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[HocusPocus]

I blame the porn.

 

[AlimNassor]

And he'd fuck your wife and you couldn't do anything about it.

These threads always make me wonder why the Internet seems to yearn for the 50s more than any other period. I see these "look/act/dress like don draper" posts everywhere. Nobody wants to be Henry VIII

I always see Don Draper as an example of the perfect man. But, he's horribly flawed and actually not a very good person. I guess people don't even watch the show.

 

[Dan Yo]

This is ridiculous. I'm just amazed that this question even has to be asked. My worldview that men will in general commit more acts of violence than women. And that it would be aimed at more men than women in general.

Women in America enjoy more rights, benefits, and societal privileges than men do for sure, and we do live in a culture that prides itself on the coddling of its women, but I don't think the risk of being beaten down is the best example for why Western women in general live longer and easier lives than men do.

Yes, women are more likely to be defended and protected when a threat occurs, but at the same time, I can't imagine it being much less stressful for them to go out into a world as the physically weaker sex.

 

[Apophenia Overload]

i want to be a renaissance man. human revolution here we come.

According to that Cracked article:

"For instance, despite the current stereotype that gay men are effeminate, during the Renaissance a big part of being "manly" was being bisexual."

I always see Don Draper as an example of the perfect man. But, he's horribly flawed and actually not a very good person. I guess people don't even watch the show.

What I want to see is who Don Draper considers to be the perfect man. A rugged G.I. Joe storming OMAHA beach? A poor doomed Tommy Boy dying in the trenches? Some fat cat industrialist during the Gilded Age? Oscar Wilde?

 

[Deified Data]

Women in America enjoy more rights, benefits, and societal privileges than men do for sure, and we do live in a culture that prides itself on the coddling of its women, but I don't think the risk of being beaten down is the best example for why Western women in general live longer and easier lives than men do.

Yes, women are more likely to be defended and protected when a threat occurs, but at the same time, I can't imagine it being much less stressful for them to go out into a world as the physically weaker sex.

Hoo boy, here we go.

 

[leadbelly]

Women in America enjoy more rights, benefits, and societal privileges than men do for sure, and we do live in a culture that prides itself on the coddling of its women, but I don't think the risk of being beaten down is the best example for why Western women in general live longer and easier lives than men do.

Yes, women are more likely to be defended and protected when a threat occurs, but at the same time, I can't imagine it being much less stressful for them to go out into a world as the physically weaker sex.

I don't think I was arguing that is the reason why women generally live longer.

On that specific thing, it was entirely subjective. Entirely based on my own life experiences growing up and thinking it would probably have been easier if I was female. It's not simply the act of being beat down, it is the whole bravado in general. Of course there could be men that have had an amazing life where nothing bad has ever happened. There could be women who have had far worse experiences than me.

Not to say my life has been that bad overall. Just certain experiences in life.

 

[Yoshiya]

My father was a man's man and my role model for what it meant to be masculine. He worked on cars in our driveway, fixed anything that broke around the house, and worked more than forty hours a week as a driller in the oilfield; man's work... To this day we don't have a good relationship. It's sad really, because she got so caught up in changing me because she didn't like the environment she grew up in that she pushed me completely away. I am inherently a man, and if you have a problem with that, which is something fundamental that I can't change, then you have a problem with me.

You are inherently a man in the sense that your biological sex is male, nothing more. Your father was as much a product of his cultural moment as the males of today. As for manual labour = "man's work", that's absurd. Machines' work, perhaps, which might get to the heart of this crisis of masculinity (that is, it's an empty concept to begin with).

Your mother was right. You have no inherent right to be what you are now (which seems, to put it mildly, unpleasant).

What I think a man and woman should be and represent are going to be different from the next person, and this is where the problem lies. Good or bad sixty years ago everyone new their role, there were no questions.

I do hope you're not inferring that this is a good thing. Why be defined by something as arbitrary as a single chromosome yet ignore 45 others? We're far, far more common than we are different; biological sex is a minor delineation of the human population.

I personally have a problem with the following:
Men who shave any other part of their body besides their face (grooming your junk is okay)
Men who don't know how to change their oil or a tire.
Men who spend more than 10 minutes getting ready to leave the house.
Men who don't know their way around a woman's body.
Men who would rather play the "game" than actually work for a position.
Men who gossip, back-stab, etc.
Are you a man if you don't fit my list? Technically yes, just not manly...

This is absurd (disclaimer: I'm a male who likes to communicate and write, walks or catches a bus, has a greater sexual interest in other males, spends some time considering himself in the mirror, enjoys a little gossip... basically I'm the product of the "male decline" of your nightmares). But hey, I'd rather be me than you, man's man who posts on a video game forum. Clinging to outmoded and restrictive (and sexist) notions of what it is to be male must be rather alienating given our present social trajectory. But whatever, I'm not saying you shouldn't be who you want to be. Just know that wanting to model yourself on a father who you perceive as the epitome of masculinity doesn't invalidate more progressive notions of gender held by others.

Edit: I should probably own up to a mild degree of misandry due to bad experiences with single-sex education. Adolescent male culture is just... ugh. I was never physically threatened or the like, but the overwhelming sense of dislocation made it clearer than ever how flawed these concepts are.

 

[squidyj]

Do you think those places are void of sexual harassment and assault or something? If the men are getting the shit beat out of them, what do you think happens to the women? Do you think they are spared violence? Do you just ignore the prevalence of domestic violence in these areas or what?

This is actually why I don't understand the specialized aproach to "violence against women". If you can make that sort of link between the two then how does separating and making a special case of one work to fully address anybody's situation?

 

[marrec]

Women in America enjoy more rights, benefits, and societal privileges than men do for sure, and we do live in a culture that prides itself on the coddling of its women, but I don't think the risk of being beaten down is the best example for why Western women in general live longer and easier lives than men do.

Yes, women are more likely to be defended and protected when a threat occurs, but at the same time, I can't imagine it being much less stressful for them to go out into a world as the physically weaker sex.

Nice troll attempt, I was clued off when I noticed that everything in your post resembles a giant pile of shit.

That shit looks uncomfortable.

This thread is pretty uncomfortable too. Maybe being a man is just uncomfortable.

 

[Plywood]

And he'd fuck your wife and you couldn't do anything about it.

These threads always make me wonder why the Internet seems to yearn for the 50s more than any other period. I see these "look/act/dress like don draper" posts everywhere. Nobody wants to be Henry VIII

That shit looks uncomfortable.

 

[Mumei]

You are inherently a man in the sense that your biological sex is male, nothing more. Your father was as much a product of his cultural moment as the males of today. As for manual labour = "man's work", that's absurd. Machines' work, perhaps, which might get to the heart of this crisis of masculinity (that is, it's an empty concept to begin with).

Your mother was right. You have no inherent right to be what you are now (which seems, to put it mildly, unpleasant).

I do hope you're not inferring that this is a good thing. Why be defined by something as arbitrary as a single chromosome yet ignore 45 others? We're far, far more common than we are different; biological sex is a minor delineation of the human population.

This is absurd (disclaimer: I'm a male who likes to communicate and write, walks or catches a bus, has a greater sexual interest in other males, spends some time considering himself in the mirror, enjoys a little gossip... basically I'm the product of the "male decline" of your nightmares). But hey, I'd rather be me than you, man's man who posts on a video game forum. Clinging to outmoded and restrictive (and sexist) notions of what it is to be male must be rather alienating given our present social trajectory. But whatever, I'm not saying you shouldn't be who you want to be. Just know that wanting to model yourself on a father who you perceive as the epitome of masculinity doesn't invalidate more progressive notions of gender held by others.

Edit: I should probably own up to a mild degree of misandry due to bad experiences with single-sex education. Adolescent male culture is just... ugh. I was never physically threatened or the like, but the overwhelming sense of dislocation made it clearer than ever how flawed these concepts are.

This is a perfect response. Almost took the words right out of my mouth (save the parts about mild misandry (I haven't experienced it) and never being physically threatened (I have)), except you said it better than I would have. <3

 

[freenudemacusers]

That shit looks uncomfortable.

I'm sure you can get one made of a nice silk/Lycra mix.

 

[Onemic]

LOL that a dude that allowed the murdering of people in the name of psychology is talking about the failure of men.

 

[Yoshiya]

Holding up a generation of men with PTSD as the model for the modern male is the real problem of forgiving the 50s so readily (and, you know, the rest of what society as achieved in the past half-century).

This is a perfect response. Almost took the words right out of my mouth (save the parts about mild misandry (I haven't experienced it) and never being physically threatened (I have)), except you said it better than I would have. <3

Thanks, I never know after I've finished a long-ish post whether it was worth the effort. My stream-of-consciousness arguments usually end up so incoherent as to only make sense to me.

Edit: That was an ugly sentence.

 

[AnathemicOne]

Women in America enjoy more rights, benefits, and societal privileges than men do for sure, and we do live in a culture that prides itself on the coddling of its women, but I don't think the risk of being beaten down is the best example for why Western women in general live longer and easier lives than men do.

Yes, women are more likely to be defended and protected when a threat occurs, but at the same time, I can't imagine it being much less stressful for them to go out into a world as the physically weaker sex.

Dat troll

 

[Mumei]

Exalting the 50s as some golden era of men is particularly problematic as it's ultimately holding up as a model a generation of men with PTSD.


Thanks, I never know after I've finished a long-ish post whether it was worth the effort. My stream-of-consciousness arguments usually end up so incoherent as to only make sense to me.

That was stream of consciousness?

I'm impressed, really. When I do a long post, I have to edit and edit and edit until I get the phrasing right-ish. It's probably why I'm not a good off-the-cuff speaker.

 

[Yoshiya]

That was stream of consciousness?

I'm impressed, really. When I do a long post, I have to edit and edit and edit until I get the phrasing right-ish. It's probably why I'm not a good off-the-cuff speaker.

In the sense that I decided I'd respond and then hit the keyboard until I clicked post. Like most of the essays I submit, haha. They often keep their rough edges. Perhaps my only personal talent is that I'm surprisingly good at covering up lack of substance when prompted to speak my mind on something - not a bad skill to have.

That shit looks uncomfortable.

Probably more accommodating than certain clothing of today. Trying to run in skinny jeans is the true meaning of suffering (much like being facetious is the best response to suffering).

 

[AlphaDump]

Being a man, I have learned, is striving for personal integrity regardless of who is looking, while remaining objective in opinion. Aiming to be top shelf, not to be top dog, not striving to be alpha, but a person who is willing to run a mile to gain an inch. This applies to work, family and your personal life.

 

[Yoshiya]

Being a man, I have learned, is striving for personal integrity regardless of who is looking, while remaining objective in opinion. Aiming to be top shelf, not to be top dog, not striving to be alpha, but a person who is willing to run a mile to gain an inch. This applies to work, family and your personal life.

Not trying to suggest that this sentiment is not commendable - but why do we even need a model of what it it is to be a man or woman as distinct from being adult?

 

[Sai-kun]

I personally have a problem with the following:
Men who shave any other part of their body besides their face (grooming your junk is okay)
Men who don't know how to change their oil or a tire.
Men who spend more than 10 minutes getting ready to leave the house.
Men who don't know their way around a woman's body.
Men who would rather play the "game" than actually work for a position.
Men who gossip, back-stab, etc.
Are you a man if you don't fit my list? Technically yes, just not manly...

ha ha ha oh wow.png

wow, dude.

edit: thinking about it, i guess my mom is pretty manly by your standards because all the stuff i know about fixing shit, i learned from her. go mom! she probably should have just stuck to cooking and cleaning though, right dude? She needs to know her role, after all.

 

[Beerman462]

I just want to comment on the changing tires/oil fixing stuff around the house posts. It's not about manliness it's about being self sufficient. I have two daughters and I want them to learn these things. My wife has them help rake leaves and we pay a small allowance. I think my oldest is better with money then me hehe. When something doesn't work my wife just kind of shrugs and gives up(probably because she knows I'll fix it). When I have to things don't work and need fixed I show my daughters what I'm doing and how I troubleshoot problems. I'm going to teach them to drive stick too. Because I impersonally love it and I don't want them to be limited to an automatic just because they never learned.

 

[leadbelly]

This is actually why I don't understand the specialized aproach to "violence against women". If you can make that sort of link between the two then how does separating and making a special case of one work to fully address anybody's situation?

Well, perhaps it all boils down to them being the weaker sex (physically). It is true though that special attention is given to violence against women. Perhaps there should be an attempt to raise awareness to men's issues. How the hell you do that though I don't know, as violence against men is perpetrated by other men. I'm not sure what approach you would use.

The fact remains though, most acts of violence are against men. This is a fact even stated on studies specifically focused on women.

Popular images of women as victims in violent crime have probably strayed far from reality. Rather than a mature women attacked by strangers in alley ways, the average female victim is young (often a child), poor, and a passing aquaintance of the attacker. The perpetrator is most likely an older male of the same race, with a past history of violence toward others. Further, women are not the most common victims of violence, most violence is committed by men on other males.

The average victim of violent acts is a male attacked by another male (Ringel, 1997). The only type of violence where women are more frequently victimized than males is sexual assault (Greenfield, 1997).

I'm not trying to downplay the seriousness of those issues when it comes to women, it's just that this is very much a serious issue for men as well, considering they are the ones most effected by it. It is very much an issue that needs to be tackled.

http://www.feministjournal.com/women_as_victims.html

 

[Yoshiya]

This; and the fact we promoted the concept of the single mother (who CANNOT mold a boy into a man, regardless of what any feminist or feminism-supporter wants to believe). Many boys lacked a true male role model in their life and suffered for it, instead hearing the Cosmopolitan-like drivel from his mother (and possibly her female circle too).

This is probably the worst post of the thread, ugh. Incidentally, the last time I heard the phrase "mould boys into men" was from the administration of my old boys' school. The whole lot of them were too busy talking out of their own arses to remember that their students needed to be people, first and foremost.

And hey, my father is present and we have no reason to be particularly estranged; my family has only been supportive, for the most part. I still talk to my mother more though - amazingly, people are different beyond their gender labels. Imagine that.

 

[Zaptruder]

Well, perhaps it all boils down to them being the weaker sex (physically). It is true though that special attention is given to violence against women. Perhaps there should be an attempt to raise awareness to men's issues. How the hell you do that though I don't know, as violence against men is perpetrated by other men. I'm not sure what approach you would use.

The fact remains though, most acts of violence are against men. This is a fact even stated on studies specifically focused on women.





I'm not trying to downplay the seriousness of those issues when it comes to women, it's just that this is very much a serious issue for men as well, considering they are the ones most effected by it. It is very much an issue that needs to be tackled.

http://www.feministjournal.com/women_as_victims.html

Man on man violence is just a fight. That's what boys do.

/facetious

 

[AlphaDump]

Not trying to suggest that this sentiment is not commendable - but why do we even need a model of what it it is to be a man or woman as distinct from being adult?

I don't think a model is needed. I just think "being a man" or "manning up", is about realizing that working hard doesn't necessarily guarantee success, but by trying, you limit your chances of failure. Not lying to yourself and justifying something you deserve will only manifest that entitlement.

This applies more to the young and the old, not man or woman. By realizing that sometimes people get ahead in life regardless of their effort or age is an important lesson that I think many people have a hard time realizing, if ever.

 

[Yoshiya]

This applies more to the young and the old, not man or woman. By realizing that sometimes people get ahead in life regardless of their effort or age is an important lesson that I think many people have a hard time realizing, if ever.

Agreed. I'm just wary of gendered semantics making these discussions harder than they should be.

 

[TheRagnCajun]

Just wanted to say that the stats are a big surprise to me. My observation has been that there are far fewer female managers, fewer female workers, and lower graduation rates.

I guess thats all based on the discipline/industry I'm in.

I figured we were approaching a state of equality, but with women still behind.

 

[Ceekus]

You are inherently a man in the sense that your biological sex is male, nothing more. Your father was as much a product of his cultural moment as the males of today. As for manual labour = "man's work", that's absurd. Machines' work, perhaps, which might get to the heart of this crisis of masculinity (that is, it's an empty concept to begin with).

Your mother was right. You have no inherent right to be what you are now (which seems, to put it mildly, unpleasant).


I do hope you're not inferring that this is a good thing. Why be defined by something as arbitrary as a single chromosome yet ignore 45 others? We're far, far more common than we are different; biological sex is a minor delineation of the human population.


This is absurd (disclaimer: I'm a male who likes to communicate and write, walks or catches a bus, has a greater sexual interest in other males, spends some time considering himself in the mirror, enjoys a little gossip... basically I'm the product of the "male decline" of your nightmares). But hey, I'd rather be me than you, man's man who posts on a video game forum. Clinging to outmoded and restrictive (and sexist) notions of what it is to be male must be rather alienating given our present social trajectory. But whatever, I'm not saying you shouldn't be who you want to be. Just know that wanting to model yourself on a father who you perceive as the epitome of masculinity doesn't invalidate more progressive notions of gender held by others.

Edit: I should probably own up to a mild degree of misandry due to bad experiences with single-sex education. Adolescent male culture is just... ugh. I was never physically threatened or the like, but the overwhelming sense of dislocation made it clearer than ever how flawed these concepts are.

I kept feeling as though I needed to post in this thread until I read this. Thank you for your perfectly articulated argument.

 

[Esiquio]

Well this is coming from a christian perspective so I'm sure some will take it with a grain of salt.

1. In relation to our relationships with women one of the huge problems is pornography. It's easy to access, it's free, and the girls are hotter than average girls you meet. It's a huge problem and part of it is societies message that marriage isn't necessary, and a lack of emphasis on long term, committed relationships. Nowadays most people who are together simply "live together" and thus really aren't as committed to each other as possible. This goes hand in hand with a lot of the media's focus on women as "objects". Rarely do we see long-term relationships valued or shown positively. This is also driven in part by our extremely sexual culture. Everything we consume is all about sex.

2. Helicopter parenting. Boys today play videogames as a sort of release. They're not allowed to go explore, run and around crazy and be boys. Similar to that fight club line of a generation raised by women, boys need time to get dirty, to fight, to wrestle, to go on adventures. This goes hand in hand with a education system that is essentially built for girls. So much time is spent sitting down, and being static when boys want to get hands on and dive into things and expend some energy.

I also feel like leadership and involvement is rarely stressed upon men. We've grown into this man-boy culture where men don't move out of the house, (economics is a factor) go out and try to sleep with women, and are simply always focused on their needs. Men historically have always been the breadwinners, but more than that, providers and leaders. Now a days my generation is solely focused on themselves and not on a family of their own, their community or even society at large.

Pretty rambily but some of my basic thoughts on some problems.

This is a very good post, you make some really good points, and hit on problems that I see first-hand everyday.

 

[eastmen]

Its very simple to fix .

Phase out programs that favor women. They are no longer needed , in schools women are just as capable of men at learning and the majority of gender barriers are broken ( the ones left are ones that men need to break through not women)

After that you need to seperate the boys and girls in the core subjects . There have been many studies showing that boys are better suited at learning diffrent subjects at diffrent times of their lives vs girls. This would benefit both boys and girls. You can put them back together for gym , arts and other classes but the core should be seperated.

Start making strong Role models for young boys.

Look at the harry potter books , one of the biggest role models for young males. You have Ron the bumbling idiot and you have Harry only getting by because of other people. The only one that does well in school is the girl in the book.

This is spread across all forms of media .

 

[Onemic]

Its very simple to fix .

Phase out programs that favor women. They are no longer needed , in schools women are just as capable of men at learning and the majority of gender barriers are broken ( the ones left are ones that men need to break through not women)

After that you need to seperate the boys and girls in the core subjects . There have been many studies showing that boys are better suited at learning diffrent subjects at diffrent times of their lives vs girls. This would benefit both boys and girls. You can put them back together for gym , arts and other classes but the core should be seperated.

Start making strong Role models for young boys.

Look at the harry potter books , one of the biggest role models for young males. You have Ron the bumbling idiot and you have Harry only getting by because of other people. The only one that does well in school is the girl in the book.

This is spread across all forms of media .

And what programs are these?

 

[Sanky Panky]

Not trying to suggest that this sentiment is not commendable - but why do we even need a model of what it it is to be a man or woman as distinct from being adult?

Model or not, "male" behavior as opposed to "female" behavior has clear roles in the selection of reproductive partners as a species. It's perfectly normal to try to identify the male traits that are attractive to women, and vice-versa.

 

[Davidion]

Caveat: going to be rambling a bit here.

I think there are heaps of blame to assign on both sides of the gender fence for perceived gender role deficiencies. There are, for the lack of a better term off of the top of my head, alpha advocacy zeitgeists for both genders that have become parodies of themselves at various points throughout recent history. The male advocate doesn't understand that traditional masculinity doesn't need to be followed to a T to build a healthy male life, or social relationships for that matter. Whereas the female advocate has risen to counter-balance the male, but doesn't seem to understand at times that it's a constantly shifting balance that they're aiming for and not some universal zero-sum equality.

What ends up happening is that you essentially have alphas from both genders doing the shoving match back and forth based on what they want, both stupidly neglecting the fact that there are oceans of non-alphas of both genders that require different influences and encouragement in order to develop properly. The pendulum swings back and forth, and right now from a larger social perspective it happens to have swung to the female side in many ways, and I think that's why you're seeing all of this distress over the issues of male identity.

To be blunt, I think that Zimbardo's observations can be described along the same lines as typical arguments over what gender roles should be: stupid, unadaptive, and shallow. Somehow, it seems that no thought leader can, for one single blasted second, vocally suggest that we start raising our children by recognizing some base differences in biological tendencies and from there, encourage and help them grow by finding then developing their unique strengths. Shit like porn and video games do have their impact; I often don't even love their impact on myself personally. But quite frankly, I see them as nothing but cheap and easy scapegoats. We live in a world where there is pretty more information and knowledge available at our fingertips than to any of our predecessors. With this comes unprecedented information about the absolute wealth of substance and options we have available to us and perhaps what's more exciting and terrifying, exactly where we are in this world and how insignificant we can be. We literally have full understanding of exactly how how significant AND insignificant one person can be in impacting the world around them.

Just maybe. our abundance of options is why people aren't following traditional gender roles anymore. And just maybe, the fact that our society has failed to adapt our education and perceptions to the pace at which itself is evolving is why we have people failing to keep up. If I had a message for those pointing fingers at what's happening with our youths, I'd suggest that maybe they ought to stop trying to raise their kids to be like them and help them figure out themselves instead.

 

[Macmanus]

These threads always make me wonder why the Internet seems to yearn for the 50s more than any other period. I see these "look/act/dress like don draper" posts everywhere. Nobody wants to be Henry VIII

I kind of think that's it. A lot of fetishising a male dominated society and trying to find a solution or genesis to a problem that doesn't actually exist.

Society is changing. Gender roles are evolving. If there really is a problem, it's a growing pain.

 

[speculawyer]

Our problem? We each walk around with enough sperm in our balls to impregnate every woman in the country. That and the testosterone drive us crazy.

 

[Arcane Hayter]

*clip*Edit: I should probably own up to a mild degree of misandry due to bad experiences with single-sex education. Adolescent male culture is just... ugh. I was never physically threatened or the like, but the overwhelming sense of dislocation made it clearer than ever how flawed these concepts are.

I hate to clip any of what you just said, but there was a lot of it, it makes some very valid points.

Lots of people have made some good points and opened my eyes a bit. Nothing I've posted should be taken as an attack on anyone. That's not how I roll. If you knew me out in the real world you would never hear any of my more controversial opinions.

My post has caught a lot of flack. I'll be the first to admit that I'm old school, and it's pretty late in the game to completely change my views. I've always believed that people should be free to express themselves however they want and lead their life the way they want. Just because I happen to have this set of beliefs doesn't mean I walk down the street berating people who don't fit my mold. I don't tell my daughters who to date and I've never tried to mold them or anyone else into anything other than a responsible and compassionate adult.

One of my daughter's close friends (who is a boy, and supposedly has ADHD) is growing up without a father. He recently bought his first car and has no idea how to maintain it. If I have him come to my house and I give him pointers and show him how to work on it, am I perpetuating gender roles? I want to help the guy out.

Basically I'm honestly asking how do I reach out to a younger guy who might need some direction without blocking the way to gender equality in the process?

 

[Macmanus]

One of my daughter's close friends (who is a boy, and supposedly has ADHD) is growing up without a father. He recently bought his first car and has no idea how to maintain it. If I have him come to my house and I give him pointers and show him how to work on it, am I perpetuating gender roles? I want to help the guy out.

Basically I'm honestly asking how do I reach out to a younger guy who might need some direction without blocking the way to gender equality in the process?

You volunteering to help him work on his car is just an honestly nice thing to do. Gender rolls have little to do with this. Just ask him if he wants help.

I know little about cars - mainly because I dislike them. I love my bike and biking in general. I live and work in an urban setting where it's possible to bike everywhere I need to. Yet I own a car because it is an occasional necessity. My girlfriend's father would regularly assist me with car maintenance, and we would often work on her car together. I never though "Man, this guy is trying to ram gender stereotypes down my throat!" He was just being an awesome helpful dude - and I in turn enjoyed the learning experience.

The main thing to realize is that with a modern society - most gender rolls are becoming antiquated - or at least they're necessity is antiquated. There is still nothing wrong with guys working on cars and women cooking in the kitchen. It's the line of thought that this is the way it should be that is flawed.

 

[Inanna]

Whoever said boys need a manly father to teach them how to be a "man" was talking out of his arse. And dear god, by that definition I'm the most MALIEST woman ever because I can do most of the things in that list. I know a lot about cars, I can change tires, I can fix stuff around the house (learnt from my eldest sister), my mum taught me how to manage finances and credit. Everything I know was taught to me by my mum, sisters and brother, father died when I was young. My fiance was brought up by a very "MANLY" ex RAF (british air force) but still he's not that great with finances and can be a bit lazy sometimes. Guess his father failed to teach him how to be a man.

 

[Seraphinianus]

Basically I'm honestly asking how do I reach out to a younger guy who might need some direction without blocking the way to gender equality in the process?

Start by not thinking this way, unless you recognize some horrible misogynistic tendency within yourself. Do what feels right to you.

 

[Chaplain]

I think the demise of men is summed up perfectly by David Guzik:

Since the 1970’s, our culture has rejected the idea that there may be different roles for men and women in the home, in the professional world, or in the church. But the cultural challenge must be seen in its true context - not just a struggle between men and women, but as a struggle with the issue of authority in general. Since the 1960’s, there has been a massive change in the way we see and accept authority.

Citizens do not have the same respect for government’s authority.
Students do not have the same respect for teacher’s authority.
Women do not have the same respect for men’s authority.
Children do not have the same respect for parental authority.
Employees do not have the same respect for their employer’s authority.
People do not have the same respect for the police’s authority.
Christians no longer have the same respect for church authority.

There are not many who would say that these changes have been good. Generally, people do not feel safer and there is less confidence in the culture. Television and other entertainment get worse and worse. In fact, our society is presently in, and rushing towards, complete anarchy - the state where no authority is accepted, and the only thing that matters is what one wants to do.

It is fair to describe our present moral state as one of anarchy. There is no moral authority in our culture. When it comes to morality, the only thing that matters is what one wants to do. And in a civil sense, many neighborhoods in our nation are given over to anarchy. The government’s authority is not accepted in gang-infested portions of our cities. The only thing that matters is what one wants to do.

Our culture, having rejected the idea in a difference in role between men and women, now rejects the idea of any difference between men and women. The driving trends in our culture point towards men who are more like women, and women who are more like men. Styles, clothes, perfumes, and all the rest promote this thought.

The failure of men to lead in the home and in the church, and to lead in the way Jesus would lead, has been a chief cause of the rejection of male authority - and is inexcusable.

 

[Stet]

I think the demise of men is summed up perfectly by David Guzik:

boy, that guy sounds like a real asshole.


they'll just do ted talks on anything these days, huh?

 

[beelzebozo]

oh no, less respect for church authority!!!!

 

[The Anti-Monitor]

I think the demise of men is summed up perfectly by David Guzik:

What an asshole.

 

[Yoshiya]

Women do not have the same respect for men’s authority.

If you're invoking a concept of "men's authority" then you're sexist. There is no such thing. You are wrong, unambiguously.

This didn't even deserve a response.

 

[Mercury Fred]

I think the demise of men is summed up perfectly by David Guzik:

That is hysterical! Thanks for the laugh

 

[leadbelly]

If you're invoking a concept of "men's authority" then you're sexist. There is no such thing. You are wrong, unambiguously.

This didn't even deserve a response.

Pretty shitty authority as well if you ask me. Whisked off to war where millions of them died. His duty as a 'man'. I'm all for women on the front line actually. I remember all that shit about whether women should be on the front line. Get them on the front line.

 

[Seraphinianus]

Pretty shitty authority as well if you ask me. Whisked off to war where millions of them died. His duty as a 'man'. I'm all for women on the front line actually. I remember all that shit about whether women should be on the front line. Get them on the front line.

the front line should be 50% men, 50% women, with equal representation among all races, ethnicities, and religions. It should be like wal-mart advertisement diversity of front lines.

 

[Ivan A Nguyen]

I haven't given much thought of how I want to raise my son into a man. My dad is coming over to the house today and my wife always stresses because she feels he is critical of how we keep our house and yard. I freely admit he's judgmental, but try to tell her not to sweat it because his opinion doesn't matter.

Still every time he visits she wants the house clean so I help out on my days off while I watch my son. This week I vacuumed the 1st floor of our house, mopped the kitchen, cleaned up all the surfaces, and clean the microwave. As a treat, because the less stressed she is the better my life is, I also cooked her dinner on the final day. Her comment when she got home was to say I was so domestic.

She's always been one to think that house hold cleaning was women's work. I've developed the school of thought that as long as I do it right and not half assed, then it's as manly as anything else I could be doing. To me, manliness is tied to having pride in the work I do.

I've fixed leaky toilets in my home, replaced fence posts in my back yard, and mowed the law. I've also done the laundry, the dishes, and the household shopping. I take care of my son for most of the week. I'm the only dad at my son's weekly play group. The rest are their with their mothers or grandmothers. Never once have I felt that this reflects poorly on me as a man.

Being a 'man', or being a 'woman', is defined in the pride you take in your actions and that will never go away.

 

[RobotNinjaHornets]

I think the demise of men is summed up perfectly by David Guzik:

ANARCHY D:

 

[Slayven]

I think having a close male role model is important in boy's life. It's one of the big reasons the black community went to shit.