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[eso76]

Something no one ever take into consideration is: if movies (24fps with motion blur) and Tv appear smooth enough, that's also because from frame 1 to 2, there's frame 1.5 motionblurred into frame 2. The missing frame is still present in motion blur form.
This won't happen in videogames; for this to happen, the console should actually have the time to render frame 1.5 and then overlay it onto frame 2, thus, the game should still render internally at 60fps.
Instead you'll have frame 1 blurred onto frame 2, which is not the same.

 

[TigerKnee]

Fuck that...

Next gen my ass. These systems should be powerful enough to do 60FPS without breaking a sweat.

Unless the X360 isn't as powerful.

PS3 is looking more and more attractive everyday

 

[gollumsluvslave]

Something no one ever take into consideration is: if movies (24fps with motion blur) and Tv appear smooth enough, that's also because from frame 1 to 2, there's frame 1.5 motionblurred into frame 2. The missing frame is still present in motion blur form.

Exactly. People forget that cameras used for filming are mostly analogue in nature (obvious exceptions being the Star Wars prequels that were shot digitally); aperture, shutter speeds etc... there is a time lapse where cameras pick up a natural motion blur that games cannot hope to replicate.

As an aside, the Star Wars prequels were shot on 24 fps high-definition progressive scan cameras...

 

[PanopticBlue]

Shit..can't believe Bizarre is takin' the PGR2 train AGAIN. Welp, no buy fuckers.

Fucking inexcusable when a game that looks as good as Burnout Revenge runs at an unflinching 60fps this gen. And Bizarre can't get 60 frames from 3 cores at 3.2ghz?

C'mon, the game looks good, but NOT 30FPS GOOD. Hope you enjoy those beautiful graphics when they stutter by at 30 frames. I can't believe they aren't listening to the fans.

LESS DETAIL, MORE FRAMERATE.

And to all you people claiming films @ 24fps are smooth-ARE YOU WATCHING THE SAME MOVIES AS ME?? THEY ARE NOT SMOOTH. 24FPS IS NOT SMOOTH. Motion blur or not--pay close attention to the next movie you watch, when the camera pans, watch THE STUTTERY MESS ON YOUR SCREEN. Not smooth.

 

[newsguy]

Shit..can't believe Bizarre is takin' the PGR2 train AGAIN. Welp, no buy fuckers.

Fucking inexcusable when a game that looks as good as Burnout Revenge runs at an unflinching 60fps this gen. And Bizarre can't get 60 frames from 3 cores at 3.2ghz?

C'mon, the game looks good, but NOT 30FPS GOOD. Hope you enjoy those beautiful graphics when they stutter by at 30 frames. I can't believe they aren't listening to the fans.

LESS DETAIL, MORE FRAMERATE.

Well, the point is that Bizzare is ALWAYS DEVELOPING FOR LAUNCHES. I say they release it in Feb. and make it 60 fps if it's that big a deal. I know MS is counting on them, but if so many people are bitching about this then delay it to 2006.

 

[Jonnyboy117]

60 fps for $60, got that?

 

[Zaphod]

I'm in the framerate crowd, and I always have been. On PC's I always aim for 60fps with less details. Some may not be able to tell the difference but obviously quite a few can, even my casual gaming friend always comments on how Forza looks a little off to him. I'm sure PGR3 will look nice, and be fun to play, but for me, paying $450 to play a 30fps racer is not going to happen.

 

[Baron Aloha]

F***!!! Before this announcement PGR3 was the only X360 game that I was 100% certain of buying.

After this announcement I don't know. PGR3 is definitely the only 1st party game releasing in the next 6 months that I was ever interested in and I was planning on holding off on RR6, Oblivion, DOA4, and FCK to see if any PS3 versions get announced.

I'm getting a 360 pre-launch and there isn't a single game that I am dead set on getting now (which is probably for the best b/c of all the PS2 games coming out).

They need to delay it and release it a 60FPS. 60FPS is crucial IMO.

 

[GhaleonEB]

F***!!! Before this announcement PGR3 was the only X360 game that I was 100% certain of buying.

After this announcement I don't know. PGR3 is definitely the only 1st party game releasing in the next 6 months that I was ever interested in and I was planning on holding off on RR6, Oblivion, DOA4, and FCK to see if any PS3 versions get announced.

I'm getting a 360 pre-launch and there isn't a single game that I am dead set on getting now (which is probably for the best b/c of all the PS2 games coming out).

They need to delay it and release it a 60FPS. 60FPS is crucial IMO.

What announcement?

 

[Xellotah]

The point that people seem to miss about framerate is that 60 fps *feels* smoother; it's not just that it looks smoother, it's the whole package - looks, feel, control

There is no excuse for a non-60fps racer with the specs that X360 and PS3 has.

None.

QFT..

I'm sure PGR3 will be a good racing game, but I agree with the sentiment that 60fps > 30fps because it *feels* smoother.

 

[OptimusPrime]

BTW they never said it was 60 fps

The INTERNET mass is at it again ehehehehhehe

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

Next gen and we still have 30 fps racers. Geez, devs got to better prioritize themselves. Racers can look good and be 60 fps you know.

 

[Baron Aloha]

What announcement?

Poor choice of words. You know what I mean.

It just better be 60FPS.

 

[Gek54]

This game was going to be my system seller for me, im done with 30fps racers. Anyword on Test Drive?

 

[FiRez]

Maybe some of you should play PGR2, one of the best xbox games and it was 30 fps.
but I still understand that with new HW a lot of gamers expect more so I hope Bizarre can achieve 60fps.

 

[dskillzhtown]

I am not even trying to start shit, but shouldn't next-gen consoles be powerful enough to do 60fps+effects with no problems? Granted I am not as technically wise as many of you, but why am I expected to pay $400 for something that isn't even THAT much of an upgrade over current gen systems?

Or is this just a programming issue?

 

[123rl]

Higher framerate = more accurate and more responsive handling. Fact.

Pointless details and screwed up priorities. 40k polygon dashboards? Audiences? Whoop-de-fucking-do...that adds precisely ZERO to the gameplay of the game.

I'll probably still buy it on PGR3's release day (whenever that is) but there is no doubt in my mind that 30fps IS going to have an adverse effect on the game's handling.

 

[mrklaw]

um, look at a long pan in a movie shot on film. it's visibly choppy, motion blur or no. movies would look much better at 60fps too.

if you're watching that on an NTSC TV, the choppiness is because of the 3:2 pulldown not matching the framerates properly.


As for 30fps, I'll take it - with some conditions

I want controller input and physics calculated at at least 60fps. I don't mind stuff being rendered at 30 so much.

 

[anotherworld]

What a line of crap. 60fps is a must for racing games, yet MS games continue to favour excessive detail over framerate. And yes, you can see the difference. What was the excuse for Forza running at 30fps? Something about the anti-aliasing making up for it? Their priorities are seriously screwed up.

absolutely true...60 frame is very important.....RRacer better be 60

 

[human5892]

I am not even trying to start shit, but shouldn't next-gen consoles be powerful enough to do 60fps+effects with no problems? Granted I am not as technically wise as many of you, but why am I expected to pay $400 for something that isn't even THAT much of an upgrade over current gen systems?

It's not as simple as that. Even P38 and Xbox what-the-hell-ever could have framerate difficulties if a game threw enough polygons and effects on the screen. There will always be a compromise between detail and FPS, but I think what most of us feel is that in racing games, the compromise should fall on the side of 60 FPS.

Or how about letting the user pick what experience he or she prefers?

 

[Kintaro]

How many racers this gen have been 60fps? I don't keep up with racers much, so I'm curious. Will this new gen with all it's added bells, whistles, increased resolution, and blah blah blah that people now *expect* hinder framerates?

 

[Mrbob]

I really don't know why anyone is accepting 30FPS in this situation. I'm not even a big racing fan, but look at what the Bizarre guy states.

If they have a little more time they can get the game to 60FPS. Why would you want a crippled game early than a better game a couple months later. He is saying they only need a few more months to get this done.

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

Higher framerate = more accurate and more responsive handling. Fact.

Pointless details and screwed up priorities. 40k polygon dashboards? Audiences? Whoop-de-fucking-do...that adds precisely ZERO to the gameplay of the game.

I'll probably still buy it on PGR3's release day (whenever that is) but there is no doubt in my mind that 30fps IS going to have an adverse effect on the game's handling.

It's all about balance and I would have thought with a clean slate to work with they would take the proper things in consideration, like having all those 3D buildings and super detailed interiors worth the cost of a smoother game? You could probably cut and few here and there and it would still be phenomenal. It sounds like they need around 4 months for it to reach 60 fps, so would that mean PGR4 be 60 fps?

 

[ypo]

:lol 4 more months? I doubt they can hit 60 fps if they had 4 more years. Lame ass excuses left and right.

 

[Guy LeDouche]

too much time rendering 35,000 spectators or whatever

 

[Beer Monkey]

I wish I didn't still want the new Geometry Wars.

 

[trmas]

:lol So much for the 60 fps promises. Seeing Bizarre's history can't say I'm in the least surprised.

 

[Gek54]

If they had a 60fps mode where it woudl remove interior, darken tint on windows, remove cockipit view, I would be more than happy.

 

[eso76]

Maybe some of you should play PGR2, one of the best xbox games and it was 30 fps.
but I still understand that with new HW a lot of gamers expect more so I hope Bizarre can achieve 60fps.

That's not the point, for me at least: it hurts (!) knowing that PGR3 is so close to being 60fps but it will settle for 30 just because they won't spend a few more months on optimization.
If BC is to be believed and pgr3 is 4 months away from being 60fps, this means it's already very close and was always meant to be 60fps; IE, it doesn't have the level of detail you'd expect from a genuinely 30fps title, and it doesn't have the frame rate you'd expect from that level of detail they could achieve with that level of detail.

 

[Beer Monkey]

I have PGR2. It's a good game but I can really 'feel' the 30fps limitation. I do a much better job with high-speed cornering in games that are 60fps.

 

[antipode]

The latest screenshots of this game kind of bother me. When Bizarre first released screenshots they had just a beautiful motion blur in them. When we found out about ATI's MEMEXPORT capabilities I thought that was what we were seeing for the first time - they were instancing the motion blurred geometry across the axis, then anisotropically blurring the textures in real-time and using the alpha-blended render-target texture for each of the geometry instances. It would be a next-gen, more expensive, but beautiful-looking way of doing what current-gen systems do by a) mip-mapping to a low-res texture or b) lerping among precalculated blurred-about-an-axis textures.

When they later relased a screenshot with some mip-mapped wall textures they claimed it was some mistake and I took for that. But from the latest screenshot, of Tokyo inparticular, it seems like they intend to use a), the worst-looking method, with the geometry instancing, after all. Now, I can understand why they don't use b) - they've already pointed out how difficult it is to fit the high-quality textures on a DVD9 and they have a whole city to model, and they don't need the burden of storing precalculated textures on top of that. But kicking it back down to a) is kind of disappointing and I wonder if it wouldn't be better just to turn the blur off and aim for a render-target texture with the next release.

Of course, alot of these screenshots for the X360 have been a rollercoaster, so it wouldn't surprise me if the latest build uses a high-quality method and they just messed up on which build to take the screenshot off of...

 

[Trojan X]

I told you...! I told you all.

Oh well.

 

[Beowolf]

good grief, can't these lazy ass developers make a racing game that is 60fps?

I refuse to buy this game. Who cares if the cars look real if we have to watch the scenery move by like a slide show, and nothing looks worse than 30fps reflections on the cars. Just check Forza's horrible reflections.

Geez. I can't wait to see what the PS3 has to offer with games like GT5.

 

[Beer Monkey]

good grief, can't these lazy ass developers make a racing game that is 60fps?

They can, but their priorities are all screwed up.

I bet they could get it in 60fps for 480p and 30fps for 720p, but they're probably be too chickenshit to do it. They'd get some major flack from the high-def gamers, that's for sure. Microsoft would get some real grief about their system 'only being able to handle high-def at lower framerates'.

 

[dark10x]

Well, the point is that Bizzare is ALWAYS DEVELOPING FOR LAUNCHES.

PGR1 was a launch title, though, and it ran at 60 fps while looking fantastic. PGR2 was not launch, however, and saw framerate reduction. While PGR2 is more detailed, I actually found it less visually impressive in the end...and 30 fps only made that worse.

 

[Beowolf]

exactly, they try so hard to go with eye candy instead of focusing on the important part. All racers should be built with 60 fps in mind and everything should revolve around that. Instead they pour on graphics to a ridiculous degree. Do we need THAT much detail in the scenery?

Just make it look great and run fast. PGR3 is OFF my list.

 

[Dr_Cogent]

Boycott 360!

*until an exclusive game I can't live without comes out*

 

[Beowolf]

More and more each day XBOX360 is living up to the title XBOX 1.5

 

[dark10x]

exactly, they try so hard to go with eye candy instead of focusing on the important part. All racers should be built with 60 fps in mind and everything should revolve around that. Instead they pour on graphics to a ridiculous degree. Do we need THAT much detail in the scenery?

Just make it look great and run fast. PGR3 is OFF my list.

I agree.

Those crowds, for example, DO look awesome...but I'd drop them in a split second if it meant 60 fps. I appreciate tons of detail, but it becomes considerably less impressive when the framerate takes a massive hit.

 

[Beowolf]

Yea, like make the crowds a cut scene or something at the end? It never bothered me to see cardboard cutouts. If you are stopping on the road to see people then something is wrong with you.

 

[OptimusPrime]

I agree.

Those crowds, for example, DO look awesome...but I'd drop them in a split second if it meant 60 fps. I appreciate tons of detail, but it becomes considerably less impressive when the framerate takes a massive hit.

You talk like someone who plays X360 or Xbox...but your avatar says otherwise. :lol

 

[Helznicht]

Im getting a 360, but I will not buy a racing game this gen thats not 60 FPS. Period.

We were fairly close to Photo Realistic last gen. If we are ONLY 5 to 6 times as powerful this gen than last, there is plenty of room to improve all 3 areas of a game (graphics, framerate and resolution) with room to spare. PGR3 will not be bought.

 

[dark10x]

You talk like someone who plays X360 or Xbox...but your avatar says otherwise. :lol

I play good games regardless of platform. Your suggestion leads me to believe that you do not, however.

The XBOX is a great machine and I have already completely paid off a 360. One can favor a certain company, but that does not mean that they need only stick with them.

THIS issue has nothing to do with that, however.

 

[Beowolf]

exactly, this gen racing games looked pretty good. You would think that next gen should be able to increase the graphics, number of cars etc... and maintain silky smooth 60 fps at all times. Instead developers want to render each teeth in the mouths of every crowd member instead of maintaining the sense of speed in a racing title.

 

[Trojan X]

Well like I said to everyone here several months ago. GT4 looks damn good and realistic and the game is 60fps, Daytona 2 kicks ass visually along with Scud Race with awesome looking detail even compared to today's standard and it still moves in a rock SOLID 60fps. It DOESN'T matter regarding the amount of details, cityscape or whatever you put into games such as PGR. Racing are really at their best when they're running smooth as silk and realistically as possible at 60fps. PS2 and the Model 3 fades ill in comparison to the Xbox 360 and yet PGR3 is 30fps.

Repeating myself again: the reason the PGR3 video was 60fps was because it was encoded at 60fps, double-framing a 30fps image rather than dishing out a liquid 60fps video. In other words, they captured PGR at it's true rate, bumped up the speed then encoded in 60fps. Simple as that.

Oh well... Let's hope that the game DOES move as good as the developers said it does but this time, let our eyes be the judge and not their words.

Anyway, I'll still play the game only because I am curious of its playability and whether it truly beats M:SR (notice that I didn't say PGR or PGR2).

Fingers cross still...

 

[Lunar Aura]

wait a minute. if the game is locked enough with all effects ON, running at 30fps for a playable show demo and they have over a month to optimize, wouldnt that be a good sign for 60fps?

"More and more each day XBOX360 is living up to the title XBOX 1.5"

gears of war...1 core...OMGHISTFUTHNXKBYE!

 

[norinrad21]

Unacceptable in this day and age, but then again anything is possible, Bush became a president twice


Fzero on the N64 was running at 60fps from what i remember

 

[Beer Monkey]

More and more each day XBOX360 is living up to the title XBOX 1.5

I don't think so. The 360 isn't to blame for anything here, it's just a bad game design decision. On any current or future platform you can to go too high of a level of detail for 60fps gameplay.

 

[Dr_Cogent]

I don't think so. The 360 isn't to blame for anything here, it's just a bad game design decision. On any current or future platform you can to go too high of a level of detail for 60fps gameplay.

Yeah, you can't blame the hardware because the game runs at 30fps. Devs can push anything to it's limits.

Now, if PS3 can do something similar only at 60fps or even be better graphically, that will be what hurts MS in the tech department.

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

You talk like someone who plays X360 or Xbox...but your avatar says otherwise. :lol

Haven't been here long or something? Dude it's dark10x, he would play all 3 versions of the same game just to check out differences.

As for the avatar, MGS is one of his favorite franchises, what of it? With MGS4 being shown he would be excited as hell, cause I know I am.