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I need a new TV for my brand new XSX and upcoming PS5

Chiggs

Gold Member
You won't get the black levels of an OLED in an LCD. In fact, you should never get an LCD if you can get an OLED tv unless you either have a very bright room or are planning on using it as a monitor. Samsung's brightness is nice and all, but the moment you have nighttime scenes in anything, then it's all a grey and washed out experience.

I’m not arguing that LEDs can approach the black levels offered by OLEDs, but saying that everything is grey and washed out is not accurate. There are plenty of LED TVs that offer incredible PQ, including black levels, provided there are enough lighting zones on the panel.
 

Azurro

Member
I’m not arguing that LEDs can approach the black levels offered by OLEDs, but saying that everything is grey and washed out is not accurate. There are plenty of LED TVs that offer incredible PQ, including black levels, provided there are enough lighting zones on the panel.

Sure, LCDs somewhat compensate for this, but the lighting zones in regular LCDs are a bit of a bandaid solution, it doesn't solve the problem, you just have either a halo effect or it still looks washed out because a part of the image has too much detail. Of course, I'd never get an OLED as a work monitor or if I had huge windows with light directly pointing towards the TV. Otherwise, it's OLED, 100% of the time.
 
This thread was over from the first reply. I’m surprised that anyone around long enough to post on neogaf wouldn’t have already scoured rtings before posting.
 

HeisenbergFX4

Gold Member
You won't get the black levels of an OLED in an LCD. In fact, you should never get an LCD if you can get an OLED tv unless you either have a very bright room or are planning on using it as a monitor. Samsung's brightness is nice and all, but the moment you have nighttime scenes in anything, then it's all a grey and washed out experience.
Honestly the QN90A has some nice deep blacks even in brighter scenes but agreed most LCD TVs do not handle dark scenes well
 

Mister Wolf

Member
I’m not arguing that LEDs can approach the black levels offered by OLEDs, but saying that everything is grey and washed out is not accurate. There are plenty of LED TVs that offer incredible PQ, including black levels, provided there are enough lighting zones on the panel.

Yeah a lot of hyperbole. I've owned a C7, C9, and now QN90A. Yes the contrast is better but nothing to write home about.
 

Darklor01

Might need to stop sniffing glue
LG C1

picked one up a few weeks. it’s literally a game changer.
I have to 100% agree. I have one decent LED set five feet behind this one and another in a different room. I’ve done the best I can with settings on either and the contrast and colors… I mean.. I can feel myself more drawn into shows like The Witcher or movies on a deeper level. Games like Ratchet and Clank that are full of vibrant colors just pop more. Then there’s all the other features. Every feature is want from a TV to play games is in the C1. I do with if had a bit more money available for the G1, but I’m happy.
 

Azurro

Member
Yeah a lot of hyperbole. I've owned a C7, C9, and now QN90A. Yes the contrast is better but nothing to write home about.

I exclusively had LED TVs in the past, including the two most recent ones from Samsung before I got my LG CX, I can't remember the models though. Although I was very happy with the brightness, the colors and the resolution, you can't really enjoy horror games or movies because the image just isn't very good. Halo effects or grayed blacks kind spoiled the whole thing. The difference in contrast is huge and immediately noticeable. You go from turning on and off the light in enormous dimming zones to turning light off on a per pixel basis.

It's not like it's a bad TV or anything, but like I said, unless you have a huge source of light hitting your TV and don't use it at night much or you use it as a monitor, there's no reason to get an LCD over an OLED. That's about it really.
 

Mister Wolf

Member
I exclusively had LED TVs in the past, including the two most recent ones from Samsung before I got my LG CX, I can't remember the models though. Although I was very happy with the brightness, the colors and the resolution, you can't really enjoy horror games or movies because the image just isn't very good. Halo effects or grayed blacks kind spoiled the whole thing. The difference in contrast is huge and immediately noticeable. You go from turning on and off the light in enormous dimming zones to turning light off on a per pixel basis.

It's not like it's a bad TV or anything, but like I said, unless you have a huge source of light hitting your TV and don't use it at night much or you use it as a monitor, there's no reason to get an LCD over an OLED. That's about it really.

The only time I would recommend an LCD over an OLED is if you are going to use it as a computer monitor like I do. As far as the blacks go, no Samsung before it is comparable to the Neo QLED in blacks or the amount of dimming zones. The Q90R(2019,2020) had 480 dimming zones. The QN90A(2021) has 792 with the same TV size. Thats a big difference that can't be downplayed. Like OLED, LCD tech is still improving as well.
 
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ParaSeoul

Member
Thanks for all the info, much better to open a Thread here than only rely on reviews, so many details are not coming out and missed.
CES 2022 is coming next year, I think in Las Vegas, from January 5 through January 8.
Hopefully we’ll see some "cutting-edge" TV technology from LG, Samsung and Sony. From all the info I got here, it seems wiser to wait for the new models and then make a decision !
You'll never get them for the price of last years models straight off the bat. The mentality of waiting for something better might not be worth it especially if you need a tv now.
 

Fredrik

Gold Member
I’ve never had any issues with black areas not being black on my old Bravia XE9305 LCD.

Might not be pitch dark but it’s dark enough 🤷‍♂️
 

rofif

Gold Member
Just lg c1.
my eyes masturbate to it everyday.
one note - you will be using film grain because otherwise there is quite a lot of banding
 
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Vasto

Member
Doesn't mean they're bad for HDR,an OLED has won his Best TV of the Year award since like 2017.


There not bad in HDR but they cant match a QLED same as a QLED is not bad in black levels but they cant match and OLED. HDR is about Nits ( brightness ). That is what he is explaining in the video. Do you want pixel perfect blacks from OLED or do you want a bright vibrant colorful picture from QLED. I like QLED because you can get a good QLED that has deep blacks but you cant get a OLED that pushes 1000, 1500 or 2000 nits of brightness.

I have a 2019 Vizio that got a 9.8 from RTINGS in Black Uniformity. The blacks are so good that TV looks like its not even on at times. QLED fault is that you will have to deal with some blooming and OLEDs fault is that you are going to have to deal with an aggressive ABL ( Auto Brightness Limiter ) that keeps the picture dim so the pixels dont burn but most reviewers wont tell you this. Never buy anything because it won an award, you have to deep dive and do research on TVs now. Gone are the days of just going into Walmart and getting that Toshiba because its a good brand name.

This article is gold and explains the pros and cons of both.


RTINGS Pros and Cons




RTINGS on Color




RTINGS on HDR

 
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RoboFu

One of the green rats
You didn’t say what size. I can’t go below 65” so that would limit your selection in your price range.
 

Mister Wolf

Member
There not bad in HDR but they cant match a QLED same as a QLED is not bad in black levels but they cant match and OLED. HDR is about Nits ( brightness ). That is what he is explaining in the video. Do you want pixel perfect blacks from OLED or do you want a bright vibrant colorful picture from QLED. I like QLED because you can get a good QLED that has deep blacks but you cant get a OLED that pushes 1000, 1500 or 2000 nits of brightness.

I have a 2019 Vizio that got a 9.8 from RTINGS in Black Uniformity. The blacks are so good that TV looks like its not even on at times. QLED fault is that you will have to deal with some blooming and OLEDs fault is that you are going to have to deal with an aggressive ABL ( Auto Brightness Limiter ) that keeps the picture dim so the pixels doing burn but most reviewers wont tell you this. Never buy anything because it won an award, you have to deep dive and do research on TVs now. Gone are the days of just going into Walmart and getting that Toshiba because its a good brand name.

This article is gold and explains the pros and cons of both.


RTINGS Pros and Cons




RTINGS on Color




RTINGS on HDR


Great post. The hyperbole over OLED amazes me. This is from a respected website that's stringently tested hundreds of TVs with the same barometers.
 
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Caio

Member
You'll never get them for the price of last years models straight off the bat. The mentality of waiting for something better might not be worth it especially if you need a tv now.
I need a LG C1 with the "VRR issue" totally fixed, otherwise I would have bought the 55" now. I can't spend 1300 euro knowing my new brand TV has VRR issues...it's my habit. But generally I understand your point, and I'm with you.
 

ethomaz

Banned
There not bad in HDR but they cant match a QLED same as a QLED is not bad in black levels but they cant match and OLED. HDR is about Nits ( brightness ). That is what he is explaining in the video. Do you want pixel perfect blacks from OLED or do you want a bright vibrant colorful picture from QLED. I like QLED because you can get a good QLED that has deep blacks but you cant get a OLED that pushes 1000, 1500 or 2000 nits of brightness.

I have a 2019 Vizio that got a 9.8 from RTINGS in Black Uniformity. The blacks are so good that TV looks like its not even on at times. QLED fault is that you will have to deal with some blooming and OLEDs fault is that you are going to have to deal with an aggressive ABL ( Auto Brightness Limiter ) that keeps the picture dim so the pixels doing burn but most reviewers wont tell you this. Never buy anything because it won an award, you have to deep dive and do research on TVs now. Gone are the days of just going into Walmart and getting that Toshiba because its a good brand name.

This article is gold and explains the pros and cons of both.


RTINGS Pros and Cons




RTINGS on Color




RTINGS on HDR

It is heir because RTings gives higher scores to OLED than QLED for HDR in their reviews.

For exemple:

C1
HDR Movie: 8.6
HDR Gaming: 9.0

QN90A
HDR Movie: 8.5
HDM Gaming: 8.8

Seems like peak brightness is not a definitive factor for HDR.

BTW the view angle being so bad in LCDs is a way bigger downside than peak brightness for me.
 

ethomaz

Banned
I need a LG C1 with the "VRR issue" totally fixed, otherwise I would have bought the 55" now. I can't spend 1300 euro knowing my new brand TV has VRR issues...it's my habit. But generally I understand your point, and I'm with you.
All TVs in the market has VRR issues.
Maybe in some years they get there but the implementation are still somehow immature.
 

Mister Wolf

Member
It is heir because RTings gives higher scores to OLED than QLED for HDR in their reviews.

For exemple:

C1
HDR Movie: 8.6
HDR Gaming: 9.0

QN90A
HDR Movie: 8.5
HDM Gaming: 8.8

Seems like peak brightness is not a definitive factor for HDR.

BTW the view angle being so bad in LCDs is a way bigger downside than peak brightness for me.

LG C1 OLED Review (OLED48C1PUB, OLED55C1PUB, OLED65C1PUB, OLED77C1PUB, OLED83C1PUA) - RTINGS.com


I would like to fully understand how their reviews work. The C1 scored a 6.7 in SDR brightness with them saying this:

"This TV has okay peak brightness in SDR. Scenes with small bright areas can get extremely bright, but it struggles with large bright areas, like the ice when watching hockey. Because of this aggressive automatic brightness limiter (ABL), visibility can be an issue with certain content."

and a 6.8 in HDR brightness with them saying this:

"HDR brightness is okay. As you can see in the EOTF, the overall brightness is on-target, but it may not be bright enough to hit the brightest highlights. The ABL is very aggressive in HDR, which accounts for the variation in brightness and why it gets so dim with scenes that have large areas of brightness. It was especially noticeable and distracting when connected to our PC, as it dimmed any windows that were left open within minutes. Differences in brightness between this and the LG CX OLED may simply come down to panel variation. If you want something that has the new evo panel and gets brighter, then check out the LG G1 OLED."

How do you go from those scores and that written critic to a 9.0 for HDR gaming?
 

Vasto

Member
It is heir because RTings gives higher scores to OLED than QLED for HDR in their reviews.

For exemple:

C1
HDR Movie: 8.6
HDR Gaming: 9.0

QN90A
HDR Movie: 8.5
HDM Gaming: 8.8

Seems like peak brightness is not a definitive factor for HDR.

BTW the view angle being so bad in LCDs is a way bigger downside than peak brightness for me.


I can show you what I am talking about. This is a person that I follow on YouTube from when I got my 2019 Vizio because he also got the same TV I did. He has since upgraded to the 2020 Vizio P Quantum X that does 2000 nits of brightness and he also has an LG CX OLED. I hate I choose that X900H over that Vizio PQX because that TV is a beast and now you cant find it anymore.

 
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ethomaz

Banned
LG C1 OLED Review (OLED48C1PUB, OLED55C1PUB, OLED65C1PUB, OLED77C1PUB, OLED83C1PUA) - RTINGS.com

How do you go from those scores and that written critic to a 9.0 for HDR gaming?
Becacuse brightness is not the weight factor in SDR or HDR quality.
Probably the HDR IQ is still better on OLED.

BTW they did show how brightness weight in the score (click in the interrogation): 8% of the score is due the Brightness.
From 10 scale that is only 0.8... 6.7 brightness is around 0.7 (if they round up) points in the score for C1.
 
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rofif

Gold Member
wtf is wrong with oled brightness?
Do You people play with blinders open?
I game at evening or night and the hdr is blindingly bright when you exit a cave in uncharted.
I might have other complaints maybe but brightness is not a problem at all.

The HDR goal is not to recreate a flower in the sun that is 2000 nits... it;s about better contrast.
 

ethomaz

Banned
wtf is wrong with oled brightness?
Do You people play with blinders open?
I game at evening or night and the hdr is blindingly bright when you exit a cave in uncharted.
I might have other complaints maybe but brightness is not a problem at all.

The HDR goal is not to recreate a flower in the sun that is 2000 nits... it;s about better contrast.
There is nothing wrong with brightness in OLEDs.. it just lower than what you see in LCDs.
In any case most calibrations doesn't even use peak brightness in OLEDs because even in HDR it not really needed.

But of course it is good to have the option to go bright... so I hope future OLED have better peak brightness (seems like some panels already reaches 1000 nits).
 
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Mister Wolf

Member
wtf is wrong with oled brightness?
Do You people play with blinders open?
I game at evening or night and the hdr is blindingly bright when you exit a cave in uncharted.
I might have other complaints maybe but brightness is not a problem at all.

The HDR goal is not to recreate a flower in the sun that is 2000 nits... it;s about better contrast.

Its not about the flower in the sun but displaying the sun itself, or any other thing that is vibrant. Tetris Effect in HDR or even SDR would be a perfect example. You can say that's not a big deal and thats the same thing us LCD owners say when contrast is brought up.
 
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Darklor01

Might need to stop sniffing glue
There is nothing wrong with brightness in OLEDs.. it just lower than what you see in LCDs.
In any case most calibrations doesn't even use peak brightness in OLEDs because even in HDR it not really needed.

But of course it is good to have the option to go bright... so I hope future OLED have better peak brightness (seems like some panels already reaches 1000 nits).
The LG G1 and more upcoming models with the EVO panel have a higher peak brightness. The goal is not simply the higher brightness, it is the accuracy in recreating the proper separation between the light and the dark. The OLED panels already have perfect blacks because the pixels turn completely off for black. The LCD/LED panels don't do that. They rely on dimming zones. Currently what the LCD/LED panels do better is achieving that light/dark separation for better accuracy in depicting the delta between the lights and how they should be displayed vs. what the set is capable of and the everything else the light touches/obscures..etc. That delta currently can't be done accurately on OLED, but it is getting there. By the same note, it can't be done accurately by LCD/LED either because they can't do perfect blacks.

Having had some great sets of both types now, and I have love for high end sets on both sides, I can say I'd prefer the OLED, though that burn in fear is a real thing even with the tools in place to mitigate them.
 

Darklor01

Might need to stop sniffing glue
That and the knowlegde that OLEDs get dimmer over time... 👀
Yeah, but, I'd be more worried about the burn-in risk.

OLED TVs have been claimed to last about 100,000 hours! That equals a lifespan of about 54 years, with an average daily usage of 5 hours. I suppose, the issue in calculating when to expect the dimming to begin would be that A) It would depend on the content being displayed and the settings enabled each viewing because the more wattage used to self light the pixels, the more degrading could be expected. B) I suppose we also don't know what calculations are used by LG to claim a 100,000 hour life for an OLED panel and what they consider to be end of life for a panel. Would it be a certain level of bright/dim, would it be panel death outright?..etc.

I can't find results for testing that calculate how long before the affect begins to happen, or people providing proof of when it has occurred for them and what sets the results apply to.
Let's say, that if a panel could last 54 years, I'm not all that concerned since I don't plan on keeping a TV operating for even half that. I also don't expect that their business relies on people doing that either if they want to continue to sell sets. It has also been a few years that OLED sales have been good at this point and they are increasing. If this were too much of an issue, I'd imagine a decline in popularity due to quality issues being known.
 

Caio

Member
All TVs in the market has VRR issues.
Maybe in some years they get there but the implementation are still somehow immature.
So most probably the issues with VRR are not gonna be fixed with the next Model ?? Holy shit :D
I'll wait anyway the CES, then I will take my decision ;)
 

Mister Wolf

Member
So most probably the issues with VRR are not gonna be fixed with the next Model ?? Holy shit :D
I'll wait anyway the CES, then I will take my decision ;)

Keep in mind that people like to exaggerate issues. Look at the ratings for vrr at Rtings.com on the LG and Samsung TVs. Its generally only an issue for the most petty of individuals. That goes for vrr, contrast, peak brightness, and everything else. You can't go wrong with either a top end Samsung or LG.
 
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Azurro

Member
The only time I would recommend an LCD over an OLED is if you are going to use it as a computer monitor like I do. As far as the blacks go, no Samsung before it is comparable to the Neo QLED in blacks or the amount of dimming zones. The Q90R(2019,2020) had 480 dimming zones. The QN90A(2021) has 792 with the same TV size. Thats a big difference that can't be downplayed. Like OLED, LCD tech is still improving as well.

I mean, that's good, LCD screens have improved, it's obvious, but you can't compare 792 dimming zones with 8294400 dimming zones, since each pixel can turn on and off individually. The thing is, the You lose detail in dark scenes, when you put scenes of the night sky with stars, on an LED you literally don't see most of the stars.

I mean, I'm not a TV expert or anything, but I do think it's kind of weird that people are recommending him an LCD when an OLED produces a better image unless he has some very specific circumstances.
 

Darklor01

Might need to stop sniffing glue
I have a LG CX and it has gamma issues with VRR enabled.
The RTings just tested if the feature proper works... they didn't talk about the different color gamma when VRR is used.
No disagreement there if there is a noted issue with color gamma when VRR is used on those sets. Do you have a source article or discussion link that discusses this issue and is dated after the most recent testing done by RTINGS?
 

Caio

Member
Keep in mind that people like to exaggerate issues. Look at the ratings for vrr at Rtings.com on the LG and Samsung TVs. Its generally only an issue for the most petty of individuals. That goes for vrr, contrast, peak brightness, and everything else. You can't go wrong with either a top end Samsung or LG.
If it was an "exageration" plus it has been fixed with the latest update, I might buy now the LG C1.
 

Bramble

Member
Some people in this thread seem to forget that OLED, despite the lower nits it can display, get's a lot more "pop" with bright highlights and darker backgrounds because of the infinite contrast. In other words: a lot of HDR scenses look better on an OLED than on a LED, pure because there is much more contrast between light and dark.
 

JohnnyFootball

GerAlt-Right. Ciriously.
LG C1 get it or regret it.
In the past I’d recommend Sony over Samsung but until their TVs support VRR without issue, I’d stay away. NEVER EVER buy a TV on features that will be enabled via firmware.
I got lucky with my C9 in that I can take advantage of HDMI 2.1 without issue.
 

JohnnyFootball

GerAlt-Right. Ciriously.
Some people in this thread seem to forget that OLED, despite the lower nits it can display, get's a lot more "pop" with bright highlights and darker backgrounds because of the infinite contrast. In other words: a lot of HDR scenses look better on an OLED than on a LED, pure because there is much more contrast between light and dark.
This is 100% true. Many “blind” tests have people picking OLED due to perceived brightness from infinite contrast. Brighter doesn’t automatically make an image better but contrast will always work.
 

Fredrik

Gold Member
I can show you what I am talking about. This is a person that I follow on YouTube from when I got my 2019 Vizio because he also got the same TV I did. He has since upgraded to the 2020 Vizio P Quantum X that does 2000 nits of brightness and he also has an LG CX OLED. I hate I choose that X900H over that Vizio PQX because that TV is a beast and now you cant find it anymore.

I watched through that whole video. Those side-by-side comparisons is something else, OLED looks really dim there, he lower the brightness on the QLED to 20 to match the OLED. Might be a trick though idk. I think I need to compare myself before choosing what to buy.
 
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ParaSeoul

Member
So most probably the issues with VRR are not gonna be fixed with the next Model ?? Holy shit :D
I'll wait anyway the CES, then I will take my decision ;)
They were supposed to fix it with the C1 but they just added a gamma adjustment tool to try and work around it,issue is still there. To be fair you have so many VRR fans here you just have to take their word for it
 

nemiroff

Gold Member
Be aware that on gaf there seems to be an authoritarian bias towards anything OLED. In my opinion this shouldn't be about a narrow band of specifications but about using the correct tool for your need, and some people doesn't have the same needs as others. Everyone is different (including different age and eye sight) and has different living conditions. I mean, there are many different pros and cons for each type of technology and processing which suits different things. I for one would rather go with a good or high end Samsung QLED-type TV over an OLED right now because they tend to have everything you need for most scenarios, especially the power to be able to watch during direct sunlight (here in Norway we have sunlight 24/7 during summers, and with tons of windows in the house an OLED TV would not be as useable). Also in my opinion they are often better suited for gaming. But again that's just me, continue to check out many different angles before deciding.
 
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HeisenbergFX4

Gold Member
Be aware that on gaf there seems to be an authoritarian bias towards anything OLED. In my opinion this is all about using the correct tool for your need, and some people doesn't have the same needs as others. Everyone is different (including different age and eye sight) and has different living conditions. I mean, there are many different pros and cons for each type of technology and processing which suits different things. I for one would rather go with a good or high end Samsung QLED-type TV over an OLED right now because they tend to have everything you need for most scenarios, especially the power to be able to watch during direct sunlight (here in Norway we have sunlight 24/7 during summers, and with tons of windows in the house an OLED TV would not be as useable). Also in my opinion they are often better suited for gaming. But again that's just me, continue to check out many different angles before deciding.
OLED is gorgeous especially in the right conditions

I mentioned this in another thread but I had a Predator X35 that was killed by severe weather and decided to try a 48" C1 in its place and while the OLED can be stunning at times I am going to eventually go back to a brighter display.

I picked up the QN90a as an open box buy and honestly quite thrilled with it for big screen gaming as it has a lot more punch in HDR vs my 77" C9
 

Vasto

Member
I watched through that whole video. Those side-by-side comparisons is something else, OLED looks really dim there, he lower the brightness on the QLED to 20 to match the OLED. Might be a trick though idk. I think I need to compare myself before choosing what to buy.


He has alot of videos talking about it because he did not find out how much it mattered until he got a bright QLED. I also found out 1st hand how much brightness matters.

My Vizio M8 is about 500nits but it has outstanding contrast 9.4, black levels 9.8 and color gamut 8.9. Some of the highest ratings on RTINGS for any LCD, love that TV and still using it today. The next year I got the X900H which is about 750 nits but not rated as high as the Vizio in contrast 8.6, black levels 8.7 and color gamut 7.9. Guess which one looked the best when I had them side by side? The Sony looked better because it was brighter and the image just had more pop. It had better HDR and the colors were more vibrant.
 
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