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Akai Katana |OT| Experience the Other Kind of Hell on May 15th

SOME-MIST

Member
Arcade/Origin is the only 4:3 mode, and the only mode that allows a second player.
I thought I read that the US localization would have 4:3 support in all modes :/

regardless, I guess it was still worth snagging for the US leaderboards alone, but I probably wouldn't have been so antsy and would have stuck with my JP version.
 

Zeth

Member
I love these games, but I'm not too surprised at the commentary by the mainstream gaming media outlets. Of course I'd love to see a more positive overall perception, but I think hardcore shmups like AK will remain niche.
 
Think about it this way: You don't "beat" it until you clear it without continuing, and that will take you a lot longer than 30 minutes! This game is fantastic and well worth $40.
Exactly. And after 1CCing it, you try to get the best possible score. Then there are different modes and characters and in the end you spend dozens or even hundreds of hours with it. That's what makes these kind of games so great.
 
I thought I read that the US localization would have 4:3 support in all modes :/

regardless, I guess it was still worth snagging for the US leaderboards alone, but I probably wouldn't have been so antsy and would have stuck with my JP version.

I don't know how you expected that to be implemented; Shin/Slash and Zetsu/Climax are balanced for 16:9 and wouldn't work in any other ratio.
 

Shady859

Member
LOVE LOVE LOVING this game, wish more people in the US would get behind this genre so we'd get more releases. I feel compelled to buy every release and all the DLC for US shmups. I've shoved this game down everyones throats in my real life gaming friends and noone cares, lol same with online friends. I did convince one to at least try some of the XBLA trials, he liked but hasn't bought any..

Apples versus oranges but my Gamestop had over 2200 Modern Warfare 3 pre-orders and only me for this release. I'm curious as to the week 1 sales numbers but this doesn't scream more to publishers like Rising Star Games hopefully they are into the big picture of growing a mostly unexposed genre here. :(
 
Niche genres never gonna stop being niche genres. What publishers need to figure out is how to release and market these games in a sustainable fashion.
 

Ledsen

Member
Exactly. People will never come flooding to bullet hells, because most people don't give a shit and to them the games look boring as shit. It doesn't matter if they try to market them to new audiences when those people won't ever try the games anyway. It's all about trying to get the audiences that knows about these types of games to start buying them, or keep doing so if they have before. People that played them in arcades or hardcore gamers that are open-minded enough to give the genre a chance. It's more about maintaining than growing, honestly.
 

Danny Dudekisser

I paid good money for this Dynex!
I dunno why anyone would expect shmups to have a sudden burst of popularity at this point. It's a dying genre, and honestly, I'm kinda alright with that. We've gotten enough good shit to last a lifetime, and I'd rather see it die out now than turn into... well, Sine Mora and Pixeljunk.

No matter what happens, the mainstream isn't going to see the difference between Akai Katana and Aegis Wing outside of price, much like nobody seems to care that Castle Crashers is a piece of shit rip-off of Guardian Heroes, even though both games are available on XBLA now.

The point: Most people are dumb, but that doesn't mean you have to be saddled by their bullshit.

Edit: Oh, and Jamestown is totally part of the problem. That game serves no purpose but to damage people's perception of the genre. And it just fucking sucks.
 
How much are there? I stopped scrolling down at something over 100. Also: You didn't upload a replay, shame on you! ;)

~180 scores on Climax mode, and I'll upload a replay next time I top it. Having trouble breaking 100m now, and I still can't beat the Stage 4 boss :\
 

Ledsen

Member
I dunno why anyone would expect shmups to have a sudden burst of popularity at this point. It's a dying genre, and honestly, I'm kinda alright with that. We've gotten enough good shit to last a lifetime, and I'd rather see it die out now than turn into... well, Sine Mora and Pixeljunk.

No matter what happens, the mainstream isn't going to see the difference between Akai Katana and Aegis Wing outside of price, much like nobody seems to care that Castle Crashers is a piece of shit rip-off of Guardian Heroes, even though both games are available on XBLA now.

The point: Most people are dumb, but that doesn't mean you have to be saddled by their bullshit.

Edit: Oh, and Jamestown is totally part of the problem. That game serves no purpose but to damage people's perception of the genre. And it just fucking sucks.

Most PC gamers seem to love it, but I'm going to guess most of them haven't played an STG since Gradius. Cave games on Steam would BLOW THEIR MINDS. Get on it, Cave...
 
Oh man don't even mention Pixeljunk.

I bought Sidescroller and...it's totally bunk. I'm sorry but if you can't even get the most basic stuff down like the movement of the player's ship you have no business putting out a game.

It feels like no matter what I do I overshoot everything and the weapon system is awful.
 

vulva

Member
so not much to say about the game? =( just complaining about people having misconceptions about the genre?


Shame, I was really interested in getting Akai Katana...
 

JEKKI

Member
whoo~!!! finally got this game and it's pretty coo learning how to play it!!

but what mode is most ppl playing here in terms of score attack??
 

Danny Dudekisser

I paid good money for this Dynex!
so not much to say about the game? =( just complaining about people having misconceptions about the genre?


Shame, I was really interested in getting Akai Katana...

Don't pretend that this discussion had any bearing on your purchase decision.



whoo~!!! finally got this game and it's pretty coo learning how to play it!!

but what mode is most ppl playing here in terms of score attack??

I'm playing Origin, because it's the arcade game. I don't like messing with the extraneous modes before taking on the real deal.
 

danmaku

Member
whoo~!!! finally got this game and it's pretty coo learning how to play it!!

but what mode is most ppl playing here in terms of score attack??

You can play any mode in score attack, depends on your taste. Arcade is the vanilla AK, Zetsu is arcade mode on crack and Shin has a totally different scoring system. My favourite is Zetsu, it's basically what Arcade should've been without time/hardware constraints.

edit: sorry, I don't know the name of the modes in the western version, I guess Origin is the Arcade version...
 
Edit: Oh, and Jamestown is totally part of the problem. That game serves no purpose but to damage people's perception of the genre. And it just fucking sucks.
Serious question: why is Jamestown so vilified by hardcore shmup fans? Is this like how they treat euroshmups?
 

Ledsen

Member
Serious question: why is Jamestown so vilified by hardcore shmup fans? Is this like how they treat euroshmups?

Personally, I'd say it's simply not very well designed compared to great games in the genre. Neither bullet patterns nor enemies nor stages. I can't comment on scoring since I don't care particularly about that. It's just a very mediocre game that got so much attention it didn't really deserve because of the lack of similar games on PC. It's very pretty though, I'll give it that! Of course you could say Cave etc only have themselves to blame. So to answer your question: bitterness?
 

Himself

Member
For some reason it seems like the attacks in AK feel more powerful than anything from the other Cave games I've played. Unleashing a full charge of steel orbs (or shields, whatever the f they are) followed by a full clip of katanas is insane.

I'm loving the game, the aesthetic is great, but I'm finding the music to be a bit subpar when compared to Deathsmiles, ESPgaluda 2, and DDPR. It just doesn't have a standout track for me.

What kind of scores are you guys pulling off? I suck at these games so mine is just under 60 mil at the moment. Like just over 100th place on the lederboards.

Which ship are you using? I seem to be doing the best with type B. Type A is too sluggish and Type C is too weak.

Hope y'all are enjoying this as much as me.
 

Jucksalbe

Banned
What kind of scores are you guys pulling off? I suck at these games so mine is just under 60 mil at the moment. Like just over 100th place on the lederboards.

My current high scores:

Slash: 44,306,948 (Rank 160, Type 3)
Origin: 9,945,135 (Rank 67, Type 2)
Climax: 41,966,250 (Rank 47, Type 1)

Which ship are you using? I seem to be doing the best with type B. Type A is too sluggish and Type C is too weak.

I haven't found my perfect ship yet. As you can see by my high scores, I can't really decide.

Hope y'all are enjoying this as much as me.

Oh yes. My biggest problem is that I can't decide which mode to play. Now that I've tried them all in Score Attack, I like them all.
 

Ledsen

Member
You're right. I'll still buy it but its hard to feel excited when everyone is opting to whine about review scores or other games than to discuss this one.

So some off-topic discussion in an OT lessens your excitement over the game? That's strange.
 

vulva

Member
So some off-topic discussion in an OT lessens your excitement over the game? That's strange.
Maybe it's strange but when this I'd the only place I go for gaming discussions and genre enthusiasts have less to say about the game than they do about hating other games, it can be a bit deflating.

Any really cool levels in particular in this game?
 

Semblance

shhh Graham I'm still compiling this Radiant map
I'm loving the game, the aesthetic is great, but I'm finding the music to be a bit subpar when compared to Deathsmiles, ESPgaluda 2, and DDPR. It just doesn't have a standout track for me.

This is somewhat bumming me out as well, I must say. It's ... passable, just entirely forgettable. I think a Guwange-ish soundtrack would've fit perfectly.

Maybe it's strange but when this I'd the only place I go for gaming discussions and genre enthusiasts have less to say about the game than they do about hating other games, it can be a bit deflating.

Any really cool levels in particular in this game?

We've been talking about the game plenty, let's be fair. A few off-topic posts aren't the end of the thread.

To answer your question, they're all pretty cool, really. Beautiful art with lots of detail everywhere. I think the fourth stage, which starts out underwater and ends above the clouds, might my favorite. They're all quality though.
 

Tain

Member
Also remember that this game was released in 2010 and ported home in mid 2011. It's already seen a good bit of discussion in the Cave thread.
 

Danny Dudekisser

I paid good money for this Dynex!
Serious question: why is Jamestown so vilified by hardcore shmup fans? Is this like how they treat euroshmups?

Well, as a general thing, I dislike Euroshmups because they're poorly designed and have ghastly aesthetics... which, incidentally, is exactly the problem with Jamestown. The levels seem to just throw bullets at you completely at random, without regard to how dodgeable the patterns actually are. On higher difficulty levels, it's just frustrating -- even rote memorization doesn't get you all that far. The problem this all leads to is that when you do survive a nasty stretch of a level, it feels more like luck than the result of skillful play.

And aesthetically, the thing is just a disaster. The visuals are pretty garish, looking like the unwanted offspring of Tyrian and Dodonpachi... but much uglier than both. It reminds me a lot of those games that you could play on Cartoon Network's website -- you'd see the commercials and think to yourself, "this would probably be great if I had no money and was a stupid child." I can't comment on the music because I don't remember any of it, but it probably sucked, too. And the whole progression of the game was stupid. The shop system was a good idea, but including a terrible story that you can't skip through fast enough and locking later levels until you play through on a higher difficulty were bad design choices.

And the whole "we're colonizing Mars and it's kind of like the 1800s" theme is just unpleasant. Frankly, the 1800s just aren't a good setting for a game... hell, it's not even an interesting time period to think about. The only good use of this time period would be a Guwange clone where you play as a runaway slave and try to make it to the North. Stage 3 is the underground railroad, which is a lot like the train level from Ibara. Your summon is Jesse Jackson, who threatens the racist Southerners with discrimination suits and whose bomb attack is called "The Rainbow Push." There: I've just improved on Jamestown's concept in every way.

But yeah, the biggest problem I have with the game is probably that it's tricked people into thinking that that's what the genre is. It's a disposable game capable of providing about 30 minutes of fun at best, and that doesn't provide any incentive to get good at the game... which is kind of missing the point of a shmup.

Any really cool levels in particular in this game?

Stage 4's pretty awesome, just because of how it starts out underwater with you taking out torpedoes and such, and then you eventually surface. Music's really fitting for that stage, too.
 

Brobzoid

how do I slip unnoticed out of a gloryhole booth?
Personally, I'd say it's simply not very well designed compared to great games in the genre. Neither bullet patterns nor enemies nor stages. I can't comment on scoring since I don't care particularly about that. It's just a very mediocre game that got so much attention it didn't really deserve because of the lack of similar games on PC. It's very pretty though, I'll give it that! Of course you could say Cave etc only have themselves to blame. So to answer your question: bitterness?

Jamestown is good for what it is, which is a casual shmup. It has a great presentation and it was released at a good price-point for people who don't think a "30 minute long game" is worth $60. They also did a great job artificially extending the perceived length of the game, and introducing/forcing a steady increase in the challenge, by having you re-do the levels at higher difficulties.
 

galvatron

Member
Personally, I'd say it's simply not very well designed compared to great games in the genre. Neither bullet patterns nor enemies nor stages. I can't comment on scoring since I don't care particularly about that. It's just a very mediocre game that got so much attention it didn't really deserve because of the lack of similar games on PC. It's very pretty though, I'll give it that! Of course you could say Cave etc only have themselves to blame. So to answer your question: bitterness?

Agreed, aside from the game actually being a big flop until the humble bundle picked them up.

All of the "traditional" shooters just throw you into the deep end, while Jamestown gradually ramps up the challenge and lets a beginner feel like they're making progress. THAT was their key innovation...they made a game-like structure around gradually mastering the game proper. This could have served to make new shooter players feel like they were getting an introduction to a "new" genre instead of jumping into the deep end a couple of decades late.

Honestly, I wish Cave would put out more of an olive branch to people not already enamored with the genre...my sister is a pretty avid gamer, but the difficulty of most vert shooters is an instant turn off. Getting killed on "baby" difficulty (which should really have been named differently) in Gunbird 2 doesn't make people feel good...
 
Huh? Gun Frontier was basically Futuristic 1800s and it was pretty baller.

Honestly, I wish Cave would put out more of an olive branch to people not already enamored with the genre...my sister is a pretty avid gamer, but the difficulty of most vert shooters is an instant turn off. Getting killed on "baby" difficulty (which should really have been named differently) in Gunbird 2 doesn't make people feel good...

Deathsmiles 1 and 2 (not verts but still Cave) are really good about this. Also a number of their recent ports include Novice modes. The Arranged modes also tend to be easier than the arcade versions and IMO can be just as much fun.

Psikyo games are not recommended for anyone trying to get into the genre. There is way too much of a focus on "blink and you'll die" bullet-spreads and the difficulty settings basically treat you like a newborn baby monkey. It's extremely off-putting.
 

Danny Dudekisser

I paid good money for this Dynex!
Huh? Gun Frontier was basically Futuristic 1800s and it was pretty baller.

Gun Frontier pretends to be futuristic 1800s, but it's just futuristic. Plus, the game is sweet. Unlike Jamestown, it doesn't revel is what is objectively the lamest time in history. Like seriously, that stretch of American history is as crap as it gets. I honestly believe it's responsible for both George Bush and the genocide in Rwanda.
 

danmaku

Member
Deathsmiles 1 and 2 (not verts but still Cave) are really good about this. Also a number of their recent ports include Novice modes. The Arranged modes also tend to be easier than the arcade versions and IMO can be just as much fun.

Psikyo games are not recommended for anyone trying to get into the genre. There is way too much of a focus on "blink and you'll die" bullet-spreads and the difficulty settings basically treat you like a newborn baby monkey. It's extremely off-putting.

Novice modes are worthless, imho. The good idea of Jamestown is making casual players "earn" something by practicing the same levels. Same with Ikaruga and its limited continues system. If you force the player to play the game "correctly", eventually they'll start to like it. They'll find out how good it feels to pass a once difficult section like it's nothing. If you give them everything from the start, they'll just credit feed and leave. Gamers are lazy, you can't count on them to enforce an extra "no continues, score does matter" rule.
 

Wonko_C

Member
Novice modes are worthless, imho. The good idea of Jamestown is making casual players "earn" something by practicing the same levels. Same with Ikaruga and its limited continues system. If you force the player to play the game "correctly", eventually they'll start to like it. They'll find out how good it feels to pass a once difficult section like it's nothing. If you give them everything from the start, they'll just credit feed and leave. Gamers are lazy, you can't count on them to enforce an extra "no continues, score does matter" rule.

More likely the opposite would be true.
 
Copy arrived.
On my second attempt I reached the boss of stage 5 and hit about 143 million.

Not too bad I suppose. I bet if I actually remembered to use bombs I'd probably have landed a 1CC....
Shame my work schedule sucks or else I'd play more.
 

jooey

The Motorcycle That Wouldn't Slow Down
Novice modes are worthless, imho. The good idea of Jamestown is making casual players "earn" something by practicing the same levels. Same with Ikaruga and its limited continues system. If you force the player to play the game "correctly", eventually they'll start to like it. They'll find out how good it feels to pass a once difficult section like it's nothing. If you give them everything from the start, they'll just credit feed and leave. Gamers are lazy, you can't count on them to enforce an extra "no continues, score does matter" rule.

And shooter nerds wonder why they're called elitist.
 
I'll be totally straight-up here. I left the 360 on overnight when I played Radiant Silvergun XBLA so the continues/extra lives rolled in. I looked at it this way: If I'm able to get through the game with less lives/continues than I did the time before I'm making progress.

Forcing a limited continue system on someone isn't the answer.
 
I'll be totally straight-up here. I left the 360 on overnight when I played Radiant Silvergun XBLA so the continues/extra lives rolled in. I looked at it this way: If I'm able to get through the game with less lives/continues than I did the time before I'm making progress.

Forcing a limited continue system on someone isn't the answer.

I think the way Cave has been doing it in their recent iOS ports is pretty good - every two or three credits spent unlocks a new credit, and reaching unlimited credits happens pretty quickly (certainly not requiring leaving the game running overnight). Not enough to feel restrictive, but enough to drive home the point that you're not supposed to just credit feed through the game.
 

Brobzoid

how do I slip unnoticed out of a gloryhole booth?
I always thought auto-bombing was a great way to make the game easier for new players. DDPR does this nicely for instance by making auto-bombs less ideal than the regular kind, but not hella shitty.

But DDPR is still marred by not explaining shit, so I don't think it really make a difference.
 

Tain

Member
I did the whole "replay it with less continues" thing in the past and it was both more boring and less helpful.

If I were porting a modern arcade shooter these days, I would have the game default to no continues with infinite continues being an option, but very clearly a discouraged one. Maybe no achievements whatsoever and a big 'ol message box discouraging them from turning them on and letting them know that using them is basically cheating. I'd probably take measures like that.

If I were making one from the ground up? lol, fuck continues entirely.
 
And shooter nerds wonder why they're called elitist.

Hey now, I'm a totally casual shooter fan myself and far from an elitist (and I rather enjoy Jamestown) but there is some truth to the post you quoted. I'd take Dark Souls as the example, if you put in a system that allows for unlimited number of quick saves and quick loads then I really don't think that it's the same game. Instead of becoming a hardcore game of choice it would just be another action game where you slapped the quick save button before you walked into any room. And quite frankly I don't think that it would have reviewed or sold as well if it had. Sometimes a game that is really trying to make a point needs to really force you a bit to play it their way.

Now I don't really think that limited / no continues is really the way to do that for shooters. But the basic point does kinda stand.
 

Tain

Member
And shooter nerds wonder why they're called elitist.

I am for sure elitist, but like with games that have cheats and easy difficulty settings, anybody can play them in any way they want.

This doesn't change the fact that, due to these games not being made for the home console environment, a lot of people completely and totally throw the carefully designed challenges of them out the window without even realizing it.

Arcade games have this issue when it comes to Western perception of their home ports. I can't think of any other kind of game that suffers from this to the same degree. It would be like most forum-goers somehow not realizing that fighting games were made for head-to-head play. Ultimately, though, the shooter nerds know the environment that these games were made for and understand the way they're intended to be played, so discouraging, limiting, or preventing continues in home ports isn't vital when it comes to the quality of the port itself. It only helps to avoid messy reactions from those unfamiliar with the concept of clearing an arcade game.
 

Brobzoid

how do I slip unnoticed out of a gloryhole booth?
True, though better tutorials/surfacing of information would be better still.
 

discoalucard

i am a butthurt babby that can only drool in wonder at shiney objects
This doesn't change the fact that, due to these games not being made for the home console environment, a lot of people completely and totally throw the carefully designed challenges of them out the window without even realizing it.

That's because they do an awful job of telegraphing what those challenges actually are, beyond "don't get hit", "shoot things" and "make score go up".

I agree with Danmaku that there needs to be some kind of proper way to train gamers into playing them they way they're supposed to be played. I'm not sure limiting continues is really the best way, but something Contra 4 and its challenge missions wouldn't be a bad idea.

I don't agree that gamers are lazy though. If anything, the onus is on Cave (or whoever the publisher is in other cases) to present themselves properly, which they do a consistently awful job of. You really do need to be trained, at a certain level, to enjoy these types of games, but most people don't know that they need to put the effort into trawling enthusiast forums for scoring mechanics or studying replay videos. Once you get over that hump it's very gratifying, but a regular person shouldn't be expected to know the ins and outs of Akihabara arcade culture.
 
The coded aim of most shoot em ups is to get a score which accurately measures their skill(s). Continuing resets your score to 0. Thus players who credit feed will be recognized as poorly skilled whether they like it or not.

I don't think it's necessary to impose credit limits. Instead go with expanded tutorials and focus on getting the player to improve their score. Positive reinforcement works better than negative (dying, game overs, etc.), and if the game rules still accurately measure player skill, nothing is technically lost in the process.
 

eternalb

Member
Man this game is consuming my time... really digging in to the different systems at work here. Long way from a 1cc though.
 
In Origin?

On your second credit? That's pretty damn good man! lol

Yep...oh wait..NOPE!

I just topped it a little while ago.
Stage 6 with 214 million now.

Totally wrong about my 1CC chances though. The last couple bosses are real assholes.

Oh what the fuck. I've been playing Slash this entire time!? Disregard everything!
 
Yikes.

Origins/Climax is crazy unfun.

I feel like I have to start over from the very beginning and play extremely safe just to get anywhere.
 

Semblance

shhh Graham I'm still compiling this Radiant map
How far is everyone else getting on one credit? I must be complete garbage, because I'm having trouble consistently just getting past the second boss without getting hit. Origin mode, by the way.

Oh what the fuck. I've been playing Slash this entire time!? Disregard everything!

Heh, I did the same thing when I initially got it. Even worse, I watched the little tutorial clip for Origin / Climax, then I guess accidentally switched over to Slash and started. Thought it seemed strange that the mechanics were different from what had just been described.
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