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Media Create Sales: 1/1 - 1/7

ethelred

Member
LanceStern said:
The point is the head-figures are calling them non-games.

And even though it's a touch term I won't use anymore, it still solidifies that the list I made shows the type of "games" those games are. For all the people saying they ARE games, Nintendo heads themselves say they aren't, so you're going to have to find another small, minute, pointless detail to exploit out of an argument to avoid the real message

Bill Trinen is a great guy, but he's not the head of Nintendo and he's not someone I'd consider an authority on what is and isn't a game. And you left out the one line there that shows that it wasn't Iwata, but Bill Trinen that used the term.

11:01: Introduces Bill Trinen (NOA).

11:02: Showing a DS playing Brain Age. Described by him as...

When Iwata got back:

11:12: Iwata takes back the mic and talks about the simple but addictive appeal of Brain Age. Calls the title one of the company's biggest successes. The development came from the idea that people wanted something new. The only real way to demonstrate the appeal of these games is to let people try them -- found that consumers without interest in games were soon hooked. Encourages gamers to share the title with their non-gamer friends and even parents. Iwata promises each person in attendance at GDC a free copy of the game to share with their families.

And whether you like it or not, JJ's point is valid. People at Nintendo are using careful language in their PR because they're trying to market this to people not generally interested in games.

That doesn't change what it is. If you listen to companies' own PR speak, you're mad as a badger, man.

Sony says the PS3 isn't a games machine. It is. They say the PSP isn't primarily a games machine. It is. Microsoft says the Xbox 360 is more a home computing system. It, too, is a games machine. Nintendo says "No, non-gamers, this isn't like those things you always thought were for kids..." It's still a video game.
 
My quote has Iwata calling it a non-game game. But I guess Iwata isn't the authority on Nintendo products. Neogaf posters are. Sony called PS3/PSP more than a game machine because it ha smore than game functionality. Just because it primarily plays games doesn't unmake its multimedia functionality.
 

ethelred

Member
kisakiproject said:
My quote has Iwata calling it a non-game game. But I guess Iwata isn't the authority on Nintendo products. Neogaf posters are. Sony called PS3/PSP more than a game machine because it ha smore than game functionality. Just because it primarily plays games doesn't unmake its multimedia functionality.

No, your quote has Iwata calling Animal Crossing a non-game game... and then you, the NeoGAF poster, immediately followed that up by saying "As for Animal Crossing its definatly a game in the traditional sense of the word." The term is also put in quotes, as if it's being used... "non-seriously."

Care to try again?
 

Lapsed

Banned
Let us take a look the 'bible' for Nintendo's business strategy:

Blue Ocean Strategy said:
What consistently separated winners from losers in creating blue oceans was their approach to strategy. The companies caught in the red ocean followed a conventional approach, racing to beat the competition by building a defensible position wihin the existing industry order. The creators of blue oceans, surprisingly, didn't use the competition as their benchmark. Instead, they followed a different strategic logic that we call value innovation. Value innovation is the conerstone of blue ocean strategy. We call it value innovation because instead of focusing on beating the competition, you focus on making the competition irrelevant by creating a leap in value for buyers and your company, thereby opening up new and uncontested market space.

Improving existing genres would not grow the industry. But focusing on eliminating disinterest and creating new value in games, Nintendo was able to grow the market. A good example are the Brain Age games which are valued entirely different than other games (just as non-fiction books are valued differently than fiction books).

Value innovation places equal emphasis on value and innovation. Value without innovation tends to focus on value creation on an incremental scale, something that improves value but is not sufficient to make you stand out in the marketplace. Innovation without value tends to be technology-driven, market pioneering, or futuristic, often shooting beyond what buyers are ready to accept and pay for. In this sense, it is important to distinguish between value innovation as opposed to technology innovation and market pioneering. Our study shows that what separates winners from losers in creating blue oceans is neither bleeding-edge technology nor "timing for market entry." Sometimes these exist; more often, however, they do not. Value innovation occurs only when companies align innovation with utility, price, and cost positions. If they fail to anchor innovation with value in this way, technology innovators and market pioneers often lay the eggs that other companies hatch.

The last line signals why someone else just cannot tack on the touch screen (or Wii-mote) onto another system. Brain Age and Wii Sports are more value innovations than technology demonstrations.

Interesting, the PS3 and PSP could easily fit the above definition of being 'technology-driven' and overshooting what buyers are ready to accept and pay. The Xbox 360 definately fits someone focusing on 'market entry timing' to create an industry foothold.

We can easily classify the companies' strategies as:

Playstation = Industry standard
Xbox 360 = Red Ocean
DS, Wii = Blue Ocean

One more quote:

Value innovation is a new way of thinking about and executing strategy that results in the creation of a blue ocean and a break from the competition. Importantly, value innovation defies on of the most commonly accepted dogmas of competition-based strategy: the value-cost trade-off. It is conventionally believed that companies can either create greater value to customers at a higher cost or create reasonable value at a lower cost. Here strategy is seen as making a choice between differentiation and low cost. In contrast, those that seek to create blue oceans pursue differentiation and low cost simultaneously.

Many observers (and some analysts) point that cost is the primary difference between the consoles. They believe that once the Xbox 360 and PS3 come down in price, its sales will go up. In their analysis, they are forgetting about value. People don't buy a 360 or PS3 today not just because of the price but because of low value (due to the limited game library). Once the game library increases, the value of the system goes up (this is true for all systems).

Nintendo has been trying to break the cost-value relationship. If PSP had a price drop, would it suddenly begin outselling the DS? Most likely not because the DS is generating new value that is pulling in non-customers.

Blue Ocean Strategy continues with an interesting example of the wine industry. The demand for wine had been flat but competition and supply resulted in price wars, overemphasising prestige on the bottles, and becoming intimidating to non-wine drinkers. Wine drinkers would debate over the subtle differences of taste that noncustomers couldn't grasp. If a noncustomer complained, the wine drinkes would stick out their pointy finger while sipping their elaborate drinks and declare the non-customers as unsophisticated.

A new wine designed to combat the problems of the industry called Yellow Tail was introduced. The wine was non-intimidating, cheaper, tried to be 'fun', and drew in non-customers. Many regular wine drinkers "went down" to Yellow Tail's level. But many wine drinkers did not and snorted dissatisfaction at it. They considered Yellow Tail as a 'non-wine'. As Yellow Tail exploded in popularity where the company couldn't keep up with the demand, these wine drinkers believed Yellow Tail would destroy the wine industry.

The same parallels can be made with the gaming industry. When hardcore gamers debate textures, game designers, their home theater set ups, 1080p and framerates, I am reminded of wine enthusiasts debating over subtle tastes of wines which are invisible (and intimidating) to the mass market. Wine drinkers believed their industry was mass market when it was actually niche (just like gamers), and that they, the wine drinkers, were more sophisticated than regular people.

Those who complain about 'non-games' are really complaining at the lack of 'sophistication' those games have. Brain Age has no graphics. Animal Crossing has no 'ending'. When a hardcore gamer complains that Wii Sports isn't a game because "it is not sophisticated", this is exactly the point. Wine drinkers lost sight that wine was supposed to be fun to consume, not some symbol of sophistication. Imagine a hardcore gamer trying to upset a Wii Sports (or even Wii Play) party by saying, "Stop! That game is unsophisticated! It is not a true game!" Everyone would laugh at him.

The traditional gamer value games based on their sophistication. But the non-customer will value games differently. To non-customers, Wii Sports and Brain Age are the most sophisticated video games ever made.
 
Okay Animal Crossing is a non-game. Guess I was wrong about that. Mr. Iwata clarified it for me. Thats makes one less "game" game thats sold well on NDS.

New plan become Wino. Yellowtail. :D
 
ethelred said:
Works for me. You're cool with that, right Lance?

I expect it'll get removed from TEVS, too.

Wasn't the last month plus of Neogaf fights in the M-create threads over the fact "animal crossing is too a game." Looks like its over.

BTW why didn't we get any first day sales??
 
BorkBork said:
Way too late for this stuff. I'm going to bed.

Short version: Games made for non-gamers are called non-games. It has not much to do with gameplay, but with target audience. Non-game is a marketing term, not a description of gameplay. That's why interactive movies like MGS2 are games and a pure sports game like Wii Sports is a non-game.
 

cvxfreak

Member
Kurosaki Ichigo said:
Financial failure? It put up 150k in Japan and far more in USA and is yet to be released in Europe.

I don't see the failure anywhere. I see an awesome new IP that is getting way many good critics from both press and users, that sold ok in Japan, that its selling better in USA and that has yet to see how it sells in Europe to measure its financial success.

The game was a bomb. You've just got to trust me on this one.
 

Galactic Fork

A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
kisakiproject said:
Okay Animal Crossing is a non-game. Guess I was wrong about that. Mr. Iwata clarified it for me. Thats makes one less "game" game thats sold well on NDS.

New plan become Wino. Yellowtail. :D

Wait wait, didn't he say non-game game?

Personally, I like the term "non-game game."
 

Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
kisakiproject said:
http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/...e1888e949-8BC2B202-C09F-3E62-0527474CB07D838A


I'll revise my statement. They called them non-game games. Which does still qualify them as games but still differentiates them. However things like Kanji dictionaries can't possibly be considered games. Though DS does have a great interface to teach Kanji's. These kinds of software. Which are PDA software shouldn't be tracked along wiht games sales.
I think he didn't want to say non-games games, but non-gamer games as in games catered for non-gaming audience...
 

jj984jj

He's a pretty swell guy in my books anyway.
SpoonyBard said:
Short version: Games made for non-gamers are called non-games. It has not much to do with gameplay, but with target audience. Non-game is a marketing term, not a description of gameplay. That's why interactive movies like MGS2 are games and a pure sports game like Wii Sports is a non-game.
:lol @ example. But yeah, that's the idea, even I use the term, but it does not mean that they are not games or that they are killing the industry or even that third parties will abandon the type of games they currently make to make them
 
cvxfreak said:
The game was a bomb. You've just got to trust me on this one.
I don't know what insider info or anything else you have to say that, but on the info I have (and everybody does) its not a bomb and has yet to release in a major market, so its not like I don't trust you, but to me its not a bomb.
 

cvxfreak

Member
Kurosaki Ichigo said:
I don't know what insider info or anything else you have to say that, but on the info I have (and everybody does) its not a bomb and has yet to release in a major market, so its not like I don't trust you, but to me its not a bomb.

You don't have the right info then... the game wasn't a success. It sold under expectations relative to the development time put into it. The collapse of Clover reinforces this. It wasn't God Hand, because that one was budget to begin with.

EDIT: This isn't insider stuff either. It's just incredibly easy to figure out.
 

speedpop

Has problems recognising girls
Some of this crap vomited all over the thread is ridiculous.

Can we institute a ban on the phrase "non-game" please GAF mods?
 

Jonnyram

Member
Kurosaki Ichigo said:
Financial failure? It put up 150k in Japan and far more in USA and is yet to be released in Europe.
I think it needed to sell 10x that to be anything like successful. Think back to Onimusha, DMC, and how well they sold. Okami was nothing compared to them, but probably cost way more to make.
 

CorwinB

Member
speedpop said:
Some of this crap vomited all over the thread is ridiculous.

Can we institute a ban on the phrase "non-game" please GAF mods?

Over Amirox' dead body, perhaps. Some of the GAF mods are among the biggest culprits when it comes to that stuff...
 
Ok your right. You win.

Iwata did call it a non-game, I even remember it. I think it was on an E3 speech. I was under the belief that he only used the phrase non-game when it had become famous through gaf and the media. He didn't start out from the beginning to use the term 'non-game'.

But what does it matter, if he didn't defend its title, then what right have I.
Well Done. Case well fought.
 
The goal of Brain Age is to bring the user's brain age, which is scored in the software, to 20. Technically, it can be considered a game.
 

TiVo

Member
Maybe Non-Game means not your average typical game or what people would consider games. Either way don't try and discount it from Nintendo "game sales"

If another company came out with the same "non-games' and their lagging sales boosted immensely we would not be having this arguement.
 
I think the non-game, game argument is the dumbest thing i've ever heard..

it's a game.. it's a piece of software that entertains you.. who cares if it's shooting people in the face or doing simple math problems... It's a game
 
edwardslane said:
I think the non-game, game argument is the dumbest thing i've ever heard..

it's a game.. it's a piece of software that entertains you.. who cares if it's shooting people in the face or doing simple math problems... It's a game

Yeah. I have to agree. When something new comes out, it is natural that people wanna to separate it from the rest, from what is already known.
But in reality, what when Super Mario bros. for the NES came out ? It was new, fresh and the firts platformer ever. What about Zelda ? What about the D-pad ? And so on.

Every new thing at start seems in contrast with the rest, but in the long term it integrate with it. We call this process progress.
 
monty-python-my-brain-hurts-4001113.jpg
 
SpoonyBard said:
Short version: Games made for non-gamers are called non-games. It has not much to do with gameplay, but with target audience. Non-game is a marketing term, not a description of gameplay. That's why interactive movies like MGS2 are games and a pure sports game like Wii Sports is a non-game.
I think this quote should now be the official definition for non-games. (You should just enter it in Wiki) :D
 
You know, people who spout the term non-game need to look up the definition of "game" in the dictionary.

By definition every game that is ballyhoed as a non-game at GAF by definition qualifies as a game.
 
Best Posters of this Thread, go toooo

Kobun Heat, for his awesome explanation of why Lance Stern is who he is. Lapsed, for once again schooling everyone on non-games and why they are called "non-games". Then Nintendo is the one who pretty much "owns" this thread, as in it being a sales topic, and having the Top 15 games for themselves.

Anyone else have a any nominees?
 

SovanJedi

provides useful feedback
The only thing I would consider a non-game on the DS is Electroplankton, because there is absolutely no goal or purpose to the game, other than to be played with and keep people entertained.
 

KINGMOKU

Member
I was just checking something out over at www.the-magicbox.com and the list of platinum game sales(Million sellers) and the DS is just crazy. The list of million selling titles for Nintendo consoles in Japan;(Nintendo published)

NES-20
SNES-10
N64-11
GCN-1

GB-18
GBA-5
DS-13

Thats insane. Kirby will soon make it 14.

The Gamecube only had 1million seller, and it looks like both Sports, and play will hit that mark.

Nintendo's success in Japan is nothing short of stunning.
 
moku said:
I was just checking something out over at www.the-magicbox.com and the list of platinum game sales(Million sellers) and the DS is just crazy. The list of million selling titles for Nintendo consoles in Japan;(Nintendo published)

NES-20
SNES-10
N64-11
GCN-1

GB-18
GBA-5
DS-13

Thats insane. Kirby will soon make it 14.

The Gamecube only had 1million seller, and it looks like both Sports, and play will hit that mark.

Nintendo's success in Japan is nothing short of stunning.

How many from the competition (aka PSx)?
 

ethelred

Member
NintendosBooger said:
How many from the competition (aka PSx)?

Well, moku didn't list all million sellers for Nintendo systems... just the Nintendo published ones. The DS has one third party million seller right now and three more on the verge.

Complete numbers:

NES - 41
PSX - 31
SNES - 29
GB - 26
PS2 - 22
NDS - 14
N64 - 11
GBA - 5
GCN - 1
SAT - 1

The DS is the first Nintendo system to have a third party million seller since the SNES and Game Boy. It's interesting to see how many there are already, though... and Kirby, FF3, DQMJ, Tamagotchi 2, Tetris, and Love & Berry all look like a lock. That'll be 20. DQIX will be 21. Beyond that, who knows.
 

DarkMehm

Member
ethelred said:
Complete numbers:

NES - 41
PSX - 31
SNES - 29
GB - 26
PS2 - 22
NDS - 14
N64 - 11
GBA - 5
GCN - 1
SAT - 1

The DS is the first Nintendo system to have a third party million seller since the SNES and Game Boy. It's interesting to see how many there are already, though... and Kirby, FF3, DQMJ, Tamagotchi 2, Tetris, and Love & Berry all look like a lock. That'll be 20. DQIX will be 21. Beyond that, who knows.

Tetris is already counted as a million seller.
 
Nintendo calls brain training "nongames" so as not to intimidate nongamers. It's just PR speak.

In any case, do these so called "nongames" somehow NOT include gamers? I enjoy brain training a lot, and I just completed Zelda TP a few days ago. The way I see it, Nintendo relies on traditional gamers to pick up brain training, play it, and recommend it to their nongaming friends.
 

ethelred

Member
DarkMehm said:
Tetris is already counted as a million seller.

I haven't seen Famitsu rank it as a million seller yet (up through the end of 2006), which is what these are based on. It is a lock, though, regardless.
 
Love how the Fanboys are like omfg don't say non-game even though nintendo calls them that.

Gollum "non-games" are meant to also appeal to gamers. For example many gamers enjoy playing BA, Wiisports, AC etc. No one is saying that gamers can't enjoy them. Hell I love wiisports. But nintendo called them non-games. so accept it. Trying to analyze or explain away why nintendo used the term because it doesn't fit your view is bs and you know it.
 

Error

Jealous of the Glory that is Johnny Depp
Gollum "non-games" are meant to also appeal to gamers. For example many gamers enjoy playing BA, Wiisports, AC etc. No one is saying that gamers can't enjoy them. Hell I love wiisports. But nintendo called them non-games. so accept it. Trying to analyze or explain away why nintendo used the term because it doesn't fit your view is bs and you know it.
wait sports are now non-games too? :lol
 
A few questions for those objecting to some DS software being referred to as non-games:

1. Would you consider Mario Paint to be a "game" or "not a game?" (And I'm not talking about the fly-swatting mini-game.)

2. Would you consider Adobe Photoshop to be a "game" or "not a game?"

3. If you consider Mario Paint to be a game but Photoshop to be not a game, why do you consider one to be a game and the other not? Because one comes on an SNES cartridge?

I guess some people have the opinion that anything that comes on a console disc or cartridge must be a "game" and I'd disagree. Software, sure. But not games.
 
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