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German computer mag: iPhone 7 w/ adapter sounds worse than iPhone 6 w/ 3.5mm jack

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Chittagong

Gold Member
The thing that really fucks me off is that in this wonderful Lightning/Bluetooth world there is absolutely no way (that is not 3.5mm adapter) for two people to connect headphones to one device. We travel so much with my wife, and love watching films on my iPad Pro with out own headphones.
 

sirap

Member
That has more to do with these IEMs being sensitive to OI than anything. I had a similar issue with the Shure SE846. The Andromeda sounds better/more balanced out of an iPhone 6 than it does out of a Chord Mojo for instance. That being said, I'm not sure whether the adapter adds any impedance. The Andro seems to sound best at around 2-3 OI. In any case I think a guy I know can help measure the effect of the adapter.

Yeah, but at the end of the day it still sucks if you happen to have these iems and want to use the latest and greatest iPhone as your source.

It'd be great to have actual data on the adapters. I've only spent an hour or so testing them on my dad's 7, and the 6 still remains the best dap for my Andros.
 
I've watched that through and the video isn't making it clear enough.

Is the iPhone 7 worse than the 6S when using the lightning to headphone adapter?

Or is the iPhone 7 using lightning headphones worse than the 6S with standard headphones??

I got my iPhone 7 today. I played the same song (R U Mine by Arctic Monkeys) on both that and my old 6s, listening as both an AIFF and a 256 AAC file. I listened with my Bose sound trues, my B&O H8s, and - because I'm a dick - the apple headphones that came with my 6s and the ones that come with the 7. I could hear no discernible difference between either phone. Maybe on the H8s, maybe, but honestly that could be my brain playing tricks on me. Otherwise, if there is a difference, it's so small as to not matter to somebody like me - I listen to a lot of music, but I'm in no way an audiophile or anything.

FWIW, and you'll instantly write me off for saying this, but: I didn't entirely hate the sound from the packed in iPhone 7 headphones. I'm sure they sound better than the old ones. Likely I'm just being insane, but part of me wonders if they sound better if they're lightning wired for some reason?

So in answer to your question, I don't think the 7 is worse at all. Sounds the same to me. Not saying there is no difference, because I'm sure very clever people with better ears than i will tell me that I am actually wrong because of science, but it sounds the same to these very layman ears.
 
Yeah, but at the end of the day it still sucks if you happen to have these iems and want to use the latest and greatest iPhone as your source.

It'd be great to have actual data on the adapters. I've only spent an hour or so testing them on my dad's 7, and the 6 still remains the best dap for my Andros.

My point was that it's not like the Andro sounds good out of the Mojo either, or the Leckerton Mk II, or any other number of great 1>OI sources and one would certainly expect it to. Phones like the Andro, EQ-8, SE846 and FIBASS that either exhibit very high senstivity or are susceptible to OI due to crazy crossovers are prettyyyyy rare in the IEM world making them outliers. The vast majority of iems should sound great out of the new 7.

And to the person saying I was defending Apple? I'm not. I'm defending its SQ, which is much, much more than adequate when compared to many enthusiast DAPs with specialized DACs or esoteric components. If you can honestly tell the difference in resolution between the 7 vs some of these top tier DAPs with good compression while on the go, more power to you.

FWIW, and you'll instantly write me off for saying this, but: I didn't entirely hate the sound from the packed in iPhone 7 headphones. I'm sure they sound better than the old ones. Likely I'm just being insane, but part of me wonders if they sound better if they're lightning wired for some reason?

I havent used the new lightning pods for music yet (use em mostly for podcasts) but theres a chance that they may have retuned the driver in the EarPods and that's why they sound different. An interesting little factoid is that the driver in the EarPod is actually designed by Fostex.
 

Fliesen

Member
I've watched that through and the video isn't making it clear enough.

Is the iPhone 7 worse than the 6S when using the lightning to headphone adapter?

Or is the iPhone 7 using lightning headphones worse than the 6S with standard headphones??

They're testing the 3.5mm jack in the 6S vs the 3.5mm Jack the Lightning adapter provides.

Unless a lightning pair of headphones has their own DAC (like those Audize headphones), that's the signal you're getting. To quote the video
"We're talking very small - scientific - differences between these 2 phones, and if i'm being perfectly honest, the differences are so slight, i doubt most people would be able to hear those differences in a blind taste test"
 

sirap

Member
My point was that it's not like the Andro sounds good out of the Mojo either, or the Leckerton Mk II, or any other number of great 1>OI sources and one would certainly expect it to. Phones like the Andro, EQ-8, SE846 and FIBASS that either exhibit very high senstivity or are susceptible to OI due to crazy crossovers are prettyyyyy rare in the IEM world making them outliers. The vast majority of iems should sound great out of the new 7.

I guess the real test would be how low to mid-priced iems sound on the 7. I'll have to revisit the adapter once I get my hands on the TFZ. The Katana should be an interesting test too, as I found that to be less susceptible to hissing than the Zeus-R. I'm also eager to hear how K10s sound out of the iPhones, since those will be my daily drivers. I love dedicated DAPs, but I can't deny the convenience of Spotify.
 
The thing that really fucks me off is that in this wonderful Lightning/Bluetooth world there is absolutely no way (that is not 3.5mm adapter) for two people to connect headphones to one device. We travel so much with my wife, and love watching films on my iPad Pro with out own headphones.

Someone earlier was suggesting you get an adapter for each pair of headphones and devices you want to hook the audio up to and since it was no big deal he was offering to buy them for you; you should hit him up on that offer.
 
Why haven't the millions of potential buyers noticed this?

Quoting a user from other thread:

So following up on my car experience, I sat down today with my 6s and 7 and some Seinnheiser 280 Pro headphones to do a sound comparison with higher-quality audio. The Seinnheisers aren't quite audiophile-level quality, but I know them well, and they are relatively neutral. I equalized the volume (the 7 needed to actually go up one notch further than the 6s) so there was no perceptual difference due to loudness.

The result is not good. In all cases, the 7 had a loss of lower midrange frequencies, and a loss of the 3D soundstage. Overall all the songs I listened to on the 7 sounded muffled and thin, and most of the soundstage was focused in the center. Brittle and a loss of subtle detail. Listening to the 7 started to hurt my ears after a while the same way that listening to low bitrate mp3s used to do.

Here's a few songs I compared. Everything I listened to was 320 mp3/aac or Apple Lossless files. So, again, not audiophile "oh I won't notice" stuff, but average music files most people have in their library.

David Bowie – Five Years. On the 6s, I could hear the rattle of the opening snare and its satisfying midrange thump typical of early '70s recording style. On the 7 there was only a hint of rattle, and the thump had all the meat cut out of the bottom. Bowie's voice sounds thin and distant on the 7, blending into the other instruments. The lower frequencies of his voice are gone, same with the growling bassline.

Bjork – Like Someone in Love. This was recorded on a rooftop, and in the beginning you can hear kids playing and a big truck driving. The soundstage on the 6s is amazing and I feel like I'm in the middle of that scene, with the garbage truck rumbling through. On the 7 the soundstage is flattened considerably and the lower-end of the truck's growls and hisses are gone. And then there's Bjork's voice, which on the 7 has all the lower-range roundness taken out of it. It just sounds thin.

Led Zeppelin – Ramble On. The soundstage of the intro is fantastic on the 6s, you can pick out the locations of individual instruments, but no surprise, on the 7 it sounds very narrow, hazy, and thin.

Nina Simone – Why Keep On Breaking My Heart. The power of Nina's voice is lessened on the 7, both in force and texture. When the backup singers come in, her voice starts to blend in on the 7, while on the 6s it remains a singular thing. As with every other singer and instrument, there's a slice of lower-end frequencies that are absent in her voice on the 7. The bass also lacks punch.

Sonic Youth – Rats. So much detail lost in this song on the 7, from the punch of Kim Gordon's bass to the crispness of the snare. Then when Thurston's guitar wash comes in, on the 6s it covers the soundstage with subtle textures. On the 7 it's a vague hiss of sound. And when Lee Ranaldo's voice comes in, there's a growl on the 6s which is completely lost on the 7.

I could go on and on with other songs, but the point is, the 7 with the dongle is shit. This is a major step back after the great audio quality on the 6s, and I'd say it's probably the worst the iPhone has ever sounded. I don't know if they purposefully thinned the sound before it even hits the dongle to make it sound better on the earbuds, or if this is a hardware fumble, but the result is that I'm going to have to use a second iPhone when I want to listen to music because the audio quality with the 7 is not acceptable. It remains to be seen if lightning connection headphones also exhibit this problem. The earbuds are just not good enough quality to compare.

I've tried to stay neutral and open-minded on the no headphone jack issue, but after doing these tests I can say Apple really fucked up here. I am not happy.
 

elohel

Member
Quoting a user from other thread:

okay we have a user and two comparisons so far

I'll say it again why hasn't EVERYONE noticed this

Not saying it isn't an issue but every other apple product has had clear "gates" right? so why isn't this a "gate"

that's all I'm asking lol I don't want another post from a user to bash something I'm curious why more don't notice
 

Future

Member
okay we have a user and two comparisons so far

I'll say it again why hasn't EVERYONE noticed this

Not saying it isn't an issue but every other apple product has had clear "gates" right? so why isn't this a "gate"

that's all I'm asking lol I don't want another post from a user to bash something I'm curious why more don't notice

Probably because most people don't have the ear to notice. I think the key point is the courage to dismiss that ancient technology actually lowered the overall quality of the result. More like the courage to gauge what the typical user needs and worsen the product a bit to gain profit
 
okay we have a user and two comparisons so far

I'll say it again why hasn't EVERYONE noticed this

Not saying it isn't an issue but every other apple product has had clear "gates" right? so why isn't this a "gate"

that's all I'm asking lol I don't want another post from a user to bash something I'm curious why more don't notice
well, the quoted poster was listening to audio nerd music while the average person is just playing the songs they like from the billboard hot 100.
 

Jeffrey

Member
i wonder if the 'average guy' will feel the annoyance too.

If lightning adapter or lightning exclusive headphones offer objectively better audio, then there is an argument to be made.

But if more effort is needed to get the same (slightly worse?) audio experience... then its kinda lame.

Maybe this is all for the next phone down the line thats the size of a credit card, but it doesn't seem to save any form factor, and its not like other phone companies haven't figured out waterproofing, big battery and all that jazz in a smaller package than the 7 plus.
 
All of the excuses suck

"It's old" It's a universal standard that has a large ecosystem that works with everything.

"We needed to make room" Just make the phone bigger maybe increase the screen size and battery while you're at it.

"$159 Airpods" You greedy bastards.

This is such a blunder. Not an exploding phone blunder but a blunder nonetheless. This is nothing like getting rid of the disc drive or switching to lightning. I use a single pair of headphones for all my devices all day. What Apple's doing is massively anti-consumer.
 
well, the quoted poster was listening to audio nerd music while the average person is just playing the songs they like from the billboard hot 100.

Lol, hi, as the quoted poster, I wouldn't describe Bowie, Bjork, and Zeppelin as "audio nerd". I just tried to pick songs that had good dynamic range and subtle detail. But you're right, the modern music most people listen to is slammed and auto-tuned to hell, so most people won't notice.

I did a quick test with the lightning earbuds on the 6s and 7, and they're really not good enough quality to make any difference even on those songs. But that doesn't mean that the rest of us should be subjected to worse quality.

The problem with the lightning port is there is no alternative headphones right now to test a non-dongle signal path. I'd really like to know if this is dongle-specific or how the 7 is going to sound no matter what.
 

Tommy DJ

Member
The reason for the quoted user's impressions is very simple (thin, midrange has less weight, less thumpy bass): 4.5 ohms output impedance of the 6S vs below 1 ohm of the adapter.

Refer to Innerfidelity's electrical impedance measurements of the HD280 that the quoted user used. The more output impedance the amp has, the more sub-1khz frequencies get lifted with the peak lift being at 100hz.

It's not a slam dunk "adapter is shit" impression. What it really confirms is that the user has good ears and prefers a downward sloping sound signature.
 

Irminsul

Member
That has more to do with these IEMs being sensitive to OI than anything. I had a similar issue with the Shure SE846. The Andromeda sounds better/more balanced out of an iPhone 6 than it does out of a Chord Mojo for instance. That being said, I'm not sure whether the adapter adds any impedance. The Andro seems to sound best at around 2-3 OI. In any case I think a guy I know can help measure the effect of the adapter.
According to the original test in my OP, the output impedance of the adapter is far lower than the 3.5 mm jack of prior iPhones: 4.5 Ohm vs. 0.37 Ohm @ 1 kHz.
 

Chittagong

Gold Member
Someone earlier was suggesting you get an adapter for each pair of headphones and devices you want to hook the audio up to and since it was no big deal he was offering to buy them for you; you should hit him up on that offer.

I did see that, and I have a 3.5mm splitter now... my point was there is no way of two headphones getting a digital signal. So once 3.5mm is gone, no more sharing
 

borghe

Loves the Greater Toronto Area
adapter has been torn down. confirmed that it has a DAC and amp inside.

so the answer definitely seems to be, if you want high quality analog audio out of the phone over a 1/8" plug, buy a better DAC than the included one. easily available right now with the iPhone camera adapter and a USB DAC. Obviously some companies will sooner than later release lightning DACs, though I can't see that being a good solution for people who are already crying "proprietary!!!". With a USB DAC, the only proprietary link in the chain would be the iPhone Camera adapter.
 

Fliesen

Member
I did see that, and I have a 3.5mm splitter now... my point was there is no way of two headphones getting a digital signal. So once 3.5mm is gone, no more sharing

i'm hoping that eventually bluetooth will offer multi-pairing of sorts.
The UE Boom speakers already allow you to pair two speakers to the same phone (i suppose one speaker 'daisy chains' the audio to the third)

Similarly, there'll be headphones that have an analog audio jack on one of the cups (like the urbanears on-ears had).
Smart headphone manufacturers would simply make the same pair of headphones with a detachable cable, the 'iPhone edition' having a decent DAC built into the cable. the other end being a regular 3.5mm jack, which could be hijacked to attach some kind of splitter.
 

Fliesen

Member
But it was supposed to be a better solution. Which it isn't.

according to whom, though?
lightning and the adapter is for legacy purposes. The future is wireless (according to apple's narrative)

I don't recall Apple making a big fuss about lightning being a "better solution for audio" altogether.

edit: i just rewatched Schiller's part of the keynote.
his 3 points were:
* we got lightning, that's neat and all, people can use that, here's an adapter ... moving on
* we need space in the phone
* WIRELESS IS GREAT! - introducing airpods

edit 2: also, when properly used, lightning can be better, can't it? If you use a DAC that costs more than 30 cents, that is... Those JBL in-ears that allow for customizable noise cancellation looked decent enough. It's just the headphone adapter that comes with the iPhone. That's a slight downgrade, yes. But that's a $9 piece of hardware made by apple. I think that's among the cheapest physical items within the entire apple store. so those are like ... Literally bargain bin components.
 

borghe

Loves the Greater Toronto Area
But it was supposed to be a better solution. Which it isn't.

wireless is the (eventually) better solution. The adapter, and lightning, and continuing to use wires, is just the transitional present.

wireless where connectivity and battery life are non-issues, and sound quality is relatively scalable with price, that is the future.
 

Zutroy

Member
I remember a while ago there was a kickstarter for a slim profile lightning DAC that claimed to greatly increase the audio quality over the 3.5mm jack, and that was before the 7 existed.

If that's the case I'm pretty sure it isn't an issue with the iPhone 7 and instead just a cheap included jack, but it's not something I've been able to tell compared to my iPhone 6.
 

FoxSpirit

Junior Member
aww poor Apple :( A computer mag dropped firsthand knowledge too, but let's defend Aplle!!!
Because they have no clue what 100dB Dynamic Range even means.

That other review is what, one user? And he describes things that are NOT related to a drop from 100dB to 97dB but rather strong intermodulation and a complete change of bass behavior. Maybe because the 6s has almost 5 Ohms of output impredance while the 7 has 0,5 which can change some of the frequency response with some headphones. Oh, and for the better. <1 Ohm is good, 5 Ohm is not.

I mean, I read about the Galaxy S4 sounding a bit flat and my first listening test were... that. Now I am a more experienced listener in regards to my own bias and how to evaluate myself better and can say the S4 sounds perfectly fine.
 

Tommy DJ

Member
But it was supposed to be a better solution. Which it isn't.

In this case, you could easily argue that the adapter is actually better is for the majority of portable headphones on the market.

The decrease in dynamic range is largely meaningless as nothing you actually listen to needs that much dynamic range. Even if you try and argue the case of 24 bit audio files, most of those you find are either worse (as they can't get the original masters) or completely identical to their 16 bit counterparts (see: whole of Van Halen's discography on hdtracks). The decrease in output with high impedance loads is also not terribly meaningful as 1) high impedance headphones aren't too common anymore and 2) mobile phones don't drive existing high impedance headphones particularly well anyway. Heck, the adapter actually produces more output voltage with lower impedance loads which are the majority of headphones these days.

What is beneficial is the large decrease in output impedance from 4.5 ohms to less than 1 ohms. This improves the damping factor and it doesn't screw around with a headphone's sound signature (see: electrical impedance).

The removal of the headphone jack is a huge inconvenience but to suggest the adapter is actually worse in any meaningful way is incorrect. It isn't and in many ways can be argued to be better.
 
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