Support NeoGAF

[Piston Hyundai]

Nope, still not watching.

 

[olympia]

Here's my thought question for everyone. How do we judge The Simpsons at the point? Do we go by the spectacular highs of the early to mid 90s? Or, do we include all of the bad stuff as well, and if we do, how do we balance it?

Because, if we weigh the good and the bad episodes, not only is the show underwater, it's drowning.

And that's just sad for as good as the show once was.

well, there's the simpsons and then theres zombie simpsons as dhs aptly classifies it

 

[Gnome Scat]

butwhy.gif

 

[BreezyLimbo]

It's for the treehouse of horror episode

so it's not canon or anything

 

[El Odio]

Damn, 600 episodes already? I remember being I think high school when they were making a big deal about their 450th one with Krusty getting married.

 

[Red Devil]

I remember watching some lousy episode with Frank Grimes's son about a decade ago. And here we go again.

The episode with Grimes' son was bad, it was a Sideshow Bob episode though.

 

[Anth0ny]

still waiting for the "marge becomes a robot" episode

 

[superpickleman]

It's for the treehouse of horror episode

so it's not canon or anything

I'm still waiting for the conclusion of Homer3. How did he get home? What type of erotic cakes did he purchase? WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

Fuck man, child me needed closure.

 

[Dynamite Shikoku]

But Grimey died, like The Simpsons did after that episode

 

[Bert409]

To quote Doug Walker: "Can The Simpsons end already so we can start talking about how great it was rather than how bad it's become?"

Nothing is stopping anybody from talking about how great it was. It's just that nerds LOVE to be negative and miserable.


8-9 excellent seasons in a row still make it one of the greatest shows of all time in my book.

 

[Septimus Prime]

LyleLanley's post all bad and broken? Sorry, Lyle, the mob has spoken.

 

[Joni]

Oh no, they are bringing back a character for a short meaningless cameo in an Halloween episode. Must be out of ideas.

 

[scorcher59]

Ugh, just UGH!

 

[RareFantasy64]

I wish there was a DVD collection of their Treehouse of Horror specials. Maybe there is one, but I don't think there is

 

[Joni]

You know what makes this extra funny; Grimes already came back, less than two years ago, in Treehouse of Horror XXVI.

 

[dankir]

At this point, what can the writers even write about? The show's been on for almost 30 years no?

It needs to die, go out with dignity.

 

[Dali]

Here's my thought question for everyone. How do we judge The Simpsons at the point? Do we go by the spectacular highs of the early to mid 90s? Or, do we include all of the bad stuff as well, and if we do, how do we balance it?

Because, if we weigh the good and the bad episodes, not only is the show underwater, it's drowning.

And that's just sad for as good as the show once was.

I judge it based on what I've watched, so fortunately only a few of the newer episodes influence my opinion.

 

[TheOddOne]

Holy shit really?

Episode when Homer is king of Mardi Gras. (edit: Back in early 2000s?)

Yeah, he turns up in "The Great Louse Detective" (Season 14, episode 6).

When Homer questions how Frank Grimes Sr. could've had children if he wasn't married, Junior explains, "He happened to like hookers, okay!?"

There were some decent gags, but most of the stuff with Grimes Jr. was terrible.

 

[Septimus Prime]

He happened to like hookers.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

I hated the original Grimes episode when it aired, too.

I understand the satire more now, but I still have a hard time respecting it because it was basically an acknowledgement of what the show was destined to devolve into.

 

[xevis]

Dear Simpsons,

You haven't been relevant in two decades and you haven't had a good showrunner in even longer. Everything about you sucks. Please go away.

xoxo

 

[barit]

Just think about it. Half of the Simpsons VO's here in Germany have died already and this fucking show still continues. Fuck you Fox

 

[RareFantasy64]

You know what makes this extra funny; Grimes already came back, less than two years ago, in Treehouse of Horror XXVI.

Was it a really small role? Like just being in a crowd?

 

[PeakPointMatrix]

It's not. It was a bad episode, Grimes was a bad character and anyone who likes that episode has bad taste.

Lyle.

Lyle.

You're embarrassing yourself. Go take a lap.

Just think about it. Half of the Simpsons VO's here in Germany are already dead and this fucking show still continues. Fuck you Fox

Fuck fox for employing hundreds of hardworking artists both domestically and abroad with stable work for the last two and a half decades?

 

[Joni]

Was it a really small role? Like just being in a crowd?

He was the main enemy in the Ren & Stimpy inspired couch gag.

 

[KingBroly]

Grimes is probably a Top 3 one-off Simpsons character.

He is literally every hater who says 'this shit doesn't make sense' for that universe. And them piling on the insanity just for him to lose his mind made him and that episode much better. Meeting Gerald Ford, winning a Grammy, going to Space (You've never been?) all just great stuff to send that character over the edge.

At least it's a ToH episode, cuz my initial reaction was not kind.

 

[SMG]

At this point, what can the writers even write about? The show's been on for almost 30 years no?

It needs to die, go out with dignity.

Impossible at this point.

 

[GhostTrick]

Under rated post. This is freakin genius. :")

 

[GhostTrick]

still waiting for the "marge becomes a robot" episode

Also the one in which Moe's get a cellphone and Bart a bear. And this crazy marriage in which something happens :")

 

[yanipheonu]

Seriously though, why?!

 

[Joni]

Guys. Please stop waiting for They'll Never Stop The Simpsons to become a reality:

still waiting for the "marge becomes a robot" episode

Also the one in which Moe's get a cellphone

and Bart a bear.

And this crazy marriage in which something happens :")

The youngest of these things aired five years ago.

 

[Oblivion]

I never understood how someone could work at a nuclear power plant but only make enough of a salary to live in between bowling alleys.

 

[Joni]

I never understood how someone could work at a nuclear power plant but only make enough of a salary to live in between bowling alleys.

Crippling health care debt. He was hurt in a silo explosion.

 

[Richie]

I remember disliking the tone of the original episode and haven't really ever been able to enjoy it since. Meh.

It was a good example of the evolution of Homer to being a stupid, mean-spirited moron instead of the bumbling but well-intentioned buffoon in the earlier seasons. I hated that transformation.

Discussions on this always remind me of what Bill Oakley, executive producer of seasons 7 and 8 alongside Josh Weinstein, wrote to Dead Homer Society...

Fellas:

You do realize that the Homer depicted in “Homer’s Enemy” is a satirical take on certain elements of Homer’s character and history that we (meaning, the writers at the time) always found excessive, right? At least that’s what it was intended to be, and I realize the distinction may well be so subtle as to be meaningless to many, if not most, fans.

But, that said:

Anything that may have happened after that episode and that season should not be extrapolated from the content of the Grimes story.

On the continuum between Homer the Misguided but Essentially Well-Meaning Oaf Next Door and Homer the Absurdly-Gluttonous World-Famous Idiot with No Recognizable Human Traits or Emotions, we usually tried to to stay to the left. Not always, but usually.

But for this episode, as a counterpoint to Grimes, we intentionally threw in a lot of stuff that was ridiculously over-the-top (or so we thought) like Homer snoring at the funeral, for Pete’s sakes, and hauled out of the closet all his most unrealistic (though hilarious) past adventures (he went into outer space! he won a Grammy! President Ford moved in and invited him over for nachos!).

If Frank Grimes had crossed paths with the fairly normal Homer (of “Lisa’s Pony” for instance) it simply would not have been as funny or as clear, satirically, as it was to have him cross paths with the ridiculously-boorish world-famous glutton that we depicted in “Homer’s Enemy”.

Basically, the Homer depicted in that episode was an intentional self-parody, a catalog of gleeful excesses past and present.

If it didn’t come off as such to even the most devoted fans, it was certainly our mistake.

Didn’t somebody say all this on the DVD commentary?

Anyway,

That’s all.

Best,

Bill Oakley

Dead Homer Society's response may mirror your own:

First of all, thanks to Mr. Oakley for taking notice of us, and deeming us to have our heads far enough up our asses to deserve correction, but not so far as to make it unworthy of his time to offer that correction. Furthermore, we hope he understands how much we and so many others appreciate all the work he did on The Simpsons. It is a testament to the power of that work that we’re still talking about it all these years later.

To dispense with the smaller point first, Oakley is absolutely correct that Homer needed to be amped up a little from his usual self to provide a better contrast with the sober and staid Frank Grimes. As he writes, having a character like Grimes cross paths with the Homer of “Lisa’s Pony” wouldn’t have worked.

He is further correct that we can’t reasonably hold the rest of the series against “Homer’s Enemy”. Calling it a “turning point”, as the title of our post did, implies that this was somehow deliberate when, of course, the writers of “Homer’s Enemy” had no way to know that the show was going to go on for another three hundred episodes (so far), and that most of those episodes would feature Homer as an “Absurdly-Gluttonous World-Famous Idiot with No Recognizable Human Traits or Emotions”. In the context of the show at the time, having Homer recite his accomplishments and produce his Grammy worked as “an intentional self-parody, a catalog of gleeful excesses past and present”. It is only the subsequent descent of the series into unintentional self-parody that makes “Homer’s Enemy” seem like an early symptom of terrible things instead of the one-off it was intended to be.

We hope that Mr. Oakley can appreciate that from an audience point of view, privy only to the finished episodes and not the backstage goings on, “Homer’s Enemy” does seem to presage the decline of the show. It is true that this episode did not seal the show’s fate, as it is true that the Homer of “Homer’s Enemy” is much more akin to Homer we love than the one we despise. But for much of the wretched horde of remote wielding tube jockeys, letting Homer enjoy his life felt like opening a Pandora’s Box that had no hope at the bottom.

Sadly, those three hundred plus episodes after “Homer’s Enemy” must be acknowledged. They happened; and they have cheapened The Simpsons. Homer has become malicious, though not in “Homer’s Enemy”, nor even in much of Season 9. While the writers of “Homer’s Enemy” – which is an excellent episode – are not to blame for the ongoing tragedy of later seasons, neither can we ignore this first gaze into the abyss. The world is full of monstrous things that had grand and innocuous beginnings. Had this one not escaped its cage, had the show wound to a conclusion a year or two later instead of staggering on like the undead, we would remember this as the aberration it was intended to be.

Personally, if you ask me? The episode is pure comical genius.

 

[Menome]

Episode 300, where Bart moves into that large apartment, was when I stopped regularly watching The Simpsons. Crazy to think that there's been a whole 300 episodes more since then.

 

[LyleLanley]

Lyle.

Lyle.

You're embarrassing yourself. Go take a lap.

I stand by what I said.

 

[Ushojax]

I remember disliking the tone of the original episode and haven't really ever been able to enjoy it since. Meh.

It was a good example of the evolution of Homer to being a stupid, mean-spirited moron instead of the bumbling but well-intentioned buffoon in the earlier seasons. I hated that transformation.

That was the point, it was supposed to be a meta-episode that showed how a normal person would react to Homer. However it is fair to say that as the show descended into mediocrity, the characterisation of Homer was torn apart until indistinguishable from the satirical depiction in Homer's Enemy.

 

[Oblivion]

Crippling health care debt. He was hurt in a silo explosion.

But then why would he be surprised that Homer was able to afford a huge house like he does?

 

[Andrew Korenchkin]

The episode with Grimes' son was bad, it was a Sideshow Bob episode though.

Spoiler

The ending was terrible. Complete garbage.

 

[A Link to the Past]

The Simpsons writers are just doing laps over the shark

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

The amusing thing is that grimes is the very first time they started jumping the shark

so they're celebrating 20 years of jumping the shark

 

[Whogie]

That's fine for a Treehouse of Horror. I'll look forward to it.

 

[OricWindstar]

Quote from the EW article:

“They’re forming a sinister squadron of Simpsons enemies to try to kill the Simpsons,” executive producer Al Jean tells EW. “If that doesn’t make people tune in, I don’t know what else we can say.”

 

[Strax]

Just a reminder: there are far far more bad and terrible episodes of The Simpsons than there are good ones.

Not true at all, there are MAYBE five bad seasons.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Discussions on this always remind me of what Bill Oakley, executive producer of seasons 7 and 8 alongside Josh Weinstein, wrote to Dead Homer Society...

Dead Homer Society's response may mirror your own:

Personally, if you ask me? The episode is pure comical genius.

Yeah, this strikes at the heart of it. It also prompted me to re-read the entire article about Zombie Simpsons, which is still great.

"Homer's Enemy" bothered me when it premiered, and in present-day context, it may as well be interpreted as an open acknowledgement of the show's death, penned by the very people who created it. That's why it frustrated me even though it has its moments. It's the metaphorical equivalent of spotting the iceberg on the horizon well in advance but doing nothing to change course.

When I think quintessential Simpsons, there are dozens of episodes that come to mind, but the first one chronologically would probably be "The Telltale Head" all the way back in season 1. Bart wants to impress his peers, seeks advice from his father, is offered hopelessly misguided (but genuine) advice by Homer, hilarity ensues. It's a typical but excellently executed Simpsons subversion of then-standard sitcom fare: instead of the designated moral authority father figure providing wisdom and guidance, Homer and Bart clumsily and clearly demonstrate what not to do. And despite the episode culminating in a showdown with an angry and cartoonishly large mob, the whole thing feels somewhat grounded and real (and more genuine and nuanced than the sort of sitcoms that "Zombie Simpsons" references and contrasts for context). The principal characters are incompetent but not ill-intentioned, and there's at least some sense of consequence and reckoning, even when you know that nobody's in any real danger.

It's difficult to juxtapose that sort of stuff from the very early days against Homer sleep-talking during Grimes' funeral with everyone just playing it off for laughs. It's jarring in comparison, particularly so when Grimes' entire character is written to demonstrate how removed from reality Homer is has become. And with the rapid increase of Homer's wacky hijinks and crazy episode endings to follow shortly thereafter, "Homer's Enemy" stands out as the acknowledgement of a mistake that everyone could see but not correct.



(I don't really have an issue with the idea of resurrecting Grimes for a THOH episode, for what it's worth.)

 

[Triggerhappytel]

They are trying way too hard to get attention with their treehouse episodes these days

Last year the big thing was that sideshow Bob killed Bart and then kept reviving him to kill him again and again in increasingly grotesque ways. It wasn't funny, just kind of unnerving because there was a ridiculous amount of gore.

That sounds awful, but also indicative of the show's increasing amounts of physical violence as it has gone on.

 

[Joni]

But then why would he be surprised that Homer was able to afford a huge house like he does?

True. It might be that former union head and safety inspector Homer just makes a lot more than Grimes and the others. Because for instance Lenny moved from a dump to an apartment that shares a wall with a jai-alai court.

 

[the_batman]

the newer seasons aren't terrible guys, give it a shot and watch some of it.

btw, what will they do when the voice actors eventually pass away?

 

[Langdon Alger]

the newer seasons aren't terrible guys

Disagreed.

 

[Chairmanchuck]

Disagreed.

Langdon Alger
Dont believe his lies