Ultimadrago
Member
Fate/Zero 17
I've heard of
, but this is ridiculous!
I've heard of
getting back-stabbed
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SonicX_Zero
Member
But
Tokiomi doesn't know that Beserker's master was saved by Kirei, also iirc Kariya was never known to only have a single command seal left and I dont remember the Matou being one of the three original families.
watervengeance
Member
Remember that Berserker isn't defeated yet. It doesn't really matter whether Kariya is alive, since Tokiomi never considered him a threat anyway.
Edit:
Then again, even if Tokiomi thinks that Kariya is dead, that doesn't mean that the Tohsaka team knows that.
SonicX_Zero
Member
So went back and checked the 1st ep. of Iri consultation and you're right the Matou are among the original, I mixed up the names and always thought the Melloi were among the original 3. Silly me. ^^;
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
Man, fuck
That spinning camera part was pretty awful. I get what they were going for, and I appreciate that they're trying to do interesting things with the animation, but it was just so damn awkward.
I have a feeling that
is going to start pissing me off something fierce, but the show has really managed to recapture my interest since the stupid as hell boss battle ended. Hopefully it doesn't pull that kind of nonsense again for the end game.
Kirei. Most dudes just get a piercing or a tattoo or wear shitty clothes when they go through their rebellious phase, but this dude just goes full psycho.
Tokiomi was a deluded nutjob, but he was a cool and sympathetic deluded nutjob. Dude needed a slap in the face -- not a knife in the back.
That spinning camera part was pretty awful. I get what they were going for, and I appreciate that they're trying to do interesting things with the animation, but it was just so damn awkward.
I have a feeling that
Kirei
Kireeeeeeeeei 
The worst part is knowing that this was going to happen all along. I really dislike Kirei, he does a lot of terrible stuff even through FSN in the most irritating ways.
The worst part is knowing that this was going to happen all along. I really dislike Kirei, he does a lot of terrible stuff even through FSN in the most irritating ways.
Welp.
Now Fate/Zero has entered the "I already knew this was going to happen" phase and there's nothing you can hope for otherwise :<
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
Glad I'm not alone in this.Kireeeeeeeeei
The worst part is knowing that this was going to happen all along. I really dislike Kirei, he does a lot of terrible stuff even through FSN in the most irritating ways.
Fate/Zero 17
Ah, Gilgamesh. Such a bastard.
Also, (fairly big) F/SN spoiler:
So yeah, I found this episode very well done. Kirei isn't exactly my favorite character but his progression has been pretty well done. The next episode should be interesting since it appears it'll detail Kiritsugu's past.
Ah, Gilgamesh. Such a bastard.
So begins Kirei's descent unto darkness. The final scene with him smiling was pretty chilling I have to admit. His progression with Gilgamesh's influence has been really interesting to watch. While Tokiomi was probably one of the least interesting Masters for me, I still felt bad for him in the end. He had a fairly justifiable cause and still cared for his own family (actually I gotta think about that since I just remembered the whole thing with Sakura). The scene with Rin was pretty sad, in hindsight. While he had a lot of power in the form of Gilgamesh, he allowed that to lower his guard around the people around him. I think having played VN amplified the severity of his death with Rin having to take up the mantle of the Tohsaka family without her father.
I'm also gonna miss his beard.
I'm also gonna miss his beard.
Also, (fairly big) F/SN spoiler:
I found it interesting that Tokiomi was killed by the same dagger that will eventually be used against Kirei at the end of the Fate story. Well, I don't know if it's the exact same one but the foreshadowing is still there, I think.
So yeah, I found this episode very well done. Kirei isn't exactly my favorite character but his progression has been pretty well done. The next episode should be interesting since it appears it'll detail Kiritsugu's past.
Same one. Kirei eventually gives it to Rin... to which Rin hands to Shirou to kill Kirei with.
I thought it was also interesting in a parallel to FSN kind of way that Tokiomi wanted to team up with Kiritsugu in the same way Rin and Shirou formed an alliance. History repeating itself, ect!
Rin and Tokiomi scene was also straight out of FSN but I think he gives her the jewel necklace instead.
I thought it was also interesting in a parallel to FSN kind of way that Tokiomi wanted to team up with Kiritsugu in the same way Rin and Shirou formed an alliance. History repeating itself, ect!
Rin and Tokiomi scene was also straight out of FSN but I think he gives her the jewel necklace instead.
Kiritsugu's past explained.
I'm surprised they're taking an entire episode for that... I know that there's a lot to cover but for a series that was consistent about Grail Wars, suddenly getting out of it is going to be a little off-putting.
As for Episode 16, I hated the episode. It was extremely boring. The only portions I enjoyed was the Kirei Gilgamesh talking and Kirei Tokiomi scene.
EDIT: Oh I also liked Tokiomi+Rin scene
EDIT2:
Someone comment on this but didn't Risei fall face down when he got shot by Kayneth? But he shows up face up in the beginning of the episode. I thought it was weird considering F/Z takes consistency to the max. I assume there was possibly cut scenes somewhere?
Eh, I don't mind. I like Kiritsugu and am interested enough in his story. That and... BIG FSN spoilers
he gets totally robbed eventually so I've always felt sorry/that his character was wasted in a lot of ways
I hope they do more than one episode for Kiritsugu's backstory. He's the main character and we don't know anything about him yet.
Risei was still alive after being shot. He drew stuff with his blood to transfer the command spells.
We only have around 8 episodes left. I don't want more than an episode for the backstory.
watervengeance
Member
The back story is important.
I'm sure it'll be only an episode, but it's important to the plot. As mentioned above Kiritsugu is supposed to be the "main character" after all.
Ultimadrago
Member
Yeah, the idea of
the exchange of the Master being a follower/student of the Servant, vice versa (with the strength of Command Spells regarding Gilgamesh's "Independence") should make for more interesting/entertaining interactions and teamwork between the two.
One of my favorite teams, I wish the same.
Berserker, whoever he fights will put up one hell of a battle.
zerokoolpsx
Member
Gilgamesh being Gilgamesh.
Can't wait for next week.
Kirei becoming the antagonist. That scene with Tokiomi and Rin was literally straight out of FSN. Felt sad when the apprentice becomes the master. Wanted Tokiomi to put up a fight.
Basileus777
Member
Finally Kotomine becomes the Kotomine we know and love. The episode managed to stay tense enough even though it was obvious from the title what was going to happen. I can't say I mourn for Tokiomi, he's probably the dumbest character in this show. He has Gilgamesh as his servant and manages to accomplish nothing before getting betrayed.
InsaneZero
Member
To assess the current situation:
Kotomine Kirei now has an entire arm's worth of command seals on top of the ones that he had previously as a master, and an incredibly strong and willing Servant to back him up. He has incredibly detailed information on every single Master in this war except for Kiritsugu, and even then he knows exactly where the Einzberns are hiding now. On top of that, he's an incredibly skilled fighter and assassin of his own right. There is nothing in his history or his personality that anyone can use against him, while he's perfectly willing to do the same thing to them.
Most importantly, he accumulated all these advantages over everyone while he was still conflicted over his purpose in the battle. Now he's all in. Kiritsugu would be completely freaking out over this if he knew what happened, and for good reason.
Most importantly, he accumulated all these advantages over everyone while he was still conflicted over his purpose in the battle. Now he's all in. Kiritsugu would be completely freaking out over this if he knew what happened, and for good reason.
Are you familiar with what happens in Fate/stay night at all?
InsaneZero
Member
Oh yes, I've just finished doing a reread of Unlimited Blade Works and Heaven's Feel. I actually read Fate/Zero beforehand also, so I am familiar with what happens here too.
I've read the synopsis of the novels but not actually read them. How does it compare to the anime? Does the anime pretty much stay close to the source material? Can you put it in spoilers so people won't read them?
TheVampire
Banned
I really dont get wtf is going on in this anime.
What part don't you get? Maybe I can help.
InsaneZero
Member
For the most part, the anime does stay very close to the essence of the novels. A large majority of the differences come from how the anime portrays the characterization; the novels uses the third-person narration heavily to describe the thought processes of each character. The anime does not take this route. Case in point, this episode:
The entire meeting between Kirei and Tokiomi to inform of Risei's death is completely anime-original. In the novels, the narrator goes to great lengths to describe just how much of an impact this death on Tokiomi's confidence. Tokiomi is actually an average magus given prominence not due to his talent but for his hard work and effort (a detail omitted from this episode). He has become who he is due to how he planned out his life to become the ideal magus, so naturally his plan coming apart bit by bit would shake him quite a bit. The anime depicts all of this simply by having him respond to Risei's death in a very shaken, angry manner, an action that would normally be completely out of character for him.
Afterwards, Gilgamesh probing into Kirei's thoughts about the matter condenses a relatively long narrative about Kirei's personal feelings about how his life has turned out thus far (which includes a flashback to his recently deceased wife that was mentioned in the very beginning of the story) into approximately 30 seconds of dialogue. The scene that this narrative takes place, when Kirei first discovers Risei's body, is not even alluded to in the anime. This is probably because Kirei actually sheds tears for his father, not out of sadness, but due to how he wasn't the one to actually kill him. Naturally, this is cut out of the anime since the visual direction has Kirei strictly being completely emotionless until those last moments. Instead, the anime has Gilgamesh cut right into the heart of the matter.
Afterwards, Gilgamesh probing into Kirei's thoughts about the matter condenses a relatively long narrative about Kirei's personal feelings about how his life has turned out thus far (which includes a flashback to his recently deceased wife that was mentioned in the very beginning of the story) into approximately 30 seconds of dialogue. The scene that this narrative takes place, when Kirei first discovers Risei's body, is not even alluded to in the anime. This is probably because Kirei actually sheds tears for his father, not out of sadness, but due to how he wasn't the one to actually kill him. Naturally, this is cut out of the anime since the visual direction has Kirei strictly being completely emotionless until those last moments. Instead, the anime has Gilgamesh cut right into the heart of the matter.
Additionally, the anime also rearranges scenes so that the events portrayed flow right after another. This episode had one scene cut out of it, which I think will most likely be included later since it really didn't have much to do with the progression of events depicted in the episode at all.
EDIT: Oh yeah, the events of this episode as written in the novelization also had some serious spoilers for Heaven's Feel:
During the moment where Kirei reveals Tokiomi's true intentions to Gilgamesh, he was actually outlining the entire purpose and goal behind the Holy Grail War in general. This includes the original intent of the Einzberns and why they set up this system in the first place. However, since very little of that information is actually necessary to Fate/Zero, the anime simply cuts out a majority of it and gets right to the point.
MORE IMPORTANT EDIT: I mentioned how the anime has depicted the characterization thus far, but there is one character that the anime decided to take a completely different route on, and that's Kiritsugu.
Up to this point, the novels have explored quite a bit of Kiritsugu's nature, including why he does what he does. The anime cuts out a lot of that, only really alluding to them. I believe that this is a very intentional act on the anime's part.
That last spoiler box is super important. I really want to read the interview book on why they did this.
watervengeance
Member
Trying to adapt everything from the novel would be very difficult. So much of the characterization comes from a third person omniscient narrator. If they included all of the scenes as well, the anime would probably be twice as long.
The anime for the most part, cuts out the thought processes of everyone and relies on the dialogue to do the work.
Edit: I recommend not reading the novel before the anime is over. It'll make you critical of everything.
The anime for the most part, cuts out the thought processes of everyone and relies on the dialogue to do the work.
Edit: I recommend not reading the novel before the anime is over. It'll make you critical of everything.
They will be using original material as well to expand on the episode. It should be very interesting, just like ep10 in the first season. I'm excited.
Please mark your spoilers properly. Being careless with stuff just because it aired last week is not cool.
As for the question,
seeing how Risei had time to write a message in blood, it's obvious he didn't die immediately after falling. So it doesn't matter how he fell. He probably wrote the message, turned himself over, looked into the heavens, and then died!
InsaneZero
Member
Quite. Because of these changes, the next episode will be one of the most important episodes in the series.
Which makes sense for me.
I'm so hype!
I'm pretty sensitive about novel spoilers and F/SN stuff, so I don't want any details, but would you say that from this point on the show is basically going into the final arc? Just a yes or no, thanks!
Based on F/SN, yes.
InsaneZero
Member
EDIT #2:
All that I can really say is that the show is going to endgame. Not sure what you would define as a final arc, but there you go.
My understanding is that we're now in the 4th book and Urobuchi(or someone with the franchise anyway) stated that everything else was really a prelude to this.
Berserker should steal that bike.
Ultimadrago
Member
Terrible!
dakkumauji
Member
I'm going to end up afraid of this thread even if I'm up-to-date with the series. On this crossfire of spoilers, that go along with an interchange of nods and hints concerning other related material, I think one will have to be careful on the future. That or I'll have to check out now all this things you are commenting.
Spoilers are bad. Any discussion of non-F/Z stuff should be very clearly tagged AND kept to a minimum if used at all. Speculation should be kept to information presented only in the anime. Any spoilers of any kind at all take from the novels should not be allowed, even tagged. That's how I feel.
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