enanogrande
Member
Both EU & US Blogs had the same info, but it's good to know there's some movement on the issue. Hopefully shit gets resolved.
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Buy $50 Driveclub PS+ upgrade, lose access if your PS+ sub lapses
- Thread starter alr1ght
- Start date
Both EU & US Blogs had the same info, but it's good to know there's some movement on the issue. Hopefully shit gets resolved.
Thanks for taking notice, seems like we will actually be hearing more about this topic Soon.
breakfuss
Member
I get what you're saying, I just have my doubts as to whether it's some nefarious scheme to lock people in. Looks like they're fumbling a bit with the communication but it's still perfectly clear what my options are. If you "demo" it for a bit you can later upgrade at a slightly reduced price. Tradeoff being it will always require a PS+ sub. Yes, that is sort of lame but can we say for certain it's by design? This is the same wonky service that just mistakenly gave away the entire God of War collection. At this moment I want to believe that this was the best they could do. And, no, offering an upgrade at ~30 for doesn't work since it undercuts retail.
Only thing I'm unsure about is whether the option exists to go with a full digital retail version should you opt out of the PS+ version (if that's even possible).
For those of you who are saying no one is forcing us to buy the upgrade and we can buy the regular version, you are so missing the issue entirely.
The issue is they promised us that we would have an advantage by having PS+ by getting a good sized demo (which I agree they have, it was smaller than I expected but I'm not complaining) and by giving us a way to pay a discounted price to upgrade it to the full version (I will complain a little that I expected more of a discount but once again, ok, I'm wrong, it's more than I thought, oh well, game will have to be really good for me to buy it and most likely I'll just wait til it's cheaper. But I won't deny they gave us a discount).
The problem is, when they add that if you buy it at that discounted price, you have to have PS+ to play the game. Which suddenly turns it from a "not as much of a discount as I thought but they kept their word" to "they not only didn't really give us a true discount, they tried to rip us off if we buy the PS+ upgrade" (pretty much adding insult to injury. It's worse than not even offering the upgrade cause at least then they aren't trying to rip us off and treat us like we are idiots they can take advantage of). Meaning they completely lied and more. We didn't get a discount really for having PS+ as they advertised, we got them trying to rip us off. That is why it is offensive and not just disappointing and just move on.
And if you really think that paying 10 dollars less but having to pay 50 dollars to get that 10 dollar discount plus 50 a year to play the game is a better deal than paying 10 more and getting the game for life, well, I don't know what to say except I think you're not very far sighted. I'm dirt poor and 10 dollars isn't worth the trade off.
The issue is they promised us that we would have an advantage by having PS+ by getting a good sized demo (which I agree they have, it was smaller than I expected but I'm not complaining) and by giving us a way to pay a discounted price to upgrade it to the full version (I will complain a little that I expected more of a discount but once again, ok, I'm wrong, it's more than I thought, oh well, game will have to be really good for me to buy it and most likely I'll just wait til it's cheaper. But I won't deny they gave us a discount).
The problem is, when they add that if you buy it at that discounted price, you have to have PS+ to play the game. Which suddenly turns it from a "not as much of a discount as I thought but they kept their word" to "they not only didn't really give us a true discount, they tried to rip us off if we buy the PS+ upgrade" (pretty much adding insult to injury. It's worse than not even offering the upgrade cause at least then they aren't trying to rip us off and treat us like we are idiots they can take advantage of). Meaning they completely lied and more. We didn't get a discount really for having PS+ as they advertised, we got them trying to rip us off. That is why it is offensive and not just disappointing and just move on.
And if you really think that paying 10 dollars less but having to pay 50 dollars to get that 10 dollar discount plus 50 a year to play the game is a better deal than paying 10 more and getting the game for life, well, I don't know what to say except I think you're not very far sighted. I'm dirt poor and 10 dollars isn't worth the trade off.
Liberty4all
Banned
I've told them whether the answer is good or bad, some type of official response is needed. With that said I get that with a big company it will likely take some time to respond as it affects multiple regions meaning multiple people across SCEA and SCEE they have to talk it over with.
The main gist they wanted me to clarify though, they are listening and your input IS important to them.
Good to hear. I know I'm going retail on Driveclub, but there's some real reason to have some concern about dropping $50 and then having limited access to the game later on.
Thanks for reaching out.
Q
Queen of Hunting
Unconfirmed Member
Microsoft is knee deep in getting their good will and rebuilding themselves after that bullshit last year and sony is slowly going into the territory microsoft went in last year
If this thread really is a source of responses to Sony, I guess I'll spell out my feelings on it.
I'm someone who has PS+, but was already planning to buy the full retail release within the launch window. The game looks fantastic, and the team behind it is composed of names I've followed in many of the driving games I've enjoyed over the years.
Seeing this offering has changed my outlook. Simply put, I don't want individual purchases tied to an ongoing paid membership for the same reasons I don't want my purchases tied to an underlying network infrastructure. Making an individual offering so similar to the existing "save a little extra because of your PS+ account," but that requires the membership (particularly for a game with a meaningful amount of single-player content) undermines what I perceive as the value from that PS+ membership. If the sale prices for PS+ were all structured like this, simply put, I wouldn't have that membership. This is completely apart from the "free" titles offered through the service.
The language used in the promotional video, about "empowering" the player etc, comes off as almost insulting. In the same way I recognize when a local grocery store, the week before a buy-1-get-1-free sale, doubles the price of the eligible goods puts me off, this PS+ "upgrade" frustrates me as a buyer. Enough to change my purchase intent.
I understand the potential bind Sony as the publisher has been put in because of the expectations built up for the PS+ Edition of this game. I understand they need to make a return on a game that's obviously had a lot of work put into it. The answer is not to make an "upgrade" at odds with (and dependent on) the whole value structure of the platform's paid membership. Something as simple as offering the full digital edition of the game at the $53.99 price point for PS+ subscribers (as many recent titles like Wolfenstein have seen) would be enough of a "halfway" point between the limited (free) PS+ edition and the full retail package for my sensibilities. I don't think that's unreasonable, and I feel like I'm not alone in that sentiment.
I'm someone who has PS+, but was already planning to buy the full retail release within the launch window. The game looks fantastic, and the team behind it is composed of names I've followed in many of the driving games I've enjoyed over the years.
Seeing this offering has changed my outlook. Simply put, I don't want individual purchases tied to an ongoing paid membership for the same reasons I don't want my purchases tied to an underlying network infrastructure. Making an individual offering so similar to the existing "save a little extra because of your PS+ account," but that requires the membership (particularly for a game with a meaningful amount of single-player content) undermines what I perceive as the value from that PS+ membership. If the sale prices for PS+ were all structured like this, simply put, I wouldn't have that membership. This is completely apart from the "free" titles offered through the service.
The language used in the promotional video, about "empowering" the player etc, comes off as almost insulting. In the same way I recognize when a local grocery store, the week before a buy-1-get-1-free sale, doubles the price of the eligible goods puts me off, this PS+ "upgrade" frustrates me as a buyer. Enough to change my purchase intent.
I understand the potential bind Sony as the publisher has been put in because of the expectations built up for the PS+ Edition of this game. I understand they need to make a return on a game that's obviously had a lot of work put into it. The answer is not to make an "upgrade" at odds with (and dependent on) the whole value structure of the platform's paid membership. Something as simple as offering the full digital edition of the game at the $53.99 price point for PS+ subscribers (as many recent titles like Wolfenstein have seen) would be enough of a "halfway" point between the limited (free) PS+ edition and the full retail package for my sensibilities. I don't think that's unreasonable, and I feel like I'm not alone in that sentiment.
Vigilant Gambit
Member
If what you're saying is correct, then there is no such thing as the "PS+ edition" of the game. Sony will be creating an exception where a game when obtained for free with PS+ is different from the same game when purchased. They have never done that before. I think that is unlikely.
What they seem to be doing, from my perspective, is the exact same thing they have done before. Release a game for free on day one, with day-one DLC. This is a scenario they have gone through countless times. When Virtua Fighter 5 Final Showdown was released, it was as a PS+ free game. If you didn't have a subscription, I believe it cost $25 or $30. It had a bunch of DLC that cost roughly $25 total. If you get the game + DLC, you lose access to all of it when your subscription lapses (unless you then buy the digital game outside of your subscription for the $30).
In the situation you're describing, there would be two versions of Driveclub; the one you get on blu-ray and digitally as a non-PS+ subscriber, and the version that you get digitally as a PS+ subscriber. But there would be no actual distinction between the two on the store; you simply only get one digital option depending on your subscription status, which would be totally new for Sony.
That has been a PS+ oversight for a long time. When a game launches as a PS+ free title, and you're a subscriber, if you want to buy the game to keep, you have to wait until there is a lapse in your subscription, and then buy it. Essentially, Sony prevents you from spending the money until you need to. This has the unfortunate side effect of putting a 1-month timer on your purchases where they will expire if you don't connect to the internet.
Rawket Lawnchair
Member
The only reason the thread has remained civil so far, is that Sony proved that they listen; if it were some other publisher, then everything would be uglier. Hopefully they will keep up this good habit they've developed over the last year or so.
Parhelion69
Member
This is for the payers
Miles Quaritch
Member
It's not like they don't already know. I mean Rushy went to seek clarification last night and he seems to have lost his way....
Maybe we should out search parties?
Hamster Plugin
Member
Lol, that upgrade in EU costs €50. I can get the full game from US PSN for slightly less than that ($60 = €45)
vpance
Member
You're not alone, but everyone will put a different value proposition on it. Sony are testing the waters to see what strategy maximizes revenues split across 3 "SKU"s of DC. They won't know until they try. People will jump in if it's cheap enough though. It's about figuring out what the sweet spot for the price of this DLC is, while trying not to step on the toes of retailers. I'm not sure they can do both though. I suspect at $40, more than a few on here would change their minds. It would feel really, really dirty though wouldn't it? "Owning" a perma rental game? But everyone has their price.
Personally, I rarely trade in games and have gone mostly digital. I also don't replay old games much if ever anymore. If they could launch this DLC at $40 I think I'd bite. At $50 I'd rather buy the $60 one just to avoid the stigma of having the rental version.
Liberty4all
Banned
These things take time to respond to especially because its a global issue that affects more than one region. SCEA already knew about this specific thread before I emailed I think they are looking over the feedback. The key takeaway right now though is that they ARE listening. Community feedback is very important this Gen ... I feel that they have shown they value what the community has to say.
With that said give them a little time to come up with a coherent response that makes sense. Differnt regional head offices, multiple people to discuss the issue with.
Forum communities cross all regions, but each region has its own set of Community Managers, pr etc I suspect they want to have an answer that covers all regions, and coordinating that takes time to make sure everyone is on the same page.
That's my take at least.
What I hope for is that all of us cut down on the noise regarding what is being given for the PS+ version versus what was insinuated previously (although not technically promised.) While bets were certainly hedged there and the tune was changed, we should let that one go. They never had to give away 1% of their game for free.
It's really about the "upgrade". What's needed to save face here is:
1) Let users own the game beyond PS+ for that $50, or,
2) Lower the upgrade price
Pretty simple. $10 savings vs. owning the physical copy for $10 more = a wash at best, and at worst, a cruel joke for PS+ members who would all be more than willing to buy into the full game but will be hard pressed to see the value in doing so... and to feel slapped in the face, no less.
Huh. I feel this exact same way. I'd bite begrudgingly at 40, but 50 makes 60 look better. PEACE.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
If this thread really is a source of responses to Sony, I guess I'll spell out my feelings on it.
I'm someone who has PS+, but was already planning to buy the full retail release within the launch window. The game looks fantastic, and the team behind it is composed of names I've followed in many of the driving games I've enjoyed over the years.
Seeing this offering has changed my outlook. Simply put, I don't want individual purchases tied to an ongoing paid membership for the same reasons I don't want my purchases tied to an underlying network infrastructure. Making an individual offering so similar to the existing "save a little extra because of your PS+ account," but that requires the membership (particularly for a game with a meaningful amount of single-player content) undermines what I perceive as the value from that PS+ membership. If the sale prices for PS+ were all structured like this, simply put, I wouldn't have that membership. This is completely apart from the "free" titles offered through the service.
The language used in the promotional video, about "empowering" the player etc, comes off as almost insulting.In the same way I recognize when a local grocery store, the week before a buy-1-get-1-free sale, doubles the price of the eligible goods puts me off, this PS+ "upgrade" frustrates me as a buyer. Enough to change my purchase intent.
I understand the potential bind Sony as the publisher has been put in because of the expectations built up for the PS+ Edition of this game. I understand they need to make a return on a game that's obviously had a lot of work put into it. The answer is not to make an "upgrade" at odds with (and dependent on) the whole value structure of the platform's paid membership. Something as simple as offering the full digital edition of the game at the $53.99 price point for PS+ subscribers (as many recent titles like Wolfenstein have seen) would be enough of a "halfway" point between the limited (free) PS+ edition and the full retail package for my sensibilities. I don't think that's unreasonable, and I feel like I'm not alone in that sentiment.
Isn't that illegal in your country of residence? I'm pretty sure that's illegal in the UK (or at least that's what I was told).
Anyway this game has been a PR nightmare I'm sure Sony realises have this lingering will do them no favours.
I wouldn't bite at 40 if I only got to play it with PS+. It better be dirt cheap if I have to continue to pay to play it (I'm thinking 20 would be the max I'd consider for a brand new game, and that is just to consider and I don't think I'd even bite at that price). I mean I've managed to find games that were new at 40 (I bought TLOU the first week it came out at 45). I'd rather just wait for the game to get that cheap (cause to get to 40 won't take too long).
And honestly, unless they make the upgrade dirt cheap, I'm not going to be happy with a resolution that isn't that you pay for an upgrade that makes the game yours.
Hell, to be honest, I don't tend to buy DLC for PS+ games because I don't like that I won't have access if I don't have PS+ to something I paid for. That isn't as offensive they do that though cause it's true DLC (and it's a lot cheaper than buying a game). Paying to upgrade PS+ version to the full game really isn't true DLC, it just makes the game the same as the retail version, it is not really adding on anything new. And it's a lot more expensive how they priced it than you'd expect to pay for DLC on a game.
My two cents is that the confusion this whole situation has caused shows that it could lead to bad PR later when Joe Schmo finds out that his $50 copy of driveclub doesnt work anymore after his sub expires. Esoecially when thatisnt what we expect from PS+.
Furthermore, I think Sony would lose more money through the lost sales this causes than they would gain through it. I think there are very few consumers out there who would keep paying for a PS+ sub just so they can play the singleplayer portion of a game again. I think there are a significant amount of people who would avoid buying the game at all for fear of that happening.
Furthermore, I think Sony would lose more money through the lost sales this causes than they would gain through it. I think there are very few consumers out there who would keep paying for a PS+ sub just so they can play the singleplayer portion of a game again. I think there are a significant amount of people who would avoid buying the game at all for fear of that happening.
I still don't get why people are bitching that the PS+ upgrade isn't cheaper than $50. I know it's tied to PS+, but why in the hell would Sony discount a brand new game to like $30 as some people so it should be?! I seriously have no idea why people think this and it absolutely blows my mind that there are complaints about this. Spend the extra $10 for the non PS+ version and call it a day. Why is this such a big deal?
Neuromancer
Member
It's not the $50. It's that when your PS+ expires you lose access to the game you paid $50 for. No other PS+ discount works like that.
Wow, that's lame. It should be treated as a discounted purchase, anything less is bullshit. I would feel differently if it were cheaper than $10 short of full price, but that's not the case. With this information in mind, I will definitely avoid purchasing the upgrade for #DC unless they change their policy. It just makes no sense.
I'm kinda afraid to read back through the thread knowing a few people might be championing this. Ew.
I'm kinda afraid to read back through the thread knowing a few people might be championing this. Ew.
wapplew
Member
If I'm going to lose access to the game when my PS Plus subscription is up, I'm not paying a dime for it. Full game best be free with a PS Plus subscription. Any monetary value where Sony strips access to the game away if you don't subscribe to plus is absurd.
I'm shocked Sony came up with such a stupid plan for selling DriveClub on PS Plus. Not sure how anyone along the way didn't realize this is a horrible idea. For 10 dollars savings (which price won't go down alongside retail price drops ) you might as well buy the disc and then trade it in when finsihed.
The problem is that $50 of content you paid for should not be locked because you stop subscribing to a service.
Useless pride.
SolidSnakeUS
Member
Any update from Rushy?
HORRORSHØW
Member
soony
Chaplain
Member
I just wanted to say thank you (on behalf of all of us here on GAF) for taking the time to respond in this thread and letting the appropriate parties know that this is a problem for many PS4 customers.
Haha!
I'd like to play my game 5 years from now.
"renew your PS+ for 5 years"
I'd like to play my games 15 years from now.
"ummmmm"
Do you really place no value on ownership? Or do you have other ulterior motives?
How dare you attempt to insults someone's pride. That's disregarding the fact none of this has anything to do with pride. You might as well have said
"useless consumer rights".
DidntKnowJack
Member
If Sony is reading this thread, I want to reiterate my feelings on this.
I've always had the intention of buying the full retail game of Drive Club even though I am a Plus member. So none of this directly affects me. Nonetheless, I find this business model disturbing because to me it's an indication that Playstation Plus is changing. And changing into something i want nothing to do with.
Free games with Plus are fine and dandy, but I know going in that those are going to go away someday. That's fine, I haven't really lost anything because the only money I put into that investment was the subscription price. But this Drive Club thing is different. If I'm paying the subscription price, then paying $50 more to unlock the full game, I should no longer be tethered to the limitations of Playstation Plus. This is no longer a freebie. The notion that we should lose that game after our subscription runs out is ludicrous.
For me, this taps into that same nerve the whole #NODRM fiasco tapped into. If people are paying a substantial amount of money for a game, they want to retain ownership of that product.
Reverse this policy, Sony. Or I should say, don't implement it. It's a clear distinction - don't hinge a business model based on people's fear of losing content, base it on the notion that people will resubscribe because they love the service. This is not the way to move forward.
I've always had the intention of buying the full retail game of Drive Club even though I am a Plus member. So none of this directly affects me. Nonetheless, I find this business model disturbing because to me it's an indication that Playstation Plus is changing. And changing into something i want nothing to do with.
Free games with Plus are fine and dandy, but I know going in that those are going to go away someday. That's fine, I haven't really lost anything because the only money I put into that investment was the subscription price. But this Drive Club thing is different. If I'm paying the subscription price, then paying $50 more to unlock the full game, I should no longer be tethered to the limitations of Playstation Plus. This is no longer a freebie. The notion that we should lose that game after our subscription runs out is ludicrous.
For me, this taps into that same nerve the whole #NODRM fiasco tapped into. If people are paying a substantial amount of money for a game, they want to retain ownership of that product.
Reverse this policy, Sony. Or I should say, don't implement it. It's a clear distinction - don't hinge a business model based on people's fear of losing content, base it on the notion that people will resubscribe because they love the service. This is not the way to move forward.
Very well put.
turnbuckle
Member
Damn, I'm mildly interested in this game and was gonna pick it up to have a racer on my PS4...but I'll wait. I don't forsee me letting my PS+ lapse (I've had it since it starter years ago) but this is a shitty tactic that just annoys me enough to pass on the game.
Dumb dumb dumb dumb.
Yeah, exactly.
Dumb dumb dumb dumb.
Yeah, exactly.
Yep. Anyone who has entered this thread to claim that people that people are overreacting should first read Jack's post so that they have an actual understanding of where people are coming from. Aside from being a lousy deal in the first place, it's something that could set a troubling precedent.
Senor Kami
Banned
I know it's been said but I have to believe that this is all a big misunderstanding or something that will definitely be changed close to launch. $50 to unlock the full game vs $60 game is such a close number. It would seem like a pretty big jerk move that is definitely going to confuse a lot of people.
But then another part of me thinks there's a massive number of people on PS4 PS+ due to it being required for online multiplayer and that for any of them buying the digital version, the price would effectively be $50 rather than $60 and I don't think they discount Day 1 Digital releases so there would have to be some catch involved. That actually makes more sense. Kinda a crummy move. Maybe they'll then sell a $10 PS+ Pass to make this a normal retail release. I don't know. PS+ on PS3 has been the best thing to ever happen in my life as a console gamer. When they announced the very concept of a PS+ Edition at E3, that had me worried about it on PS4. Pulling something like this... that kinda deads PS+ on PS4 for me. It's currently something I want as a PS3 owner. Stuff like this is turning it into XBL when I only had a 360; it's something I don't like paying for but feel like I have to in order to get what I want out of my games.
I hope they start making announcements that turn it back into something I happily pay for.
But then another part of me thinks there's a massive number of people on PS4 PS+ due to it being required for online multiplayer and that for any of them buying the digital version, the price would effectively be $50 rather than $60 and I don't think they discount Day 1 Digital releases so there would have to be some catch involved. That actually makes more sense. Kinda a crummy move. Maybe they'll then sell a $10 PS+ Pass to make this a normal retail release. I don't know. PS+ on PS3 has been the best thing to ever happen in my life as a console gamer. When they announced the very concept of a PS+ Edition at E3, that had me worried about it on PS4. Pulling something like this... that kinda deads PS+ on PS4 for me. It's currently something I want as a PS3 owner. Stuff like this is turning it into XBL when I only had a 360; it's something I don't like paying for but feel like I have to in order to get what I want out of my games.
I hope they start making announcements that turn it back into something I happily pay for.
vpance
Member
And like I said, everyone will put their own value proposition on it. I can't begrudge a company for trying to make money since I'm always free to abstain from buying.
The best scenario for Sony is if everyone buys either the $60 digital version or $50 DLC one. And somewhere out there are the large numbers of people who are ok trading in games for $5-$40 and never seeing them again, AKA an extended rental. If cheap enough, DLC PS+ versions could grab a piece of that pie.
The problem is that there are two silly points here:
- regarding what the PS+ version contains exactly, people complaining that the free stuff they're getting is not quite up to their standards. While there might have been maybe unfortunate or PooR choice of words originally, or before the year long delay which presumably led to more content for the full game (who knows) anyone who was expecting half of one of Sony's big 1st party game content or something, for free, day 1, were only going in for a disappontment
- regarding the licensing issue, essentially people are complaining that they can't get a significant discount day 1 without any trade-off. The whole $50 upgrade thing could have not existed, people could still get a taste of the game and just buy it retail/online at full price, and I'm fairly sure no one would have bat an eyelid, although the end result what have been exactly the same.
In this context it's rather weird to hear call to arms for a supposed "anti-consumer" practise when you can just ignore the free PS+ version, or the upgrade (or both) and just buy the game or not like you would with any other. The rest just feels like a bit an "gamer entitlement" tbh.
Pyramid head
Banned
You answered your own question.
The $10 discount really isn't that significant an amount. That discount should really be mitigated by the money you're paying for your + membership. Isn't that the point of these sorts of deals? There's no reason to deny your customers ownership of a product they just paid fifty frigging dollars for, regardless of whether they continue to subscribe to + or not.
I really don't understand what Sony are hoping to gain through this.
HYPOTHETICAL QUESTION:
How many of those who don't want to support the game now will change your stance if Sony/Evo offer a $50 upgrade for the full game with no strings attached, announce it and apologize for the oversight? Do you have it in you to forgive this mistake?
There is quite a good chance of this happening, so it would be interesting to see where everyone stands.
How many of those who don't want to support the game now will change your stance if Sony/Evo offer a $50 upgrade for the full game with no strings attached, announce it and apologize for the oversight? Do you have it in you to forgive this mistake?
There is quite a good chance of this happening, so it would be interesting to see where everyone stands.
turnbuckle
Member
Sure you can. Acknowledging there's a business side to the equation doesn't mean consumers aren't allowed to criticize said business's practices.
You can be indifferent, you can support the decision, or you can be upset by it. You're free to decide, although I find it a little weird if you're veiling acceptance of their behavior with a general statement about supply/demand.
Are you REALLY going to play it even 2 years from now?
Maybe it was just a mistake, my question is, why does it really matters? Do you think it's going to be the same even with regular PS plus games?
Personally, I'd have every reason to shift my reaction (and purchase intent) back if there ends up being a simple resolution where this is addressed. I think it would be silly to hold a grudge in a situation like this where the end goal is having a product offering that the customer is comfortable with, and that's achieved.
Miles Quaritch
Member
I guess that's true. It's just annoying that we're left waiting so long, gives the impression that Sony are hoping this will blow over...
I certainly hope we get an answer before the gameplay trailer tomorrow...
eddfromtheriver
Banned
If you could somehow make the higher ups know, that now that Sony has all this good momentum going... we don't want them to start taking bad decisions (such as this one), please don't, i am really close to buying a PS4, but if they're gonna start doing this sort of thing now that they are winning well... i wouldn't bet on it.