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New Xbox One Rumors: PS4 PSN > XBL, snap crashes games, ES RAM life long bottleneck
- Thread starter Interfectum
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Now's the time to buy an Xbox One! If CBOAT is correct, and I fear he is, then MS is going to have to start throwing XBL subs and games at us so hard to compensate... we won't have time to use those monetized apps and TV channels!
500 dollars today... 200 dollars in products tomorrow! (Right before the price drop and the inevitable late goers.)
Also, how impossibly crazy if Xbox said, "Surprise, GDDR5 and we'll fix it up later!" I know I'd wake up! -Adam
500 dollars today... 200 dollars in products tomorrow! (Right before the price drop and the inevitable late goers.)
Also, how impossibly crazy if Xbox said, "Surprise, GDDR5 and we'll fix it up later!" I know I'd wake up! -Adam
NoirVisage
Banned
You're Adam?
mr teaspoon
Member
Agreed, that really surprises me.
lifeexpectancy
Member
I want to know CBOAT's info as well...
This is awesome. Did you make this? Just awesome.
From what I recall of the nearly 4,000 posts I read word for word in the other thread, I don't remember it specifically discussing the Snap function being the main theme. It was more to do with the VOIP being screwed up and the general OS stability being questionable, although this could be seen as an extension of that same OS discussion.
First point: Yes, it is. Because the system was designed for developers to use it. Sure, they can ignore it. And that, in itself, would bottleneck the system considerably.
Second point: Maybe it's all 3? Have you been paying attention?
nillapuddin
Member
well.. lets not get too blankety
famousmortimer
Banned
Oh for fuck's sake. It's not a fallback. Whether or not things get fixed in time we will find out, eventually, how things were looking at this point in time. If I said something like "and this is locked in forever because no further work can be done" I would be 100% full of shit. Software is fluid, it can change. If it works at launch I look like an asshole. If 2 weeks later several journalists post stories about how dire things looked as of 10/29 I'm not an asshole anymore.
I can live with that. I trust my sources. But me saying 'well stuff can be fixed' isn't an out and every single person who wants me to be wrong knows it. I will get an earful if things are fixed by launch even if it is true as of now. IMO this tilts against me, not for me.
If you want any gaming company to fail, then that's disgusting. You should want the industry to grow.
SwiftDeath
Member
Nope mort you were on your own with that
Not a single other source weighing in
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=87786946#post87786946
cboat
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=705667
Yep absolutely no other sources at all
Seriously though I hope MS gets it fixed for launch but doubt it by the sound of it
At least cboat sounded somewhat optimistic shrug
I want to know CBOAT's info as well...
hilarious
Woah, there, Captain Righteous.
This is MS' doing. He enjoys console drama. I do too. That doesn't mean I want the entire division to go under.
GoodCoffeeJoey
Banned
Is there anyway to cancel a Microsoft store pre-order without having to phone them?
Wolves Evolve
Member
Settle down there, handsome Jack. We're here for the circus.
IdiotMyshkin
Banned
Xbox has needed more time for this since they announced it. They should have looked long and hard when they thrashed Adam Orth, it might have been enough time. Not that PS couldn't use more time for networking, dunno if youll be playing shadowfall ln the 15th lol. I think that it's gonna be a slow start for xbox and if they don't catch up by 2014s COD, the COD/Madden market will be spoken for
BeekleMatter
Member
From JackFrags BF4 gameplay.
lifeexpectancy
Member
Why is everyone so concerned that I tabulate the score correctly in this console war? I know there is relatively more shit flooding from one corridor, I'm just saying in general there has been a lot of negative shit coming from everywhere. I'm not saying it's equal proportions or making any claim on that score, 'cause honestly I don't care who is winning on that score. We're all losing anyway
In a sense maybe we're winning after all. Maybe not this gen (can we just call it this gen now? I mean it's two weeks away essentially), but maybe next gen PS4/XB2. I mean if there is another console generation after this one, which there presumably will be, the companies involved might look back and go "man, did we ever underestimate what a hardware launch was going to be like in an age where social media is so prevalent?" and get their ducks more lined up in a nice tidy row before diving into the wading pool.
I'm hoping the after-action on this will make the suits cede control to more capable hands in the future.
Is that part about Kinect from a formal or informal poll you conducted?
Nooooooope. They make it really hard to cancel just about anything.
notoriousKTR
Member
I have been read a crap ton about ESRAM/EDRAM implementation for the use of frame buffer. I have also compared the specs of equivalent AMD GPUs to that of the XBox One GPU and memory configuration. It became very obvious where the problem lies. ESRAM is not at fault; the DDR3 memory is the bottleneck. If you want to talk about balanced, Cerny and team did beautiful job on with the PS4. I can clarify couple confusions about ESRAM.
So the first confusion is about the size and whether or not it is big enough for 1080p. The answer is yes, but just. 1080P has 2,073,600 pixels. 32-bit color depth (R10G10B10A2) is 4 bytes per pixel. Depth and stencil is 2 bytes per pixel. 2x MSAA is 2 bytes per pixel. Multiply all these numbers together, we get the total of 31.6MB. So as you see, it is enough. Now, 2x MSAA is hardly what you call "nextgen", you would expect at least 4x MSAA. Unless Microsoft manages to make an amazing predicated tiling with little or no cost to vertex processing, expect 2x MSAA to be the norm. Based on rumors, ESRAM and tiling is not automatic (yet?) like it is on Xbox 360.
The next confusion is does ESRAM compensate for DDR3. Pennelo's claim that 272 GB/s is the peak bandwidth is a straight up lie. You cannot add the two, it doesn't work like that because ESRAM function is not the same as DDR3. ESRAM holds a single frame; the frame being the resultant of the GPU calculations. It is not necessary to redraw this frame every time, but only modify the pixels that changed while retaining much of the original frame as possible. Things like alpha blending, depth/stencil, and MSAA are considered "free" because they are not heavy on the GPU, but heavy on memory fetches. Hence why ESRAM has crazy bandwidth. Looking at the specs of the 7770/7790 equivalent, maximum memory bandwidth for the 7770 is 72GB/s and 7790 is 96GB/s. Not only is 68GB/s not enough for the GPU alone, it is also shared by the CPU and audio processor. On top of this, you have a considerably slower GPU. Lower IQ and lower performance is a given.
In comparison to the PS4, its 7850/7870 equivalent has the maximum memory bandwidth of 153.6 GB/s and according to The Crew developers, ~20 GB/s is reserved to the CPU. Add these two up, and you can see right away we are in the GDDR5's 176GB/s mark. Balanced.
If anyone has any questions, I can try to answer them.
So the first confusion is about the size and whether or not it is big enough for 1080p. The answer is yes, but just. 1080P has 2,073,600 pixels. 32-bit color depth (R10G10B10A2) is 4 bytes per pixel. Depth and stencil is 2 bytes per pixel. 2x MSAA is 2 bytes per pixel. Multiply all these numbers together, we get the total of 31.6MB. So as you see, it is enough. Now, 2x MSAA is hardly what you call "nextgen", you would expect at least 4x MSAA. Unless Microsoft manages to make an amazing predicated tiling with little or no cost to vertex processing, expect 2x MSAA to be the norm. Based on rumors, ESRAM and tiling is not automatic (yet?) like it is on Xbox 360.
The next confusion is does ESRAM compensate for DDR3. Pennelo's claim that 272 GB/s is the peak bandwidth is a straight up lie. You cannot add the two, it doesn't work like that because ESRAM function is not the same as DDR3. ESRAM holds a single frame; the frame being the resultant of the GPU calculations. It is not necessary to redraw this frame every time, but only modify the pixels that changed while retaining much of the original frame as possible. Things like alpha blending, depth/stencil, and MSAA are considered "free" because they are not heavy on the GPU, but heavy on memory fetches. Hence why ESRAM has crazy bandwidth. Looking at the specs of the 7770/7790 equivalent, maximum memory bandwidth for the 7770 is 72GB/s and 7790 is 96GB/s. Not only is 68GB/s not enough for the GPU alone, it is also shared by the CPU and audio processor. On top of this, you have a considerably slower GPU. Lower IQ and lower performance is a given.
In comparison to the PS4, its 7850/7870 equivalent has the maximum memory bandwidth of 153.6 GB/s and according to The Crew developers, ~20 GB/s is reserved to the CPU. Add these two up, and you can see right away we are in the GDDR5's 176GB/s mark. Balanced.
If anyone has any questions, I can try to answer them.
lifeexpectancy
Member
I don't think the E3 UI was "live" in the sense that it was a feature complete build of the Xbox One's OS. In fact there was probably someone back stage timing video feed switches to coincide with his voice commands, lol.
I kid, I have no way of knowing the validity of that claim. It just wouldn't surprise me at this point. Plus it felt awfully staged at the time even watching it "live".
About what?
That what's broken might be fixed before launch but I guess that's what passes for optimism these days
SwiftDeath
Member
Yeah this
I wouldn't wish a broken launch on anyone
Although I severly doubt it'll be fixed by launch by if cboat says it's possible then it's possible
I don't think Mort is wishing a broken launch on anyone. How did you infer that?
Well to be fair he did say "cool" features. Maybe he thought that would be enough to let people know all those features are working properly. Borked features wouldn't really be very cool at all.
SwiftDeath
Member
Hmm not sure what you mean? I know mort doesn't wish a broken launch on anyone, he has said as much mutliple times
I believed his leak last night enough to spend the entire night collating info into that massive summary
I was joking in my previous post about no other sources
LukasTaves
Member
Your math is correct, but I doubt any of the announced games so far from either console are forward render 1080p at anything above 2x... In deferred render games even 2x is unlikely because you have more buffers to AA, which makes your performance drops like a rock, so for deferred rendered games they are most likely to use some sort of post process AA.
Tiling was not automatic on 360 at first either, or the automatic mode had tremendous performance issues (I can't remember) so I can see that being the case again...
You do realize you have just cited an example above (1080p AA2x) where there is little to no copying data from ddr3 to esram, and that the gpu can utilize all the bandwidth available on both esram and ddr3 at the same time, right?
LukasTaves
Member
Yeah, but then it wouldn't be something that would never be corrected.
What I meant to ask was what bottleneck esram imposes that is just impossible to overcome, like, ever?
TetraGenesis
Member
I've been meaning to say it but your summaries are super awesome and convenient. Thank you, honestly.
Oh! I misinterpreted then.
Version 3.0
Member
Gaming company? Are you sure that description fits Microsoft, or even the Xbox's division, at the moment?
I don't want them to "fail", but if there's any justice in the world, they'll lose a lot of market share to Sony, and have to focus, lose the arrogance, and stop thinking their customers are brainless addicts. Or at least stop thinking that all of their customers are.
Codeblew
Member
Well most people that don't understand how software development really works may not know that you can't give 100% confidence that something is going to be done and working 1 month out. Especially something on the scale of the XB1 OS where you have to work with many internal and external teams to get everything right on 1 specific date. Yeah...... There will always be weak links that hold back progress. I think the only relevant question is, what are they prioritizing to be working on 11/22.
disastermouse
Banned
Why?
professor_t
Member
LOL. I'm actually embarrassed for them, and I know it's their job.
You are going to have to point out what's significant about this, I can't see it.
From JackFrags BF4 gameplay.
You are going to have to point out what's significant about this, I can't see it.
Blurry vs. non blurry I think.
Also PS4 gives you friends.
NingenJanai
Member
You are going to have to point out what's significant about this, I can't see it.
Bluriness
notoriousKTR
Member
Yep, (as mentioned) unless Microsoft somehow makes tiling with little to no cost on the XBox One. If not, consider AA as a luxury.
Let me rephrase here. Saying DDR3 feeds ESRAM might not be the choice of words to describe why you can't really combine the two bandwidths. The GPU can access both ESRAM and DDR3 as the same time, but ESRAM function is not the same as DDR3. ESRAM holds a single frame; the frame being the resultant of the GPU calculations. It is not necessary to redraw this frame every time, but only modify the pixels that changed while retaining much of the original frame as possible. Things like alpha blending, depth/stencil, and MSAA are considered "free" because they are not heavy on the GPU, but heavy on memory fetches. Hence why ESRAM has crazy bandwidth.
You are going to have to point out what's significant about this, I can't see it.
Resolution differences obvious by the sharpness of the icons, I assume.
In terms of frame buffer size, the eDRAM on 360 was even worse, but devs managed.. Deferred renderers @ 720p where used by some devs. On top of this MS where supposed to have improved things to make it even more flexible, but as you point out, current API's and tools are lagging.. hopefully they'll get it sorted soon enough.
Of course you can legitimately add the bandwidth.. The GPU can be using 100% of the ESRAM bandwidth while the CPU additionally can consume the full bandwidth of the DDR3.. PS4 just shares the bandwidth as/when it needs to which is more flexible..
Yes, I am sure devs of either system will talk up how they got the most out of it, and how great it is.. although I do agree that PS4 is the better architecture.
Being honest, you sound agenda laden, so I don't think we'd get any straight answers..
There's no way anyone's going to only use 2 bytes a pixel for both depth and stencil. If they're using depth, it's going to be at least 16-bits, and stencil will be at least 8 if they're using it. In all likelihood though, especially if you want depth fidelity in the little details, they're probably going to use a 32-bit depth buffer for 4 bytes/pixel. MSAA is also not just an extra two bytes per pixel. MSAA implies that you'll have to allocate enough memory for every sample (even if the samples are unused), so that's another 4 bytes per pixel for color and at least another 1 byte per pixel for the coverage mask. But MSAA isn't just the render target, you'll also need extra space for the samples in your depth/stencil buffers as well.
I honestly don't see any sort of HD MSAA really fitting into ESRAM. AA at higher resolutions on the XB1 will probably be post-processing based rather than sample based.
AA is overrated at 1080p anyway, especially on a TV.
I thought there are more display planes on the xbone so the UI should still stay sharp? Guess I am wrong.
notoriousKTR
Member
Heh, it sounds one sided because the result is one sided as we see in the BF4 comparisons. I am just trying to put some reasoning behind the rumors. I don't think ESRAM is the bottleneck.
Maybe I should post a disclaimer that I am not invested or interested in either systems. PC master race represent.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
1080p 2xMSAA is as much "nextgen" as I hoped for, considering we were coming from a gen where 720p was barely ever hit. Personally when I play PC games, if I'm not hitting 60FPS the very first thing I turn down is the AA. Unaliased 1080p jaggies are far less bad than the 900p or 720p jaggies that you see in the BF4 comparison thread, since you're working with higher detail and don't have to worry about post process upscaling.
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