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Naughty Dog, Lose the Speedrunning

mindsale

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May 18, 2013
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When BluePoint (wonderfully) remastered the Uncharted trilogy, I found it curious that they had added a series of speedrunning accomplishments.

When Uncharted 4 launched with a silver speedrunning trophy as well, I began to worry that it's becoming part of Naughty Dog's design philosophy, at least toward achievements.

I really hope they don't include any more, specifically in The Last of Us Part II.

ND creates the most atmospheric, well-written, well-acted software available. To encourage players to skip through emptionally-charged scenes and context-sensitive environments robs a player of that immersion and world building, and lessens a title's impact every playthrough thereafter having already experienced content with nothing but a time trial on their mind.

This is the last company that should be trying to have players appreciate less of their content.

I appreciate that speedruns are a Meta-construct where something other than narrative tension motivates a player and inspires fear and anxiety, and I understand that speedrunning communities are flourishing with all the content streaming services that currently abound. Still I beg of you Naughty Dog, ditch the style altogether. Leave speedrunning emphasis to the sequel to The Order and duller, less-inspaired software. You're better than this.

Is this how you feel about speedrunning? Can you think of games that implemented speedrunning achievements well? Did you like the recent Naughty Dog speedrunning achievements? Should they back away from the mechanic, or will it persist into The Last of Us Part II having no trophies other than speedrunning-related ones?
 

DigSCCP

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Mar 7, 2015
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Well I dont need to finish the game on speedrun so make no difference to me.
And Im saying this as someone who really enjoy trophies and never made a single speedrun.
 

hank_tree

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Dec 11, 2008
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They need to include trophies like that, which encourage multiple play throughs to try and lower people selling their games back too early.
 
Jun 21, 2012
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... You know that you don't have to speedrun the game on your first run, right ?

If you don't like the whole speedrun thing, just... act like there's no speedrunning trophy ?
 

Kart94

Banned
Feb 9, 2014
1,263
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Hey, here is a wonderful solution for this problem.....don't play speedrunning if that bothers you so much. Trophies are overrated anyway.
 

Deft Beck

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Mar 8, 2007
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I think you already stated how speedrunning ignores the point of the narrative emphasis. Instead, the emphasis is on pure reflex, knowing what's ahead, and how to deal with potential RNG.

Why leave that out, if a niche audience wants it?
 

BumblebeeCody

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Jul 30, 2013
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The Resident Evil and Metroid games have been an original staple series for speed running. "Beat the game in a certain amount of time and unlock something" is apart of the series. I don't have an issue with ND games having it and not should anyone else. It's a challenge for those who seek it and doesn't detach from or lessen the overall experience of their games.
 

RedSparrows

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Aug 13, 2009
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Whynotboth.

Speedrunning achievements in MCC were a great way of nodding to past exploits, I liked them. People can play ND games at speed if they so wish...? I wouldn't speed-run TLOU because the story was the only thing I really enjoyed about it, but others might love the challenge/context.
 
D

Deleted member 59090

Unconfirmed Member
Do cutscenes even count towards your total time?
 

MegaSackman

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Aug 14, 2014
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Reason why I'll never platinum Naughty Dogs games or The Last Guardian.

Fuck rushing games, fuck that.
 

xrnzaaas

Member
Dec 9, 2013
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Yeah it sucks. I did the speedruning trophies in the Nathan Drake collection, but only because they involved doing short <10 minute levels. I don't plan to waste a few hours on one trophy.
 

Noobcraft

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Nov 9, 2013
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They need to include trophies like that, which encourage multiple play throughs to try and lower people selling their games back too early.
Their stories are kind of just a one-time and you're good set up though. If they want replayability in their single player they need to have branches or more dynamic approaches to situations (like TLOU).
 

MikeBison

Member
Sep 15, 2016
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It's great for people that want to try their hand at running a game faster to have the tools built in to do it.

What's great for people that don't want to, is they simply don't have to.
 

Caim

Member
Feb 10, 2015
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This is silly.

You don't need to do everything in one playthrough.

You can run through the game normally, experience the story, etc. and then if you plan on chasing the platinum you can do a speedrun or whatever the trophy requirements are.
 

mindsale

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May 18, 2013
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Yeah it sucks. I did the speedruning trophies in the Nathan Drake collection, but only because they involved doing short <10 minute levels. I don't plan to waste a few hours on one trophy.

Yep. I made a hobby of Platinuming all Naughty Dog games on PS3 and I just refuse to do speedrunning trophies on the PS4 games. And I'm not a trophy whore, I just love relishing as much of Naughty Dog's content as I can.
 

KORNdoggy

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Sep 20, 2013
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i don't see it as encouraging skipping emotional scenes and context. more as a means to give you a reason to replay their games. i can't imagine anyone speedrunning TLOU2 first time. but 4th time? 5th? why not?
 

Froyo Love

Banned
Sep 10, 2013
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I appreciate that speedruns are a Meta-construct where something other than narrative tension motivates a player and inspires fear and anxiety, and I understand that speedrunning communities are flourishing with all the content streaming services that currently abound. Still I beg of you Naughty Dog, ditch the style altogether. Leave speedrunning emphasis to the sequel to The Order and duller, less-inspaired software. You're better than this.
I, too, sneer at such plebian fare while I pretend to be Indiana Jones and shotgun people.
 

Shifty

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Sep 25, 2015
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I mean I sort of get where you're coming from, but on the flipside I can't see myself feeling pressured to speedrun on my first playthrough just because an achievement exists for it.
Given the choice between experiencing a finely-crafted narrative and rushing through it for some gamerscore, I'll take the former every time.

That said, I'm not a very achievement-motivated person. I'll take a look and see if there are any that sound fun to do after I finish a game, but by-and-large I'm apathetic about them.

For speedrun challenges specifically, I actually quite like the idea because they force you to get better and be more efficient. If it's a mechanically enjoyable game, seeing your skills evolve as you get better is very satisfying.
Extra kudos if there are fun unlockables hidden behind said challenges instead of arbitrary gamerpoints.
 
Nov 23, 2011
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I skipped all cutscenes in GTA4 because of the speedrun trophy so I still have no idea what the story of that game was. So I agree, let me 100% at my own pace.
 

ZeroX03

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Oct 23, 2009
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Speedrunning trophies aren't my favorite thing to do, but very few people in the world do them first time, even if they're trophy hunters. They're not depriving anyone of anything. If doing a speed run lessens the impact of the game or whatever, just play it again after? Or just don't do the trophies? Seems like a really unnecessary complaint.

I appreciate that speedruns are a Meta-construct where something other than narrative tension motivates a player and inspires fear and anxiety, and I understand that speedrunning communities are flourishing with all the content streaming services that currently abound. Still I beg of you Naughty Dog, ditch the style altogether. Leave speedrunning emphasis to the sequel to The Order and duller, less-inspaired software. You're better than this.
And get out of here with this nonsense. Speed runners focus on good games because they love playing them over and over.
 

MUnited83

For you.
Dec 14, 2013
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You're not supposed to to the speedrunning in your goddamn first playthrough are supposed to do it when you already know the whole game. This is not an issue unless you are extremely OCD about trophies but want to get them all in your first go somehow.
 

Deft Beck

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The amount of threads we get lamenting optional content is ridiculous.
There's a perception that the focus on optional content dilutes or literally takes development time away from supposedly more meaningful content.

But, that's likely not the case at all.
 

red731

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Apr 22, 2011
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The idea of the speed running achievements is to add replayability. You aren't supposed to go for them on your first playthrough.
You must spell it for some.

Some people look at achievements first, not the game and the enjoyment it gives.
 

IbukiLordSA

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Jan 5, 2015
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Mute point, who speed runs on their first play through? It takes time to understand the game, it's mechanics and environments before you can attempt to speed run. Nothing wrong with adding something like this to games.
 

dl77

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Nov 4, 2013
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I don't get the issue, it's entirely optional and I doubt anyone does it on their first playthrough?

I don't do speedrunning but generally I think they're a good idea as they encourage players to try new things within the game, some of which they may find useful on a normal playthrough.

As others have said, it's not a compulsory element unless you really want to get every single trophy. But in that respect you could say the same about most trophies that require consistent repetition to unlock them.
 

mindsale

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May 18, 2013
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You're not supposed to to the speedrunning in your goddamn first playthrough are supposed to do it when you already know the whole game. This is not an issue unless you are extremely OCD about trophies but want to get them all in your first go somehow.
I wouldn't, but some would.

I cherish the first five playthroughs of ND software.
 

MegaSackman

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Aug 14, 2014
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If the op it's like me he's not complaining about doing that the first playthrough, the problem is doing it at all.

I can't replay an Uncharted game like that, I replay those games a lot but because I enjoy them, doing a speedrun feels like a complete waste of time. Unless you're playing Super Meat Boy or something like that.
 

Skux

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Aug 28, 2014
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The only people speedrunning the game on their first playthrough are people who have played the PS3 versions of the games to death.
 

dl77

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Nov 4, 2013
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Mute point, who speed runs on their first play through? It takes time to understand the game, it's mechanics and environments before you can attempt to speed run. Nothing wrong with adding something like this to games.
Not a dig but that just reminded me of Friends!

 

mindatlarge

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Jul 20, 2016
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Though I'd never look to get a trophy involving speed the first time around, on a second or third playthrough, it might inject some more fun into the game for some people. Not a fan of being rushed through games either, so I doubt I'd ever go for a trophy like that. But I understand why some like that sort of thing.
 

ZeroX03

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Oct 23, 2009
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I wouldn't, but some would.
You have to do a full collectible run for the Platinum. You're talking a tiny amount of people who are doing the speed run first, every single guide says do the completionist run first. Also, who the hell are you to to tell them how to play?

I cherish the first five playthroughs of ND software.
Then don't speed run the first five times you play?
 

dl77

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Nov 4, 2013
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will it persist into The Last of Us Part II having no trophies other than speedrunning-related ones?
Eh?! It's a hell of a leap from the odd trophy for speedrunning certain areas to saying that all the trophies for a game will be speedrun related!
 

InsaneTiger

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Sep 28, 2013
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No one is forcing you to speed run, unless seeing less than 100% on trophy data bothers you that much. It can appeal to people and speed running trophies shouldn't be removed just because you don't like it.

And no, I don't see TLOU2 getting a speed running trophy, doesn't fit the theme of the game. Uncharted feels more swashbuckling so speed running is a little more fun.
 

InsaneTiger

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Sep 28, 2013
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OP can also get the Platinum on Uncharted on PS4 without speed running. So I don't understand their problem.
 

mindsale

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May 18, 2013
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If the op it's like me he's not complaining about doing that the first playthrough, the problem is doing it at all.

I can't replay an Uncharted game like that, I replay those games a lot but because I enjoy them, doing a speedrun feels like a complete waste of time. Unless you're playing Super Meat Boy or something like that.

It's exactly this. It feels like such a waste. Uncharted is certainly more conducive to speedrunning than a stealth TPS like TLoU, but I don't want it anywhere near their design docs.

And while I understand it stops people from trading in their games or whatever, a speedrun isn't that big a barrier to trade-ins, just 6 hours or so (I mean, yes, per attempt). And after finishing a speed run I personally would be more likely to ditch software, having bastardized a traditional playthrough.
 

Sande

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Jan 10, 2014
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I find the speedrunning trophies odd, but for a different reason. Uncharted games just aren't really constructed in a way that makes speedrunning interesting. They're so highly choreographed that the only way to go faster is to just... keep running, really. There's usually quite a bit more to it in games where speedrunning becomes popular. The high accuracy run in U4 was way more interesting than speedrunning, for example.

But yeah, it takes little effort to implement and gives people a different kind of playthrough so why not.
 

MUnited83

For you.
Dec 14, 2013
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I wouldn't, but some would.

I cherish the first five playthroughs of ND software.
You're complaining about imaginary people doing something optional?
Don't speedrun on your first five playthroughs, it's that easy, nobody forces you to.
 

jmartoine

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Aug 14, 2015
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There's a perception that the focus on optional content dilutes or literally takes development time away from supposedly more meaningful content.

But, that's likely not the case at all.
Indeed. When we get games with more streamlined linear content there are some that bemoan the lack of optional things to do yet other complain when they are added.

Game devs really cannot win.
 

Trup1aya

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Jan 18, 2015
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There's nothing wrong with encouraging speed running.

Sure you skip through the narrative, but most people down get set to speed run until they've had their fill of the narrative.