windows.

 

[Zedox]

Quick, someone record themselves cringing. &#128539;

...is that a request

 

[Alpha Phoenix]

At least he's honest.

 

[Wereroku]

It's not moving the goalposts. The point was that the XB1 had worse visuals than the PS4 AND cost more at launch. It simply made no sense to pay more for less. In all these discussions about the PS4 Pro and Scorpio, too many people keep forgetting to account for price. A $500+ Scorpio that only looks marginally better than a PS4 Pro if you are sitting close to the screen doesn't make any sense either.

Depending on the game it isn't going to be marginal. However the bigger value for Microsoft is their promise of enhancing even the older catalog without developers doing any work. But yes the problem with people saying the PS4 did better because it was more powerful ignores that the XBO launched at $100 more expense and worse. PS4 pro is going to be cheaper then the scorpio when it launches so it is not really even a competition at that point. The XBO launch was really up there with the ps3 launch I am still impressed at how quickly Microsoft changed course.

 

[dogen]

You're confusing things. FP16 is a HDR rendering target. It's not suddenly taking single precision floating point math units and doubling their workload. That's not how that stuff works at ALL.

In this case, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what's happening. AMD's polaris and newer GPUs can do twice as many 16 bit operations as 32 bit operations in the same amount of time.

 

[Herp Derpington]

It's not moving the goalposts. The point was that the XB1 had worse visuals than the PS4 AND cost more at launch. It simply made no sense to pay more for less. In all these discussions about the PS4 Pro and Scorpio, too many people keep forgetting to account for price. A $500+ Scorpio that only looks marginally better than a PS4 Pro if you are sitting close to the screen doesn't make any sense either.

It's not going to be 500 bucks. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it. I mean at this point it will only be 100 more than the stock One and that makes the One a bad deal in comparison for the differences in power. If they push the price of the One down to the 250 range or lower (doubt it, 250 seems right) Scorpio won't be more than 399 as the price difference then will be too drastic. I know some want Scorpio to fail for a variety of reasons but MS isn't stupid; they got burned at 499 once before. It doesn't matter why only that that price point will probably be off limits. It'll be 399.

 

[TLZ]

Scorpio does not exist. I doubt it will. Fracture the fanbase makes no sense. Microsoft can't build a PC, I'd rather have cancer than windows.

 

[64bitbros]

Perhaps people just wanted a 4K console, and not lies or excuses as to why this new console that touts 4k isn't really running in 4K?[/B]

Yeah, I know, too pricey for 2016, but who said that they had to launch this year, specially if 4k gaming was such a important goal for them?

Can i get a quote of those lies? Love to see 'em.

 

[Wollan]

I would be pretty disappointed if it was less than 16-20.

For 2019 having 12tf in console form and price would be Great. 16-20 is unrealistic.

 

[EventHorizon]

If the 500+ dollar machine only has 'marginally better' graphics (of course, GAF will pixel-count and throw around 'real' and 'fake' 4K terminology) compared to the < 399 PS4 Pro; I can imagine it will be a hard battle for MS to sell that to the average consumer. But to quote myself:

The problem Scorpio will face is that diminishing returns really are a thing and we already have reports that the graphical output of the PS4 Pro is pretty close to 4K at normal viewing distances. On top of that, games for the Pro and Scorpio will be anchored to the PS4 and XB1 performance. That means there won't be any gameplay changes that take advantage of the extra horsepower. These half-gen consoles will have to distinguish themselves on those diminishing graphical output returns alone.

One caveat could be that more stable framerates could be the more important differentiator. In fact I suspect that will be the most apparent effect of the Scorpio horsepower advantage. Ironically, Scorpio's pursuit of native 4K could throw away that advantage.