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[odhiex]

You guys are too invested in marketing buzz/words, they just simply want to sell you a product. It's never been a "sacred bond" from the publisher to consumers. This is a pretty common practice, especially when the sh*t involve lots of $$$.

"This is a genre defining game"
"Generational leap in graphics"
"Next-gen gameplay"
"True to life, the most photo realistic game you have ever seen"
Bla bla bla....

Take a sip of tea (or beer or whatever), sit down and relax and try to read some jargons like the above in many articles you could find
*try to read them with your heaviest tone of voice. You might find it funny, trust me.

In the end, the latest hardware will get "the better" version at the very least. So relaaaax, it is not that bad. Exclusive games will follow sooner or later.

 

[Panajev2001a]

The takes in that thread are really something.

P Panajev2001a I am genuinely confused by your stance on all of this. You are saying people are taking things out of context, but you yourself didn’t seem to believe Sony would do cross-gen.

In January 2020 you wrote this;
"What a disingenuous statement. The generationless model (outside of the PC world where you can buy and assemble all your parts yourselves) is about increasing revenue and profit margins and Sony is the greedy af one .

Abandoning console users are droughts before the new system comes out is not what they do (Sony kept swinging at the tail end of ALL their console generations hence you got TLoU at the end of last generation, GT4 at the end of the previous, and many other big titles... are GoT and TLoU2 now... they even made exclusive titles for the previous generation when the new generation was already out).

Sony has always had long generations very well supported with software before and after the new generation titles are out, but they use their first party studios to make sure gamers get the best out of the new generation machines as soon as possible. A cross generation title costs a lot more to make or screws over the new console or the old console. Consoles are not just locked down PC, I want to see developers also focusing on the new console while I can also carry over my previous, maybe enhanced, library with BC (software is the biggest investment after all)."

This was the message you were responding to;
"because back then it was impossible to develop games for PS3 and PS4. Completely different architectures.
With PS4 and PS5 it doesn’t make any sense. They could easily develop for both at the same time.
They only reason why Sony is not doing this, is because they are greedy af.
If Microsoft would do this, people would say here that Microsoft is abandoning their lastgen System way too fast.
bow that Sony is doing it, its suddenly great abe gamer friendly strategy. Lol

oh the irony."

So correct me if I’m wrong, but now that Sony are doing ‘the generationless model’ you agree that they are greedy?

I agree they are greedier than they were in previous transitions or more cost conscious depending on how you want to look at it (but closing small studios/JAPAN Studio restructuring, etc... already kind of gave it away that their strategy has been adjusted by the leadership shuffle a bit). In previous transitions the balance of first party software exclusive to the new generation was higher than the late generation games they would publish as the new console was coming out on the market or even after as we discussed earlier.

I do think that between 0 exclusives and a mix of next generation exclusives and late PS4 games with a PS5 "patch" developed for them there is still a gap and the latter is still a lot closer to the classic model PS console transitions enjoyed for decades though.

Also something seems to have given you the impression that Sony would do what they did previously (support the PS4 and PS5 separately, with the PS4 getting its own exclusive games late in the generation like how the PS3 got GT6/TLoU and how the PS2 got GT4 and GoD of War 2), did Jim Ryan’s interview give you that impression or was it just an educated guess?

This part in particular seems to show that you weren’t expecting titles like GoW, Horizon and GT7 to be cross-gen?

but they use their first party studios to make sure gamers get the best out of the new generation machines as soon as possible. A cross generation title costs a lot more to make or screws over the new console or the old console.

This isn’t a shit post I just genuinely don’t understand your position.

I was not expecting GT7 and perhaps GoW too, especially GT7, to be going out on PS4 too... I was not expecting titles to go out on PC... no on both fronts. I was not thinking at which title was going to come out possibly as a late generation PS4 release (like in previous generations) and I may have also been taken a bit by the launch period frenzy, in retrospect I think some titles being cross generation (which from a user point of view is like a PS4 title released after PS5 is out that can play in enhanced BC on PS5.... similar pros and cons... more cons than pros for me, but ).

At the time the discussion was also quite focused on the cross-generation forever, min specs do not matter, games are infinitely scalable... Vs. game exclusives and the classic generation model (and the role first party studios should play in it IMHO). I stand by what I said: the first party studio's job is to help prove the new platform and give clear and strong reasons for people to upgrade instead of people (think iOS device model) buying potential and living in a sliding cross-generation window.
I also think that first parties need to help ensure the transition does not leave previous generation consoles in the dirt with a draught of games oin the 6-8 months before the console launches and that you do not just give them token small scale titles to keep them quiet: GoW2 on PS2, GT6 on PS3, TLoU on PS3, etc... are all examples of titles which could have been held back and optimised as exclusives for the console that was ready to launch or had just launched on the market and that were not. They were the subject of plenty of discussions.

Again, I do think that between 0 exclusives and a mix of next generation exclusives and late PS4 games with a PS5 "patch" developed for them there is still a gap and the latter is still a lot closer to the classic model PS console transitions enjoyed for decades.

 

[GymWolf]

Fuck me... anyone who doesn't just agree that Sony are wonderful all of the time is an XBox fan? Grow the fuck up.

I've been on this forum for years and have always been a Playstation fan, but I'm big enough and old enough to be able to accept it when they do something bad.

FML, this console war shit is pathetic.

Don't waste your time dude.

 

[Clear]

Can you elaborate on that? Which lack of diversification are you referring to?

The Xbox strategy is all about uniformity of experience. The idea being something like you buy Forza and play it on your 65" big tv with your Series X, but when your partner needs screen-time you can simply switch to your office setup with a 1440p monitor attached to a Series S and continue where you left off.

Great idea, nothing wrong with it. But it demands that every SKU is exactly the same in terms of content, achievements and progression. So from a basic design perspective hands are tied, however that shouldn't preclude the higher spec SKU from employing techniques uniquely suited to its hardware to maximize benefit. For instance, PS4 Pro having special provision for checkerboarding in hardware giving some impetus for additional work on the renderer end. And if they are looking into the engine to provision support for that, they might find time to add other small tweaks.

Series X versus S doesn't have this as far as I know. The uniformity goes down to API/hardware level, meaning that the only meaningful difference between the two SKU's is likely to be in config files and other parameters. There is no reason to do more than that.

In a situation like that, common sense dictates that if you want the best result across both SKU's you max out the low spec profile, as that's the likely candidate for critical fails in terms of function and performance, then see what resources you have left over on the upper profile and just tweak up the config parameters higher.

This is the argument for why S "holds back" X. There's nothing whatsoever to be gained from diversifying the builds in terms of production efficiency, and a hell of a lot of potential issues to be solved or circumvented if you do.

That you also have to OG One, One S, and One X, and PC (at its multifarious specs and steppings) to deal with on top of that, from the same GDK.... fucking hell! I think this should make it evident why devs were less than stoked about this state of affairs.

 

[ZywyPL]

This is the reason why I hate Jim Ryan. He needs to be gone ASAP. Why mention we believe in generations then make all your main games crossgen? He had one job to do which was keep his mouth shut and let the games do the talking.....
After MS said their games were gonna be crossgen Jimbo just couldn't help himself. He had to put his foot in it. Be upfront the games quality would do the rest. They deserve this flak. Just as Good ol Jimbo said why would anyone want to play old games. The guy is out of touch. We need someone with some charisma like Kaz, Jack even Shaun.

The worst thing is, and no one seems to be talking about it, that given modern development times, there's a big chance there won't be any other Horizon, GoW or GT on PS5. So all that 4x CPU power and SSD will be totally wasted.

 

[phil_t98]

Haven't you referred to that Sony was wrong because DFs comments on cross-gen stance?

Regarding Returnal and Ratchet Cerny wasn't wrong ( some here said he lied, LOL)

So your saying that Cerny told the truth, yeah I believe that to, but by doing the biggest hitters such as god of war and gran turismo crow feb then they are gonna be hampered on ps5 by the design of the games. They will look great but they are gonna be held back by lest gen limitations

 

[Ulysses 31]

I played ps360 games without any of those things. Actually, scratch that, ps2 era games.

Yes but GoW creators wanted this "all in one take approach" so they did all those things to avoid loading screens which was a bad trade off IMO.

 

[Panajev2001a]

So your saying that Cerny told the truth, yeah I believe that to, but by doing the biggest hitters such as god of war and gran turismo crow feb then they are gonna be hampered on ps5 by the design of the games. They will look great but they are gonna be held back by lest gen limitations

Yeah, min specs matter.

PS4 will hold GT7 back. How much or how little (and how shitty the PS4 version will end up being or not) depends on if Sony spends the money to treat GT7 versions as two separate games with essentially two separate teams, but that holds the project back anyways.

Depending on users owning a racing wheel or not and the DualSense implementation being well done or not, the PS5 version may still feel very next gen or next gen enough thanks to the control scheme update (which is in line with the comment Ryan made).

 

[Clear]

So your saying that Cerny told the truth, yeah I believe that to, but by doing the biggest hitters such as god of war and gran turismo crow feb then they are gonna be hampered on ps5 by the design of the games. They will look great but they are gonna be held back by lest gen limitations

You are assuming the Xbox model which demands cross-save and cross-progression as mandatory. PS4 to PS5 does not require this.

In actuality, the reverse is true. PS5 must allow PS4 SKU's to run in native PS4 modes on PS5.

 

[reksveks]

Surely GT7 will have cross-platform lobbies by default?

Would that be more important in a Sim type game than an arcade type like FH5?

 

[Guilty_AI]

Yes but GoW creators wanted this "all in one take approach" so they did all those things to avoid loading screens which was a bad trade off IMO.

I also flew across entire open worlds at high speeds in one take

 

[TBiddy]

Great idea, nothing wrong with it. But it demands that every SKU is exactly the same in terms of content, achievements and progression. So from a basic design perspective hands are tied, however that shouldn't preclude the higher spec SKU from employing techniques uniquely suited to its hardware to maximize benefit. For instance, PS4 Pro having special provision for checkerboarding in hardware giving some impetus for additional work on the renderer end. And if they are looking into the engine to provision support for that, they might find time to add other small tweaks.

Series X versus S doesn't have this as far as I know. The uniformity goes down to API/hardware level, meaning that the only meaningful difference between the two SKU's is likely to be in config files and other parameters. There is no reason to do more than that.

From what I can remember we have games running at different framerates and with and without raytracing on the Series S and Series X. I'm not sure how much more you'd want in terms of diversification. The only meaningful difference between the two consoles is literally the graphic prowess, which is also the 'easiest' (least difficult) place to scale, if all else is equal. You're never going to see a major difference between the two consoles in terms of gameplay, but I'm quite certain that will also apply to PS5 / PS5 Pro, as well as XSX X and XSS X or whatever idiotic name they decide to come up with.

 

[SafeOrAlone]

Not all developers are equal. Insomnian having more enely types on screen is relevant ONLY to their game. You already have games with responsive vegetation, persistent debries, amazing animations in the distance (lol) and more (which are some of the issues people seem to have with HFW) - on last gen hardware. There are game with more enemy types and enemies on screen than r&c even now. My opinion is not that cross gen is holding things back (that a fact) - my opinion is that you the severity of lacking next gen features (if any) is per developer and developed game. Not every "next gen" thing is a fit with every new game. I don't know how HFW'll suffer from being developed also for ps4, or how GT7'll suffer or any game that comes next. It's games. You need a case like, I don't know, CP2077, to be able to make your case. But like was said already - everyone is posting record profits.

There is just no case to be made her yet, that's it.

edit:
And like it or not, covid changed things.

You’re missing the point. And no, that type of SSD power that allows Insomniac to innovate with enemy types is not only relevant to them, what are you even saying?

Look, bottom line, when in the planning stages for the next God of War, they need to be taking all their new ideas and make sure they work on PS4 before considering them -

“let’s give Kratos wings again but this time he can fly at will!”

“Nope, scratch that idea. PS4 cpu can’t render that fast and it will take a 15 second loading screen on PS4 for Kratos to lift into the air.”

“okay, how about massive battles against 60 enemies at once?? Let’s top what we did with Gow 3 in that regard!”

“Nope. PS4 cpu can handle 15 enemies on screen at once. Scratch that concept. And you’ll need to shorten this level and add some forced loading/slow walking bits while you’re at it ”

That is exactly the type of stuff they will inevitably run into.

Insomniac didn’t have to do that- they had virtually no limits when it came to designing their game. At least compared to developing for PS4. That’s why we will be hopping through portals in a blink and fighting more enemies than ever at once. That is why Ratchet is not on PS4.

and before you get confused and say “well god of war doesn’t need portal hopping -it’s not about that”, just know that misses the point completely. It’s about the power to make such innovations, not about copying the same gameplay elements and forcing them into God of War. Not sure how obvious that is to you.


The concept of the game is weighed down by the PS4 from the start. If God of War devs wants to use as many types of enemies on screen at once as possible, they will be limited just like Insomniac used to be.
It doesn’t have to be enemy types, this is just an example. But no, it is not at all, only relevant to Insomniac. That’s just...denial.

 

[Vaelka]

This isn't the only thing Sony communicates poorly on or blatantly lies about, but the fanboys are too busy bending over backwards.
It's kinda sad how people let companies get away with extremely shitty and anti-consumer behaviour just they like their products, it's the same with Sony not actually telling developers what their censorship policies are and forcing Japanese devs to write appeals and communicate in English even if they don't have anyone at the office who speaks it.
It's complete bullshit and should be heavily criticized regardless of what you think about their first party games...

 

[phil_t98]

You are assuming the Xbox model which demands cross-save and cross-progression as mandatory. PS4 to PS5 does not require this.

In actuality, the reverse is true. PS5 must allow PS4 SKU's to run in native PS4 modes on PS5.

No am talking game design which Cerny talked about himself, watch the road to PS5 where he says certain design choices had to be made when making games for PS4 such as corridors in certain areas to help with loading and things but the PS5 wouldn’t have those limitations because of the fast SSD. Got watch it and you will see what I mean

 

[phil_t98]

Yeah, min specs matter.

PS4 will hold GT7 back. How much or how little (and how shitty the PS4 version will end up being or not) depends on if Sony spends the money to treat GT7 versions as two separate games with essentially two separate teams, but that holds the project back anyways.

Depending on users owning a racing wheel or not and the DualSense implementation being well done or not, the PS5 version may still feel very next gen or next gen enough thanks to the control scheme update (which is in line with the comment Ryan made).

Out of the games announced I expected gran turismo to be the least effected by the cross gen.

Games like god of war will effect more is my guess, there will be big expansive areas that will be funnelled into a small corridor esque scenario so the PS4 can load the next section

 

[Tomeru]

denial.

Im saying we should take the wait and see approach, instaed of condamning unfinished games on things that we have even yet to see. Its not like seeing halo and laughing at graphics or seeing cp2077 and laughing at bugs. We have yet to see anything from gow or gt7, and dare I say, hfw to suggest they are 100% last gen materials.

There are developers that deserve the benefit of the doubt more than others.

 

[SafeOrAlone]

Im saying we should take the wait and see approach, instaed of condamning unfinished games on things that we have even yet to see. Its not like seeing halo and laughing at graphics or seeing cp2077 and laughing at bugs. We have yet to see anything from gow or gt7, and dare I say, hfw to suggest they are 100% last gen materials.

There are developers that deserve the benefit of the doubt more than others.

There is nothing to wait and see about. These are PS4 - designed games. And there is no way around that.
That’s where the disappointment comes from.

They can still be good games, but they aren’t even allowed to reach their full potential when cross-gen. It’s like sending your star basketball player out with one arm tied behind his back. He’s still gonna be good, but it’s a damn shame. Especially for everyone who paid to see him play

you’re also claiming that the innovations Insomniac are able to make, due to the power of the SSD, are irrelevant to God of War’s development, which doesn’t make any sense. It’s like you’re implying that if they don’t innovate in the exact same way, then it’s not relevant. That’s illogical though, because it’s the power that matters.

 

[Clear]

No am talking game design which Cerny talked about himself, watch the road to PS5 where he says certain design choices had to be made when making games for PS4 such as corridors in certain areas to help with loading and things but the PS5 wouldn’t have those limitations because of the fast SSD. Got watch it and you will see what I mean

I understand. But what needs to be factored in is that like any constraint, if you design intelligently you can work around it and even use it to your advantage.

For example, setting up a tunnel with a blind corner is not only a good way to hide heavy asset switching, but it allows you to do a more impactful reveal of a new scene or vista as its a surprise. A great example of this is in Dark Souls 3 where you exit from the catacombs out to the snowy city.

As I stressed before, just because you can, doesn't mean you should always. Punctuation is important in writing understandable sentences, and the sames goes for the visual grammar of storytelling in a game.

I think the key thing that a lot of people missed about Cerny's presentation was that it was a repurposed GDC address. It was intended for industry professionals who are as concerned with process as much as (if not more than) result. As a gamer you might be irked by a slow transition, but trust me, its nothing compared with having to put up with them dozens of times over a working day as you are iterating and testing the thing!

 

[mcjmetroid]

At the end of the day Microsoft and Sony were using the same strategy but Microsoft was a lot more upfront about it. Jim Ryan literally said this " generations" comment just to sour people on Xbox Series' focus on backward compatibility.. and to sour people on Series S.

And you all fell for it. Lolling about Halo Infinite for months to about a year because it was being held back by the Xbox one.
Lolling at XBOX Series S holding back gaming for months.

Now:
It's now time for Xbox fans to laugh at you back. Just take it and don't embarrass yourselves
You've got got.

Anyway I hope we've all learnt our lessons about rushing out to buy the latest consoles in general.

 

[EDMIX]

There is nothing to wait and see about. These are PS4 - designed games. And there is no way around that.

The fact that you don't have any evidence of this by anyone official shows.....maybe there is indeed a way around that comment lol

I don't mind the speculation talk, but you can't really be starting post with "these are PS4" etc we don't know that. We have not been given any info on anything like that tbh. Unless someone from that studios states it, it will simply be speculation or your belief that it is a PS4 game running on PS5.

That isn't really a matter of fact though .

 

[SafeOrAlone]

The fact that you don't have any evidence of this by anyone official shows.....maybe there is indeed a way around that comment lol

I don't mind the speculation talk, but you can't really be starting post with "these are PS4" etc we don't know that. We have not been given any info on anything like that tbh. Unless someone from that studios states it, it will simply be speculation or your belief that it is a PS4 game running on PS5.

That isn't really a matter of fact though .

You need proof that God of War, GT, and Horizon are designed with PS4 in mind??

Sony said it themselves. That’s why we are all in this thread.

 

[Thirty7ven]

I still remember when the press launched a campaign deeming Sony as anti consumer for avoiding cross gen development.

 

[Banjo64]

I agree they are greedier than they were in previous transitions or more cost conscious depending on how you want to look at it (but closing small studios/JAPAN Studio restructuring, etc... already kind of gave it away that their strategy has been adjusted by the leadership shuffle a bit). In previous transitions the balance of first party software exclusive to the new generation was higher than the late generation games they would publish as the new console was coming out on the market or even after as we discussed earlier.

I do think that between 0 exclusives and a mix of next generation exclusives and late PS4 games with a PS5 "patch" developed for them there is still a gap and the latter is still a lot closer to the classic model PS console transitions enjoyed for decades though.


I was not expecting GT7 and perhaps GoW too, especially GT7, to be going out on PS4 too... I was not expecting titles to go out on PC... no on both fronts. I was not thinking at which title was going to come out possibly as a late generation PS4 release (like in previous generations) and I may have also been taken a bit by the launch period frenzy, in retrospect I think some titles being cross generation (which from a user point of view is like a PS4 title released after PS5 is out that can play in enhanced BC on PS5.... similar pros and cons... more cons than pros for me, but ).

At the time the discussion was also quite focused on the cross-generation forever, min specs do not matter, games are infinitely scalable... Vs. game exclusives and the classic generation model (and the role first party studios should play in it IMHO). I stand by what I said: the first party studio's job is to help prove the new platform and give clear and strong reasons for people to upgrade instead of people (think iOS device model) buying potential and living in a sliding cross-generation window.
I also think that first parties need to help ensure the transition does not leave previous generation consoles in the dirt with a draught of games oin the 6-8 months before the console launches and that you do not just give them token small scale titles to keep them quiet: GoW2 on PS2, GT6 on PS3, TLoU on PS3, etc... are all examples of titles which could have been held back and optimised as exclusives for the console that was ready to launch or had just launched on the market and that were not. They were the subject of plenty of discussions.

Again, I do think that between 0 exclusives and a mix of next generation exclusives and late PS4 games with a PS5 "patch" developed for them there is still a gap and the latter is still a lot closer to the classic model PS console transitions enjoyed for decades.

Thank you for the well thought out, detailed explanation P Panajev2001a

My personal view is that all of this talk will be forgotten when GoW and Horizon get 90+ Metacritic scores. I can’t wait to play them.

 

[Banjo64]

I still remember when the press launched a campaign deeming Sony as anti consumer for avoiding cross gen development.

I still remember when NeoGAF launched a campaign deeming Microsoft as anti consumer for supporting cross gen development.

 

[Thirty7ven]

I still remember when NeoGAF launched a campaign deeming Microsoft as anti consumer for supporting cross gen development.

Console warriors gonna war, shit's a sport that's all. But the press? Man, oof, they have really shown their colors since early last year. They get paid to stan for brands, and that's just fucking criminal. Low lifes.

Also whether you want it or not, not all games are cross gen. That remains a fact, and fact is that xbox fanboys cheering at this? Uh... the irony is so thick, takes quite the character to swallow it whole. But that's besides the point.

 

[bad guy]

Sony I am disappoint.

 

[Banjo64]

Console warriors gonna war, nothing to it. Shit's a sport, that's all. But the press? Man, oof, they have really shown their colors since early last year. They get paid to stan for brands, and that's just fucking criminal. Low lifes.

I agree with all of that, but sadly I haven’t trusted any of the press for years now; gaming, sport, news - it’s all got a slant depending on who’s the author and who’s lining who’s pockets.

Fucking hate it all.

I have to say the worst trend is ‘YouTubers’ and ‘Influencers’ because they don’t even have to worry about avoiding regulation (see all the Cyberpunk hype from people sitting on their brand new Cyberpunk gaming chairs with their gifted 3080s).

You are definitely right that any of the press (even ‘gaming) should be held to a higher standard than GAF, that was a false equivalency on my part.

 

[SlimySnake]

Fuck me... anyone who doesn't just agree that Sony are wonderful all of the time is an XBox fan? Grow the fuck up.

I've been on this forum for years and have always been a Playstation fan, but I'm big enough and old enough to be able to accept it when they do something bad.

FML, this console war shit is pathetic.

It's ridiculous. You have to love Sony a 100% and not criticize them at all to be considered a Sony fan. Otherwise you are a dirty old Xbox fan.

It's so juvenile makes me think these people are 10-12 year olds who literally just joined forums for the first time in their lives.

Gamefaq is more adult.

 

[TBiddy]

I still remember when NeoGAF launched a campaign deeming Microsoft as anti consumer for supporting cross gen development.

Or when the media complained about Microsoft not providing the "full next gen experience" by support cross gen for a few years.

 

[Thirty7ven]

You are definitely right that any of the press (even ‘gaming) should be held to a higher standard than GAF, that was a false equivalency on my part.

That's it, right there. I'm sending you a *hug*, and this is the real shit.

Or when the media complained about Microsoft not providing the "full next gen experience" by support cross gen for a few years.

The media lol, sure TBuddy. But you know, if the media complained about prolonged cross gen development or a complete lack of first party games, would that be wrong or would that be the cold hard truth? Because we are enthusiasts, and the media feeds mostly on enthusiasts, and therefore.... cross gen games or lack of games should be something that people complain about. Consoles have an history, and expectation that comes with each new generation, and if change happens then it must be for the better. It hasn't been for the better, so... why are we defending the practice?

No I don't want games coming out in 22´ being held back by 2013 hardware, specially when the CPU was already behind the curve in 13'

 

[SafeOrAlone]

It's ridiculous. You have to love Sony a 100% and not criticize them at all to be considered a Sony fan. Otherwise you are a dirty old Xbox fan.

It's so juvenile makes me think these people are 10-12 year olds who literally just joined forums for the first time in their lives.

Gamefaq is more adult.

It's ironic that the blind support for Sony will further tarnish them. You pushback on things you love when they screw up, you don't plug your ears and pretend everything is okay.

At the least, Sony needs to be called out for their weak - and, quite arguably, deceitful - communication to consumers regarding release dates and cross-gen.

- owner of every PS console (but Vita)

 

[TBiddy]

The media lol, sure TBuddy. But you know, if the media complained about prolonged cross gen development or a complete lack of first party games, would that be wrong or would that be the cold hard truth? Because we are enthusiasts, and the media feeds mostly on enthusiasts, and therefore.... cross gen games or lack of games should be something that people complain about. Consoles have an history, and expectation that comes with each new generation, and if change happens then it must be for the better. It hasn't been for the better, so... why are we defending the practice?

No I don't want games coming out in 22´ being held back by 2013 hardware, specially when the CPU was already behind the curve in 13'

I'm not defending anything. Just saying that the media wasn't overly satisfied with the news that Microsoft were going cross-gen.

At the least, Sony needs to be called out for their weak - and, quite arguably, deceitful - communication to consumers regarding release dates and cross-gen.

Agreed. I don't really care about games being cross gen or not, but Microsoft were at least up front about it.

 

[FatKingBallman]

So your saying that Cerny told the truth, yeah I believe that to, but by doing the biggest hitters such as god of war and gran turismo crow feb then they are gonna be hampered on ps5 by the design of the games. They will look great but they are gonna be held back by lest gen limitations

Yes, he did. God Of War anf Gran Turismo aren't the only games. Ratchet and Returnal delivered what Cerny said, and Xbox fans, cut the crap with spinning.

No am talking game design which Cerny talked about himself, watch the road to PS5 where he says certain design choices had to be made when making games for PS4 such as corridors in certain areas to help with loading and things but the PS5 wouldn’t have those limitations because of the fast SSD. Got watch it and you will see what I mean

Returnal and Ratchet doesn't have this problem.

Don't waste your time dude.

Yeah, it's better for him not waste his time being all the time wrong.

It's ridiculous. You have to love Sony a 100% and not criticize them at all to be considered a Sony fan. Otherwise you are a dirty old Xbox fan.

It's so juvenile makes me think these people are 10-12 year olds who literally just joined forums for the first time in their lives.

Gamefaq is more adult.

LOL. It is nice to see how you defend his WRONG opinion about how Sony never released cross-gen games before. As he claimed is a PS fan, then surely he should know about previous released cross-gen games.

Why just focus on that though? They did the same things with NHL and NBA too, are you going to tell me now that "okay, but sports games doesn't really lend" or? Come on man.

You asked, you got an answer. You literally stated "not for first party". We are merely showing you that is factually false. I don't even know how you can say they didn't have a strategy to do something ,that you clearly can see them doing. So if I say the MMO stuff you going to then say "okay, but that MMO game, those sports games, doesn't really" lol

Resogun, Soundshapes, Modnation Races, Super Star Dusk, all that will be ignored too to goal post or? Your original comment says nothing about the degree of cross gen releases, it simply states "Not for first party" and also "What first party games were cross gen". I see zero reason to ignore all of this just because this time its Spiderman and Horizon or something.

Fact of the matter is, they have released cross gen titles in the past on EVERY PS system following PS1. The tech has advanced to allow for scaling for them to do bigger AAA titles as even MS is doing this, which means the tech has a lot to do with it as they are not as limited as they were generations prior.



Doesn't matter. Its still a cross generational title.



Yes it is bud, it is as your official statement was as follows.



Yes with first party...here is a list of first party titles tha did it. Coming from 1 IP is irrelevant, you question states not with first party, not "not with 43 IP" or something lol

Just for lolz sake, we can name off other IP that are cross gen besides MLB, ie NBA when they had that license, NHL, Little Big Planet, Modnation Racers, oh yea the ATV series had both PSP and PS2 titles, Motorstorm also released on Both PSP and PS2. So just stop, I gave you 1 IP simply because your question can be answered by 1. Its not a degree of, you just state "not for first party" and ask what titles. It doesn't need to be some magic number as your post doesn't really state you are speaking about a degree of, or significate number or an exact amount etc.



As in...you are stating NOT with first party and asking what titles. You are not asking a degree of, you are not questioning HOW MUCH did Sony do or anything like that, you are simply stating Not With First Party and asking with what.

Asked and answered. The rest of your post are goal post to keep moving this shit further and further the more you are proven wrong on this. I don't mind the debate, but shit man stick with a point instead of this goal post shit lol I understand we all forgot or don't remember all generations 100% from day 1 or something and I even took deep consideration in that, but no reason to then put on this whole thing trying to fight all comments that keep showing your comment was wrong. It factually is a wrong comment...



Theres not. Sorry man. Prove it. Looking back at PS2, PSP, PS3, PS4 etc the more I look at those early titles, the more this just looks like a classic PS generation in terms of some cross gen stuff. What are you going to tell me next? MLB being on Both PS4 and PS5 is a massive U-turn or? lol....are you sure about that? I just don't see enough real massive difference here to say some massive U-turn is happening. His interview is just him saying they want next gen titles in terms of those features, but shit thats pretty much the same shit that went on with PS3 ie motion controls lol So I don't see shit here man. You need to prove th difference and show us some radical thing is going on that has never gone on before, cause cross gen games by Sony isn't it.

Only This Is Football wasn't cross-gen from their sport franchises i think

 

[DarkMage619]

I frankly do not see anything wrong in the believing in generations quote. Did you ever see a confirmed platforms list for Ragnarok? No. Just as you didn't get confirmed release dates.

I only think the GT7 being PS5 exclusive was "a lie" or changed. FS2020, Avowed, and Everwild releasing on xbox one was also "a lie" or changed. The material released by Sony and MS were not accurate and were misleading in those cases.

I only mentioned that this ambiguity of not confirming something was to their own benefit in publishing no release dates and publishing no confirmed platforms list.

Why did you leave out the clearly stated MS position of supporting the X1 for a year or two? If a game is coming outside of that period of time would you still stick with MS 'lied' thing? I'm sure Sony appreciates your understanding as they now change their position but this is nothing like what MS said and did. It's interesting to see people bend over backwards to make this a 'both of them did this thing'. It's clear both companies had different visions with cross generational support until Sony moved more in MS's direction.

 

[SlimySnake]

It's ironic that the blind support for Sony will further tarnish them. You pushback on things you love when they screw up, you don't plug your ears and pretend everything is okay.

At the least, Sony needs to be called out for their weak - and, quite arguably, deceitful - communication to consumers regarding release dates and cross-gen.

- owner of every PS console (but Vita)

Oh man, Id recommend you buy a vita because it's my favorite PS console/handheld ever. It is the sleekest piece of hardware I've ever owned. An absolute beauty. The Wii U and even the Switch felt dated in comparison and tbh, I think it's even better than some of the more recent iPhones. That OLED screen and the design is something else.

I never really played it after the first few months but those first few months were gaming bliss. Uncharted looked amazing and felt like a real game. Unit 13 by the Socom devs is the perfect bite sized game. Killzone vita looked stunning and was another great handheld game. I cant believe Sony didnt support this brilliant piece of hardware any further. The OS is really impressive too especially considering it came out in 2011. TBH, this is when I started to go sour on Sony. They had all these great smaller studios like GG Cambridge, Bigbig Studios and Zipper and they were all shutdown. They wouldve been perfect for vita or even the PS4. Bend went on to make the underappreciated Days Gone. GG Cambridge and Zipper wouldve made some great shooters for the PS4.

And yes, I really dont understand why Sony cannot even be criticized for a week for their lies. No ones feelings are getting hurt by us talking about it on forums lol. I am not sending Jimbo any death threats. The Alanah Pearce stuff was unacceptable but attractive women like her get death and rape threats for just about everything so this is just another excuse for psycopaths to go off on her. We are harsh on Sony and Microsoft because we care. I dont even bother talking about Ubisoft and Nintendo. I really couldnt care less about their output.

 

[djkimothy]

They never said GoW was a PS5 exclusive.

They did with GT7, but it sounds like it was only recently decided to be getting a PS4 version.

This. This is the nuance that people are missing. I think a lot of the decision making comes from the studios themselves and not the publisher. Sony largely takes a hands off approach to studio independence and it has worked well for them. Even Barlog is saying he’ll take the heat for that decision in the end. It could be a memorandum was sent down to the studios of possible hardware contraints in the next year, that allowed them to adapt their release strategy.

And it’s been said before Jaffe talked about GOW coming as a cross gen title. As a studio you can’t just ignore 110 million users (give or take)

I don’t know what Polyphony’s decision process is in all of this. But they probably think this will allow more people to get in on it. I think the difference in the end is the load times and ray tracing capabilities that will differentiate the titles. And dual sense support. These are the next gen features studios are touting.

 

[ZywyPL]

F FatKingBallman Let it go man, we all get it, you're ready to take a bullet for Jim Ryan, you have our respect, but there's no reason to be angry because other people have different view on the topic. Sony lied straight in people's face and got caught (actually they exposed themselves which makes the whole situation even more funny), there's no reason to defend them, unless you're getting a big fat check for doing so.

 

[SafeOrAlone]

Oh man, Id recommend you buy a vita because it's my favorite PS console/handheld ever. It is the sleekest piece of hardware I've ever owned. An absolute beauty. The Wii U and even the Switch felt dated in comparison and tbh, I think it's even better than some of the more recent iPhones. That OLED screen and the design is something else.

I believe you, so maybe I'll do that. My friend took his old PSP out of the box recently and it was such a beauty, which I had forgotten about. Not that I loved the console itself, but was so damn sleek. If Vita is even better, I may want to own one just to look at every once in a while.

 

[SafeOrAlone]

I understand. But what needs to be factored in is that like any constraint, if you design intelligently you can work around it and even use it to your advantage.

For example, setting up a tunnel with a blind corner is not only a good way to hide heavy asset switching, but it allows you to do a more impactful reveal of a new scene or vista as its a surprise. A great example of this is in Dark Souls 3 where you exit from the catacombs out to the snowy city.

As I stressed before, just because you can, doesn't mean you should always. Punctuation is important in writing understandable sentences, and the sames goes for the visual grammar of storytelling in a game.

I think the key thing that a lot of people missed about Cerny's presentation was that it was a repurposed GDC address. It was intended for industry professionals who are as concerned with process as much as (if not more than) result. As a gamer you might be irked by a slow transition, but trust me, its nothing compared with having to put up with them dozens of times over a working day as you are iterating and testing the thing!

This is not what you want in a PS5 game. These "tunnel walks" would logically be the place where they slow your walking down to a crawl or have you squeeze through five crevices in a row as the game loads. Sure, you can be creative with limitations - and limitation even breeds creativity- but that doesn't mean you want to limit yourself to eight year old hardware when designing a flagship game for next-gen consoles.

As you say "just because you can, doesn't mean you should."

 

[FunkMiller]

And yes, I really dont understand why Sony cannot even be criticized for a week for their lies. No ones feelings are getting hurt by us talking about it on forums lol. I am not sending Jimbo any death threats.

The worst thing about it all is that the self same defenders of Sony now, would have been the ones last year hauling Microsoft over the coals for the exact same thing. And reversely, I’m seeing XBox stans now having the fucking cheek to complain about Sony going cross gen!

Theres always been a rivalry between the two dominant video games companies over the years, but I don’t remember it ever being quite as dumb and hypocritical as it is these days.

 

[Represent.]

Good, finally a media group with some balls. Now wheres the rest of them?

Wheres IGN, Gamespot, Polygon etc?

Sony needs to be called out on this shit. Ridiculous outright lying

 

[dcmk7]

Why did you leave out the clearly stated MS position of supporting the X1 for a year or two? If a game is coming outside of that period of time would you still stick with MS 'lied' thing? I'm sure Sony appreciates your understanding as they now change their position but this is nothing like what MS said and did. It's interesting to see people bend over backwards to make this a 'both of them did this thing'. It's clear both companies had different visions with cross generational support until Sony moved more in MS's direction.

As usual you completely miss the point.

For all of those MS games they had been listed initially to be released on Xbox One.

Them being removed IS the misleading part.

What is so difficult to grasp? You can't accept any hint of MS criticism can you? Just calm down.

 

[AGRacing]

Since Sony is taking the opportunity to cash in on the PS4 user base and lowering the bar - perhaps PS5 users shouldn't have to pay the 10 USD premium for the cross-gen title?

Just for clarification at this point - are their any announced upcoming Sony exclusives that are NOT cross-gen (excluding Ratchet this week)? Is Ratchet the only title doing something truly special with the SSD for potentially 2 years?

If I were Sony I'd message this way : We are building these titles for PS5 - and in every case they are then being handed to a porting studio for PS4 where the necessary changes and sacrifices will be made to make them run on the platform. There may be changes to environments, structure, etc. No cross-play. Wouldn't everyone be ok with that?

 

[SafeOrAlone]

The worst thing about it all is that the self same defenders of Sony now, would have been the ones last year hauling Microsoft over the coals for the exact same thing. And reversely, I’m seeing XBox stans now having the fucking cheek to complain about Sony going cross gen!

Theres always been a rivalry between the two dominant video games companies over the years, but I don’t remember it ever being quite as dumb and hypocritical as it is these days.

I'm actually surprised the consoles haven't been turned into political mascots yet for either party. I guess I'll take the console warring we have over that, unfortunate as it is. Seems like a lot of entertainment these days almost falls into a Republican or Democrat genre, whether it's overly political or not.

 

[FunkMiller]

Here we go...

 

[SlimySnake]

The worst thing about it all is that the self same defenders of Sony now, would have been the ones last year hauling Microsoft over the coals for the exact same thing. And reversely, I’m seeing XBox stans now having the fucking cheek to complain about Sony going cross gen!

Theres always been a rivalry between the two dominant video games companies over the years, but I don’t remember it ever being quite as dumb and hypocritical as it is these days.

Yeah, I think console warring hasnt been this bad since the SDF days here on gaf, but even then Sony fans used to openly mock others for their I am a Japanese expert posts, and SDF itself was a self mocking meme. Everyone is just so entrenched in their opinions there is no wiggle room. You are either with us or against us.

It's something you only see in video games btw. In sports, fans are very critical of their teams. Listen to any sports radio show, people will call in ANGRY and demand either the coach be fired or an underperforming player traded. Here we defend Phil Spencer for saying there will be no next gen first party games for 2-3 years. We defend Jim Ryan for misleading consumers. He was literally asked by Rueters if GoW was a next gen only title during a PS5 launch interview and he said, "I have nothing to say about it at the moment." Yeah, sure thats not misleading at all on the eve of launch.

 

[Krappadizzle]

DF, bought by m$, and they criticizing Sony, what's new? water is wet?

Water is not wet.

 

[alabtrosMyster]

You guys are too invested in marketing buzz/words, they just simply want to sell you a product. It's never been a "sacred bond" from the publisher to consumers. This is a pretty common practice, especially when the sh*t involve lots of $$$.

"This is a genre defining game"
"Generational leap in graphics"
"Next-gen gameplay"
"True to life, the most photo realistic game you have ever seen"
Bla bla bla....

Take a sip of tea (or beer or whatever), sit down and relax and try to read some jargons like the above in many articles you could find
*try to read them with your heaviest tone of voice. You might find it funny, trust me.

In the end, the latest hardware will get "the better" version at the very least. So relaaaax, it is not that bad. Exclusive games will follow sooner or later.

Marketing jargon is annoying, it actually let people talk without having conversations :-/

 

[Dr.Morris79]

Here we go...

Go? It's gone my good man. 14 pages of this dross.