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[StrikeNinja24]

A well-balanced breakfast, being necessary to a healthy body, the right of the people to keep and eat cereal shall not be infringed.

The whole point must be to only allow a well-balanced breakfast to eat cereal.

This is a painful level of whataboutism here. When's the last time cereal killed 17 kids?

Here's the thing: Everyone's kind of getting sick of the government and law enforcement doing FUCKING NOTHING everytime there's a mass shooting. Always "Thoughts and Prayers", because they are too cheap and cowards to make any kind of change that might be considered "hurting one's rights". If someone is actually arguing a right is more important than a need, I suggest trying not eating for a while and see how that thought holds up. Maybe your precious rights will throw you a water bottle after the third day.

So hey, we going to deal with absolutes and broad strokes? Ok, let's play: Everyone who thinks there should be less gun regulation or no gun regulations at all, these kids' blood is at least partly on your hands. Let's really get into the mood here if we are going to do this.

 

[infinitys_7th]

Ok, let's play: Everyone who thinks there should be less gun regulation or no gun regulations at all, these kids' blood is at least partly on your hands. Let's really get into the mood here if we are going to do this.

Nope, not even a drop. Responsibility does not work like that.

 

[StrikeNinja24]

Nope, not even a drop. Responsibility does not work like that.

Sure is if you're going to claim that every one of the million kids out there hate your rights and want to take away your penis compensators I mean guns.

This falls on both sides. If you're going to make broad strokes, expect to have them thrown back at you. The issue at hand, and the marches being done, are because in large NOTHING is being done on the matter. Any sort of legislation should of been passed and signed already. Hell, NJ just passed 6 gun regulation laws.

6 of them.

 

[J Bro]

This is a painful level of whataboutism here. When's the last time cereal killed 17 kids?

Here's the thing: Everyone's kind of getting sick of the government and law enforcement doing FUCKING NOTHING everytime there's a mass shooting. Always "Thoughts and Prayers", because they are too cheap and cowards to make any kind of change that might be considered "hurting one's rights". If someone is actually arguing a right is more important than a need, I suggest trying not eating for a while and see how that thought holds up. Maybe your precious rights will throw you a water bottle after the third day.

So hey, we going to deal with absolutes and broad strokes? Ok, let's play: Everyone who thinks there should be less gun regulation or no gun regulations at all, these kids' blood is at least partly on your hands. Let's really get into the mood here if we are going to do this.

Maybe you should go back and learn what whataboutism is before posting.

 

[Spheyr]

Maybe you should go back and learn what whataboutism is before posting.

Seriously.... buhhwha?

Everyone who thinks there should be less gun regulation or no gun regulations at all, these kids' blood is at least partly on your hands. Let's really get into the mood here if we are going to do this.

I've got my own sins, I don't need anyone else's.

 

[StrikeNinja24]

Maybe you should go back and learn what whataboutism is before posting.

(also known as whataboutery) is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument, which is particularly associated with Soviet and Russian propaganda.

Off the first link on google.

The post was to discredit a statement about the actual wording of the amendment, claiming an unrelated statement about breakfast to disprove the argument and discredit the statement, without actually talking about the amendment itself.

Looks accurate to me.

Not my fault ya made a shit point.

 

[StrikeNinja24]

Seriously.... buhhwha?



I've got my own sins, I don't need anyone else's.

Yea, you don't get to choose that though. Results speak for themselves.

 

[Spheyr]

(also known as whataboutery) is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument, which is particularly associated with Soviet and Russian propaganda.

Off the first link on google.

The post was to discredit a statement about the actual wording of the amendment, claiming an unrelated statement about breakfast to disprove the argument and discredit the statement, without actually talking about the amendment itself.

Looks accurate to me.

Not my fault ya made a shit point.

No, it was explaining its meaning to someone who didn't understand using a different sentence with the same structure.

 

[StrikeNinja24]

No, it was explaining its meaning to someone who didn't understand using a different sentence with the same structure.

It's an apples to orange comparison that has nothing to do with the original context.

 

[Spheyr]

It's an apples to orange comparison that has nothing to do with the original context.

Oh my god.

 

[StrikeNinja24]

Oh my god.

Truth hurts huh?

 

[Spheyr]

Truth hurts huh?

No, your complete lack of understanding things is just... mesmerizing. He didn't say it's a "valid comparison," nor did I say he was bringing it up in context. I said he used a different sentence with the same structure to explain the sentence structure used in the Second Amendment.

His example had nothing to do with guns, crime, or anything. It didn't have to. It was basically a sentence diagramming exercise.

Do you understand diagramming sentences?

 

[StrikeNinja24]

No, your complete lack of understanding things is just... mesmerizing. He didn't say it's a "valid comparison," nor did I say he was bringing it up in context. I said he used a different sentence with the same structure to explain the sentence structure used in the Second Amendment.

His example had nothing to do with guns, crime, or anything. It didn't have to. It was basically a sentence diagramming exercise.

Do you understand diagramming sentences?

You're really going to explain sentence structuring from the fucking 1700s and try to apply them to today's standards to say that there's some deeper meaning in the statement? In a sloppy manner like that?

This is pathetic, even by alt right standards.

Nah, scratch that, it's on par.

 

[Spheyr]

Oh no, here come the big boy words, to show how not mad he is.

 

[StrikeNinja24]

Oh no, here come the big boy words, to show how not mad he is.

Don't worry, I know you don't have a clue what you're talking about. It's hard to be mad at you because of that.

 

[Cleared_Hot]

The media really needs to stop parading these kids around like heroes. I am sorry for what they endured. But they are definitely not experts on anything, let alone be allowed to potentially provoke policy change. They're practicing their first amendment rights which is awesome!! But the media needs to stop making them out to be the experts on the matter.

 

[TheLaughingStock]

"Never Again"?
Yep these are children.

It's going to happen again this year. So, they're probably ashamed, depressed and heating up their rhetoric to move the needle on the gun issue. Also, knowing how so many kids behave towards each other, I'm sure some are getting teased online by non-Americans.

It must be tough knowing there are a lot of well-off kids that don't have to worry about nor experience what they're feeling. Of course people have taken steps to get their act together and bring this sort of violence down around the world, but for whatever reason it isn't happening in America. It's a sad situation and I hope they see some success because you only get to be a kid in this world once.

 

[Spheyr]

It's not the guns committing violence, it's the people who are sick. Liberal degeneracy is what leads to school shootings.

 

[StrikeNinja24]

It's not the guns committing violence, it's the people who are sick. Liberal degeneracy is what leads to school shootings.

So what's being done about the 'sick' people?

Here's the thing: People know guns aren't the ones going around killing people without someone to pull the trigger.

It's just that people aren't really trustworthy and honestly responsible enough to make proper decisions.

People screw something up everyday. Just so happens when you have a gun out that screw up can lead to someone being dead.

So want a gun? Pass the tests and put in served time in the military for 6 months or so. You get to shoot 'bad' people and be patriotic at the same time!

Though I doubt most gun enthusiasts could survive basic training.

 

[Spheyr]

Can you make a single post without throwing out unnecessary insults/accusations?

 

[Cleared_Hot]

So what's being done about the 'sick' people?

Here's the thing: People know guns aren't the ones going around killing people without someone to pull the trigger.

It's just that people aren't really trustworthy and honestly responsible enough to make proper decisions.

People screw something up everyday. Just so happens when you have a gun out that screw up can lead to someone being dead.

So want a gun? Pass the tests and put in served time in the military for 6 months or so. You get to shoot 'bad' people and be patriotic at the same time!

Though I doubt most gun enthusiasts could survive basic training.

One of the dumbest posts I've ever read on here.

 

[StrikeNinja24]

Can you make a single post without throwing out unnecessary insults/accusations?

From the guy who literally just blamed liberals for school shootings?

 

[StrikeNinja24]

One of the dumbest posts I've ever read on here.

How so? They are properly trained and you support America. You can deal with crisis situations better for self defense because just buying one doesn't make you John Wick.

It's basically the conservatives dream.

 

[LegendOfKage]

From the guy who literally just blamed liberals for school shootings?

Some conservatives seem to blame "liberals" for the decline of our society. I think the argument is that liberals have removed God and proper values from our education system, and the value of life was removed with it.

Not that I'm making that claim, but that's the argument. I'd like to hear your thoughts, though. Why do you feel school shootings are a thing now?

I already mentioned that in the last 36 years of school shootings, an average of 4.38 children have died in mass school shootings per year, but it's interesting to note that mass school shootings weren't really a thing that happened in the US until about 1966. People killed their bullies, students killed specific teachers, and principles killed specific teachers. There were shootings, but every shooting was intentional and the victims were generally limited to one or two. Some years saw one or two deaths, and some saw nobody killed.

But starting in 1966, mass shootings started to happen. And even after the 60s, they were exceptionally rare until becoming somewhat more common in the 90s until today. It wasn't until recently when there were people who decided to kill as many random students as possible. Look at the data yourself:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States#1980s

This is what people mean when they suggest that school shootings aren't a result of guns. We've had guns in this country since it's inception. We've had six-shooter revolvers since about 1836, and we didn't have anyone taking two of them to school and randomly killing 8 of their fellow classmates with 12 bullets. That didn't happen with school children, it didn't happen with people in college, it simply didn't happen.

So what changed? Why did this start happening? What do you think is the answer? Again, I'd like to hear your thoughts.

 

[appaws]

Sure is if you're going to claim that every one of the million kids out there hate your rights and want to take away your penis compensators I mean guns.

This falls on both sides. If you're going to make broad strokes, expect to have them thrown back at you. The issue at hand, and the marches being done, are because in large NOTHING is being done on the matter. Any sort of legislation should of been passed and signed already. Hell, NJ just passed 6 gun regulation laws.

6 of them.

And how soon do you think this means you will be able to walk down the street at night in Asbury Park or Newark?

 

[Ke0]

Some conservatives seem to blame "liberals" for the decline of our society. I think the argument is that liberals have removed God and proper values from our education system, and the value of life was removed with it.

Not that I'm making that claim, but that's the argument. I'd like to hear your thoughts, though. Why do you feel school shootings are a thing now?

I already mentioned that in the last 36 years of school shootings, an average of 4.38 children have died in mass school shootings per year, but it's interesting to note that mass school shootings weren't really a thing that happened in the US until about 1966. People killed their bullies, students killed specific teachers, and principles killed specific teachers. There were shootings, but every shooting was intentional and the victims were generally limited to one or two. Some years saw one or two deaths, and some saw nobody killed.

But starting in 1966, mass shootings started to happen. And even after the 60s, they were exceptionally rare until becoming somewhat more common in the 90s until today. It wasn't until recently when there were people who decided to kill as many random students as possible. Look at the data yourself:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States#1980s

This is what people mean when they suggest that school shootings aren't a result of guns. We've had guns in this country since it's inception. We've had six-shooter revolvers since about 1836, and we didn't have anyone taking two of them to school and randomly killing 8 of their fellow classmates with 12 bullets. That didn't happen with school children, it didn't happen with people in college, it simply didn't happen.

So what changed? Why did this start happening? What do you think is the answer? Again, I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Well when you apply the whole "it's liberals fault our country is so bad now" broadly it has some pretty questionable undertones. It indirectly suggests that the country went downhill because the liberal ideology:
Decided that women should be able to vote
Decided that black people should be able to vote
That black people deserve equal rights
That the US deserves some measure of a social safety net
That there should be a minimal working age
That the middle class needs to happen
That companies must treat workers fairly

Any time I read posts on Reddit and other websites from conservatives who point to these various times in the past as to when America is better, I have to often remind them that the only reason they perceive that things were "better" then was because rights were only given to a few. Many of the rules and regulations people want to bring back from those time periods only worked specifically because of the climate of the time as it pertains to which groups were allowed to benefit from them.

America is a two party system and similarly throughout its history it's only had two ideologies at any given time, they taken on many names but at their base it's either been to progress and try new unknown things, or be conservative in approach because that's what's worked and made the country great. Having both is what made your country work. They keep each other in check. America would be terrible if progressive/liberal ideas never flourished here, and likewise your country would be terrible if conservativism didn't keep progressive/liberal ideas in check.

People who blame all the woes of the US on liberalism or conservatism exclusively are just really stupid people.

 

[infinitys_7th]

Can you make a single post without throwing out unnecessary insults/accusations?

I stopped caring about his argument when he threw out the Freudian shit (i.e. "hur dur gunz r pen0rz!1!").

You know someone has nothing of value to say when they utilize the erotic fantasies of Freud the Fraud as an argument.

 

[gohepcat]

Most or all of these mass shootings are in 'gun free zones', obviously the law is doing a great job keeping guns out of potential perps already. Rolls Eyes.

None of those countries have a crime-ridden narcostate to the south or a war on drugs to generate crime through prohibition. Or nearly as large levels of deep poverty.

In fact, there is no correlation between gun ownership and gun murders anywhere, per the article I posted earlier:

https://medium.com/@bjcampbell/ever...tween-gun-ownership-and-homicide-1108ed400be5

Who the fuck is BJ Campbell and why should I trust that he's giving me good information? Do you have any links sources with an actual history? What is Medium's editorial policy?

This is precisely the problem. You found an article that perfectly fits with what you want to be true and now that's the one that you choose to believe.

 

[Spheyr]

Well when you apply the whole "it's liberals fault our country is so bad now" broadly it has some pretty questionable undertones. It indirectly suggests that the country went downhill because the liberal ideology:
Decided that women should be able to vote
Decided that black people should be able to vote
That black people deserve equal rights
That the US deserves some measure of a social safety net
That there should be a minimal working age
That the middle class needs to happen
That companies must treat workers fairly

Any time I read posts on Reddit and other websites from conservatives who point to these various times in the past as to when America is better, I have to often remind them that the only reason they perceive that things were "better" then was because rights were only given to a few. Many of the rules and regulations people want to bring back from those time periods only worked specifically because of the climate of the time as it pertains to which groups were allowed to benefit from them.

America is a two party system and similarly throughout its history it's only had two ideologies at any given time, they taken on many names but at their base it's either been to progress and try new unknown things, or be conservative in approach because that's what's worked and made the country great. Having both is what made your country work. They keep each other in check. America would be terrible if progressive/liberal ideas never flourished here, and likewise your country would be terrible if conservativism didn't keep progressive/liberal ideas in check.

People who blame all the woes of the US on liberalism or conservatism exclusively are just really stupid people.

See, you specifically point out it's the liberal degeneracy that's caused it, and they immediately retreat to "B-B-B-B-BUT WE GAVE THE VOTE TO WOMEN! HOW CAN YOU HATE LIBERALS FOR THAT!"


Nobody said a goddamn word about anything but degeneracy.

 

[infinitys_7th]

Who the fuck is BJ Campbell and why should I trust that he's giving me good information? Do you have any links sources with an actual history? What is Medium's editorial policy?

This is precisely the problem. You found an article that perfectly fits with what you want to be true and now that's the one that you choose to believe.

I choose to acknowledge actual data and facts. He is a statistician, and he lists exactly where the data came from in every analysis, so because your complaint that he id not "providing sources" proves either a lack of reading comprehension or a lack of having even read the article on your part.

Do you have any actual evidence to counter his thorough debunking of the relationship between gun ownership and gun-caused murders?

He also points out the exact statistical
tricks used to paint that false correlation - grouping suicides in with murders and estimating gun ownership based off of the proportion of gun-caused suicides rather than, you know, actual readily available ownership data.

 

[Musky_Cheese]

Who the fuck is BJ Campbell and why should I trust that he's giving me good information? Do you have any links sources with an actual history? What is Medium's editorial policy?

This is precisely the problem. You found an article that perfectly fits with what you want to be true and now that's the one that you choose to believe.

I read through the link. To be fair, it's in line with the CDC research.

 

[appaws]

Well when you apply the whole "it's liberals fault our country is so bad now" broadly it has some pretty questionable undertones. It indirectly suggests that the country went downhill because the liberal ideology:
Decided that women should be able to vote
Decided that black people should be able to vote
That black people deserve equal rights
That the US deserves some measure of a social safety net
That there should be a minimal working age
That the middle class needs to happen
That companies must treat workers fairly

Any time I read posts on Reddit and other websites from conservatives who point to these various times in the past as to when America is better, I have to often remind them that the only reason they perceive that things were "better" then was because rights were only given to a few. Many of the rules and regulations people want to bring back from those time periods only worked specifically because of the climate of the time as it pertains to which groups were allowed to benefit from them.

America is a two party system and similarly throughout its history it's only had two ideologies at any given time, they taken on many names but at their base it's either been to progress and try new unknown things, or be conservative in approach because that's what's worked and made the country great. Having both is what made your country work. They keep each other in check. America would be terrible if progressive/liberal ideas never flourished here, and likewise your country would be terrible if conservativism didn't keep progressive/liberal ideas in check.

People who blame all the woes of the US on liberalism or conservatism exclusively are just really stupid people.

Those things are not what people are talking about. Specifically, what I always cite is the driving of Christianity out of the public sphere and replacing it with ???? People seem to think you can replace it with pure secularism....but I note that at some level we have replaced Christian virtue with worship of self. Whatever I want is more important than anything else. Human beings cannot live without God....so when God the Father is removed, we replace him by elevating ourselves to the spot.

John Adams said that we could not maintain this republic if the people were not Christian. He was 100% correct.

This is the biggest reason why a country that has had armed civilians since day one suddenly sees an uptake in senseless killings.

 

[LegendOfKage]

America is a two party system and similarly throughout its history it's only had two ideologies at any given time, they taken on many names but at their base it's either been to progress and try new unknown things, or be conservative in approach because that's what's worked and made the country great. Having both is what made your country work. They keep each other in check. America would be terrible if progressive/liberal ideas never flourished here, and likewise your country would be terrible if conservativism didn't keep progressive/liberal ideas in check.

I completely agree. Although what we think of as conservative / liberal ideologies have changed a lot over the years, Americas political system does a good job at keeping things balanced.

Please don't think I was suggesting, "well, if you can't explain school shootings, then it must be the liberals" or anything of the sort. As I said, I was just explaining that line of thinking.

But again, what do you think is causing school shootings to happen now? Without trying to blame such things on anyone's political opponents, I think it's a very interesting question.

 

[Ke0]

I completely agree. Although what we think of as conservative / liberal ideologies have changed a lot over the years, Americas political system does a good job at keeping things balanced.

Please don't think I was suggesting, "well, if you can't explain school shootings, then it must be the liberals" or anything of the sort. As I said, I was just explaining that line of thinking.

But again, what do you think is causing school shootings to happen now? Without trying to blame such things on anyone's political opponents, I think it's a very interesting question.

What's causing school shootings now I can't really say because I don't live in the US. I wouldn't strictly look at it as "liberal/conservative ideology" itself as the reason bc that just lazy without looking into specific factors.

Those things are not what people are talking about. Specifically, what I always cite is the driving of Christianity out of the public sphere and replacing it with ???? People seem to think you can replace it with pure secularism....but I note that at some level we have replaced Christian virtue with worship of self. Whatever I want is more important than anything else. Human beings cannot live without God....so when God the Father is removed, we replace him by elevating ourselves to the spot.

John Adams said that we could not maintain this republic if the people were not Christian. He was 100% correct.

This is the biggest reason why a country that has had armed civilians since day one suddenly sees an uptake in senseless killings.

Sorry but blaming saying this is all because they don't teach about the Christian variation of god doesn't make any sense, and at best suggests that unlike other humans on Earth, Americans are more genetically predisposed to violence if they're not told not to be violent via the Bible In public spaces.

Sorry but religion has nothing to do with this, because if that were true then you would have had school shootings galore prior to the cold war.

 

[bigedole]

Those things are not what people are talking about. Specifically, what I always cite is the driving of Christianity out of the public sphere and replacing it with ???? People seem to think you can replace it with pure secularism....but I note that at some level we have replaced Christian virtue with worship of self. Whatever I want is more important than anything else. Human beings cannot live without God....so when God the Father is removed, we replace him by elevating ourselves to the spot.

John Adams said that we could not maintain this republic if the people were not Christian. He was 100% correct.

This is the biggest reason why a country that has had armed civilians since day one suddenly sees an uptake in senseless killings.

I'm sure you're aware just how subjective the opinion you expressed is. Saying "He was 100% correct." is just....weird? Like, you literally can never prove that statement, ever. Personally, I believe it's linked more heavily to social media and the media in general. Every individual in the country now has a platform, and that platform leads them to believe that they are more important than they are. I also think that we, as a society and culture, have allowed our kids to grow up in subsequent generations with an increasingly diminished sense of responsibility for their actions. Parents make more of an effort to shield their children from having to acknowledge that they have failed at something, be it sports or academics, and instead attack the schools/institutions for daring to suggest their snowflake could possibly have performed better at whatever task.

I think most humans in general have a decent sense for what actions are moral or immoral, and I don't think it has anything to do with religion. I grew up in as irreligious a home as you could possibly conceive, we never talked about any type of god or religious system and my exposure was basically limited to what little (basically nothing) was discussed at my public school. I didn't step foot in a church until I went to basic training when I was 20 and I found it all reaaaaaalllllllly weird. I still have that voice in my head that tells me when I'm thinking of doing something that is not right, and I still feel guilty when I gain something at someone else's expense. To suggest that religion is the only way people can behave decently towards one another is assinine. For me, it boils down to a sense of personal responsibility for one's actions.

 

[Ke0]

See, you specifically point out it's the liberal degeneracy that's caused it, and they immediately retreat to "B-B-B-B-BUT WE GAVE THE VOTE TO WOMEN! HOW CAN YOU HATE LIBERALS FOR THAT!"


Nobody said a goddamn word about anything but degeneracy.

What are you on about mate?

 

[Spheyr]

What are you on about mate?

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

 

[appaws]

What's causing school shootings now I can't really say because I don't live in the US. I wouldn't strictly look at it as "liberal/conservative ideology" itself as the reason bc that just lazy without looking into specific factors.



Sorry but blaming saying this is all because they don't teach about the Christian variation of god doesn't make any sense, and at best suggests that unlike other humans on Earth, Americans are more genetically predisposed to violence if they're not told not to be violent via the Bible In public spaces.

Sorry but religion has nothing to do with this, because if that were true then you would have had school shootings galore prior to the cold war.

I'm not sure what you mean by the last part at all? You think American society was less suffused with Christian virtue before the cold war?

I'm sure you're aware just how subjective the opinion you expressed is. Saying "He was 100% correct." is just....weird? Like, you literally can never prove that statement, ever. Personally, I believe it's linked more heavily to social media and the media in general. Every individual in the country now has a platform, and that platform leads them to believe that they are more important than they are. I also think that we, as a society and culture, have allowed our kids to grow up in subsequent generations with an increasingly diminished sense of responsibility for their actions. Parents make more of an effort to shield their children from having to acknowledge that they have failed at something, be it sports or academics, and instead attack the schools/institutions for daring to suggest their snowflake could possibly have performed better at whatever task.

I think most humans in general have a decent sense for what actions are moral or immoral, and I don't think it has anything to do with religion. I grew up in as irreligious a home as you could possibly conceive, we never talked about any type of god or religious system and my exposure was basically limited to what little (basically nothing) was discussed at my public school. I didn't step foot in a church until I went to basic training when I was 20 and I found it all reaaaaaalllllllly weird. I still have that voice in my head that tells me when I'm thinking of doing something that is not right, and I still feel guilty when I gain something at someone else's expense. To suggest that religion is the only way people can behave decently towards one another is assinine. For me, it boils down to a sense of personal responsibility for one's actions.

That morality you had in your irreligious home stemmed completely, assuming you grew up in the west, from a Christian moral construct....even if the Christian veneer was well stripped away. Because our entire culture was based on it, and the presuppositions of Christianity undergirded everything.

I agree very much with you on the diminished sense of responsibility thing. But I would still add the element of larger, existential responsibility. The belief that we ultimately face judgment for our sins. If you remove that, what are you left with that ultimately stops people from doing anything?

Also, where does the inherent value of human being's lives come from? In Christianity (and I think other Monotheistic faiths) it comes from the divine spark, the belief that we are created in the image of God. If there is just no God, and we are just animals, just a random coming together of molecules...then what is the source of any inherent value in human life? There cannot be any. And then we raise generations to be nihilist edgelords, believing that nothing has any transcendent reality or deeper meaning. And we are surprised when the most fucked up mentally ill of them murder...?

 

[TrainedRage]

Ban kids from schools. Wow problem solved. See how easy this is?

 

[NickFire]

Some conservatives seem to blame "liberals" for the decline of our society. I think the argument is that liberals have removed God and proper values from our education system, and the value of life was removed with it.

Not that I'm making that claim, but that's the argument. I'd like to hear your thoughts, though. Why do you feel school shootings are a thing now?

I already mentioned that in the last 36 years of school shootings, an average of 4.38 children have died in mass school shootings per year, but it's interesting to note that mass school shootings weren't really a thing that happened in the US until about 1966. People killed their bullies, students killed specific teachers, and principles killed specific teachers. There were shootings, but every shooting was intentional and the victims were generally limited to one or two. Some years saw one or two deaths, and some saw nobody killed.

But starting in 1966, mass shootings started to happen. And even after the 60s, they were exceptionally rare until becoming somewhat more common in the 90s until today. It wasn't until recently when there were people who decided to kill as many random students as possible. Look at the data yourself:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States#1980s

This is what people mean when they suggest that school shootings aren't a result of guns. We've had guns in this country since it's inception. We've had six-shooter revolvers since about 1836, and we didn't have anyone taking two of them to school and randomly killing 8 of their fellow classmates with 12 bullets. That didn't happen with school children, it didn't happen with people in college, it simply didn't happen.

So what changed? Why did this start happening? What do you think is the answer? Again, I'd like to hear your thoughts.

In the most general of terms, I do attribute the decline of moral values and the rise of me, me, me, to a big part of our problem. I do not feel this happened due to hatred towards the country or others however, and I do not believe there is anything to be gained by claiming this is a D or an R problem. Rather, I believe its time to focus on coming together, continuing to offer hands up as opposed to hands out, and bringing back tough love.

 

[Texas Pride]

Can you make a single post without throwing out unnecessary insults/accusations?

People like him acting unhinged are difficult to take seriously on this issue. Nothing anyone says will move him off his position so debating him is a waste of time when he believes he's got it all figured out.

 

[Ke0]

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

Feel free to explain it to me, but given your avatar I'm not really having any hopes for it to be anything of logic.

 

[bigedole]

That morality you had in your irreligious home stemmed completely, assuming you grew up in the west, from a Christian moral construct....even if the Christian veneer was well stripped away. Because our entire culture was based on it, and the presuppositions of Christianity undergirded everything.

I agree very much with you on the diminished sense of responsibility thing. But I would still add the element of larger, existential responsibility. The belief that we ultimately face judgment for our sins. If you remove that, what are you left with that ultimately stops people from doing anything?

Also, where does the inherent value of human being's lives come from? In Christianity (and I think other Monotheistic faiths) it comes from the divine spark, the belief that we are created in the image of God. If there is just no God, and we are just animals, just a random coming together of molecules...then what is the source of any inherent value in human life? There cannot be any. And then we raise generations to be nihilist edgelords, believing that nothing has any transcendent reality or deeper meaning. And we are surprised when the most fucked up mentally ill of them murder...?

I don't agree that a belief in a higher power is necessary for one to find any inherent value in humanity and living. I would argue that there is no god and that we are just animals, but we are not random coming together of molecules. We are the byproduct of many many generations of refinement and evolutionary physiology and pyschology. Morality is an evolutionarily necessary concept for the reasons you stated, just not from the source you believe in. Society thrives when a baseline of principles that I can only best describe as 'human decency' are subscribed to, and those who are incapable of at least faking it are removed from that society.

 

[Cleared_Hot]

How so? They are properly trained and you support America. You can deal with crisis situations better for self defense because just buying one doesn't make you John Wick.

It's basically the conservatives dream.

First off, I am in the military (almost seven years now) and I have done more weapons training than the average servicemember.

That being said, the Constitution is what I serve to defend, and it clearly states that bearing arms is a right. To suggest forcing people to serve in the military in order to be allowed to own a firearm is outrageous. After that you start saying some mildly offense and ignorant bantor that I won't even get into.

 

[StrikeNinja24]

First off, I am in the military (almost seven years now) and I have done more weapons training than the average servicemember.

That being said, the Constitution is what I serve to defend, and it clearly states that bearing arms is a right. To suggest forcing people to serve in the military in order to be allowed to own a firearm is outrageous. After that you start saying some mildly offense and ignorant bantor that I won't even get into.

It's a "right" that is getting the people you fought to protect killed for no good reason.

A right to live superceeds a right to have a weapon without a specific reason to owning one. Such laws are implimented in places of high gun ownership that people like to bring up. You shoot someone even while they invade your home in most states, unless you're in direct danger of harm, you're going to jail. It's just how it's going to go down in a majority of the nation. At the very least, I believe that the military will train an individual to respect the weapon in their hands and what they can do, rather than having some granduer dream of being some hero that can solve any dispute or worse because they are armed. Because I really doubt most gun ownership take proper care and regular training volutarily. Many do it as some kind of macho dream, which ironically is what causes a lot of these mass shootings. It's not because they were "bullied". The fame is only an aftermath of the issue. In the actual event of a mass shooting, the motives are most likely a show of dominance, one of power and control that they didn't have before. Because before their actions had consequences, now they have rewards.

Now, what has anyone else actually propose to solve this issue? This culture of mass murders is only gaining popularity. http://abcnews.go.com/US/200-love-letters-fan-mail-florida-shooting-suspect/story?id=54102468

Let's be honest, this string of mass shootings isn't over by a long shot, and not a single one of you has even put forth a way to stop it. The government isn't going to fund shit, and the current laws with without a doubt stall. Complaining about blaming while blaming others is really all I've been hearing.

 

[way more]

Those things are not what people are talking about. Specifically, what I always cite is the driving of Christianity out of the public sphere and replacing it with ???? People seem to think you can replace it with pure secularism....but I note that at some level we have replaced Christian virtue with worship of self. Whatever I want is more important than anything else. Human beings cannot live without God....so when God the Father is removed, we replace him by elevating ourselves to the spot.

John Adams said that we could not maintain this republic if the people were not Christian. He was 100% correct.

This is the biggest reason why a country that has had armed civilians since day one suddenly sees an uptake in senseless killings.

John Adams became a Unitarian. The reason he liked church was that going to church weekly was good for bonding and I love that idea. It sounds great.. He wasn't big on Jesus and like every founding father he would literally cross out lines in his bible he felt were wrong.

Appaws, nobody wants pure secularism. Only freaks want to make religion illegal. Or middle east countries that are incredibly authoritarian. Christian values are great, unless they say gays can't get married or trans have to wear badges.

 

[manfestival]

Can I get a summary as to this whole conversation? Too much bickering in between the real stuff

 

[Rubbernecking]

Feel free to explain it to me, but given your avatar I'm not really having any hopes for it to be anything of logic.

I wouldn't even acknowledge the posts of someone who thinks James Alex Fields was an innocent victim (although I guess that's what I'm doing).

 

[Cleared_Hot]

It's a "right" that is getting the people you fought to protect killed for no good reason.

A right to live superceeds a right to have a weapon without a specific reason to owning one. Such laws are implimented in places of high gun ownership that people like to bring up. You shoot someone even while they invade your home in most states, unless you're in direct danger of harm, you're going to jail. It's just how it's going to go down in a majority of the nation. At the very least, I believe that the military will train an individual to respect the weapon in their hands and what they can do, rather than having some granduer dream of being some hero that can solve any dispute or worse because they are armed. Because I really doubt most gun ownership take proper care and regular training volutarily. Many do it as some kind of macho dream, which ironically is what causes a lot of these mass shootings. It's not because they were "bullied". The fame is only an aftermath of the issue. In the actual event of a mass shooting, the motives are most likely a show of dominance, one of power and control that they didn't have before. Because before their actions had consequences, now they have rewards.

Now, what has anyone else actually propose to solve this issue? This culture of mass murders is only gaining popularity. http://abcnews.go.com/US/200-love-letters-fan-mail-florida-shooting-suspect/story?id=54102468

Let's be honest, this string of mass shootings isn't over by a long shot, and not a single one of you has even put forth a way to stop it. The government isn't going to fund shit, and the current laws with without a doubt stall. Complaining about blaming while blaming others is really all I've been hearing.

With your logic only those with a degree in journalism can enjoy their right to free speech and publish news articles.

 

[Hotel Security]

With your logic only those with a degree in journalism can enjoy their right to free speech and publish news articles.

Oh, to dream...