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[Ninja-Matic]

Well I'm glad they fixed the INPUT LAG and left they weighty controls in. BC2 controls nice My fave so far - including the control scheme... never thought to put crouch on R3 but it works so damn well :lol :lol

 

[KZObsessed]

It was seriously nothing more than spray-and-pray garbage, the person that had the luckiest spray wins. Controlling the cursor felt like I was ice skating and I had very little control of my movements.

Can't believe what I'm reading here.

 

[AAK]

http://www.builtfit.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/barbell-weight.jpg[IMG]

[IMG]http://www.tgnobby.com/ballog/images/ducttape.jpg[IMG]

[IMG]http://ps3media.gamespy.com/ps3/image/article/107/1076661/playstation-move-20100311024352787_640w.jpg[IMG][/QUOTE]

Genius :lol

 

[alr1ght]

Can't believe what I'm reading here.

c'mon real guns stay locked onto targets and have no recoil at all.

 

[Redbeard]

Can't believe what I'm reading here.

Bow to your Guerrilla masters and just come to the same realization they did - KZ2 controls were abysmal and needed real fixing.

Here's the two options facing Guerrilla:

1. Keep the controls the same and 90% of your potential audience won't play an otherwise great game because of the controls.

2. Change the controls, the hardcore KZ2 lovers will eat it up anyway, and you'll get a much larger audience that would appreciate your game.

Option 2 is a win-win, and it will make the game better overall. No one played KZ2 for the controls, what a joke, people played it IN SPITE of the controls. Even if they make the controls exactly like CoD, who cares? KZ2 is fun not because of the controls but because of the gameplay...MP was fun because of the well designed maps, rotating objectives, and the class system. Having CoD controls would be better than having KZ2 controls.

 

[Ninja-Matic]

c'mon real guns stay locked onto targets and have no recoil at all.

I'm not sure if you guys are understanding the issue - there was HORRID input lag - the weight was fine.

If you moved the analog stick - there was "dead air" for a few HUNDRED milliseconds. That's not weight. That means NO ACTIONS occurred for a brief period of time when you were telling the game to perform an action. That is INPUT DELAY. Not to be confused with "weight".

I admit taking out the recoil (from the videos of KZ3 we've seen) is a bit of a misstep as I never had issues with recoil - it's something you just need to learn how to control. BUT - removing the input lag was key to a smooth experience.

GG admitted to there being LAG. They flat-out admitted an issue. What the die-hards are suggesting is that GG falsely admitted there being an issue that wasn't - but actually IS.

GG devs in a video interview stated before KZ2's launch "We're outputting a full 720p image, no tricks there". Yet the game, at times hit in the 550's (thanks to DF for finding it out). They claimed a locked framerate of 30 (but dipped into the teens quite a bit, albeit spikes). They're not going back on those statements - so why would they go back on something like this?

The entire idea of a peripheral used for gaming is to help the player perform actions in a game in an efficient manner so that the player can execute what he is thinking. Things like weight, recoil, reload time, etc - are non peripheral or input related and must be taken into consideration by the player when performing actions.

INPUT LAG prevents the user from executing his thoughts efficiently - often leaving the player to wrestle with the input peripheral during a gameplay experience.

Anyone with half a brain can understand that INPUT LAG does NOT equal WEIGHT. When I pick up a heavy object and want to move it - my body DOES NOT PAUSE before moving it. If the weight is heavy enough - my body begins to move the object and gradually pick up speed as INERTIA sets in.

The pre "High Precision" controls had no intertia or acceleration or it was BARELY noticeable - you were at a dead stop - then moved at almost full speed ahead after a PAUSE of NOTHING after moving the input. That's not how weight works, :lol :lol :lol

You don't go from dead stop to balls to the wall movement.

The "High Precision" patch centered the dead zone more appropriately and added some insane inertia - so that you do not just JERK your weapon into movement - but the starting acceleration is barely noticed from a dead stop - giving the PERCEIVED notion of "weight" - even though the same amount of lag was STILL present (DF again for testing motion).

Now - while die-hards are bickering about INPUT LAG calling it "weight" (hahahahaha) - the MENU SYSTEM had the same amount of INPUT LAG present when selecting items on a menu.

Does that mean GG wanted to add "weight" to the menu? PFFFFFFFFT

"BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT - The 400ms of no movement is WEIGHT!! NOT LAG!"

In that case - every HDTV with horrendous video lag could use the guise of "we're just adding weight to your game!"

The thought of "weight" from an obviously, ADMITTEDLY (by GG) broken input system being WEIGHT, is laughable, at best and truly shows the lengths at which KZ diehards will go to defend their game.

Epitome of blindness.

 

[X-Frame]

This reminds me of the Demo days all over again Ninja.

 

[alr1ght]

High Precision reduced the dead zone of the sticks. The 150ms lag is comparable to other 30fps games, so your 400ms figure is laughable.

 

[KZObsessed]

Option 2 is a win-win, and it will make the game better overall. No one played KZ2 for the controls, what a joke, people played it IN SPITE of the controls. Even if they make the controls exactly like CoD, who cares? KZ2 is fun not because of the controls but because of the gameplay...MP was fun because of the well designed maps, rotating objectives, and the class system. Having CoD controls would be better than having KZ2 controls.

KZ2 is fun for many reasons, yeah maps, rotating objectives, class system but you seem to be forgetting the most important aspect of the gameplay of any FPS... err the gunplay. And the controls are a part of that, as are the shooting mechaincs themselves, the recoil, spread which are unique to each weapon, the way they animate, the sound effects, the impact of the bullets, the death animations, the relative lack of auto-aim when compared to many other shooters, the challenge and therefore satisfaction of the kills, the chirp etc etc. It doesn't matter how good the maps are, or how well the rotating objectives keep things fresh if you don't like the way the guns feel to shoot, which is down to both the mechanics and the controls then you're not gonna play a shooter for hundreds/thousands of hours which many people did.

To say no one played KZ2 for the way the shooting felt is ignorant, obnoxious and down right foolish.

 

[Ninja-Matic]

High Precision reduced the dead zone of the sticks. The 150ms lag is comparable to other 30fps games, so your 400ms figure is laughable.

Digital Foundry is laughable? News to me.

150ms lag is not "comparable" to anything. That's called "borderline insane".

The average lag of an LCD is roughly 50ms. That's 50ms from input - to output - LESS THAN 2 frames at 33.3ms per frame @30. The best I've seen reviewed is around 15ms give or take a few. That's 15ms from input to output. That means 15ms from moving the analog stick to you moving on screen.

Again - basing my findings off of actual article written by actual techs who just test small bullshit like this instead of pulling "150ms lag" out of my ass. :lol :lol :lol :lol

I'd rather read actual technical comparisons, reviews, tests, etc and report what I read there instead of just BS, alr1ght. I'm not pulling numbers out of my ass and neither does DF. You, on the other hand, apparently are. :|

Unimpressed.

 

[Ninja-Matic]

To say no one played KZ2 for the way the shooting felt is ignorant, obnoxious and down right foolish.

I agree with this. I was not happy with the controls and neither were my friends - but we played the hell out of it. Not as long as some tho. As other games released we forgot all about it.

 

[.GqueB.]

Bow to your Guerrilla masters and just come to the same realization they did - KZ2 controls were abysmal and needed real fixing.

Here's the two options facing Guerrilla:

1. Keep the controls the same and 90% of your potential audience won't play an otherwise great game because of the controls.

2. Change the controls, the hardcore KZ2 lovers will eat it up anyway, and you'll get a much larger audience that would appreciate your game.

Option 2 is a win-win, and it will make the game better overall. No one played KZ2 for the controls, what a joke, people played it IN SPITE of the controls. Even if they make the controls exactly like CoD, who cares? KZ2 is fun not because of the controls but because of the gameplay...MP was fun because of the well designed maps, rotating objectives, and the class system. Having CoD controls would be better than having KZ2 controls.

I was always on the fence about the controls. I could respect the fact that it was "different" because I personally find the lack of recoil, roller skate controls in COD kind of funny and a bit too easy (me going 21 and 1 in any fps game doesnt make sense, I suck at these games).

But at the same time, the "different" in KZ2 made no sense. Everyone always said weight weight weight but how does making it harder to shoot when aiming down the sights supposed to simulate weight. Why did turning take so long. Was gravity different? Am I carrying a bazooka? And watching two people engage in close quarter combat was just laughable. The definition of bumbling. In a sense, I rarely actually felt in control of my character. It was sort of detached and I constantly had this feeling.

Now as I said, I was on the fence. Despite my gripes, I did have a lot of fun with the game and while the controls got in the way at times I did manage. But the only reason I can speak out against the controls is because of the fact that I didnt understand them. None of it really made sense and I couldnt understand why they did what they did. So if they achieve something in between COD and KZ2 I'll be happy. Otherwise Im not sure Im willing to dive in again.

 

[Redbeard]

KZ2 is fun for many reasons, yeah maps, rotating objectives, class system but you seem to be forgetting the most important aspect of the gameplay of any FPS... err the gunplay. And the controls are a part of that, as are the shooting mechaincs themselves, the recoil, spread which are unique to each weapon, the way they animate, the sound effects, the impact of the bullets, the death animations, the relative lack of auto-aim when compared to many other shooters, the challenge and therefore satisfaction of the kills, the chirp etc etc. It doesn't matter how good the maps are, or how well the rotating objectives keep things fresh if you don't like the way the guns feel to shoot, which is down to both the mechanics and the controls then you're not gonna play a shooter for hundreds/thousands of hours which many people did.

To say no one played KZ2 for the way the shooting felt is ignorant, obnoxious and down right foolish.

I said no one played KZ2 for the way it controlled, not the way the shooting felt. There's a difference.

The animations, spread, etc, were not the issue with KZ2's controls. The issue was the responsiveness of the controls. They felt all over the place. No one played the game because of that. That was the worst part of KZ2.

People put up with that garbage to actually have fun with the rest of the package.

Gunplay is important. Being able to actually aim responsively is also important. The two are not the same.

I DID NOT feel in control of my character in KZ2 like I do other shooters, and that's a HUGE issue. It is simply not fun to play because of this reason alone.

 

[alr1ght]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-lag-factor-article

* The lowest latencies a video game can have is 50ms (three frames) - the PS3 XMB runs at this rate, but few games reach it.
* Most 60FPS games have a 66.67ms latency - Ridge Racer 7, for example.
* 30FPS games have a minimum potential lag of 100ms, but many exceed this.
* Game developers should test their own games using the camera technique in order to weed out bugs - West says that Heavenly Sword's response slows down to 300ms just by turning the character, and reckons it's a technical issue that should have been resolved before going gold with the game.
* Citing GTAIV as an example, West suggests that a 166ms response is where gamers notice controller lag, which could also explain the Killzone 2 furore too.
* Game reviewers should accurately measure latency for their reviews where controller lag is an issue, in the hope that sloppy game response times come under far more scrutiny.

Based on this video, we see that the lag in the fully patched Killzone 2 is 12 frames. Factor out the three frames of lag in the display itself and we're left with a 150ms "ping" between gamer and on-screen action. Now, many people have complained about the unresponsive nature of the controls in Guerrilla Games' epic to the point where the game was patched (this is captured from the latest code by the way), though based on my experiences I believe the analogue "dead zone" on the sticks was the main focus of the tweaks.

okay

 

[KZObsessed]

I said no one played KZ2 for the way it controlled, not the way the shooting felt. There's a difference.

The animations, spread, etc, were not the issue with KZ2's controls. The issue was the responsiveness of the controls. They felt all over the place. No one played the game because of that. That was the worst part of KZ2.

People put up with that garbage to actually have fun with the rest of the package.

Gunplay is important. Being able to actually aim responsively is also important. The two are not the same.

I DID NOT feel in control of my character in KZ2 like I do other shooters, and that's a HUGE issue. It is simply not fun to play because of this reason alone.

Well, seeing as you didn't even mention the gunplay originally and were acting as if controls were the only aspect of the shooting what do you expect. I know the two are not the same I just stated as much. You talked about having to "pray and spray" and hope you get lucky, everyone who's played KZ2 knows that if you spray, you'll miss and then die unless the other guy is just as shit as you are. So that was utter garbage.

Have you played with high precision controls? There's no major issue with responsiveness, ok it's still no where near a twitch shooter (thank god) or even a CoD but you can line up and headshot easily when down the sights. You can easily get 20-30 headshots a game on a good day like that. It's responsive and accurate. I don't understand how people can claim to have such issues with it. Maybe with the original controls but not after th patch. People keep falling back on the input lag aspect, but in fact the deadzone was a much bigger problem when trying to aim down the sights, which was fixed

 

[TacticalFox88]

GG just needs to make Alt 2 control scheme standard.

 

[.GqueB.]

I was always on the fence about the controls. I could respect the fact that it was "different" because I personally find the lack of recoil, roller skate controls in COD kind of funny and a bit too easy (me going 21 and 1 in any fps game doesnt make sense, I suck at these games).

But at the same time, the "different" in KZ2 made no sense. Everyone always said weight weight weight but how does making it harder to shoot when aiming down the sights supposed to simulate weight. Why did turning take so long. Was gravity different? Am I carrying a bazooka? And watching two people engage in close quarter combat was just laughable. The definition of bumbling. In a sense, I rarely actually felt in control of my character. It was sort of detached and I constantly had this feeling.

Now as I said, I was on the fence. Despite my gripes, I did have a lot of fun with the game and while the controls got in the way at times I did manage. But the only reason I can speak out against the controls is because of the fact that I didnt understand them. None of it really made sense and I couldnt understand why they did what they did. So if they achieve something in between COD and KZ2 I'll be happy. Otherwise Im not sure Im willing to dive in again.

I said no one played KZ2 for the way it controlled, not the way the shooting felt. There's a difference.

The animations, spread, etc, were not the issue with KZ2's controls. The issue was the responsiveness of the controls. They felt all over the place. No one played the game because of that. That was the worst part of KZ2.

People put up with that garbage to actually have fun with the rest of the package.

Gunplay is important. Being able to actually aim responsively is also important. The two are not the same.

I DID NOT feel in control of my character in KZ2 like I do other shooters, and that's a HUGE issue. It is simply not fun to play because of this reason alone.

 

[Stillmatic]

KZ2 is like the old school days where you had to learn how to play a game, rather than games of today, where we rely on games controlling similarly across a genre. High precision was a step in the noob friendly direction for those that complained. But, even if GG enabled fully customisable controls for KZ3, i'm sure there'll still be people moaning because their preferred settings aren't standard, or something.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

GG just needs to make Alt 2 control scheme standard.

Alt 2 was best without cover for MP. In SP the default was the way to go.

I can live with BC2-esque controls as just as long as it is not camera on ice with super auto aim like COD. Actually please let me turn of auto-aim like in BC2, that is fantastical.

 

[Rikyfree]

Alt 2 was best without cover for MP. In SP the default was the way to go.

I can live with BC2-esque controls as just as long as it is not camera on ice with super auto aim like COD. Actually please let me turn of auto-aim like in BC2, that is fantastical.

I can see alt 2 being standard if they allow a toggle cover in SP.

 

[Ninja-Matic]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-lag-factor-article



okay

12 frames = 360ms
3 frames video = 99ms

Total of 459ms.
Factor out 3 frames and you're left with 261ms

Where that article got 150ms in it's error-riddled text is beyond me at 33.3ms/30

As stated - the average TV is 50ms (1.5 frames roughly, NOT 3 like EuroGamer states which is HORRID 99.9ms lag) which leaves the number floating at 310. That video shows post-pach. Since times were increased before patch - that leaves the 400sm average DF found to be true. I've seen tests showing analog stick movement clocked at 2 frames on a 20ms plasma. That's roughly 46~47ms game lag. Not 150.

So... now are we saying that SHOOTING is supposed to have "weight" HAHAHAHAHA.

KZ die-hards are being destroyed by their own arguments - proof that there was INPUT LAG, not weight can be found EVERYWHERE, not just moving :lol :lol :lol

This puts the nail in the coffin for "BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT ITS WEIGHT" fanboys. It's not.

End of line.

 

[cakefoo]

Input latency is no longer the issue anymore. Firing, navigating the menus, turning etc shaved 2 frames (on a 30fps camera, so it shaved ~66ms from an initial ~165ms) off their original response times and is, to me, an original critic, much more acceptable for a competitive multiplayer fps. The core input latency is comparable to Uncharted and Resistance 2 now, two games I tested the fire buttons to feel perceivably instant.

The thing that could still use some tweaking in KZ2 is the behavior of the turn acceleration/deceleration. Taking into account the 3-frame input lag, turn acceleration takes several frames to creep up to full speed. Decelerating, however, occurs INSTANTLY (and by instantly I mean of course after 3 frames of pure input latency with no progressive deceleration). These inconsistent physics could explain why many people lose control in CQC situations.

 

[duckroll]

Okay. A few things:

A) Stop updating a megathread with news. We are moving away from this, please roll with the new policy. This thread is 50 pages longer than it needs to be. Make new threads for interviews, trailers, new previews, etc.

B) Cut down on the trash talking, on both sides. This is a video game, not a national sport where you're cheering your national team on. I don't see why we need to be using words like "cunts" or mocking "fanboys." At the same time, I don't think people should be too butthurt when there are valid criticisms being presented. Complains about "trolling" will be ignored in future unless there is a valid point.