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[dskillzhtown]

War fucks people up and some of those people were fucked up to begin with.

This.

Killing people for a living and waking up everyday wondering if they would die that day would fuck up anyone's head.

 

[Darkman M]

This.

Killing people for a living and waking up everyday wondering if they would die that day would fuck up anyone's head.

Sounds like a cop out to me, there are plenty honorable veterans these people are just uneducated trash.

 

[Instigator]

If you think Americans didn't pull this type of shit in WWII, you're wrong.

If you think Americans didn't pull this type of shit in Korea, you're wrong.

Etc. Etc. Etc.

As mentioned before, your objective as a soldier is to fight and kill. That's pretty much what you're trained to do. Best way to make it easier on those soldiers? Psychologically make the enemy less than human. The difference in these last few wars? Press coverage and leaks of what war is really like.

Talk about missing the point.

This is not about soldiers, on the field, stressed out and being a bit too trigger happy or a bunch of asshole soldiers thinking they can get away with raping a local girl. Even in those cases, it is not sanctionnned by the military leadership and there's at least the appearance of rules of engagement.

This is about the more cushy, bureaucratic side of war. How to deal with prisoners of wars and civilian detainees in a war zone. And another very important difference here is the Bush administration has publicly stopped pretending to play by the rules in these matters. Abu Ghraib is not shocking proof that shit can happens in war, but how low they actually went with the White House seal of approval. There was nothing random about it.

It's the route that some of those in PETA go for. You show people the process of killing animals and the sometimes brutal route that some farmers/hunters/etc. go through, and you will get people pissed off because they live in their fancy suburbian home and have never seen a pig get cut up or a baby calf stuck in a box so they can enjoy their veal.

Guess what, raising cattle will involve killing animals. Footage of routine slaughter might shock some of the more sensitive souls out there, but there is a general understanding that this must be done and can be done relatively humanely under certain conditions.

Show farm footage of employees kicking hens, doing cock fights and stuff rather than the strict raising and slaughtering and you will end up with a more general outcry.

It's not to say it's right, it's just to say this shit happens in wars on all sides.

I'd like to see statistics of the soldiers who come back home and see what percentage go the "WWII route" (just shut up and don't talk about it and move on) and those who go Rambo ("you can't just turn it off").

Why bother?

PTSD seems proof enough.

 

[pj]

Why are people blaming "rednecks"? Have rednecks started becoming Yankees fans, and getting into positions of power to order invasions of other countries?

 

[Walshicus]

If you think Americans didn't pull this type of shit in WWII, you're wrong.

If you think Americans didn't pull this type of shit in Korea, you're wrong.

Etc. Etc. Etc.

I think it's a relatively recent thing as far as the everyman soldier is concerned. Hell wasn't it WW2 where psychologists found most soldiers wouldn't fire at the enemy even while under fire? You have to train people to be prepared to kill like that, I can't believe that doesn't screw up a large number of them.

 

[Chumly]

Um, dumb question, I know:

But considering that a circus can be taken way more serious than the UNO and NATO together:

Why does nobody of the US-government or -army (except those little fishes) get fired or charged for war crimes?

Since nobody cares about countries that do much worse shit than the US (Namely russia and china) the US will never ever be charged with war crimes. Kind of hard to do that while closing your eyes to the rest of the world.

 

[siamesedreamer]

I'm not in any way defending this shit, but to call this "america's darkest days" is the stupidest fucking thing in the world.

one of
ONE OF
ONE OF

 

[genjiZERO]

that's the worst thing I've ever seen. If America ever even had moral high-ground it's lost it completely now.

 

[MrPing1000]

fanning the flames of anti-American sentiment one day at a time.

You've got a nice fire going!

 

[Rapping Granny]

God bless America?

God bless my balls.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

Since nobody cares about countries that do much worse shit than the US (Namely russia and china) the US will never ever be charged with war crimes. Kind of hard to do that while closing your eyes to the rest of the world.

Oh, that's true.

 

[Cauliflower of Love]

one of
ONE OF
ONE OF

I saw that, and still, it's not even close.

 

[WrathOfOtaibah]

Are these people still breathing? If they are, someone fucked up.

Also, there is no excuse for this shit. Most soldiers would not do this so I see no reason in rationalizing their fucked up minds. Put a bullet in the back of their heads, toss them in some ditch somewhere, and call it a day.

 

[elektrikluv]

This is absolutely disgusting I have no words, why are these fuckers still alive?

 

[Robert R1]

The stanford experiment should give a lot of the answers.

 

[Lelielle]

Check this out: recent book by Zimbardo about this type of thing, I have been meaning to pick it up:

http://www.lucifereffect.org/

 

[Jonm1010]

The stanford experiment should give a lot of the answers.

I'm still wondering how Errol Morris' new documentary "Standard Operating Procedure" is gonna turn out.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0896866/

 

[FightyF]

Sounds like a cop out to me, there are plenty honorable veterans these people are just uneducated trash.

Also this argument can't be made for higher ups who were aware of this.

 

[frankthurk]

I saw that, and still, it's not even close.

What were these other dark days where we actually decided to start wars by preemptively invading 2 countries without provocation? I think that makes it pretty damn dark for me at least.

 

[Cauliflower of Love]

What were these other dark days where we actually decided to start wars by preemptively invading 2 countries without provocation? I think that makes it pretty damn dark for me at least.

Oh sorry, I thought this thread was about prisoners being tortured and not about the entire war, the events leading up to it and everything after.

.oops.

 

[MiamiWesker]

Disturbing, a hope all those involved get to rot in a prison, there is no excuse for that. I dont get how those morons = America, those are screwed up humans, every country has them. I understand the situation was caused by America but the act that occured is due to those people.

 

[Kitschkraft]

From what I understand, we haven't seen half the shit from there.....

I've heard that there has been many rapes committed and that there is evidence for them.

There will be a SHIT SHOW in the middle east if photos of muslim women being raped by american soldiers ever gets out.

 

[Zombie James]

 

[Hootie]

Support our troops, amirite?

This shit is fucking disgusting.

 

[CrushDance]

From what I understand, we haven't seen half the shit from there.....

I've heard that there has been many rapes committed and that there is evidence for them.

There will be a SHIT SHOW in the middle east if photos of muslim women being raped by american soldiers ever gets out.

This has been all but confirmed in the past, I remember hearing about it a lot in 2006. The media will never bring it up though because of the shit that'll fly.

But guys you have to also remember. This is just like with police when everyone labels them all as corrupt and power hungry, there's some bad apples but I'm sure the majority of them aren't like that. Look at what happens when a lot of these guys get back home, they're damaged mentally because of the killing they've done and thing they've witnessed.

Don't label them all as trash.

 

[Guy Legend]

OMG, those pics.....

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

So what we are left with is an army full of amoral psychopaths, that's a scary thought.

If they didn't train them to be like that then you'd have what you had with WW1 + 2; a lot of soldiers who are afraid to shoot the enemy.

 

[FunkyMunkey]

that's the worst thing I've ever seen. If America ever even had moral high-ground it's lost it completely now.

Fuck you for associating the rest of America with this sick shit.

And I can't understand the ignorance in this thread. EVERY FUCKING COUNTRY WITH A MILITARY HAS SHIT LIKE THIS HAPPEN. The only difference here is, the pictures got out.

Quit playing the "lol stupid americans!!" card and think. This is humanistic problem that developed from dumbasses being put into a position of power over others. Add weapons and language and ethic barriers between the two parties and sick shit will go down.

(P.S. According to much of the logic here, I guess I should hate all of Germany and the germans for the holocaust, right? Or I should hate ALL of Sudan for the crap going on in darfur? You guys are fucking amazing sometimes.)

 

[AltogetherAndrews]

Fuck you for associating the rest of America with this sick shit.

And I can't understand the ignorance in this thread. EVERY FUCKING COUNTRY WITH A MILITARY HAS SHIT LIKE THIS HAPPEN. The only difference here is, the pictures got out.

No, the real difference is that the US in many ways publicly justifies its own actions by supporting the notion that its system, and therefore logically also its procedures even at war, is a step above the rest and should therefore be the model for everyone. After all, there was a lot of talk about the need to infuse a bit of American freedom and American social values into the savage middle east, so it stands to reason that events that are typically "just part of war" might raise a few eyebrows. If you're going to take to the stage in a fancy shroud and preach about the importance of enlightenment, you had better not let the audience spot the corpses back stage.

 

[Anasui Kishibe]

Since nobody cares about countries that do much worse shit than the US (Namely russia and china) the US will never ever be charged with war crimes. Kind of hard to do that while closing your eyes to the rest of the world.

so you meant to talk shit about other countries and..talk shit about other countries? Good job

 

[FunkyMunkey]

No, the real difference is that the US in many ways publicly justifies its own actions by supporting the notion that its system, and therefore logically also its procedures even at war, is a step above the rest and should therefore be the model for everyone. After all, there was a lot of talk about the need to infuse a bit of American freedom and American social values into the savage middle east, so it stands to reason that events that are typically "just part of war" might raise a few eyebrows. If you're going to take to the stage in a fancy shroud and preach about the importance of enlightenment, you had better not let the audience spot the corpses back stage.

(Great choice of words, man). I agree that these pictures and stories are especially ridiculous and saddening given the stance the US has taken on the war, but it still happens regardless. This is probably 1/100 of the crazy shit that has happened over there in the last few years, difference is we actually found out about this.

For a war involving soooo many different factors, this is really not THAT large of deal (the few prisoners being ridiculed and a couple dieing I mean) compared to other "atrocities" that have occurred during wars. I think it's awesome to see people taking a stance against this disgusting kind of thing, but they need to try and keep an objective view.

so you meant to talk shit about other countries and..talk shit about other countries? Good job

What?? He's saying the US isn't in as bad of a position you guys are venomously arguing about, compared to the rest of the world (and they won't be charged with war crimes when shit 100x worse is happening every fucking day in other countries).

 

[Lelielle]

From what I understand, we haven't seen half the shit from there.....

I've heard that there has been many rapes committed and that there is evidence for them.

There will be a SHIT SHOW in the middle east if photos of muslim women being raped by american soldiers ever gets out.

Heck female US soldiers are being raped by men in their own platoons on a regular basis so that wouldn't be a surprise at all unfortunately......

 

[3rdman]

There were articles from Seymour Hersch which basically said that there was abuse of women and children going on in the prisons. Mostly it was psychological like holding a gun to a kid's head while questioning the father but in other instances it was sexual and with underaged children. There is more to this...

 

[Slurpy]

And? Did anyone think that this shit stopped after the original photos were shown? The American public will feign outrage, surprise and shock, and they then will promptly stop giving a shit in a week, or a couple days, and anyone who proposes a withdrawal will be scoffed and mocked.

100 hundred more years, baby! As long as it takes! Were in it to win! Support our troops! Not putting up the white flag! Most people here don't even support a withdrawal, and if you don't you have no right to pretend to be outraged at these photos. Such disingenuous bullshit.

 

[genjiZERO]

Fuck you for associating the rest of America with this sick shit.

And I can't understand the ignorance in this thread. EVERY FUCKING COUNTRY WITH A MILITARY HAS SHIT LIKE THIS HAPPEN. The only difference here is, the pictures got out.

Quit playing the "lol stupid americans!!" card and think. This is humanistic problem that developed from dumbasses being put into a position of power over others. Add weapons and language and ethic barriers between the two parties and sick shit will go down.

(P.S. According to much of the logic here, I guess I should hate all of Germany and the germans for the holocaust, right? Or I should hate ALL of Sudan for the crap going on in darfur? You guys are fucking amazing sometimes.)

Well you did start the war unprovoked - and your population supported it full-heartedly - so I do think the American people are (in part) to blame for its barbaric outcomes. It doesn't happen with every other country with a military because the US (and Britain) are the most internationally belligerent nations. When was the last time Canada, Australia, Sweden or almost whoever industrialised nation started an unprovoked unilateral offensive war, labeled the Geneva Convention outdated, and subverted its own laws (habeus corpus) to maintain prison camps/torture facilities? This kind of "shit" happens because the American military/government thinks that it can police the rest of the world, trounce whatever nation it pleases, and subvert the sovereignty of any country who doesn't acknowledge the status quo of its hegemony. Almost as bad, the American people refuse to acknowledge their own accountability in actively or passively supporting such measures. If you are tired of the rest of the world hating you - blaming you for for very single misdeed enacted - then stop electing politicians who feel that they can spit on the faces of other nations, and stop supporting your military who day-in and day-out get away with rape and pillage. Your politicians and your military represent you to the outside world - their actions are your actions - if you are unhappy with this then do something about it - but 'man up' and take responsibility.

Furthermore, Germans were blamed for WW2-era genocide and the people of Sudan should be blamed for it in a modern context. Passive acceptance is still acceptance.

 

[ItAintEasyBeinCheesy]

Why display it? Why should it be included in a picture?

It speaks to their enthusiasm towards the veneration of the mutiliated.

It shows serious fucking problems.

:lol oh my god, seriously :lol you made me laugh hard, serious much?

I think they are showing a little humour, carrying massive ass guns and having a laugh at a dead little mouse, get the fuck over yourself, the rest are bad though.

 

[jmdajr]

Well you did start the war unprovoked - and your population supported it full-heartedly - so I do think the American people are (in part) to blame for its barbaric outcomes. It doesn't happen with every other country with a military because the US (and Britain) are the most internationally belligerent nations. When was the last time Canada, Australia, Sweden or almost whoever industrialised nation started an unprovoked unilateral offensive war, labeled the Geneva Convention outdated, and subverted its own laws (habeus corpus) to maintain prison camps/torture facilities? This kind of "shit" happens because the American military/government thinks that it can police the rest of the world, trounce whatever nation it pleases, and subvert the sovereignty of any country who doesn't acknowledge the status quo of its hegemony. Almost as bad, the American people refuse to acknowledge their own accountability in actively or passively supporting such measures. If you are tired of the rest of the world hating you - blaming you for for very single misdeed enacted - then stop electing politicians who feel that they can spit on the faces of other nations, and stop supporting your military who day-in and day-out get away with rape and pillage. Your politicians and your military represent you to the outside world - their actions are your actions - if you are unhappy with this then do something about it - but 'man up' and take responsibility.

Furthermore, Germans were blamed for WW2-era genocide and the people of Sudan should be blamed for it in a modern context. Passive acceptance is still acceptance.

Guess what, not everyone voted for Bush.

Hey, aren't you that Forrest Gump Movie hater? Declared the worst movie you've ever seen? Because it sucks Americas big ol' pole? eh?

:lol

(forrest gump is great )

 

[Kitschkraft]

Heck female US soldiers are being raped by men in their own platoons on a regular basis so that wouldn't be a surprise at all unfortunately......

Really? I've read about a lot of the sex that goes on, however, I didn't know that these dogs were over there forcing themselves on their own soldiers....my fucking goodness, this is some soviet army under Stalin type shit.

 

[Slurpy]

Guess what, not everyone voted for Bush.

Hey aren't you that Forrest Gump Movie hater? Because it sucks Americas big ol' pole? eh?

:lol

Guess what, enough people did. Twice. So I think, at this point, other nations have a right to start associating Americans with this and holding them accountable. Collectively, they let it happen. The US has absolutely no problem with collectively punishing and starving other nations for the actions of a minority in that nation. Yet Americans want to see themselves as not needing to take responsibility for and having absolutely nothing to do with whatever damage their country does to others, while at the same time overwhelmingly supporting the initial invasion, and doing absolutely nothing of worth to stop it or speak against it. So sickening, immature and hedonistic. Grow the fuck up.

 

[Flo_Evans]

Anyone wondering why it happened:

http://www.taxitothedarkside.com/

all answered in the doc. I am surprised no one has seen it...

Haven't seen that one but HBO has a doc called Ghosts of Abu Ghraib http://www.hbo.com/docs/programs/ghostsofabughraib/index.html

 

[teiresias]

I'm not in any way defending this shit, but to call this "america's darkest days" is the stupidest fucking thing in the world.

Well, he said "one of", but I have to agree - perhaps the darkest day was November 2, 2004.

 

[genjiZERO]

Guess what, not everyone voted for Bush.

Hey, aren't you that Forrest Gump Movie hater? Declared the worst movie you've ever seen? Because it sucks Americas big ol' pole? eh?

:lol

(forrest gump is great )

it doesn't matter if you didn't vote for Bush. Initial support for the war was between 55 and 85%. Even if your government lied to you you still supported it and should accept the consequences of it.

 

[jmdajr]

Guess what, enough people did. Twice. So I think, at this point, other nations have a right to start associating Americans with this and holding them accountable. Collectively, they let it happen. The US has absolutely no problem with collectively punishing and starving other nations for the actions of a minority in that nation. Yet Americans want to see themselves as having absolutely nothing to do with whatever damage their country does to others, while at the same time supporting the initial invasions, and doing absolutely nothing of worth to stop it or speak against it. So sickening, immature and hedonistic.

Guilt by association? Well if that's what you want to believe, thats fine.
There's no point in trying to convince you otherwise.

 

[laserbeam]

Guess what, enough people did. Twice. So I think, at this point, other nations have a right to start associating Americans with this and holding them accountable. Collectively, they let it happen. The US has absolutely no problem with collectively punishing and starving other nations for the actions of a minority in that nation. Yet Americans want to see themselves as having absolutely nothing to do with whatever happens overseas, while at the same time supporting the initial invasions and doing absolutely nothing to stop or speak against it.

Maybe because Agree with the War or not. We went in there and broke shit. So its our responsibility to get Broken shit stabilized. Iraq is not gonna magically Become the Happiest Place on Earth if the United States just gets up and walks out.

Personally I think the United States needs to revert to its Pre-WWI Status of fuck the world and worry about itself only policy. I can imagine how fast whole sections of the world would plunge into chaos then.

The United States is bitched at for putting it's nose into things that other Countries say we shouldn't. Then when the United States doesn't take action on similar things those same Countries bitch the United States isn't doing its job as the Worlds Super Power to enforce change and stability in the world.

There will always be a subset of people who Join The Military or Police Forces in EVERY nation that do so for all the wrong reasons and do not belong in these jobs.

 

[Captain Glanton]

:lol Connecticut royalty! :lol

 

[jmdajr]

it doesn't matter if you didn't vote for Bush. Initial support for the war was between 55 and 85%. Even if your government lied to you you still supported it and should accept the consequences of it.

 

[Anerythristic]

How long has this impotent, angsty, inferiority complex thing been going on on GAF? It's real funny and really hypocritical.

These pictures are horrible and these punks and their commanding officers did and should serve alot of time in a deep dark hole.

Alot of these E- warriors on GAF need to grow up though,

Wahhh! Wahh! Everything is Americas fault ! All of the people of the Middle East blow up women and children and behead journalists! All Japanese rape Chinese women and drive Samurai swords through civilans chests! All Germans are Nazis and put Jews in ovens! The British Empire starved 33 million Indians to death! Waahhh!

 

[KRS7]

Well then I guess I can blame all French for nuking pacific islands, and polluting those ecosystems, not to mention conflicts that France is participating in Africa. And blame all Japanese for harpooning endangered whales and overfishing. Every Chinese citizen is therefore responsible for Tibet. Blaming every citizen for the actions of their government or corporations is rash and doesn't make sense.

While many in America are way too jingoistic and think their government can do no wrong, it is not that different from other countries. I've met many people from around the world, and most of them are just as proud of their countries as Americans are of the United States.

 

[Slurpy]

Maybe because Agree with the War or not. We went in there and broke shit. So its our responsibility to get Broken shit stabilized. Iraq is not gonna magically Become the Happiest Place on Earth if the United States just gets up and walks out.

Personally I think the United States needs to revert to its Pre-WWI Status of fuck the world and worry about itself only policy. I can imagine how fast whole sections of the world would plunge into chaos then.

The United States is bitched at for putting it's nose into things that other Countries say we shouldn't. Then when the United States doesn't take action on similar things those same Countries bitch the United States isn't doing its job as the Worlds Super Power to enforce change and stability in the world.

There will always be a subset of people who Join The Military or Police Forces in EVERY nation that do so for all the wrong reasons and do not belong in these jobs.

Yeah, the US is still in Iraq because it feels 'responsible'. Because it feels bad, right? Do you honestly believe that? Where the fuck did I say Iraq will become the happiest place on earth? Why do you make shit up to dismiss an issue? You take an extreme and pretend it had a place in the discussion to begin with. Thats intellectually dishonest.

And what if shit doesn't get stabilized? How long does the US stay there? Infinitely, because it feels 'responsible'? Right.

Also, enough with the whole 'oh noes america is victimized' spiel. Why are you muddying the issue with rhetoricals and hypotheticals? Why are you using so many of the shitty argumentative tactics of the far right, saying all sorts of stuff and essentially saying nothing?

PS- as a tip, stop capitalizing random words.

 

[Anerythristic]

We should do one for every country, Do you guys agree?. I'll start with the UK, because they are BFF with the US and great allies.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/jul/23/congo.comment

It has become a modern orthodoxy that Europe's 20th century was the bloodiest in history and that atrocities must be recorded and remembered by society as a whole. But while a Black Book of Communism has been compiled and everybody is aware of the horrors of nazism, popular historians have been surprisingly uninterested in the dark side of the British Empire. There are exceptions, such as Mike Davis's powerful Late Victorian Holocausts, but much else still lies buried in the academic literature. Davis and others have estimated that there were between 12 and 33 million avoidable deaths by famine in India between 1876 and 1908, produced by a deadly combination of official callousness and free-market ideology. But these were far from being a purely Victorian phenomenon. As late as 1943 around 4 million died in the Bengal famine, largely because of official policy.

No one has even attempted to quantify the casualties caused by state-backed forced labour on British-owned mines and plantations in India, Africa and Malaya. But we do know that tens of thousands of often conscripted Africans, Indians and Malays - men, women and children - were either killed or maimed constructing Britain's imperial railways. Also unquantified are the numbers of civilian deaths caused by British aerial bombing and gassing of villages in Sudan, Iraq and Palestine in the 1920 and 1930s.

Nor was the supposedly peaceful decolonisation of the British Empire without its gory cruelties. The hurried partition of the Indian subcontinent brought about a million deaths in the ensuing uncontrolled panic and violence. The brutal suppression of the Mau Mau and the detention of thousands of Kenyan peasants in concentration camps are still dimly remembered, as are the Aden killings of the 1960s. But the massacre of communist insurgents by the Scots Guard in Malaya in the 1950s, the decapitation of so-called bandits by the Royal Marine Commandos in Perak and the secret bombing of Malayan villages during the Emergency remain uninvestigated.

Wow, I am shocked actually, how many millions is that from India alone? Do the Indians hate the Brits as much as the Iraqis hate us or more?