Then you must have an even dimmer view of the power of women in society than most, since all of those things are pretty commonplace features and occurrences in 21st century Western society (excluding cosplay), and yet you maintain that a majority of women are opposed to them.
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Naughty Dog wanted to "change the industry" with The Last of Us
- Thread starter Poetic.Injustice
- Start date
It's weird to read that because that was built right into the character and the gameplay.
She learned how to shoot a rifle (and turned out to be a crack shot) back in Summer, and she mentioned she already had experience with the bow long before Joel met her. She has since helped you out with shooting all the way through to Winter. She's had plenty of experience. Quite different from "I've never shot a weapon at a person before!", and going on a shooting spree later that same day.
Also, when you play as her in Winter, you have way less health, less listening mode radius, and your melee kills are prolonged and sloppy (and solely reliant on a knife instead of hand-to-hand).
Also, when you play as her in Winter, you have way less health, less listening mode radius, and your melee kills are prolonged and sloppy (and solely reliant on a knife instead of hand-to-hand).
I stealthed through the vast majority of that section; two casualties on the way to the end.
I don't get how that's a poorly written ending at all.
The ending is so crucial and relevant to EVERYTHING that happened before. The story IS the characters, and giving choices would only dilute the writing. That ending was exactly what the creators wanted to say about them. Tough moral choices is not what the game set out to be about. A "pretentious non-ending" is all of a sudden a cliche Hollywood thing now?
2dshmuplover
Banned
While I respect the hard work Naughty Dog puts into their games I'm grateful they didn't change the industry, I'm not a fan of the whole Hollywood movie-game angle of their games, same with Quantic Dream.
Same here. It was tough as shit though.
That wasn't what Neil wanted the industry to take notice of.
And it's already a bit too late for that sentiment. Much of the prominent industry players have been trying to be cinematic like Uncharted for the latter half of this generation, lol
faceless007
Member
Seems to me that would just waste everyone's time. Every group has crazies, and every opposition to them tries to paint them as the baseline, but reasonable people who are even slightly educated on the issue know how to tell the difference (as you seem to). If it makes you feel better, put the people saying those vile things in the same mental category as the Phelps clan and be done with it. If you feel you need it, you have my permission as a non-extremist feminist to do this.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
That scene at the end really emphasizes how little TLOU values its gameplay mechanics though.
I don't think I've ever seen a game chuck out its internal logic for cheap moments more than it. Enemies spawning out of thin air and Joel suddenly losing his Batman vision to get ambushed every ten minutes were probably the worst, but the game has set forth a world where guys can easily shrug off bullets and that guy will die even if you shoot him in the toe.
I don't think I've ever seen a game chuck out its internal logic for cheap moments more than it. Enemies spawning out of thin air and Joel suddenly losing his Batman vision to get ambushed every ten minutes were probably the worst, but the game has set forth a world where guys can easily shrug off bullets and that guy will die even if you shoot him in the toe.
The day that people are non sexualised in meida/art is the day mankind seize to exist.
So this guy wants all women to wear no sexy cloths? whats the point?
He might as well say ''i want humans to be less human''.
People always have a choice, you cant decide for them by trying to limit what they are exposed to.
So this guy wants all women to wear no sexy cloths? whats the point?
He might as well say ''i want humans to be less human''.
People always have a choice, you cant decide for them by trying to limit what they are exposed to.
No problem! There are a lot more devs out there for you. For each taste = different devs.
Naughty Dog are kings at what they do. Fans love it, sales are great.
They will continue to amaze.
You're overly simplifying what I said. I said they don't have a problem with porn/stripping as much as how the problem lies with the businesses tied to it.
And it's not vague when I provide a very blatant example, no matter how much you want to write off the example because...
Well, now you're the one being vague.
So now you speak for all men. I guess that makes sense for you to conflate yourself as the voice of all men when it's so easy for you to conflate everybody else.
I didn't really admit that the problem exists as much as I, in error on my own part that I will fully admit, wanted to focus more on how men should be offended by it (and we should be).
Again, you keep conflating puritanism and feminism, but the problem is that puritans would find issue with titties and panties being flashed, while the issue that feminists (and, anybody, really) have is why it's happening.
I said they were wrong because, here's a big shocker, they were wrong.
It's not a valid point to say that Feminists turn a blind eye to what goes on in Twilight because they don't. Just because Twilight has a lot of women in its fanbase doesn't mean that everybody turns a blind eye to a disgusting gender and sexual politics that go on in it.
I don't think what goes on in this forum even classifies as puritanical feminism as much as it is a lot of people realizing they don't like the gross pandering that goes on in the gaming industry.
Personally, I don't mind some sexualization in the games I play, but there is definitely a point they can cross where things get pretty eye rolling and I start to feel like it's just there to try and sell a game to me because I'm a dumb primal beast who will buy a game because I might see some titties.
dragonbane
Member
The doctor dying when you shoot him in the foot was indeed bullshit.
What are you talking about? I stealth my way through the last section easily.
Is confirmation bias a fairly new term? It sounds so bull shit on paper. The creator of the term might as well say there is no absoute truth. And i've seen the people who've claimed that. Weren't very bright or research driven.
Elway7Sharpe84
Banned
It's more about about capitalism/free enterprise then anything else. Morals, ethics, emotions, and feelings rarely have a place when it comes to making business decisions/profits.
The reason porn exist (gay, straight, transgender, or whatever floats people's boat) is because it sells
The reason stripping exist (males or females) is because it sells
The reason games/anime feature fan service (for women or men) is because it's appealing and it sells.
The reason media like Twilight and 50 shades exist is because it's appealing and it sells.
Just like why a lot of music videos/ads have women half naked/in provocative poses.
"Power" has nothing to do with it.
Having your cake and eating it too is an expression referring to having the best of both worlds when that represents two incompatible situations. Once you've eaten a cake, you no longer have it.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
I'm referring to
killing the surgeon
The stuff about enemies spawning out of thin air and Joel constantly being ambushed is me referring to the rest of the game, not the last level.
This discussion is going nowhere, you're just repeating the same things you said in the previous post without providing any proof. So I'll just focus on the last paragraph.
Who appointed feminists as the judges on how much sexualization is acceptable? Isn't resisting social progress on sexual matters pretty much the definition of conservatism and puritanism?
Well, I like the writing and story in GTA V, even though I recognise the misogyny and violence in it. Audiences are smart enough to understand that 50 etc. are fantasies on the extreme ends, and can enjoy it for the camp it is. Edward Cullen, the boy with the mind of an adult, simultaneously possessive and protecting, sexually violent, but someone who will never hurt you, tolerant of male rivals, yet antagonistic towards then. He makes about as much sense as Quiet, the bikini-clad soldier from MGS. It's all camp, but the things that appeal to women are different from those of men, and it's easy to point at the other side and say, "women need to like what I'm comfortable projecting myself as."
Baaaaaack on topic,
It is ridiculous that ND thought the best way to avoid sexualising a character was to make her a child, and then, to replace the sex reward with another goal, protection. Women are either sexual rewards, or family that you must protect, is one of the oldest forms of objectification out there.
Yet, it was laughable.
She leart how to shoot a rifle, but obviously she was completely alone in that part, and she was violently thrown into the "main role", encountering the same amount of enemies as Joel, having to deal with them all alone. The result? A horde of bigger, faster, more experienced men, getting owned by a little frightened girl. For a game that tried to take itself EXTREMELY seriously up to that point, it was really dissapointing. Also the stealth mechanic was terribly implemented there, you couldn't pass into another area no matter how well you stealthed your way in, they would always find you, resulting into the classic "clear the room to proceed" sequence.
Regarding the last part where
Joel is inside the hospital. Stealth was poorly implemented there as well, and i really couldn't stealth my way there either, without having to "clear the room" first. Except the very last part where i managed to slip by them and go straight into the door. Regardless, it felt cheap and rushed, it deserved a better designed final encounter that this.
As for the ending,
it would be really a step closer to "industry-changing, if they had given us at least one moral option to choose from. Give us the option to sacrifice Ellie. Give us the option to spare Tess. The way they ended the game felt generic and "safey" as an approach.
Taking in mind all the above, i cannot really say that TLOU changed/tried to change the industry in any way whatsoever.
Eclectic Jabber Monkey
Member
If ND had wanted to "change the industry" they would've made Joel the kid and Ellie the adult, but I guess $ talks at the end of the day.
ProfessorMoran
Member
This is an improper comparison. The Phelps clan don't get space in big national newspapers, nor do they have influence in academic spaces.
Why thank you, I feel safer already.
Ellie kind of served the same purpose though to be honest.
All of the "holy shit Joel!" lines after the player kills a bunch of enemies, the high five bit, "we make a great team" type dialogue, Joel teaching her how to use a rifle and promising to each her how to swim later... There was even a scene where Ellie said something like "everyone has died or left me except you - i wouldn't be safer without you, just more scared!" while crying.
The way you explain it makes sense.
I always read "You can have your cake" in the same vein as "Would you like some cake". Because whats the point of having cake if you're not going to eat it?
There has to be a better punchline lol.
TetraGenesis
Member
EmptySpace
Banned
EmptySpace likes naughty dog, but sometimes their comments on storytelling and stories are just plain pretentious.
yes, relative to other games their stories and their storytelling are much better, but in no way are they groundbreaking or game-changers or so far ahead of other games.
in interviews on tlou, naughty dog speaks as if they are doing something so incredibly amazing it's almost inconceivable.
yes, relative to other games their stories and their storytelling are much better, but in no way are they groundbreaking or game-changers or so far ahead of other games.
in interviews on tlou, naughty dog speaks as if they are doing something so incredibly amazing it's almost inconceivable.
Buckethead
Banned
I hope it catches on.
ME2 was disgusting. Really left a poor taste in my mouth.
ME2 was disgusting. Really left a poor taste in my mouth.
Elway7Sharpe84
Banned
ME2 was freaking awesome.
Loved Miranda, Samara, Jack, Aria, and even Morinth.
My favorite part about the game were the female designs.
There is a slight differnce, in my opinion. You ARE the protagonist in HL2, being in first person view and having no dialogue to directly interact with NPCs in fear of establishing a predetermined, distinct identity that the player might not want.
TLOU has you control a character who's motivations you may share or relate to, but is altogether a very different human being than you. He has a harrowed past, a chip on his shoulder, and has his own points of view that may be completely different than the player, and vocalizes them as well. When Ellie and Joel were getting along, I was happy for THEM, vs Alex Vance in HL2 interacting with "me".
I don't know if that made sense or not but I found them to be distinct in that way.
I believe I asked for your proof initially, and you responded with somebody else's anecdotal and entirely unfounded claims. Sure, I might be repeating myself by virtue of you not listening to me, but I think you decided it wasn't going anywhere by deciding to arbitrarily ignore everything I said because the other guy said something simpler and more agreeable for you, despite being wrong.
The same person who voted you the voice of all men.
But in all seriousness, it's not a matter of who gets to be the judge or not, because that's the kind of silly over simplification you've been doing. They are pointing out that they believe something is wrong with parts of our culture and people are becoming more perceptive of those problems.
Not really.
2dshmuplover
Banned
You can't stop spamming the word oversimplification, can you? Everything anyone says except you of course is oversimplification and thus wrong. It's getting annoying. And yes, I talk on behalf of the HUGE majority of men who don't give a shit about sexualization of either men or women and certainly don't complain about it all the time.
Yes, really.
con·ser·va·tism (kn-sûrv-tzm)
n.
1. The inclination, especially in politics, to maintain the existing or traditional order.
Like I said, on the issue of sex in the media you're no better than republicans.
pharmboy044
Member
Trash? LoL, NO!
ND are the best of the best yet they never look like they take the praise they get for granted.
Their next game is going to be amazing. Period!
TacticalFox88
Banned
So are we really at the point that ANY sexualization is automatically "bad". Come the fuck on. I feel like there's a middle ground here, somewhere.
Forsete
Gold Member
No fucking way, ND is awesome, they just need better PR otherwise this pretentious crap will backfire on them eventually.
edit Although, now I think about it arrogance has many times destroyed even best in any industry, so I really hope they remain level headed.
Y'know what? Overall, I think Last of Us was just a regular third person action game, the only real difference being it's balanced a lot more towards stealth and resource management. The mechanics and controls are really almost the same as most TPSs, TLOU just gives you a lot more ways to fight, noticeably less ammo, and slows down the pace considerably. When it comes to the immersion/action gap created by killing tons of dudes, TLOU handles it about one or two shades better than most games, but it's still there.
I still thought it was really good, but definitely not "game of the generation" tier. For some reason though in my mind Uncharted 2 is still in the running for that award.
I still thought it was really good, but definitely not "game of the generation" tier. For some reason though in my mind Uncharted 2 is still in the running for that award.
faceless007
Member
The things you describe feminists as objecting to are all, by your own admission, extremely pervasive and prevalent in our society, and therefore the status quo. Maintaining the status quo, by definition, cannot be social progress.
razoftblend
Member
Well, the writers are saying they wanted to cnange the industry by NOT using a sexualized, female character. They're not even talking about gameplay mechanics although that still wouldn't make any different from most other TPS games.
HAHAHAHAHAHA
What I'm describing is social progress on sexual matters and the feminists resistance to it which is pretty much what conservatives do too.
According to your logic conservatives aren't conservatives either because they're too fighting the sexual status quo. When the you're fighting a status quo that is pretty progressive then you're part of the problem.
faceless007
Member
http://www.latimes.com/entertainmen...aptist-church-protest-20130911,0,222047.story
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/06/westboro-baptist-church-drag- show_n_3880758.html
I limited my search to the last month but they've been quiet. Of course, now I'm curious to know what extremist vile feminists you're referring to who get greater media attention. We all know who the Phelps are by name.
Well now I don't know who or what exactly you're referring to. But again, there are crazies in all disciplines, and academia tends to attract them due to its safe space. Feminism is not special in this regard.
It might be more more constructive if you were more specific as to what you want anyone to do about them.
I think you have a really strange idea as to what feminism strives for. If you think it is in any way a conservative movement, you've been reading the wrong people.
A lot of people (on both sides) are misconstruing the idea that "women shouldn't be objectified by default" into "no sexualized females in video games!!" which is missing the point entirely. Learned feminists understand that there are underlying factors that contribute to sexist trends in media, but hope that by opening a dialogue through criticism or discussion can help influence people who can make a difference.
When you look at one female character in a game and see that she's sexualized, there's nothing wrong with that. When you look at a whole group of females in games and see that a good majority of them are sexualized, that's a problem. Aside from the lack of variety, it paints a picture of "women are supposed to be this way," which is particularly harmful as a trend.
On topic, I think Naughty Dog might have been able to shift the perception a little in favor of female characters, but it's too early to say. Saying "they didn't do jack shit to the industry" is really premature and honestly extremely short-sighted, considering that we have no idea how it's impacted an industry when it's only a few months old. And those excusing their lack of sexualization because Ellie was a 14 year old girl, remember that they CHOSE to make her 14 years old. It was part of their decision not to make her sexualized, not separate from it, so they should still get credit.
And honestly, how many young girl characters can share the spotlight in a high-budgeted, well-received game? How many can do it without talking the head off of the MC, or without being incredibly annoying? How many young girl characters are there that can hold their own in a difficult situation, on their own talents?
Andrew Korenchkin
Member
Naughty Dog deserves all their praise, but I'll admit that Neil Druckmann...he seems a tad arrogant for my tastes. As amazing as The Last of Us is, I still think I find some of his comments overbearing.
Neil, you are not more talented/better than everybody else. Just stop.
Neil, you are not more talented/better than everybody else. Just stop.
AuthenticM
Member
Well, he did make The Last of Us, so he is clearly more talented than some, I'd say. But that doesn't excuse being haughty and arrogant, of course.
faceless007
Member
Feminists are resisting to pervasive objectification and sexualization, the encouragement of unrealistic body standards, the use of sexualization for titillation in media marketed largely marketed toward pre-adolescents, and the conflation of adhering to gender norms with sexual empowerment. These things are not social progress.
Note that nothing in the preceding paragraph is inherently gender-specific, and almost none of them are inherently wrong. In practice, however, they are predominantly placed upon and inculcated in one gender far more pervasively than the other. This, again, is not social progress.
It's not my logic, it's the definition you cited. By that definition, conservatives are not conservatives. Might this not indicate to you that the argument you are using is oversimplifying things?
If you want to maintain the status quo, what does that make you, by your own definition?
Dark Octave
Banned
So basically the female has to be 14 years old in order to not be viewed and designed in a sexual manner?
I personally didn't find anything attractive about Chloe even if they tried. And the guy from LoU is Drake aged 15 or 20 years. But I guess I see what you're saying though.