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The Demise Of Guys? (TED Talk)

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Plywood

NeoGAF's smiling token!
Apophenia Overload brought this up in the GPE thread. It is a less than 5 minute video, so I encourage you to watch it.

http://www.ted.com/talks/zimchallenge.html
Psychologist Philip Zimbardo asks, "Why are boys struggling?" He shares some stats (lower graduation rates, greater worries about intimacy and relationships) and suggests a few reasons -- and challenges the TED community to think about solutions.

Philip Zimbardo was the leader of the notorious 1971 Stanford Prison Experiment -- and an expert witness at Abu Ghraib.

So GAF:

Do you think there is a problem?
Is there nothing to be concerned over?
Is it fine to be addicted to the novelty of these things(mentioned in the video)?
 

Esiquio

Member
Menthenandnow.jpg


Pretty much what I think. Although others on GAF with disagree, I'm sure, men and women are extremely different, behave different, and have different qualities, strengths and weaknesses. Politically correct bullshit is part of the problem with people wanting equality between apples and oranges.

Zimbardo makes very good points in his video, and I think he's right. The answer really is, get out more, out of your comfort zone and connect with others in a real way.
 
Philip Zimbardo was the leader of the notorious 1971 Stanford Prison Experiment -- and an expert witness at Abu Ghraib.

I find it amusing that he was an 'expert' witness in Abu Ghraib related matters. I guess he would have firsthand knowledge about being in a position of authority and allowing unethical and immoral behavior to occur under your watch.

ED: The tone of this comment is far too dickish and condescending. Remorseful irony would be more apt to that situation. He has spent decades atoning professionally and personally, and he should not be branded forever. We should not forget past actions, but I went too far.
 

rdrr gnr

Member
Average boy watches 50 porn clips a week? What? No.

Gaming is becoming less and less about isolation.

I blame the matriarchy.
I find it amusing that he was an 'expert' witness in Abu Ghraib related matters. I guess he would have firsthand knowledge about being in a position of authority and allowing unethical and immoral behavior to occur under your watch.
Are you being facetious? The man is a world-renown expert in his field.
damn, people watch 50 porn clips a week?
Yeah. I mean, I know guys multi-tab, but that would mean ten videos a day for a school week. I'm no where near that.
 

Chiggs

Gold Member
I think one of the most insidious issues affecting young men nowadays is porn addiction. Bad news.
 
Oh another "men have lost there way" article.

Its not so much that men are falling behind, but that women are catching up.

Also wouldn't the fall of the middle class and tuition rates skyrocketing attribute to the point of lower graduation rates?


Oh yes the 1950s. A God given time of all men going to college, free of rapes and abuses, and truly only the most educated and high cultured succeeded.

When men went to school and studied to become such high profile cutting edge high status hard to do jobs such as factory workers, policemen, bartenders, and butchers.

Pretty much what I think. Although others on GAF with disagree, I'm sure, men and women are extremely different, behave different, and have different qualities, strengths and weaknesses. Politically correct bullshit is part of the problem with people wanting equality between apples and oranges.

Because that is factually false. Men and women really aren't that different in the grand scheme of things.


Zimbardo makes very good points in his video, and I think he's right. The answer really is, get out more, out of your comfort zone and connect with others in a real way.
Yes the 1950's and prior, men REALLY got out of their comfort zone.
 

Pollux

Member
Zimbardo is the man. Love that guy. He did a video series that we watched in Psych class back in high school and every single video, his grey hair, got blacker and blacker. That always amused me. That and when he talked about Rusty the Narcoleptic Dog.
 
Are you being facetious? The man is a world-renown expert in his field.

I know it's completely unfair to hold the past against him forever, and his later work and efforts are in many ways a response to that, but I also don't feel we should forget or ignore the past so easily. The Stanford prison experiment was extremely f-ed up. My comment is certainly more inflammatory and aggressive than it should be and his efforts in that situation (Abu Ghraib) were definitely a case of trying to help people understand. It's just ironic that it ended up being a case of having firsthand experience (admittedly on a much much less horrifying scale).
 
Wouldn't it be, men are stagnating and women are passing them?

Possibly. But women tend to not major in the same things men are. And when they start doing men run away from it and the major is devalued.


That's like asking if someone accounts for gender when looking at race.

I don't see how that isn't relevant to the point. Men are known to get "trapped in the system of violene and crime" more than women. Thus less likely to focus on education.


Is this image supposed to imply that each side is representative of its era's men? What a bunch of bullshit.

Well its true. All men dress in hipster jeans now, are all vegan, and don't know how to have sex with women. Prior to the 1960's men were strong, successful, with virtually no flaws at all. Didn't you watch Casablanca or any of those movies? But after that women and the other men started asking for rights and the whole thing crashed and burned. Inferior values, feminine values in other words, became contagious and spread like the plague. This is why America is falling behind in education and success compared to other countries like China.
 

Replicant

Member
Menthenandnow.jpg


Pretty much what I think. Although others on GAF with disagree, I'm sure, men and women are extremely different, behave different, and have different qualities, strengths and weaknesses. Politically correct bullshit is part of the problem with people wanting equality between apples and oranges.

No. You just sound like a nutjob. It's fucking easy to take pictures of different people who dress differently and make fun of them while generalizing the rest of male population. But you know damn well that there are also those who do not dress like that and are behaving in masculine way regardless of their sexual orientation or political/religious leanings.

Also, I'm fucking sick of people using 'political correctness' as an excuse of being sexist/bigoted toward others.
 
This comment does a much better job of explaining this trend than the video did:

Here’s an alternative point of view that isn’t based on the assumption males are incapable of self-actualization. And the radical assertion that males have emotions, and they care about more things than the score of the game and getting laid.

Perhaps what we’re witnessing is the post-feminist impact on the development of male progeny, in a society that hasn’t had a male liberation movement. Young boys today are shouldering the negative rhetoric from past archetypes. Women have rightfully found their voice in modern society, while young males are still searching for meaning in the void. Video games, porn and social media are the effect, not the cause. It’s escapism - not into fantasy but rather away from reality. The “social awkwardness” is simply young boys who have been raised to believe they are innately unworthy.

New technologies, in context, don’t hold any more sway than a naughty daguerreotype or the development of the telephone. While games have been an evolutionary necessity in the advancement of our species. Games are safe experiential learning.

Lets stop defining males by perceived deficiencies in their psychological make-up and redefine the male archetype based on the positive traits that have been suppressed or denied for generations. We will all be better for it.
 
This comment does a much better job of explaining this trend than the video did:

So essentially white guilt?

I think people are making things more complicated than they need to be. Men are "falling behind" because shortcomings of the United States parenting customs, class warfare, and males being more distracted than ever before (videogames, porn, Netflix). Not due to them being overwhelm with depression over 150,000 years of oppressing women.
 
Menthenandnow.jpg


Pretty much what I think. Although others on GAF with disagree, I'm sure, men and women are extremely different, behave different, and have different qualities, strengths and weaknesses. Politically correct bullshit is part of the problem with people wanting equality between apples and oranges.

Zimbardo makes very good points in his video, and I think he's right. The answer really is, get out more, out of your comfort zone and connect with others in a real way.

Gross, reductionist and annoying all around.
 
The War Against Boys?

Some of the clearest evidence of this vulnerability is the current "boy crisis" in schools. The evidence is overwhelming that boys of all ages are having trouble in school. They are underachieving academically, acting out behaviorally, and disengaging psychologically. Many are failing to develop those honorable traits we often associate with masculinity—responsibility, thoughtfulness, discipline. Boys drops out of school, are diagnosed as emotionally disturbed and commit suicide four times more often as girls; they get into fights twice as often. Boys are six times more likely to be diagnosed with Attention Deficit Disorder and Hyperactivity Disorder. They score consistently below girls on tests of reading and verbal skills and have lower class rank and fewer honors than girls.

Yet while everyone agrees that boys are in trouble, we don't necessarily agree on the source of the crisis and thus we strongly disagree about its remedies. To hear some tell it, the source of boys' problems is, in a word, girls, who have eclipsed boys in school achievement and honors, college admissions and attendance. This is not the fault of the girls themselves, others argue, but the fault of "misguided" feminists who, in their zeal to help girls get ahead, have so transformed elementary and secondary education as to make it a hostile environment for boys.

Boys seem to "have lost" out to girl power, and now "the wrong sex may be getting all of the attention in school." Pop psychologist Michael Gurian claims schools "feminize" boys, forcing active, healthy and naturally rambunctious boys to conform to a regime of obedience, giving them the message, he says, that 'boyhood is defective." Another pundit writes that "school is a terrible place for boys. In school they are trapped by "The Matriarchy" and are dominated by women who cannot accept boys as they are. The women teachers mainly wish to control and suppress boys."

By far the most sustain fusillade against feminist as the cause of boys' woes comes from Christina Hoff Sommers, formerly a philosophy professor and now a resident anti-feminist pundit at the American Enterprise Institute. In her 2000 book, The War Against Boys, Sommers claims that schools are an "inhospitable" environment for boys, where their natural propensities for rough and tumble play, competition, aggression and rambunctious violence are cast as social problems in the making. Efforts to transform boys, to constrain and curtail them, threaten time-tested and beneficial elements of masculinity and run counter to nature's plan. These differences, she argues, are "natural, healthy, and by implication, best left alone." The last four words of her book are "boys will be boys"—to my mind, the four most depressing words in educational policy discussions today. They imply such an abject resignation: Boys are such wild, predatory, aggressive animals that there is simply no point in trying to control them.

The idea that feminist reforms have lead to the decline of boyhood is both educationally unsound and politically untenable. It creates a false opposition between girls and boys, assuming that the educational reforms undertaken to enhance girls' educational opportunities have actually hindered boys' educational development. But these reforms—new initiatives, classroom reconfigurations, teacher training, increased attentiveness to students' processes and individual learning styles—actually enable larger numbers of students to get a better education, boys as well as girls. Further "gender stereotypes particularly those related to education", hurt both girls and boys, and so challenging those stereotypes and expressing less tolerance for school violence and bullying, and increased attention to violence at home, actually enables both boys and girls to feel safer at school.

What's more, the numbers themselves may be deceiving. First, more people—both male and female—are enrolling in college than ever before. Female rates are going up rather than male rates, but both are increasing. Second, while it's true that more women than men are enrolling in college, that discrepancy has more to do with race than with gender. Among middle and upper-income white students there is virtually no gender gap at all in college enrollments, which suggests that boys' suffering-at least the furring of the boys those pundits are talking about—isn't as widespread a disaster as they predict According to Jacqueline King at the American Council on Education, half of all middle and upper-income white high-school graduates going to college this year are male. (Book was published in 2008). What accounts for the gender gap are the statistics regarding working class, black, and Latino college students: In all three groups, women are far more likely than men, to go to college.

Taken from Guyland. I imagine there is a similar problem with high-school graduation rates.
 
...where is this from?

It's literally a comment from below the video? Ok. No.

You're dismissing it out of hand because it's not a published article? It's TED, not Youtube. The commentator is very much going on the same tract that Michael Kimmel has with Guyland. Saying "it's the porn and video games" is reductionist to the point of hilarity.

EDIT: Which Devo just beat me to.


These are two disparate points. One coming from a random nobody attempting to explain a scientific presentation. I'm going to take a wild guess and say it blends perfectly with your own ideology on the matter?
What the hell is your problem? It's a representation of a legitimate take on the issue that warrants being brought into the discussion.
 
Taken from Guyland. I imagine there is a similar problem with high-school graduation rates.

For fuck's sake. Are you trying to take Shanedus's place?


You're dismissing it out of hand because it's not a published article? It's TED, not Youtube.

TED once had talks about how in the future life will be like a video game because of microchips in Coke and they provided evidence from Avatar's stunning success solely due to its nature theme and how the iPad was universally hated and was going to crash and burn (this was like a few months prior to its release).

They have their stinkers.
 

rdrr gnr

Member
You're dismissing it out of hand because it's not a published article? It's TED, not Youtube. The commentator is very much going on the same tract that Michael Kimmel has with Guyland. Saying "it's the porn and video games" is reductionist to the point of hilarity.

EDIT: Which Devo just beat me to.



What the hell is your problem? It's a representation of a legitimate take on the issue that warrants being brought into the discussion.
From a purely social scientific perspective, attempting to account for the influence of feminism and female-empowerment on something like childhood development and graduation rates is nearly impossible. Rendering all "conclusions" speculative at best. Unless you have links that attempt to account for my concerns (similar correlations in other countries, perhaps) I remain unconvinced. And, of course, I view the "videos games and porn" argument as reductionist; I simply found disagreement elsewhere.
What the hell is your problem? It's a representation of a legitimate take on the issue that warrants being brought into the discussion.
Legitimate in the sense that it isn't outright nonsensical. I just don't buy anything that reads like a blog post.
 
You're dismissing it out of hand because it's not a published article? It's TED, not Youtube. The commentator is very much going on the same tract that Michael Kimmel has with Guyland. Saying "it's the porn and video games" is reductionist to the point of hilarity.

EDIT: Which Devo just beat me to.

Yeah in the book it talks about porn, technology, video games, sports talk as distractions/effects not causes of the issues themselves. They only serve as escapism or to reinforce gender stereotyping.
 

apana

Member
Menthenandnow.jpg


Pretty much what I think. Although others on GAF with disagree, I'm sure, men and women are extremely different, behave different, and have different qualities, strengths and weaknesses. Politically correct bullshit is part of the problem with people wanting equality between apples and oranges.

Zimbardo makes very good points in his video, and I think he's right. The answer really is, get out more, out of your comfort zone and connect with others in a real way.

You would have been better off leaving that ridiculous comparison pic out of it, what a joke.
 

Clevinger

Member
Menthenandnow.jpg


Pretty much what I think. Although others on GAF with disagree, I'm sure, men and women are extremely different, behave different, and have different qualities, strengths and weaknesses. Politically correct bullshit is part of the problem with people wanting equality between apples and oranges.

This has to be the dumbest post I've read all year.
 

RiccochetJ

Gold Member
That Elvis person. Shaking his hips. It's not right I tells ya. That so called Rock n' Roll will be the downfall of society! And don't get me started about his hair!
 

GoutPatrol

Forgotten in his cell
That Elvis person. Shaking his hips. It's not right I tells ya. That so called Rock n' Roll will be the downfall of society! And don't get me started about his hair!

Everything was just better back then! Look at these idyllic images from Life Magazine!
 

Sadsic

Member

homophobic

Some of the clearest evidence of this vulnerability is the current "boy crisis" in schools. The evidence is overwhelming that boys of all ages are having trouble in school. They are underachieving academically, acting out behaviorally, and disengaging psychologically. Many are failing to develop those honorable traits we often associate with masculinity—responsibility, thoughtfulness, discipline. Boys drops out of school, are diagnosed as emotionally disturbed and commit suicide four times more often as girls

DAMN YOU GENDER IM ALL OF THAT
 

Staccat0

Fail out bailed
Everything was just better back then! Look at these idyllic images from Life Magazine!

HEY MAN, THE 50's WERE GREAT AND MEN NOW ARE ALL PUSSIES I KNOW BECAUSE I:M ARGUING ABOUT IT ON THE INTERNET TRULY AN ACTIVITY ASSOCIATED WITH MANLY NO-BULLSHIT MEN.
KuGsj.gif


I love it when angry nerds pretend there were no hipsters in the 50s.
Motherfuckers, that shit started in the 20s.
 
Personally I'm getting two things out of this:

1. There's a larger issue at play with the advent of the internet. It's not just porn, or MMOs, or whatever. I'd argue that social networking, forums, imageboards, they fuel this addiction by presenting instantaneous new content, often catered to your personal tastes (whether by your interest or from people you know personally). Overall, it's an addiction to novelty. Nonstop F5's. I think this is a problem that affects women as well.

2. The addiction of novelty, coupled with the ability for internet-linked people to retreat into their own virtual bubbles through fantasy pursuits, is making men withdrawn from traditional pursuits. Never mind jokes about if the Holodeck is invented guys would never come back to the real world. We're already there.

I think 1. is more interesting than 2., because with 2. you get into all of these messy controversial issues about gender roles and so forth. I'm more curious as to finding out if the Internet- TV 2.0^2 EXXTREME- really is creating addiction to novelty and destroying our attention spans and the way we used to be able to think.

I'm tweaking out reloading this page just to see what the responses to this post are. Y'all better give me my fix with some delicious delicious discourse.
 

Staccat0

Fail out bailed
Clearly you arent a men unless you are shitting your pants from fear while in the trenches during a world war.

I had a long discussion with an old ass man the other day. It was surprisingly candid. He said he was a pilot in some war or another (PRETTY SURE it was WWII because he was old as hell) and started talking about how scary it was. He said he would not be able to sleep some nights from being scared sick. He talked about how some of his good friends died and how he felt guilty for being it was them and not him.
As the conversation winded down, he said that he was glad his grand-daughters were living in a time without a draft and when people could just do what they wanted.
He also told me that he thought republicans were going to turn the country into a theocracy... so maybe not completely profound, but I'd never had an old guy reassure me that shit was worse when he was a kid. He basically said the opposite.

EDIT: The sad part? he cornered me while I was trying to buy a poblano at the grocery store and started all this deep talk out of nowhere. He also told my wife that we would have smart children, so I'm assuming this means I'm ugly.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
Why are guys today less like the guys of their parents generation than any other generation before them?

Uh... equality and political correctness.

Hey... when you make it difficult for guys to be the naturally misogynistic jerks that they can be, and enhance the status of other groups within society... it's both less of a pull to be a hyper masculine guy and less of an opportunity to be that guy.

It's not just the good or the bad of that typical man that's fallen away - it's the entire idea; and both the positive and negative aspects of that have fallen by the wayside.

On the other hand, getting trapped in this no-mans-land, where there's still a tinge of the previous conception of masculinity and finding a new norm for what it means to be a guy is kinda tough.

Like, let's be honest here... I'd like to do the live at home dad thing if I could, but reality is, it's still a pretty rare thing. Even though ladies are rising up on the career ladder, and there are more of them in better paying positions than ever, society hasn't accepted the idea of these ladies picking male of lower social status to be their partners. Like the more powerful these women get, the more powerful their partners have to be too.

OTOH, a male doctor or lawyer going for a female nurse or receptionist - no one bats an eye at the thought.


In the long term, an equalizing and porosity of gender roles - such that we stop identifying the roles in gender terms - where things like house cleaning, cooking, taking care of children are on the same level as mowing the lawn, working a job, fixing stuff around the house as things people just do - is generally better for all of us.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
Why are guys today less like the guys of their parents generation than any other generation before them?

Uh... equality and political correctness.

Hey... when you make it difficult for guys to be the naturally misogynistic jerks that they can be, and enhance the status of other groups within society... it's both less of a pull to be a hyper masculine guy and less of an opportunity to be that guy.

It's not just the good or the bad of that typical man that's fallen away - it's the entire idea; and both the positive and negative aspects of that have fallen by the wayside.

On the other hand, getting trapped in this no-mans-land, where there's still a tinge of the previous conception of masculinity and finding a new norm for what it means to be a guy is kinda tough.

Like, let's be honest here... I'd like to do the live at home dad thing if I could, but reality is, it's still a pretty rare thing. Even though ladies are rising up on the career ladder, and there are more of them in better paying positions than ever, society hasn't accepted the idea of these ladies picking male of lower social status to be their partners. Like the more powerful these women get, the more powerful their partners have to be too.

OTOH, a male doctor or lawyer going for a female nurse or receptionist - no one bats an eye at the thought.


In the long term, an equalizing and porosity of gender roles - such that we stop identifying the roles in gender terms - where things like house cleaning, cooking, taking care of children are on the same level as mowing the lawn, working a job, fixing stuff around the house as things people just do - is generally better for all of us.

agree 100%, great post.

We've had a generation since the 70's pushing hard on 'equality' for women, and basically ignoring men, because they were already in the position of power. But there was an overemphasis on equality I think - by ignoring or negatively portraying men, you instill a sense of uncertainty on the generation of boys growing up.
 
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