Chat transcript:
LH: Hey Albert, is snap working yet?
AP: Nope.
LH: Uh oh. How about game switching?
AP: That's still fucked.
LH: Oh. What about Game DVR?
AP: Dunno, I don't have a Live Gold sub.
Bravo.
Chat transcript:
LH: Hey Albert, is snap working yet?
AP: Nope.
LH: Uh oh. How about game switching?
AP: That's still fucked.
LH: Oh. What about Game DVR?
AP: Dunno, I don't have a Live Gold sub.
Thank you. Someone else will be able to buy itNo custom backgrounds and resume/suspend isn't available on day 1. I canceled my pre-order after hearing about that.
You're Adam?Now's the time to buy an Xbox One! If CBOAT is correct, and I fear he is, then MS is going to have to start throwing XBL subs and games at us so hard to compensate... we won't have time to use those monetized apps and TV channels!
500 dollars today... 200 dollars in products tomorrow! (Right before the price drop and the inevitable late goers.)
Also, how impossibly crazy if Xbox said, "Surprise, GDDR5 and we'll fix it up later!" I know I'd wake up! -Adam
On topic, it's incredible if PSN is ahead of XBL at launch, just unthinkable given the gap last gen.
I want to know CBOAT's info as well...
Second, the esRAM IS NOT A BOTTLENECK and conceptually CANT BE A BOTTLENECK. It is an ADDITIONAL resource available to devs, it is not required which means it will absolutely NEVER be a bottleneck to the system which makes the second tweet utter bullshit.
The fact is I've heard that the bottleneck is at least 3 different things, which means nobody actually knows what the bottleneck in the system is.
Xbox Live better be running great day one, with smooth transitions between programming. The PS4 already trumps the Xbox one with graphics, and since no one cares about the new Kinect... Xbox Live will be their only saving grace.
Exactly the point raised in the FamousMortimer thread earlier today. Always a fallback.
These past few days have been glorious. Can't wait to see what the future beholds.
Oh for fuck's sake. It's not a fallback. Whether or not things get fixed in time we will find out, eventually, how things were looking at this point in time. If I said something like "and this is locked in forever because no further work can be done" I would be 100% full of shit. Software is fluid, it can change. If it works at launch I look like an asshole. If 2 weeks later several journalists post stories about how dire things looked as of 10/29 I'm not an asshole anymore.
I can live with that. I trust my sources. But me saying 'well stuff can be fixed' isn't an out and every single person who wants me to be wrong knows it. I will get an earful if things are fixed by launch even if it is true as of now. IMO this tilts against me, not for me.
I want to know CBOAT's info as well...
Woah, there, Captain Righteous.If you want any gaming company to fail, then that's disgusting. You should want the industry to grow.
If you want any gaming company to fail, then that's disgusting. You should want the industry to grow.
Why is everyone so concerned that I tabulate the score correctly in this console war? I know there is relatively more shit flooding from one corridor, I'm just saying in general there has been a lot of negative shit coming from everywhere. I'm not saying it's equal proportions or making any claim on that score, 'cause honestly I don't care who is winning on that score. We're all losing anyway
Xbox Live better be running great day one, with smooth transitions between programming. The PS4 already trumps the Xbox one with graphics, and since no one cares about the new Kinect... Xbox Live will be their only saving grace.
Is there anyway to cancel a Microsoft store pre-order without having to phone them?
And MS had a live UI running at E3 in June. Doesn't mean that it was feature complete.
Nope mort you were on your own with that
Not a single other source weighing in
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=87786946#post87786946
cboat
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=705667
Yep absolutely no other sources at all
Seriously though I hope MS gets it fixed for launch but doubt it by the sound of it
At least cboat sounded somewhat optimistic shrug
About what?
About what?
That what's broken might be fixed before launch but I guess that's what passes for optimism these days
Yeah this
I wouldn't wish a broken launch on anyone
Although I severly doubt it'll be fixed by launch by if cboat says it's possible then it's possible
I don't think Mort is wishing a broken launch on anyone. How did you infer that?
Your math is correct, but I doubt any of the announced games so far from either console are forward render 1080p at anything above 2x... In deferred render games even 2x is unlikely because you have more buffers to AA, which makes your performance drops like a rock, so for deferred rendered games they are most likely to use some sort of post process AA.I have been read a crap ton about ESRAM/EDRAM implementation for the use of frame buffer. I have also compared the specs of equivalent AMD GPUs to that of the XBox One GPU and memory configuration. It became very obvious where the problem lies. ESRAM is not at fault; the DDR3 memory is the bottleneck. If you want to talk about balanced, Cerny and team did beautiful job on with the PS4. I can clarify couple confusions about ESRAM.
So the first confusion is about the size and whether or not it is big enough for 1080p. The answer is yes, but just. 1080P has 2,073,600 pixels. 32-bit color depth (R10G10B10A2) is 4 bytes per pixel. Depth and stencil is 2 bytes per pixel. 2x MSAA is 2 bytes per pixel. Multiply all these numbers together, we get the total of 31.6MB. So as you see, it is enough. Now, 2x MSAA is hardly what you call "nextgen", you would expect at least 4x MSAA. Unless Microsoft manages to make an amazing predicated tiling with little or no cost to vertex processing, expect 2x MSAA to be the norm. Based on rumors, ESRAM and tiling is not automatic (yet?) like it is on Xbox 360.
You do realize you have just cited an example above (1080p AA2x) where there is little to no copying data from ddr3 to esram, and that the gpu can utilize all the bandwidth available on both esram and ddr3 at the same time, right?The next confusion is does ESRAM compensate for DDR3. Pennelo's claim that 272 GB/s is the peak bandwidth is a straight up lie. You cannot add the two, it doesn't work like that because the DDR3 feeds data to the ESRAM. Looking at the specs of the 7770/7790 equivalent, maximum memory bandwidth for the 7770 is 72GB/s and 7790 is 96GB/s. Not only is 68GB/s not enough for the GPU alone, it is also shared by the CPU and audio processor. On top of this, you have a considerably slower GPU. Lower IQ and lower performance is a given.
In comparison to the PS4, its 7850/7870 equivalent has the maximum memory bandwidth of 153.6 GB/s and according to The Crew developers, ~20 GB/s is reserved to the CPU. Add these two up, and you can see right away we are in the GDDR5's 176GB/s mark. Balanced.
If anyone has any questions, I can try to answer them.
Nothing that automatically handled tiling until the very latest dx release for it would mean a lower res ensuring it's not an issue. Could be a factor.
Hmm not sure what you mean? I know mort doesn't wish a broken launch on anyone, he has said as much mutliple times
I believed his leak last night enough to spend the entire night collating info into that massive summary
I was joking in my previous post about no other sources
Hmm not sure what you mean? I know mort doesn't wish a broken launch on anyone, he has said as much mutliple times
I believed his leak last night enough to spend the entire night collating info into that massive summary
I was joking in my previous post about no other sources
If you want any gaming company to fail, then that's disgusting. You should want the industry to grow.
I can live with that. I trust my sources. But me saying 'well stuff can be fixed' isn't an out and every single person who wants me to be wrong knows it. I will get an earful if things are fixed by launch even if it is true as of now. IMO this tilts against me, not for me.
If you want any gaming company to fail, then that's disgusting. You should want the industry to grow.
No script there, just some buddies chatting it up over some beers.
lifeexpectancy said:This is awesome. Did you make this? Just awesome.
From what I recall of the nearly 4,000 posts I read word for word in the other thread, I don't remember it specifically discussing the Snap function being the main theme. It was more to do with the VOIP being screwed up and the general OS stability being questionable, although this could be seen as an extension of that same OS discussion.
You are going to have to point out what's significant about this, I can't see it.
From JackFrags BF4 gameplay.
You are going to have to point out what's significant about this, I can't see it.
You are going to have to point out what's significant about this, I can't see it.
Tiling was not automatic on 360 at first either, or the automatic mode had tremendous performance issues (I can't remember) so I can see that being the case again...
You do realize you have just cited an example above (1080p AA2x) where there is little to no copying data from ddr3 to esram, and that the gpu can utilize all the bandwidth available on both esram and ddr3 at the same time, right?
You are going to have to point out what's significant about this, I can't see it.
In terms of frame buffer size, the eDRAM on 360 was even worse, but devs managed.. Deferred renderers @ 720p where used by some devs. On top of this MS where supposed to have improved things to make it even more flexible, but as you point out, current API's and tools are lagging.. hopefully they'll get it sorted soon enough.So the first confusion is about the size and whether or not it is big enough for 1080p. The answer is yes, but just. 1080P has 2,073,600 pixels. 32-bit color depth (R10G10B10A2) is 4 bytes per pixel. Depth and stencil is 2 bytes per pixel. 2x MSAA is 2 bytes per pixel. Multiply all these numbers together, we get the total of 31.6MB. So as you see, it is enough. Now, 2x MSAA is hardly what you call "nextgen", you would expect at least 4x MSAA. Unless Microsoft manages to make an amazing predicated tiling with little or no cost to vertex processing, expect 2x MSAA to be the norm. Based on rumors, ESRAM and tiling is not automatic (yet?) like it is on Xbox 360.
Of course you can legitimately add the bandwidth.. The GPU can be using 100% of the ESRAM bandwidth while the CPU additionally can consume the full bandwidth of the DDR3.. PS4 just shares the bandwidth as/when it needs to which is more flexible..The next confusion is does ESRAM compensate for DDR3. Pennelo's claim that 272 GB/s is the peak bandwidth is a straight up lie. You cannot add the two, it doesn't work like that because the DDR3 feeds data to the ESRAM. Looking at the specs of the 7770/7790 equivalent, maximum memory bandwidth for the 7770 is 72GB/s and 7790 is 96GB/s. Not only is 68GB/s not enough for the GPU alone, it is also shared by the CPU and audio processor. On top of this, you have a considerably slower GPU. Lower IQ and lower performance is a given.
Yes, I am sure devs of either system will talk up how they got the most out of it, and how great it is.. although I do agree that PS4 is the better architecture.In comparison to the PS4, its 7850/7870 equivalent has the maximum memory bandwidth of 153.6 GB/s and according to The Crew developers, ~20 GB/s is reserved to the CPU. Add these two up, and you can see right away we are in the GDDR5's 176GB/s mark. Balanced.
Being honest, you sound agenda laden, so I don't think we'd get any straight answers..If anyone has any questions, I can try to answer them.
I have been read a crap ton about ESRAM/EDRAM implementation for the use of frame buffer. I have also compared the specs of equivalent AMD GPUs to that of the XBox One GPU and memory configuration. It became very obvious where the problem lies. ESRAM is not at fault; the DDR3 memory is the bottleneck. If you want to talk about balanced, Cerny and team did beautiful job on with the PS4. I can clarify couple confusions about ESRAM.
So the first confusion is about the size and whether or not it is big enough for 1080p. The answer is yes, but just. 1080P has 2,073,600 pixels. 32-bit color depth (R10G10B10A2) is 4 bytes per pixel. Depth and stencil is 2 bytes per pixel. 2x MSAA is 2 bytes per pixel. Multiply all these numbers together, we get the total of 31.6MB. So as you see, it is enough. Now, 2x MSAA is hardly what you call "nextgen", you would expect at least 4x MSAA. Unless Microsoft manages to make an amazing predicated tiling with little or no cost to vertex processing, expect 2x MSAA to be the norm. Based on rumors, ESRAM and tiling is not automatic (yet?) like it is on Xbox 360.
The next confusion is does ESRAM compensate for DDR3. Pennelo's claim that 272 GB/s is the peak bandwidth is a straight up lie. You cannot add the two, it doesn't work like that because the DDR3 feeds data to the ESRAM. Looking at the specs of the 7770/7790 equivalent, maximum memory bandwidth for the 7770 is 72GB/s and 7790 is 96GB/s. Not only is 68GB/s not enough for the GPU alone, it is also shared by the CPU and audio processor. On top of this, you have a considerably slower GPU. Lower IQ and lower performance is a given.
In comparison to the PS4, its 7850/7870 equivalent has the maximum memory bandwidth of 153.6 GB/s and according to The Crew developers, ~20 GB/s is reserved to the CPU. Add these two up, and you can see right away we are in the GDDR5's 176GB/s mark. Balanced.
If anyone has any questions, I can try to answer them.
Your math is correct, but I doubt any of the announced games so far from either console are forward render 1080p at anything above 2x... In deferred render games even 2x is unlikely because you have more buffers to AA, which makes your performance drops like a rock, so for deferred rendered games they are most likely to use some sort of post process AA.
Tiling was not automatic on 360 at first either, or the automatic mode had tremendous performance issues (I can't remember) so I can see that being the case again...
You do realize you have just cited an example above (1080p AA2x) where there is little to no copying data from ddr3 to esram, and that the gpu can utilize all the bandwidth available on both esram and ddr3 at the same time, right?
Resolution differences obvious by the sharpness of the icons, I assume.
Being honest, you sound agenda laden, so I don't think we'd get any straight answers..
AA is overrated at 1080p anyway, especially on a TV.
So the first confusion is about the size and whether or not it is big enough for 1080p. The answer is yes, but just. 1080P has 2,073,600 pixels. 32-bit color depth (R10G10B10A2) is 4 bytes per pixel. Depth and stencil is 2 bytes per pixel. 2x MSAA is 2 bytes per pixel. Multiply all these numbers together, we get the total of 31.6MB. So as you see, it is enough. Now, 2x MSAA is hardly what you call "nextgen", you would expect at least 4x MSAA. Unless Microsoft manages to make an amazing predicated tiling with little or no cost to vertex processing, expect 2x MSAA to be the norm. Based on rumors, ESRAM and tiling is not automatic (yet?) like it is on Xbox 360.