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[Flying_Phoenix]

Well, up to now, both of these are still true. But they have various other advantages.

Could you please further explain.

 

[Datschge]

Could you please further explain.

Smaller, less power usage, no moving parts? And the way flash sizes are increasing and prices are falling they may very well rival disk sizes above DVDs in a year's time (not that that's really needed on portables anyway).

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Yeah, I'm not sure how things differ for read-only variants, but I could buy a microSD card that could hold twice as much data as a UMD for maybe five bucks today.

 

[charlequin]

Well more than 300 million $ in R&D might give them some insight on how to build the infrastructure.

There are basically two problems here. One is that building an online infrastructure isn't really a "throw money at it" problem, it's a system-design problem. You need to understand the challenges involved, the use cases for the customer, and what exactly you are offering the customer as part of your service and why. Nintendo doesn't have people with these competencies on-board right now and it's not just a matter of throwing money at the problem to bring them into being -- they need people who have experience building these systems. Since I doubt they're going to poach Sony people (or put together a Western team to handle this) that pretty much leaves developing an internal team, and no such team is going to be qualified to build a full-on network to support this sort of thing without some seasoning and baby steps.

That leads into the second issue: Nintendo is behind in online functionality because they don't really believe in it. It's clear from their statements that they consider online play less important than in-person, don't consider online purchases as a major element of the platform, etc. An organization operating with those principles is not going to dedicate itself to adopting a pure online distribution strategy. (Compare Sony, who made online a huge focus of the PSP and PS3 and have worked very hard to catch up with Microsoft after last generation.)

Yeah, I'm not sure how things differ for read-only variants, but I could buy a microSD card that could hold twice as much data as a UMD for maybe five bucks today.

Yeah, flash is getting cheaper and cheaper. It shouldn't be hard to provide sufficient capability by the time this successor rolls around.

 

[brain_stew]

Yeah, I'm not sure how things differ for read-only variants, but I could buy a microSD card that could hold twice as much data as a UMD for maybe five bucks today.

That's retail and in single unit quantities as well. You order 100,000 units at a time and watch that price collapse significantly. Flash is the only sensible option.

 

[Grampa Simpson]

That's retail and in single unit quantities as well. You order 100,000 units at a time and watch that price collapse significantly. Flash is the only sensible option.

Are we talking flash or mask rom for physical distribution?

 

[radioheadrule83]

There are basically two problems here. One is that building an online infrastructure isn't really a "throw money at it" problem, it's a system-design problem. You need to understand the challenges involved, the use cases for the customer, and what exactly you are offering the customer as part of your service and why. Nintendo doesn't have people with these competencies on-board right now and it's not just a matter of throwing money at the problem to bring them into being -- they need people who have experience building these systems. Since I doubt they're going to poach Sony people (or put together a Western team to handle this) that pretty much leaves developing an internal team, and no such team is going to be qualified to build a full-on network to support this sort of thing without some seasoning and baby steps.

I don't really agree with this. The online system on Wii isn't as a result of Nintendo knowing jack shit about network gaming, I suspect its more to do with them trying to make it as cheap to implement and streamline across their hardware as possible.

I think the friend code and match making system on Wii is simply a derivative of the one they had set up for DS -- and to be honest, the fc system made a little more sense and didn't matter as much on that platform. Once they went down that road for Wii the genie was out of the bottle and there was no going back. Wii doesn't have a hypervisor that persists while games are loaded, and the ability to apply hotfixes to games is a relative novelty on the Wii. The technology solution for both online systems was GameSpy based I believe...

They certainly have the talent on board and the clout to attract more suitable talent to build a better system. I can imagine online middleware vendors (like GameSpy this gen) would probably relish the chance to boss over an entire system... We have to remember that prior to Wii and PS3s launch, Xbox Live was the only game in town as far as cohesive overarching online facilities are concerned. I doubt that they will have sat through this generation, and seen the popularity of stay-resident OS', buddy lists, voice chat, and all that hoopla... next-gen their online network will be better. They might not nail everything, but I think they'll have a fair few features in check, more than a lot of people might expect.

 

[justchris]

you got that very wrong. a chip may contain as many 'units' as the designer pleases (tegra has eight).

also, the article is somewhat misleading: the current dsi _is_ a one-chip design. it's a SoC (system-on-a-chip), plus the obligatory memory chips and a radio module, plus two small companions. likely, tegra will offer one of those two companion chips as integrated (it's some kind of sound codec chip, i belive it does the aac playback). i.e. from the current SoC + flash + ram + radio + two companion, tegra will offer: SoC + flash + ram + radio + one companion (likely, but they may integrate that too). but it will never be one physical chip in the system per se.

Ah. Well, I bow to your superior knowledge in the hardware space. I thought it was a significant point, but it seems it isn't. However, the rumor does specifically imply that Nvidia offered Nintendo something no other competitor was either capable or willing to offer. The only question is, was Nvidia able to meet Nintendo's price.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

That's retail and in single unit quantities as well. You order 100,000 units at a time and watch that price collapse significantly. Flash is the only sensible option.

I know that I may get really snarky replies by asking this, but...going by this would it be possible for Nintendo to use Flash for the Wii's successor instead of discs?

 

[justchris]

I know that I may get really snarky replies by asking this, but...going by this would it be possible for Nintendo to use Flash for the Wii's successor instead of discs?

Possible? Yes. How likely it is depends on a host of factors. Is Nintendo willing to spring for Blu-ray? What media formats will be viable and worthwhile at the point Nintendo is ready to move on the Wii2? Will this holographic storage thing pan out? What sizes of flash storage can they order in bulk, and more importantly, what sizes would they need for 3rd parties to fit their games? Can they get their own proprietary format that is subsequently difficult to copy?

I think, if they can get holographic storage working efficiently and cheaply enough, and do it before it becomes widely used, they very well may go with that simply because it'll make piracy too difficult to be worth it.

 

[Grampa Simpson]

I know that I may get really snarky replies by asking this, but...going by this would it be possible for Nintendo to use Flash for the Wii's successor instead of discs?

If they could make a 8 gig cart for $2, then it would probably be worth it to them to eat the additional cost for the performance gain, but I somehow don't expect that we'll see that.

I also think they'll want to be able to tout backwards compatibility as a selling point for the system. Going from discs to carts kills that feature.

A good point for the use of a cart instead of a drive would be a reduced system cost. With a cart all you need is contacts - you can completely skip the motor.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

If they could make a 8 gig cart for $2, then it would probably be worth it to them to eat the additional cost for the performance gain, but I somehow don't expect that we'll see that.

I also think they'll want to be able to tout backwards compatibility as a selling point for the system. Going from discs to carts kills that feature.

A good point for the use of a cart instead of a drive would be a reduced system cost. With a cart all you need is contacts - you can completely skip the motor.

Maybe the Nintendo could sell backwards compatibility drive for the system separately? After all the Classic Controller is sold separately and it's nearly a key feature for the Wii.

 

[justchris]

If they could make a 8 gig cart for $2, then it would probably be worth it to them to eat the additional cost for the performance gain, but I somehow don't expect that we'll see that.

I also think they'll want to be able to tout backwards compatibility as a selling point for the system. Going from discs to carts kills that feature.

A good point for the use of a cart instead of a drive would be a reduced system cost. With a cart all you need is contacts - you can completely skip the motor.

Ooooh, that means quieter and less heat produced as well. And with carts holding 8GB of info probably still being about the size of an SD card, that means even smaller form factor (I think nearly 1/4 of the Wii's volume is disc drive). Nintendo's got to love that.

 

[sfried]

That leads into the second issue: Nintendo is behind in online functionality because they don't really believe in it. It's clear from their statements that they consider online play less important than in-person, don't consider online purchases as a major element of the platform, etc. An organization operating with those principles is not going to dedicate itself to adopting a pure online distribution strategy. (Compare Sony, who made online a huge focus of the PSP and PS3 and have worked very hard to catch up with Microsoft after last generation.)

There's a flaw in your argument: If Nintendo doesn't really believe in online, then why push for Virtual Console/WiiWare and eventually DSiWare in their consoles? I'm pretty certain they are agressive in online support, but as another has just said, I think they're approaching it from another angle. They could easily build an infostructure similar to MS and Sony's. The big question is: Why didn't they? While the most obvious reason might be "teh kiddiez", but something else might have made them consider taking the GameSpy route. Likewise, the deal with nVidia only brings more questions than answers since it's not quite within the mold of the whole Gunpei Yokoi philosophy of "off-the-shelf" simplicity yet very effective. The single-chip solution could be a clue, but again, it's just wild mass guessing at this point.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

I also think they'll want to be able to tout backwards compatibility as a selling point for the system. Going from discs to carts kills that feature.

So what you're saying is the disc drive will be gone from the third version of the system.

 

[Vagabundo]

Well their R&D spending for the past few years has been through the roof, they must be spending it on something: possibly gold swivel chairs for Iwata...

I'm expecting something interesting from then next (handheld) gen...

 

[madara]

Depth Perception coming off the screen.

 

[M3d10n]

Are we talking flash or mask rom for physical distribution?

Only DS games smaller than 512MBit use mask rom, anything bigger uses one-time programmable EPROM (but some 512Mbit games use MROM). I don't know if they have begun using other techs in DS carts.

Nintendo's next handheld *will* use solid-state media, that can't be argued (they're not crazy to go download-only and lose all those retail sales and won't go optical). Which tech they'll use is another question.

Since the DS carts use a serial interface, Nintendo can use whatever storage technology they can fit inside it and still keep the same form factor, enabling backwards compatibility. The DS can have up to 4 GByte carts (maximum addressable memory using a 32-bit address).

 

[Bluemercury]

Well their R&D spending for the past few years has been through the roof, they must be spending it on something: possibly gold swivel chairs for Iwata...

I'm expecting something interesting from then next (handheld) gen...

They must be experimenting with that holographic media or something.....

 

[Grampa Simpson]

Only DS games smaller than 512MBit use mask rom, anything bigger uses one-time programmable EPROM (but some 512Mbit games use MROM). I don't know if they have begun using other techs in DS carts.

Thanks for clearing that up. I was under the impression that all DS carts were MROM.

EDIT: Are they doing the PROM and the serial interface on the same piece of silicon? Maybe just mass-manufacturing the cartridges and then gang-writing them to order and applying the appropriate sticker? The size of the flash on each cart is variable and not tied to size of the PROM, right? If I remember correctly, the flash is in a separate package in the cart, so that could be swappable.

 

[Fafalada]

bandwidth is only one side of the coin. latency is the other.

My reply would be that I wouldn't classify anything from Intel integrated 9xxx series as "modern" unless we go back in time to one year after PS2 launch(yes I realize they didn't exist then).

The answer is HD, pixel shaders, and vector art, imo. look at games like Braid and Pixeljunk Eden. Those would have been completely different experiences if they'd been made on the last generation of hardware.

My question was on the topic of 3d vs 2d accelerators. PS2 was the former already, even though its (extensive)2d capabilities remained largely untapped.

It just seems to be so... inflexible.

No other GPU(that I know of) can render single-buffered 3d at all (without horrible artifacts). This one does, being the only hw implementation of scanline rendering I am aware of.
The other design advantages are analogous to MBX/PowerVR - all work happens in small amount of fast-embeded memory, you get polygon sorting(and with that, edge AA) for free, and overdraw/opaque fillrate is a non-issue.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

There's a flaw in your argument: If Nintendo doesn't really believe in online, then why push for Virtual Console/WiiWare and eventually DSiWare in their consoles? I'm pretty certain they are agressive in online support, but as another has just said, I think they're approaching it from another angle. They could easily build an infostructure similar to MS and Sony's. The big question is: Why didn't they? While the most obvious reason might be "teh kiddiez", but something else might have made them consider taking the GameSpy route. Likewise, the deal with nVidia only brings more questions than answers since it's not quite within the mold of the whole Gunpei Yokoi philosophy of "off-the-shelf" simplicity yet very effective. The single-chip solution could be a clue, but again, it's just wild mass guessing at this point.

Dude, just go into the VC/WiiWare/DSiWare threads and see how much Nintendo is pushing online purchasing.

 

[sfried]

Since the DS carts use a serial interface, Nintendo can use whatever storage technology they can fit inside it and still keep the same form factor, enabling backwards compatibility. The DS can have up to 4 GByte carts (maximum addressable memory using a 32-bit address).

Actually, that's 4Gbit carts (which is 512MB), but I wouldn't be surprised 1GB, 2GB, and eventually 4GB ones come out eventually.

Dude, just go into the VC/WiiWare/DSiWare threads and see how much Nintendo is pushing online purchasing.

Shantae sequel announced for DSiWare

 

[charlequin]

I don't really agree with this. The online system on Wii isn't as a result of Nintendo knowing jack shit about network gaming, I suspect its more to do with them trying to make it as cheap to implement and streamline across their hardware as possible.

No, I really see no reason whatsoever to give them credit on this. Building an effective online infrastructure is deceptively difficult, and no one has done it successfully in the gaming space without an extremely bumpy ride; I am quite doubtful that Nintendo -- historically not a company with any experience or enthusiasm for networking -- somehow had the knack for this challenging task, then just went with a shitty system anyway.

I think the friend code and match making system on Wii is simply a derivative of the one they had set up for DS

Exactly my point: Nintendo are ignorant enough about the matter that they thought this system (which was lousy but still more or less sufficient for a system like the DS that treated online as an afterthought) could even conceivably be scaled into something useful for the home console.

The issue of technical competence here is entirely separate from the issue of online philosophy. I can easily imagine a system that blends a universal sign-in with Nintendo's policies. You could have a universal account "friend code," then a systemwide friends list that separates "confirmed friends" from "unconfirmed friends," only allowing the former to participate in text or voice communication. (Then individual games could choose how to work with those lists -- Animal Crossing could allow only the former, while a shooter lets you play but not talk with people on the latter too.)

They might not nail everything, but I think they'll have a fair few features in check, more than a lot of people might expect.

It's extremely conceivable that Nintendo's next attempt will be as good as this generation's standard (i.e. more or less feature-equivalent to PSN), but time does not stand still. Both Sony and Microsoft are going to improve their services yet further next generation, and even so neither is yet in the position to succeed with an all-DD platform. Nintendo's not going to come close.

There's a flaw in your argument: If Nintendo doesn't really believe in online, then why push for Virtual Console/WiiWare and eventually DSiWare in their consoles?

The idea that these services are pushed is laughable. Compare XBLA, whose new releases are consistently cross-promoted on both the Xbox interface itself and various external promotion arms (as well as a minimum of one active promotional push each year) to the unceremonious dumping of WiiWare titles and the insultingly tiny trickle of VC games.

Nintendo's attitude has generally been that they prefer control over how they perceive people to be using their platform to actually providing the best content for users; thus their preference for denying games (Bionic Commando, Goldeneye 007, and Dracula X) that could conceivably be seen as promoting a competitor's product. It's very much the attitude of a company that considers this part of the system a "value-add" rather than a core part of the brand.

 

[Lazy8s]

Having the option of saving memory with single buffered rendering of 3D is one of the advantages of a TBDR like PowerVR.

 

[Somnid]

By my count Nintendo has 1032 unique titles across all digital download platforms including all regions. Clearly they aren't putting any effort into it.

Couldn't easily find a good PSN figure but by comparison this is how many others have:

1919 - Steam
1050 - Gametap
856 - Full XBLA, 360, Xbox, Indie games
~100,000 - Apple App Store

Like how Nintendo is Japan-biased with downloads so these ones are US-biased so by US region, yeah, they do have a lot more. Still, Nintendo's hardly slacking. You might not care for the store itself, but I'd question anyone who thinks they aren't serious.

Also, the other stupid thing is people comparing downloadable games with online play. They are two completely seperate and unreleated things.

 

[charlequin]

By my count Nintendo has 1032 unique titles across all digital download platforms including all regions.

This is a downright insipid standard to measure performance in this area by.

A system's total digital releases are, in part, bounded by the specifics of its platform: how many different services there are, how strongly they support legacy (i.e. ROM/arcade) releases, how strongly they support indie development releases, what certification standards look like, how large their release blocks are, etc., none of which single-handedly correlate to the quality of overall online presence.

However, we can look at a variety of factors together here. Has Nintendo continued to focus attention on their top WiiWare titles after the launch window, promoting major tentpole releases as significant system exclusives right alongside retail titles? (No.) Has Nintendo made full use of the potential library represented by its VC contracts to maintain a steady release of many desirable games? (No.) Does Nintendo do a major systemwide push for selected WiiWare titles in order to spike their sales and increase their visibility? (No.) Has Nintendo provided sufficiently good solutions to the storage problems that limit potential DD sales on its system. (That would be no again.)

In terms of the marketing effort exerted to promote these platforms, the technical aspects being lined up to enable more frequent purchases from them, and the full use of their potential catalog, Nintendo does not demonstrate any kind of commitment to their current DD offerings. They, as I've said, are treating them as a value-add -- something that makes the system better for certain people who were going to buy one anyway, a way to pick up a few extra dollars from consumers, but not an important platform feature that should be nurtured and encouraged to grow in volume and importance.

Also, the other stupid thing is people comparing downloadable games with online play. They are two completely seperate and unreleated things.

They are not in any way unrelated. Both are key facets of a console's online service, and both are clearly significantly affected by the details of said service.

And, in fact, we can already see clearly how the drawbacks of the Wii's online service affects both: the lack of a single sign-in both cripples friend capabilities for online play and leaves Wii DD purchases unconnected to an "account," thereby requiring Nintendo's good grace to recover purchases on a replacement system.

 

[bengraven]

That would be awesome if I booted up my DS2 and...

"nVidia: The Way It's Meant to Be Played"

popped up.

 

[Durante]

That's Intel! It would be "The way it's meant to be played" :lol

 

[wrowa]

The discussion about Nintendo's download platforms reminded me that I was quite surprised some weeks ago to see that Nintendo has actively adverted Wario Ware Snapped (DSiWare) on TV. Quite frequently also. I believe this was the first TV commercial for a download game ever in this backward, unknown country.

Wario Ware Snapped - TV commercial

 

[bengraven]

That's Intel! It would be "The way it's meant to be played" :lol

Oh shit, you're right. Coming from an nVidia owner my last two rigs, I have no fucking clue why my mind went there. :lol

Thanks for the catch!

 

[PSGames]

ARM may not be out of the battle just yet:

http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/21/...processors-with-impressive-3d-demo/#continued

 

[Massa]

The head of Ubisoft Brasil, Bertrand Chaverot, recently said they were selected as one of the companies to work on concepts for next-gen DS games, and their São Paulo studio is already working on that.

Link

Today we are preparing the concept to make a game to a new machine, the successor to the current generation of handhelds. Nothing has been announced yet, but Ubisoft Brazil has been selected to prepare concepts for the platform. In Porto Alegre, we finished "Imagine: Party Planner" (already available in Europe), and now we're working on concepts for a game for the Wii and online games.

 

[realraptor]

The head of Ubisoft Brasil, Bertrand Chaverot, recently said they were selected as one of the companies to work on concepts for next-gen DS games, and their São Paulo studio is already working on that.

Link

Imagine: HD?

 

[clashfan]

Please Nintendo make the next gen DS a cell phone.

 

[GDGF]

Please Nintendo make the next gen DS a cell phone.

Why do you want things to suck?

 

[volmer]

Please Nintendo make the next gen DS a cell phone.

As if people didn't have enough cell phones already...

 

[Easy_D]

Please Nintendo make the next gen DS a cell phone.

I already own an iPhone, please Nintendo, make the next portable gaming system a portable gaming system.

 

[MadOdorMachine]

Sorry to bump this old thread, but I didn't see the need for creating a new one. I'm curious when people expect the next Nintendo handheld to come out. The DS came out in late 2004 so it's been 5 years already. Like the Wii, it was already underpowered when it came out, but my point is that the system is starting to show it's age for me. I've realized that most of my gaming now is done on a handheld system and the DS just isn't cutting it for me anymore. To sum it up in a nutshell, I'm ready to upgrade. I've thought about buying a PSP, but the game library isn't as appealing to me as Nintendo has traditionally dominated that market. All the signs are there for a new system, but it seems odd they would do it with the DSXL coming out in the US in 2010. Then again the GBA Micro came out around the same time as the DS, so I suppose it's still possible. So I guess my question is, do think a the DS2 will come out in 2010?

 

[Cow Mengde]

I expect the next handheld to have graphics that I can see in broad daylight and in low lighting condition. They went from being too dark with the GBA to being too dark for daylight. It's time we had a portable that can be played in the dark and in the light. I don't give a crap about amazing graphics. I want to be able to SEE the fucking graphic. I sick of shifting around avoiding daylight like some kind of weird mole person in a moving vehicle.

 

[Black-Wind]

FUCK!

I thought there was news . . . FUCK!

 

[Cow Mengde]

If you want news, try beyond3d. One of their mods is an insider. He hasn't spilled much though.

 

[Chittagong]

Sorry to bump this old thread, but I didn't see the need for creating a new one. I'm curious when people expect the next Nintendo handheld to come out. The DS came out in late 2004 so it's been 5 years already. Like the Wii, it was already underpowered when it came out, but my point is that the system is starting to show it's age for me. I've realized that most of my gaming now is done on a handheld system and the DS just isn't cutting it for me anymore. To sum it up in a nutshell, I'm ready to upgrade. I've thought about buying a PSP, but the game library isn't as appealing to me as Nintendo has traditionally dominated that market. All the signs are there for a new system, but it seems odd they would do it with the DSXL coming out in the US in 2010. Then again the GBA Micro came out around the same time as the DS, so I suppose it's still possible. So I guess my question is, do think a the DS2 will come out in 2010?

I'll go on the record to predict that DS2 comes out next year. Announcement Jan/Feb, unveiling in E3, launch in November. Following the DS pattern. Many signs point to this, biggest of them being the sudden lack of Nintendo first party content in the last year. Happens always when a new system is coming close to launch.

Nintendo will get a head start again, catching Sony a year early since I believe Sony will come out with their PowerVR PSP2 in 2011 only. Now that Sony has ruled digital-only as a platform option with PSPgo as the test proble, they'll probably ship games on SD or MemoryStick

 

[Zilch]

Looking at the evidence, I also think a 2010 launch is likely.

I honestly like 3D on the DS (I mean, if it's done well like SE's FF remakes) but I'm very excited at the prospects of a new handheld. Will it be capable of near-Wii quality visuals?

 

[Somnid]

Yeah, Nintendo is releasing a new DS only 2 years after the DSi (less for NA and Europe), and in the same year as the world-wide release of the DSi XL while both systems are burning up the sales charts.

What fantasy world do you people live in anyway?

 

[Gospel]

Looking at the evidence, I also think a 2010 launch is likely.

I honestly like 3D on the DS (I mean, if it's done well like SE's FF remakes) but I'm very excited at the prospects of a new handheld. Will it be capable of near-Wii quality visuals?

I too have no problems with the the 3d the DS outputs. I'm more concerned about the screen resolution.

It's be great if they shot for something like that of the iPhone or ipod touch. More ppi, rather than larger screen size.

 

[AniHawk]

I'm totally unprepared for a new DS next year. I think the launch of the DSi XL/LL early next year in America rules out the launch of a brand new DS in 2010. Maybe it'll be Japan Q4 2010 and America Q1 2011.

 

[Nessus]

Has Nintendo provided sufficiently good solutions to the storage problems that limit potential DD sales on its system. (That would be no again.)

I agree with most of what you said, especially with regards to the lack of a sign on really hurting them.

BUT how is the SD card slot not a good solution to storage problems? You can now get an SD card for $5 that will let you hold hundreds of dollars worth of downloads. Somehow fill that up and you can swap out another $5 card.

I haven't had a single issue since they opened up the SD card slot for Wii Ware/Virtual Console, and I've bought a lot of games since then.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

We're not seeing the DS2 until 2011 at the earliest. That's just plain simple, given the recent release of the LL. As long as the DS is printing money, they've got no reason to push out the next iteration.

 

[charlequin]

BUT how is the SD card slot not a good solution to storage problems?

Neither system lets you actually run things directly from the SD card; it always copies it to the internal flash, helping to wear it out faster in the process. It's an improvement but not a sufficiently huge one.

I'm totally unprepared for a new DS next year. I think the launch of the DSi XL/LL early next year in America rules out the launch of a brand new DS in 2010. Maybe it'll be Japan Q4 2010 and America Q1 2011.

I'm betting pretty strongly on an E3 announcement leading up to a March-April worldwide release in 2011.