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Dota 2 Beta Thread 3: Gunnar Optiks Required [Faster Loading]

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I guess that's to prevent noobs from overfeeding the other team. However, shutting down a specific hero on the enemy team repeatedly because you're trying to stunt their growth should be a viable strategy that gets rewarded since going for a gank is always risky.
This is part of why roaming was nonexistent in League for a long time. It just wasn't worth it when you could sit in lane and farm (and why it's dedicated to the jungler).
I think you can also buy shit from anywhere on the map and it appears in your inventory. LoL is truly easy mode.
No you can't, but everyone gets a free 0 cooldown TP back to base that's interrupted on damage.
 
I think you guys are missing the point. The general idea behind no denying and skill shots is that you won't feel too outclassed by your opponent. Instead of thinking "his aim is so good", you think "my dodging is not good enough", instead of thinking "his last hitting is too good", you think "I'm not farming fast enough to keep up".

Yeah, and I think you can see that in how we reacted to that story of the nightmare/arrow gank. In LoL, even if you can put yourself in situations where you can't escape, there's usually always something you can or should do in an engagement if it's going poorly. If you stuck around too long and died, you'll know you could have done something differently to get out. In Dota, when you make a mistake, you die very, very quickly most of the time, and that can be frustrating, because it seems like there's nothing you could have done to avoid it.
 
Denying is a design decision that I can respect League for making. Like, I understand why its important in Dota, but I don't think that that specifically is a reason why League isn't "as good a game".
 
Denying is a design decision that I can respect League for making. Like, I understand why its important in Dota, but I don't think that that specifically is a reason why League isn't "as good a game".

Fair enough.

I personally prefer having deny because it gives you more to do with creeps than last hit them. You don't have to hit the enemy hero to harass him, denying his creeps will stunt his growth as much as forcing him to go back to fountain to heal. Also, the deny counter and the little pop up and your hero yelling out "Denied!" if the enemy's attack just misses the creep you denied is satisfying.
 
Fair enough.

I personally prefer having deny because it gives you more options. You don't have to hit the enemy hero to harass him, denying his creeps will stunt his growth as much as forcing him to go back to fountain to heal.

Oh yeah, I like denying. But on my list of problems with League, lack of denying isn't one of them.
 
I think you guys are missing the point. The general idea behind no denying and skill shots is that you won't feel too outclassed by your opponent. Instead of thinking "his aim is so good", you think "my dodging is not good enough", instead of thinking "his last hitting is too good", you think "I'm not farming fast enough to keep up".

I was under the impression the idea behind removing denying was that it was unintuitive to new players. I vaguely remember reading a post about how it placed an undue burden of knowledge on the new player to know that these little people on their team can be killed by you for tangential rewards like preventing your opponent from gaining as much gold and for freezing your lane in place.

The rest of these... arguments I felt arose later when they got a lot of questions about it. I could be remembering it incorrectly, mind you, because I haven't followed their philosophies for over a year.

(Also, I find it a little insulting that a designer feels they need to remove game elements because they'll make me feel sad. It's something that irked me a lot with the designers posts. They viewed their audience as being sensitive children. Which, while probably is accurate, leads to rather restrictive game design.)

Riot has long struck me as being one of those "DESIGN IS LAW" studios, where immutable designer rules are more valuable than being flexible with regard to the unexpected and novel. Played the game for over a year and there's so much about it I've long since forgotten, nigh everything falls so close to the median line that there's precious little of Dota's peculiarity and outliers that gripped me.

This is something I felt too during my time with League. I felt like the designers had these pet peeves with Dota that they considered were bad but never really stopped to consider why they were implemented. So they designed a game removing everything they didn't like and ended up creating a ton of new problems they never anticipated.

But since they didn't understand the original design reasons for the things they banned, they had no idea why the issues were arising in their game.

For example - the passivity of the laning phase. I remember when I watched competitive matches the average kill total for the first ten to fifteen minutes was maybe around 5 or so. When they examined why this was happening, one of the big culprits was the prevalence of the Flash summoner skill. However, so many of their champions were designed with the utility of Flash in mind and the structure of their map required Flash to be in place they couldn't just remove it.

And for a year they said they were looking in to it and, to my knowledge, Flash is still a must have spell on every champion and the laning phase is still incredibly boring. I wonder if they ever got around to that stealth rework...

Oh yeah, I like denying. But on my list of problems with League, lack of denying isn't one of them.

My problem with removing denying was there was nothing added to compensate. In fact, they removed even more elements for controlling your lane like pulling jungle camps. This added to the incredibly boring laning phase of their game and, on a player level, the incredibly boring job of supporting. They saw something they didn't agree with it and said "let's get rid of it!" but never stopped to consider the consequences this would have on the overall game.

When you get down to brass tacks, denying is a really minor element of the game that adds quite a lot to the actual flow.
 
Man, I'm so glad to finally have gotten good with Windrunner, good shackles are so satisfying, and killing people who think they are untouchable with power shots is my new hobby.
 
I really love denying. I treat it like a mini-game and warm up during the first 10 minutes. Never understood why it's so disliked by some. They should see it as part of the game during those boring early minutes.
 
A friend of mine works for Riot games, who previously worked for Valve, and I've heard a lot of interesting tidbits of information about the design philosophy of Dota vs. Lol. A lot of it based on psychology and research (his job is the research). For example denying will never be a part of Lol because they don't want gameplay elements that are based on drawing negative emotions from your opponents rather than positive emotions for yourself (paraphrasing since I can't recall exactly what he said). They're very different games, from a philosophical standpoint.
I'm more surprised that your friend actually quit working for Valve. Must have been a pretty good opportunity at Riot. Gaben said that very few people have actually quit the company :lol
 
I was under the impression the idea behind removing denying was that it was unintuitive to new players. I vaguely remember reading a post about how it placed an undue burden of knowledge on the new player to know that these little people on their team can be killed by you for tangential rewards like preventing your opponent from gaining as much gold and for freezing your lane in place.
That as well. But my counterargument is that most of the player base by now has learned how to keep the lane unpushed until it needs to be pushed. Denying just gives them a slightly more active role in keeping lane neutrality. Riot's arguments really do come off as patronizing, sometimes, and it's that, more than their actual decisions, that irk me. Unlike in economics, trickle down strategy/tactics actually works in online games, so it's not some huge problem to retain a few unintuitive mechanics.
 
That as well. But my counterargument is that most of the player base by now has learned that how to keep the lane unpushed until you need to push it, denying just gives them a slightly more active role in keeping lane neutrality. Riot's arguments really do come off as patronizing, sometimes, and it's that, more than their actual decisions, that irk me. Unlike in economics, trickle down skills actually works in DOTA/LoL, so it's not some huge problem to retain unintuitive mechanics.

Last hitting and lane control is an inherently unintuitive mechanic. Someone fresh to the genre is not going to grasp that you want to wait until the last possible moment to hit a creep for gold. They'll merrily auto attack and think everything is A-OK.
 
Last hitting and lane control is an inherently unintuitive mechanic. Someone fresh to the genre is not going to grasp that you want to wait until the last possible moment to hit a creep for gold. They'll merrily auto attack and think everything is A-OK.
Good thing Blizzard is innovating by removing last hitting from their DOTA clone entirely.

All hail Blizzardgods.
 
I have no clue honestly, I'm waiting for someone to make a thread about new news so I can laugh at it from my shining ivory fortified tower.
 
I really REALLY hate that word, burden of knowledge. Feels like Riot is that dude who tries to pry the controller out of your hands because you're doing it wrong.

"it's for your own good" he'll say. "you're not having fun."
 
Yeah, and I think you can see that in how we reacted to that story of the nightmare/arrow gank. In LoL, even if you can put yourself in situations where you can't escape, there's usually always something you can or should do in an engagement if it's going poorly. If you stuck around too long and died, you'll know you could have done something differently to get out. In Dota, when you make a mistake, you die very, very quickly most of the time, and that can be frustrating, because it seems like there's nothing you could have done to avoid it.

I feel the other way around, In LoL once you're in a bad situation(unless your flash is up/you are LeBlanc Shaco etc) you are dead. In Dota, you have everything, Tree Jukes, TP scroll, Force staff, Shadow blade, block them with wards etc.

I lost interest in LoL after seeing how simplistic the hero/ability interaction is. It all revolves around dealing damage, heals, shields and CC. Hell, even Bane's nightmare has more interaction possibility than any LoL ability available. DotA's charm(for me) came from little and big things you can do with each ability and all the lulz and the wtf that will folow. In LoL, it's all, "you click this and they blow up".

And yeah, hate the "we don't want to hurt our player's feeling" too lol
 
I feel the other way around, In LoL once you're in a bad situation(unless your flash is up/you are LeBlanc Shaco etc) you are dead. In Dota, you have everything, Tree Jukes, TP scroll, Force staff, Shadow blade, block them with wards etc.

I lost interest in LoL after seeing how simplistic the hero/ability interaction is. It all revolves around dealing damage, heals, shields and CC. Hell, even Bane's nightmare has more interaction possibility than any LoL ability available. DotA's charm(for me) came from little and big things you can do with each ability and all the lulz and the wtf that will folow. In LoL, it's all, "you click this and they blow up".

I do find Riot's game fascinating in that it's like an experiment for game mechanics that you'd never see attempted otherwise. I really enjoy trying to find the root issues for the problems facing their game. Like, last I heard, League has a lot less comebacks and early advantages give you far greater dominance in the game than in Dota.

Which is something wholly unintended as Riot put in the whole respawning inhibitor element (among other things) to try and give a chance for teams that were behind the ability to come back. But that turned out to not have that great of impact on the game whereas something like removing gold lost on death had a far greater role in preventing comebacks.
 
Link link link

All-Stars retains the RPG mechanics from the original DotA, including leveling up, shopping for new items and choosing new abilities at each level. But all the hero stats from Warcraft III's version have been stripped down to just damage, health and mastery. Similarly, the number of items have been reduced and simplified into categories like Permanent Stat Boosts, Consumables, Items (with multiple upgradable-tiers) and Artifacts. The inventory size has been cut down to four (from the usual six) to account for the new itemization.

Blizzard's main reason behind this drastic change is the fast-paced nature of the MOBA games being at odds with the extensive pre-planning required for ideal character builds under the existing model. Their plan is to have more intuitive abilities and itemization that's easier to pick up for newer players, while still being hard to master.

The game will feature four hero roles:

Tank - These damage soakers are built to initiate team fights. The tanks revealed so far are Arthas, Muradin and Stitches (a Warcraft III Abomination).
Support - These are designed to help their team-mates with heals and crowd control. Heroes available in this role are: Thrall, Uther and Tassadar.
DPS - These are the team's primary damage dealers and assassins. So far, the DPS role will be fulfilled by Kerrigan (as Queen of Blades), Nova and Zeratul.
Siege - A new hero role, designed to outrange towers and deal terrible, terrible damage. The heroes included in this role are: Za'gara, Witch Doctor (Diablo) and General Warfield (in his siege tank).


http://shokzguide.com/blizzard-dota/blizzard-all-stars-features/
 
I was under the impression the idea behind removing denying was that it was unintuitive to new players. I vaguely remember reading a post about how it placed an undue burden of knowledge on the new player to know that these little people on their team can be killed by you for tangential rewards like preventing your opponent from gaining as much gold and for freezing your lane in place.

I never understood the whole "killing your own guys makes no sense!" argument.
Scorched earth worked out great for Stalin.
 
Blizzard's main reason behind this drastic change is the fast-paced nature of the MOBA games being at odds with the extensive pre-planning required for ideal character builds under the existing model. Their plan is to have more intuitive abilities and itemization that's easier to pick up for newer players, while still being hard to master.

I don't know why so many developers seem to view difficulty as something to be avoided or even as bad design.

I never understood the whole "killing your own guys makes no sense!" argument.
Scorched earth worked out great for Stalin.

Yeah, I never really got it either. Granted, having to press 'a' then click your unit is a little unintuitive when you only have to right click the enemy unit to attack it.

But I've never really had much trouble with burden of knowledge in general. I don't see players needing to learn how to play a game as a bad thing.
 
LoL may generally be simpler, but having watched and played a bunch of both games, the many little differences between makes LoL less just DotA-lite and just a much different game altogether.

For example:

Deaths may mean less in terms of gold since you lose none, the lack of buybacks mean that deaths can "stick" more and deaths can end games late game.
 
Never really understood why people had a problem with denying. It might be unintuitive but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

I like that it gives you some control over your own creeps and gives you a way to deny gold and pull your lane towards your own tower.
 
Just had the most frustrating game, nearly lost it when we had the 2 of their tier 2s down by 20 minutes and lead 10 kills to our 25+. But literally the entire time our Zeus refused to team fight, refused to use his ulti when asked when our team had over 30 kills he had contributed 2 assists and 2 deaths.

Ask for Ulti, no response. Ask again "is that an order? I'm not good at taking orders from kids". They weren't even rude in asking it was just "ulti now zeus!"

Took us nearly an hour to win and in the end (like 50 minutes+) he got his shit together and even apologized for the attitude but that was the most shit experience.
 
Just had the most frustrating game, nearly lost it when we had the 2 of their tier 2s down by 20 minutes and lead 10 kills to our 25+. But literally the entire time our Zeus refused to team fight, refused to use his ulti when asked when our team had over 30 kills he had contributed 2 assists and 2 deaths.

Ask for Ulti, no response. Ask again "is that an order? I'm not good at taking orders from kids". They weren't even rude in asking it was just "ulti now zeus!"

Took us nearly an hour to win and in the end (like 50 minutes+) he got his shit together and even apologized for the attitude but that was the most shit experience.

sounds like dota alright
 
Nope still bored with laning in dota compared to lol and hating the clumsy movement with a passion. Also hate the 0 gold you get supporting and that the itemization adds almost zero scaling to ability based heroes.
 
Nope still bored with laning in dota compared to lol and hating the clumsy movement with a passion. Also hate the 0 gold you get supporting and that the itemization adds almost zero scaling to ability based heroes.

Well that's the life of a support t.b.h. and about the itemization, that's utter bullshit if you ask me, because the items definitely add something to each of the characters and either compliment or enhance the characters abilities.
Seems like you are drawing conclusions not based on the actual facts but rather on your limited experience with Dota 2 (not that I'm an expert but you get the point).

All of the people that have reacted on your posts have tried to explain all of this stuff and it's reasoning behind it, but it seems like this game is just not for you :-)
Well, to each his own I guess...
 
Nope still bored with laning in dota compared to lol and hating the clumsy movement with a passion. Also hate the 0 gold you get supporting and that the itemization adds almost zero scaling to ability based heroes.

Your complaints wreak of "It's not LOL, so I don't like it." The lack of scaling for support heroes is part of what makes them support heroes. It's a core function of the game.
 
Spaceman teemo>>>>>>>>dota2

VKdY7.gif
 
Nope still bored with laning in dota compared to lol and hating the clumsy movement with a passion. Also hate the 0 gold you get supporting and that the itemization adds almost zero scaling to ability based heroes.

What is it you prefer in Dota over LoL? If the answer is nothing then I don't see why you'd keep playing, a lot of the key points that differentiate Dota from LoL you seem to dislike.

No harm in preferring LoL over Dota.
 
Nope still bored with laning in dota compared to lol and hating the clumsy movement with a passion. Also hate the 0 gold you get supporting and that the itemization adds almost zero scaling to ability based heroes.

Well, you're always free to go back to the game where you think

Flash is an interesting, fun, play-making summoner.

Wait what, 265 second cooldown? Jesus Christ that's worse than Enigma's black hole. Very spammable and interesting spell. Yes, a spell on a four minute cooldown that moves you a whopping... 400 range. That's pretty impressive.

Honestly, you could actually put some effort into learning the game and understanding why certain things are the way they are... or you can continue ignoring every valuable post that has attempted to assist you and just keep whining about extreme exaggerations of this game you hate. Whatever floats your boat. The most comical thing you've said though is the boring laning. Jee whiz it sure is fun getting only 10 total kills from both teams in 30+ minutes, League sure is awesome in that regard. I'll just keep sticking with the game that often goes to 40 kills in 30 minutes and commonly goes up to 70+, with many of these kills happening in the first 15 minutes.

If you like League, that's fine... But acting like you're in the position to talk like you even have a basic grasp of Dota is silly goose status.
 
Well that sounds like something.

This made me chuckle at 6am. Thanks for that.

Last hitting and lane control is an inherently unintuitive mechanic. Someone fresh to the genre is not going to grasp that you want to wait until the last possible moment to hit a creep for gold. They'll merrily auto attack and think everything is A-OK.

I don't think this is true. I'm very new to the genre, I've only played 5 or so bot matches and it didn't take long to understand the last hit concept. Although I have been trolling the moba genre for a while and have been doing a lot of homework prior to playing.
 
From another thread. My opinion on spectating dota and the pro dota scene in general:
Can't agree on the "fun to watch" part but apparently that's just me as it is consistently number 1 most watched on twitch and multi game tournaments.

I just don't feel theres that much room for creativity when it comes to playing the actual characters. Pudge is always going to stand to the side, hook, rot, and ult. Antimage will always blink everywhere and do a ton of dps after farming all game. Creativity can happen with character builds/items but then for that I don't need to watch a 50 min game.

I think that maybe the excitement comes not from the pros playing the characters a certain way but from how coordinated a dedicated dota team can be. That's not to say DOTA has no technical skill involved. It's there it's just that for me, the technical skill required for dota is not as impressive as, say, SC2 or Street Fighter. DOTA is hard because of all the stuff you have to learn: all the items, heroes, spells. And you have to learn ALL OF IT to become a semi-decent player.

I'm not really impressed by pro dota. It's rare but when I am it is because of the coordination and the teamwork involved and not by how the individual characters were played. If I want to be impressed by sheer technical skill I'll go watch SC2. What pro DOTA is left with is amazing team play and that's it. Which is not enough for me to actually care about.

TL;DR: "Here. Watch this game of a pudge player getting 20 kills doing the relatively common pudge thing for 50 mins." No thanks. It's great that you like that but I'm just gonna go ahead and queue up a game.

Anyone else feel this way about any competitive game? If you don't (most likely) by all means link me some vids, call me an idiot and tell me I'm wrong. Interested to see if there are any vids of actually impressive character play that isnt just your typical "oh yeah he right clicked that dude pretty good" or "yes he indeed did ravage the other team... I'm not sure why the casters are screaming though"
 
Nope still bored with laning in dota compared to lol and hating the clumsy movement with a passion. Also hate the 0 gold you get supporting and that the itemization adds almost zero scaling to ability based heroes.

Sounds like you made up your mind before giving the game a proper chance.
 
Your complaints wreak of "It's not LOL, so I don't like it." The lack of scaling for support heroes is part of what makes them support heroes. It's a core function of the game.

I knew there'd be someone who made this facile strawman. You can have enough gold on support champions to get a few items and still have them be support champions. Like one of the things that made me want to pick up Dota 2 is on paper the more interesting items. Oh bad luck gold is for carries you're playing support you get shit. I'm watching dreamhack and all the support champions get nothing, like arcane boots and a vitality booster in a 50 minute game, wow that guy must be enjoying dota's deep itemization choices.
 
I knew there'd be someone who made this facile strawman. You can have enough gold on support champions to get a few items and still have them be support champions. Like one of the things that made me want to pick up Dota 2 is on paper the more interesting items. Oh bad luck gold is for carries you're playing support you get shit. I'm watching dreamhack and all the support champions get nothing, like arcane boots and a vitality booster in a 50 minute game, wow that guy must be enjoying dota's deep itemization choices.

As someone who either plays hard support or hard carry I think its a bit silly you put so much emphasis on itemization. Support is plenty fun items or no (barring a certain bdiz threshold), and an additional mek or euls or w/e doesn't really change the play style all that much. It's another tool, sure, but it doesn't make or break the experience for me.
 
What is it you prefer in Dota over LoL? If the answer is nothing then I don't see why you'd keep playing, a lot of the key points that differentiate Dota from LoL you seem to dislike.

No harm in preferring LoL over Dota.

I was looking for a more flexible meta with different lane assignments, more emphasis on roaming, more activateables and more comebacks. That's Dota 2. But the actual gameplay mechanics I'm not enjoying.
 
From another thread. My opinion on spectating dota and the pro dota scene in general:


Anyone else feel this way about any competitive game? If you don't (most likely) by all means link me some vids, call me an idiot and tell me I'm wrong. Interested to see if there are any vids of actually impressive character play that isnt just your typical "oh yeah he right clicked that dude pretty good" or "yes he indeed did ravage the other team... I'm not sure why the casters are screaming though"

Don't have a link but just recently it was awesome watching Dendi play Wisp (Out of Tangoes v Na'Vi) and rack up some kills. I'd never seen anyone use blink dagger on Wisp while tethered to stun like that, was cool to watch him be played so aggressively. Also never seen Wisp solo mid before (even got a kill up on QoP!) which was pretty interesting, admittedly I don't watch too much competitive Dota
 
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