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[Fimbulvetr]

There were a lot of times in the first game where I'd look at a dialog option and wonder.. "is this joking? is this confrontative? maybe it's dismissive?" and have no clue what the actual statement would be.

In many ways Mass Effect was better at indicating, since by giving a shortened idea it often conveyed the tone better.

It was easy to tell the tone of stuff in ME because paragon responses and renegade responses were always in the same place, even when they weren't labeled with colors.

 

[water_wendi]

It was easy to tell the tone of stuff in ME because paragon responses and renegade responses were always in the same place, even when they weren't labeled with colors.

i never had a problem with dialogue tree responses. Out of every game ive ever played that had them (not counting poor translation stuff like Metal Heart or something :lol) i have never picked a dialogue tree option that had what i was going to say written out and gone "OMG thats not what i wanted to say!" Have there been times when NPCs take what i say the wrong way? Sure, but thats conversation. In the few hours of ME i played there were a couple instances where i picked something and it wasnt really what i was thinking that my character would say.

 

[Prine]

It does look far more stylized then DA. Universe doesnt look as forgettable now.

Major gripe for me re DA:O was that there was zero charisma with the world you were playing in. Enemies were just bodies in the way, looks like Bioware have addressed that. That dude with curly horns looks awesome.

Looking forward to it, day one.

 

[hamchan]

What the fuck is wrong with Bioware? First they ruin ME2 and now DA2? WHY?!?!

If DA2 gets ruined as good as ME2 was then I say bring it, should be GOTY material right there then.

Unfortunately it doesn't look as polished as ME2 at all. It looks significantly worse than the first game, mainly in the basic mechanics.

 

[webrunner]

It was easy to tell the tone of stuff in ME because paragon responses and renegade responses were always in the same place, even when they weren't labeled with colors.

True, but there are times where paragon might be either nice or indignant and it's hard to tell which one.


Generally though it's the details of what you say that ME loses, but DA loses the tone a lot.

 

[Lothars]

What the fuck is wrong with Bioware? First they ruin ME2 and now DA2? WHY?!?!

Why do you say they ruined ME2? I thought it was fantastic

I have hope that DA2 will be great as well but I feel that we don't have enough information.

 

[Sir Garbageman]

Any argument they make that it isn't an action RPG is ridiculous. Now I'm just hoping it's more KOTOR than Jade Empire.

 

[dude]

What the fuck is wrong with Bioware?

I've been saying that since 2003.

 

[RPG_Fanatic]

Why did I read this thread. I should have learned by now that every time I hear something about Dragon Age II, it just gets worse. Everything I loved about DA:O is being removed piece by piece.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

Why do you say they ruined ME2? I thought it was fantastic

I have hope that DA2 will be great as well but I feel that we don't have enough information.

ME2 is a good game, but they butchered all the RPG systems to streamline it. To a RPG fan, that would be ruining it.

 

[Sotha Sil]

Why did I read this thread. I should have learned by now that every time I hear something about Dragon Age II, it just gets worse. Everything I loved about DA:O is being removed piece by piece.

Why do you hate awesome?

 

[Sotha Sil]

Still not understanding the Mass Effect 2 hate. The lack of RPG elements was really that big of a deal to everyone?

I'll give you the short answer: yes.

 

[Varna]

Still not understanding the Mass Effect 2 hate. The lack of RPG elements was really that big of a deal to everyone?

I thought the combat was just perfect outside of balance issues on harder difficulty levels.

What ruined it for me was how linear all the missions were and the fact that there was no exploration anymore.

 

[subversus]

Still not understanding the Mass Effect 2 hate. The lack of RPG elements was really that big of a deal to everyone?

I can't understand people playing Mass Effect for RPG elements. There are some real RPGs you know, you can play them if you don't like action games with plot and some choices.

edit: The first game wasn't a full-blooded RPG also. The only social aspect of it was leveraged by player manually while in the second game you do it by your choices which is more natural and immersive.

 

[nemesun]

Still not understanding the Mass Effect 2 hate. The lack of RPG elements was really that big of a deal to everyone?

Yes it was. I don't want Gears in all my games, and certainly not that shitty streamlined pile of Gulliver's travels that they spoon fed us.
I had high hopes for this gen after ME but they managed to take away everything I loved from the first game in favor of angsty "Epicness". Atleast I'm grateful for AP and Obsidian.

 

[Sotha Sil]

I can't understand people playing Mass Effect for RPG elements. There are some real RPGs you know, you can play them if you don't like action games with plot and some choices.

Yeah, "some real RPGs", with an emphasis on the "some". These are getting pretty rare. It's perfectly normal to bitch when a great RPG developer gets closer to the shooter/hack'n'slash mainstream.

 

[webrunner]

It's funny, coming from a P&P background, there's a lot of debate over "rollplaying" and "roleplaying". It's generally considered that being too numerically 'crunchy' over fluff is a bad thing, as is too many stats, etc. Streamlining tends to be good if they dont remove creativity.

The ME->ME2 discussion is kind of backwards.. the games are some of the heaviest fluff games ever, - they still have plenty of "role playing" but they're losing their "roll playing" elements.

Remember, BG is a D&D game, and D&D was never ultimately about the stats. Don't forget your roots.

 

[DaBuddaDa]

Yeah, "some real RPGs", with an emphasis on the "some". These are getting pretty rare. It's perfectly normal to bitch when a great RPG developer gets closer to the shooter/hack'n'slash mainstream.

"These" are more numerous and wonderful than ever, you need to look harder.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

Still not understanding the Mass Effect 2 hate. The lack of RPG elements was really that big of a deal to everyone?

I don't hate ME2 but it makes Bioware look a bit lazy when they opt to shove game flaws under a rug instead of adressing them.

The menus in ME2, for example, are just as badly designed as the ones in ME1. The difference is you spend WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY less time in menus for ME2 and there are less of them.

 

[smenden18]

I can understand if a game doesn’t suit one’s personal tastes, but to say ME2 is “ruined” because of certain design choices that don’t fit into particular RPG conventions is ridiculous.

The game is amazing, and the current Metacritic score of 96 (from 98 independent reviews) should say something to any rational individual regardless of how one feels about game reviews/reviewers. I have similar hopes for Dragon Age 2.

 

[evangd007]

It's funny, coming from a P&P background, there's a lot of debate over "rollplaying" and "roleplaying". It's generally considered that being too numerically 'crunchy' over fluff is a bad thing, as is too many stats, etc. Streamlining tends to be good if they dont remove creativity.

The ME->ME2 discussion is kind of backwards.. the games are some of the heaviest fluff games ever, - they still have plenty of "role playing" but they're losing their "roll playing" elements.

Remember, BG is a D&D game, and D&D was never ultimately about the stats. Don't forget your roots.

Roll players are not munchkins by default. They may enjoy the strategic decision making elements of both combat and character building, without the faceless, distant overlord feeling you get in a pure strategy game.

 

[webrunner]

Roll players are not munchkins by default. They may enjoy the strategic decision making elements of both combat and character building, without the faceless, distant overlord feeling you get in a pure strategy game.

Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with some good crunchy crunch. I'm just saying that one shouldn't value it over all else, particularly when it's certainly not what bioware is focusing on (even Dragon Age didn't really focus on crunch that much, otherwise there woudlnt be certain issues like the inability to respec late-gained characters, but it was more crunchy then Mass Effect.)

 

[nemesun]

It's funny, coming from a P&P background, there's a lot of debate over "rollplaying" and "roleplaying". It's generally considered that being too numerically 'crunchy' over fluff is a bad thing, as is too many stats, etc. Streamlining tends to be good if they dont remove creativity.

The ME->ME2 discussion is kind of backwards.. the games are some of the heaviest fluff games ever, - they still have plenty of "role playing" but they're losing their "roll playing" elements.

Remember, BG is a D&D game, and D&D was never ultimately about the stats. Don't forget your roots.

Stats are important to me, but not as important as that sense of freedom you get from choosing & exploring your own path. Alpha Protocol is a great example of what you could achieve when you give the player freedom to choose what he wants to achieve from the world you created. ME universe is very enticing to me but they managed to take away that sense of wonderment in favor of streamlined set pieces after set pieces.

 

[nemesun]

Roll players are not munchkins by default. They may enjoy the strategic decision making elements of both combat and character building, without the faceless, distant overlord feeling you get in a pure strategy game.

I concur.

 

[clashfan]

You all are going to buy DA2 and you are going to love what Bioware gives you.

 

[subversus]

 

[ZombieSupaStar]

You all are going to buy DA2 and you are going to love what Bioware gives you.

meh couldnt even finish ME2 or dragon age 1, prolly wont. Maybe swtor though, before it sinks them.

 

[HK-47]

It's funny, coming from a P&P background, there's a lot of debate over "rollplaying" and "roleplaying". It's generally considered that being too numerically 'crunchy' over fluff is a bad thing, as is too many stats, etc. Streamlining tends to be good if they dont remove creativity.

The ME->ME2 discussion is kind of backwards.. the games are some of the heaviest fluff games ever, - they still have plenty of "role playing" but they're losing their "roll playing" elements.

Remember, BG is a D&D game, and D&D was never ultimately about the stats. Don't forget your roots.

Yes except ME1 provides a better "role playing" experience. And DAO, MotB, The Witcher, Alpha Protocol, New Vegas, even some JRPGs like Devil Survivor are superior on that front. ME2 is easily the simplest and least reactive. It is however the most stable and polished out of all of those.

 

[water_wendi]

Maybe swtor though, before it sinks them.

As much as im looking forward to TOR i have a feeling that game is going to be Biowares Earth and Beyond.

 

[SirPenguin]

http://na.llnet.bioware.cdn.ea.com/u/f/eagames/bioware/dragonage2/assets/gallery/concepts/emissary-01-p.jpg[IMG][/QUOTE]
The male version of a Spitter crossed with a Witch

I dunno. Neat looking, I guess, but it just keeps reminding how unfocused the art direction is in this game.

 

[subversus]

The male version of a Spitter crossed with a Witch

I dunno. Neat looking, I guess, but it just keeps reminding how unfocused the art direction is in this game.

it looks BAD. I was ironic in the header.

Well, I don't know how they did it but I don't want to buy DA2. I didn't give a shit about details and rumours until I learned that the party members can't wear the armor you give them. They're like Sulik in fucking FO2 (the game is 12 year old btw). You could make him wear a power armor but he'd still look like Sulik, bare chest and all :lol

 

[Fimbulvetr]

http://na.llnet.bioware.cdn.ea.com/u/f/eagames/bioware/dragonage2/assets/gallery/concepts/emissary-01-p.jpg

This guy looks like a zombified Morrigan from the back. :lol

 

[subversus]

This guy looks like a zombified Morrigan from the back. :lol

and why does IT wear a spiky ironplate on the only ONE shoulder? Also another piece of armor on the other hand but not on the right hand. Darkspawn economics suffer from financial crisis I guess.

 

[Jerk]

it looks BAD. I was ironic in the header.

Well, I don't know how they did it but I don't want to buy DA2. I didn't give a shit about details and rumours until I learned that the party members can't wear the armor you give them. They're like Sulik in fucking FO2 (the game is 12 year old btw). You could make him wear a power armor but he'd still look like Sulik, bare chest and all :lol

The fuck...

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I don't think Bioware ruined ME2. They made a lot of changes that, even before release, I liked some and disliked others.

With DA2, I have not really liked anything they've said - and even if I do at some point, the vast majority of changes they've made already bother me.

 

[subversus]

I don't think Bioware ruined ME2. They made a lot of changes that, even before release, I liked some and disliked others.

With DA2, I have not really liked anything they've said - and even if I do at some point, the vast majority of changes they've made already bother me.

the main issue is that ME needed streamlining while DA clearly doesn't need it.

 

[SirPenguin]

the main issue is that ME needed streamlining while DA clearly doesn't need it.

More generally, ME1 -> ME2 showed that BioWare knew the strengths and weaknesses of the original. With the sequel, they knew exactly what to cut and exactly what to focus on.

With DA1 -> DA2, it looks like BioWare is throwing an entire pot of spaghetti, boiling water and all, against a wall to see what sticks. There is no rhyme or reason to what they've changed and what they've kept.

Though even that might not be enough to fully explain their actions. It might be better to say that BioWare threw a pot of spaghetti, a can of red sauce, and a bag of croutons against a wall and claimed to have revolutionized how to eat pasta.

 

[Lostconfused]

More generally, ME1 -> ME2 showed that BioWare knew the strengths and weaknesses of the original. With the sequel, they knew exactly what to cut and exactly what to half ass.

Would be more accurate.

 

[RPGCrazied]

I'll still buy it, though it really looks like a devil may cry game, kinda actiony. I have faith in Bioware though.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

though it really looks like a devil may cry game

What makes you say this?

 

[Vamphuntr]

More generally, ME1 -> ME2 showed that BioWare knew the strengths and weaknesses of the original. With the sequel, they knew exactly what to cut and exactly what to focus on.

I agree with the fact that they indeed improved the combat. A lot. But at the same time cutting the RPG elements wasn't probably their best idea. There are barely any different guns in the game and you can't even see their stats (attack power, firing rate, ...). Instead of tweaking the drops system and inventory system they simply cut them completely. You can't outfit your team with armors, enemies only drop ammo and there are no items to collect aside the quest items. They streamlined the dungeons to a bunch of straight lines with some side room containing chests with money that you have to play that awful memory match game to get them. There are not much skills to put points into either, since they removed most of the passive skills. The mining minigame was even worse than exploring with the mako. As a whole it would have worked well if it was the first game in the series but as a sequel people were expecting improvement and not extreme cuts like that.

 

[epmode]

The thing with the Mass Effect 2 hate, I just don't believe anyone who says that 1 is better than 2. ..unless you're talking about the main storyline.

Inventory management is fun. Some of my favorite games are almost spreadsheets. Exploration is fun too. <3 Risen <3 But when you implement that stuff as poorly as Bioware did in ME1, I'm happy to see it gone.

I've always seen Mass Effect as a direct appeal to console/controller gameplay and the sequel was a perfect extension of that.

I also figured Dragon Age was going to be Bioware's stat-heavy exploration-based RPG which would complement Mass Effect nicely. Too bad about that one, eh?

 

[subversus]

I agree with the fact that they indeed improved the combat. A lot. But at the same time cutting the RPG elements wasn't probably their best idea.

ME 1 didn't have any meaningful RPG elements. They reinvented social skills (ME2 implementation is much better because you've to actually play your role if you want to upgrade instead of just adding point into paragon/renegase). They've removed hacking skills and instead offered tech upgrades for that. They've left all combat skills, but that's not RPG, it's just combat. You can upgrade your warrior in every hack-n-slash game, that doesn't make it RPG.

What else was there?

Yes, you can't customize your weapons, party armor and all that. I agree that it's bad, but they have already recognized that. They'll add more RPG elements in ME3 because judging from the lead gameplay designer's GAMESCOM presentation they understand what was good and what was too out there. At least it seems that ME team just don't have their heads up their asses and know what they do. Dragon Age team simplifies with no direction. Just because it seems to be too complicated.

Mass Effect was an action-adventure game with RPG elements from the start. Dragon Age was an old-school RPG.

 

[cartman414]

You all are going to buy DA2 and you are going to love what Bioware gives you.

Not all of us have had our standards lowered by the console crowd.

 

[K.Jack]

Must every Bioware thread become an ME1 vs ME2 battle?

Let's focus on the topic at hand, which is trolling Dragon Age 2.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

The only thing I truly dislike (rather than a gnawing apathy about an even more statless RPG) is the feeling like they're trying to have their cake and eat it too (players of the first who love RPGs in general and people who didn't touch/like the first who are usually apathetic about RPG mechanics).

I agree with the fact that they indeed improved the combat. A lot. But at the same time cutting the RPG elements wasn't probably their best idea. There are barely any different guns in the game and you can't even see their stats (attack power, firing rate, ...). Instead of tweaking the drops system and inventory system they simply cut them completely. You can't outfit your team with armors, enemies only drop ammo and there are no items to collect aside the quest items. They streamlined the dungeons to a bunch of straight lines with some side room containing chests with money that you have to play that awful memory match game to get them. There are not much skills to put points into either, since they removed most of the passive skills. The mining minigame was even worse than exploring with the mako. As a whole it would have worked well if it was the first game in the series but as a sequel people were expecting improvement and not extreme cuts like that.

This sounds shockingly familiar; especially the bolded. Deja vu city over and over again lately...

 

[VaLiancY]

Must every Bioware thread become an ME1 vs ME2 battle?

Let's focus on the topic at hand, which is trolling Dragon Age 2.

Dragon Age 2 is the one doing the trolling.

 

[McNerdBurger]

I work at Bioware. I know a lot of you are pissed that the game is shifting more towards an action RPG, but I assure you, it's still DA. When I first heard about the changes and saw the early gameplay I honestly said the exact same thing "omg dynasty warriors". Now that it's all coming together, I can tell you that it's basically DA combat at a quicker pace, with clearer feedback and a more stylized aesthetic.

Obviously some of you aren't happy about the aesthetic you've seen so far, and wish we were sticking with a more traditional fantasy art style and sense of physics. This really just comes down to personal preference though, so all we can really do is make the game we want and hope that people like it. You have to realize that the people behind these games want to do something different on a project to project basis. We're always trying to move forward, but sometimes we might just move sideways because we feel like trying a new style.

The gameplay has really become a very interesting hybrid that is playable in multiple ways. You can play it almost exactly like DA:O if you like: pausing and giving commands, jumping between party members, fine tuning tactics, choosing from hundreds (I think... must be up there) of different abilities.
Or....
You can play it more like an action-rpg, sticking mostly to a single character, and really focusing on their unique skills. I think many people (maybe the majority of those on console?), will find themselves playing this way. Honestly I may do both, depending on what mood I'm in that night. I'm currently spending my free time playing through DA:O again, as well as my first run-through of The Witcher. They're both great games with very different combat styles. I'm always surprised though to see people upset at Bioware injecting some action into our RPG, while being perfectly happy with The Witcher. The fact that the combat is simple and rhythm-based, and that it has almost no equipment customization doen't take away from the immersion of it's story and the depth of it's atmosphere. CD Projekt understands that RPGs can be many things, and did exactly what they wanted, with great success.

As usual, we have difficulty settings that will let you decide exactly how much strategy is needed. If you play on normal and complain that the game didn't require any strategic thinking, well, jack it up next time. I'm not responsible for any of this kind of balancing so I really don't know how it'll all be set up when the game ships.

Sorry about the giant post. I normally just lurk, but felt I should chime in to let you guys know that we're still making a Dragon Age game, and that I think the fears about dynasty warriorizing will calm once you see it in more depth. Hopefully that's soon... I'm also not in charge of marketing

 

[Ashodin]

I think the fears about dynasty warriorizing will calm once you see it in more depth. Hopefully that's soon... I'm also not in charge of marketing

Apparently not, as the images and media for the game released is terrible, and there's been NOTHING outside of the "beginning demo" area. The game is three to four months away. Where's the variety?

 

[clashfan]

I work at Bioware. I know a lot of you are pissed that the game is shifting more towards an action RPG, but I assure you, it's still DA. When I first heard about the changes and saw the early gameplay I honestly said the exact same thing "omg dynasty warriors". Now that it's all coming together, I can tell you that it's basically DA combat at a quicker pace, with clearer feedback and a more stylized aesthetic.

Obviously some of you aren't happy about the aesthetic you've seen so far, and wish we were sticking with a more traditional fantasy art style and sense of physics. This really just comes down to personal preference though, so all we can really do is make the game we want and hope that people like it. You have to realize that the people behind these games want to do something different on a project to project basis. We're always trying to move forward, but sometimes we might just move sideways because we feel like trying a new style.

The gameplay has really become a very interesting hybrid that is playable in multiple ways. You can play it almost exactly like DA:O if you like: pausing and giving commands, jumping between party members, fine tuning tactics, choosing from hundreds (I think... must be up there) of different abilities.
Or....
You can play it more like an action-rpg, sticking mostly to a single character, and really focusing on their unique skills. I think many people (maybe the majority of those on console?), will find themselves playing this way. Honestly I may do both, depending on what mood I'm in that night. I'm currently spending my free time playing through DA:O again, as well as my first run-through of The Witcher. They're both great games with very different combat styles. I'm always surprised though to see people upset at Bioware injecting some action into our RPG, while being perfectly happy with The Witcher. The fact that the combat is simple and rhythm-based, and that it has almost no equipment customization doen't take away from the immersion of it's story and the depth of it's atmosphere. CD Projekt understands that RPGs can be many things, and did exactly what they wanted, with great success.

As usual, we have difficulty settings that will let you decide exactly how much strategy is needed. If you play on normal and complain that the game didn't require any strategic thinking, well, jack it up next time. I'm not responsible for any of this kind of balancing so I really don't know how it'll all be set up when the game ships.

Sorry about the giant post. I normally just lurk, but felt I should chime in to let you guys know that we're still making a Dragon Age game, and that I think the fears about dynasty warriorizing will calm once you see it in more depth. Hopefully that's soon... I'm also not in charge of marketing

JUDAS!


Just joking. Hope the game turns out great!