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[xfactor]

Believe!

I seriously doubt Nintendo will use a disc format for their handheld, especially when the UMD was one if not the biggest complain of the PSP. It drains battery life pretty fast.

Unless of course, the disc format there is a slot-2 for GC disc just like GBA slot in the DS. Nintendo can then somewhat justify it by saying 'its an added incentive'.

 

[diddlyD]

I'm just curious. Why would Nintendo, or any other console maker for that matter, cap their systems?

the ds is a strange little esoteric piece of hardware. its 3d engine is a simple device designed to run on little power. it doesn't have general vram like most common 3d systems, instead it has segmented chunks of memory for doing specific things. the polygon limits are not just tied to performance but how much ram is set aside in the silicon for building lists of what to draw.

it's also designed to run in sync with the very snes/gba like 2d engine it's built on top of which has always been tied to a 60hz update.

 

[brain_stew]

From Arun a staff member at B3D and very reliable:

There really isn't anything new with Theo's leak; you'll find more info on this forum when me and/or Ailuros hint about it, really... And his speculation doesn't make any sense anyway.

As I said before, it's nearly certainly a 40nm *custom* SoC based on Tegra2 IP (DX9-level like Tegra1) and a single Cortex-A9 with FPU. Tegra1 has 2 TMUs, Tegra2 probably has 4 TMUs. It'd be a relatively safe bet to assume they're going to stick to that, but who knows. I also have no clue about what kind of multimedia system Nintendo might have asked for.

Tegra 2 and Coretex A9!? Oh, yes please!

Should be capable of some very impressive graphics.

 

[mug]

Unless of course, the disc format there is a slot-2 for GC disc just like GBA slot in the DS. Nintendo can then somewhat justify it by saying 'its an added incentive'.

I don't think the GC had a large enough following for that.

 

[CTLance]

Cortex A9 with FPU? Fuck yes. That'd be pretty neat.

6x2^10? Could it be some sort of fixed cache?

Dunno. Look through the documentation if you want to dive into the specifics, it's half past three in the morning, my brain has already shut down.
Linky

 

[Azure J]

Tegra 2 and Coretex A9!? Oh, yes please!

Should be capable of some very impressive graphics.

I'm curious, just what kind of graphical performance can one look forward to with these parts in play?

 

[blu]

NeoGeo

i swear i was not thinking of that when i posted ;p

 

[PSGames]

I seriously doubt Nintendo will use a disc format for their handheld, especially when the UMD was one if not the biggest complain of the PSP. It drains battery life pretty fast.

Unless of course, the disc format there is a slot-2 for GC disc just like GBA slot in the DS. Nintendo can then somewhat justify it by saying 'its an added incentive'.

Now that I think about it. I think it would be ingenius to have a GC hardware based portable. It wouldn't even need a Disc drive. Put all GC games up for Digital Download. GC discs could only hold 1.5GB so their sizes would be perfect already!

 

[cartman414]

Well, F-Zero X on DS would be impossible. (30 vehicles @ 60 fps)

N64 only pulled that off with F-Zero X because of the low poly count models.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

I'm curious, just what kind of graphical performance can one look forward to with these parts in play?

Example you can relate to.

Example that seems "Nintendo-y"

 

[brain_stew]

Example you can relate to.

Example that seems "Nintendo-y"

That's a first generation Tegra and the resolution is 800x480 which way beyond what any Nintendo handheld is going to have. Its also running 5xcsaa and 8xaf, its hardly an engine tailored specifically to the hardware either. So, expect much better results than this.

So at a minimum we can say probably say better than Quake 3 graphics @ 60fps w/ high levels of aa and af, should be the least its capable of at its native resolution. I personally expect games that are more impressive than Wii titles (if disregarding resolution at least), and since its a derivative of standard DX9 class hardware, making use of fancy shader effects will be much easier than it is on Wii.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

That's a first generation Tegra and the resolution is 800x480 which way beyond what any Nintendo handheld is going to have. Its also running 5xcsaa and 8xaf, its hardly an engine tailored specifically to the hardware either. So, expect much better results than this.

So at a minimum we can say probably say better than Quake 3 graphics @ 60fps w/ high levels of aa and af, should be the least its capable of at its native resolution. I personally expect games that are more impressive than Wii titles (if disregarding resolution at least), and since its a derivative of standard DX9 class hardware, making use of fancy shader effects will be much easier than it is on Wii.

Spoiler

Being serious though this is making me very excited. I guess I'll hold out another year without a handheld to see how things pan out. If this is true however I wonder what route Nintendo will go with the Wii Plus? Make it similar in specs so many multiplats can be shared? Or give the system more horsepower to differentiate handheld and console through tech?

 

[sfried]

I don't see this happening at all.

If there's one thing I've learned in my entire lifetime, it is to never second-guess what Nintendo will do. Most likely that guess would be wrong anyway. (I was one of those people who said "What the fuck were they thinking?" when the Wii was announced.)

If there's one thing they're good at, it's keeping secrets. Like the poster above said, if nVidia did seal a contract with them, no one knows for what (officially) and why. It's anybody's guess. It might just be a non-system-on-chip GPU for their next home console for all we care.

Although this is neoGAF, I do believe it's safe to assume not to get people's hopes up.

 

[brain_stew]

Well I don't expect it to use a screen any higher resolution than the PSP has, so it should only have to process 1/3 as many pixels as the Nvidia demo does, and Tegra 2 looks to be a 2x upgrade. So before even considering games tweaked to the hardware's capabilities we're already looking at as much as a 6x perf. increase in certain scenarios over what that Quake 3 video was showing and that's with really good levels of aa and af to boot.

Developers should be able to do some very nice things with that.

 

[TAJ]

Sure, but colors isn't all SNES had over Genesis -- it also had ludicrously superior sound, transparency effects, a high-resolution mode, sprite transformation effects up to and including Mode 7, etc.

It's definitely true that the CPU on the Genesis made games with high object counts, especially arcade-oriented titles, run far smoother on the Genny, but that's really the only area that let the system compete.

It shouldn't have been able to compete at all. SNES/Super Famicom hit the market over two years later. (and cost more, at least in NA) Two years might as well be an eternity when it comes to tech. It really is another case of Nintendo cheaping out on hardware.

 

[sfried]

Just because I happen to know that: 16.x MHz, not 33.

(Made a certain 133MHz handheld look even more like a godly sign...

...oh how I miss these days of awe.)

I guess now it's time for GAF to speculate design the new Nintendo handheld UI.

I happen to like the Neo Geo Pocket Color's BIOS music (Warning: Loud!).

 

[Raistlin]

i swear i was not thinking of that when i posted ;p

 

[adg1034]

If there's one thing I've learned in my entire lifetime, it is to never second-guess what Nintendo will do. Most likely that guess would be wrong anyway. (I was one of those people who said "What the fuck were they thinking?" when the Wii was announced.)

If there's one thing they're good at, it's keeping secrets. Like the poster above said, if nVidia did seal a contract with them, no one knows for what (officially) and why. It's anybody's guess. It might just be a non-system-on-chip GPU for their next home console for all we care.

Although this is neoGAF, I do believe it's safe to assume not to get people's hopes up.

Seriously. We're probably looking at at least a year before anyone outside either top management at Nintendo or major third-parties get an official look at what's coming down the pipe, so any leaks on hardware/specs will be microscopic at best until then.

But at the same time, I'm sure that Nintendo is very well aware of the limitations imposed by the current DS hardware, both from external developers and everyone at NCL who has ever worked on the platform. When it was introduced, nobody had any inkling about the level of success the DS would achieve, as development was well underway on what would have become the GBA2 (later shut down, to the best of my knowledge, throwing out the whole "third pillar" notion once and for all). Simply put, the DS was never supposed to be a system with a 10-year lifespan, and that fact that it's heading in that direction is a testament to the ingenuity of modern developers.

Internal Nintendo developers, I'm sure, feel frustrated by the limitations of the platform just as much as third-parties do, and you can bet that Nintendo R&D is doing their damnedest to address their concerns (while simultaneously keeping an eye-and-a-half on cost controls, of course).

 

[Gospel]

I guess now it's time for GAF to speculate design the new Nintendo handheld UI.

I happen to like the Neo Geo Pocket Color's BIOS music (Warning: Loud!).

Oh geez, the memories. After I lost my only game for this thing, I could only mess around with the horoscope and listen to the music.

I really miss the NeoGeo

 

[justchris]

Because everyone should know the first thing on Nintendo Co.'s mind is always pure profit right out the gate if not almost immediately after (ie GC). And since releasing underpowered hardware filled their money bins at record speeds this gen, they have zero reason do more than that.

Eh, that's not strictly true. Nintendo doesn't use cheap hardware just for the sake of using cheap hardware, they use it for the sake of increasing profitability. At this point, they have to make a judgment of how cheap they can go and still maintain, or increase, profitability. It doesn't matter how much profit you make per unit if no one actually wants to buy your product.

Anyway, the Tegra seems to offer a lot of advantages re: portability and low power consumption. Probably the most significant thing in this rumor is the line, "Unlike the current design, nVidia offered a single-chip proposal to Nintendo...." The current DSi model uses 3 chips (an ARM7 and ARM9 and some no-name GPU). If they can get a single-chip solution that does all of that and more, with an architecture based on ARM11 so it's at least partially backwards compatible with the instruction set for only a dollar or two more per unit, it might be worth it to them to do that if it gives them a chance to bite into the PSP, and more importantly iPhone (and Docomo cellphone) market.

And let's be honest, when negotiating, Nintendo has expected sales of ~100 million over the next 5 to 6 years to bring to the table. Nvidia has stiff competition from ATI/AMD & Intel. So Nintendo's negotiating from a much stronger position. It's less a matter of, 'is this the cheapest solution' than it is 'is this solution cheap enough for us to maintain or increase profitability'?

 

[Black Rainbow]

It shouldn't have been able to compete at all. SNES/Super Famicom hit the market over two years later. (and cost more, at least in NA) Two years might as well be an eternity when it comes to tech. It really is another case of Nintendo cheaping out on hardware.

One need only look at (and hear) games like Yoshi's Island, Donkey Kong Country 3, and Rockman and Forte to realize the SNES was superior in almost every respect to its closest competitor. Did Nintendo really need to accomplish any more than that?

 

[Green Biker Dude]

but wait we only need graphics as good as wii's. everything else is unnecessary

 

[sankao]

Example you can relate to.

Example that seems "Nintendo-y"

The second video looks terrible. Poor graphics, framerate below 10fps and terrible aliasing. I don't know why nVidia would let that be shown.

 

[justchris]

The second video looks terrible. Poor graphics, framerate below 10fps and terrible aliasing. I don't know why nVidia would let that be shown.

Maybe they thought some people might be intrigued by a cell-phone based mini-MMO?

 

[Log4Girlz]

The second video looks terrible. Poor graphics, framerate below 10fps and terrible aliasing. I don't know why nVidia would let that be shown.

I'm pretty sure the current DS could do it fairly well :/

 

[CTLance]

I guess now it's time for GAF to speculate design the new Nintendo handheld UI.
I happen to like the Neo Geo Pocket Color's BIOS music (Warning: Loud!).

D'awwwwwh. I feel the need to start the thing up for the horoscope alone. As useless as it is, it's an awesome idea that perfectly fits the handheld/mobile gaming mindset.

But no, it's not time to argue about that, not even for gaf. All we have are rumours about the hardware. To predict anything about the software itself would be insane at this time.

 

[Chittagong]

The only question on my head is - "will it have dual analog joysticks".

 

[blu]

Anyway, the Tegra seems to offer a lot of advantages re: portability and low power consumption. Probably the most significant thing in this rumor is the line, "Unlike the current design, nVidia offered a single-chip proposal to Nintendo...." The current DSi model uses 3 chips (an ARM7 and ARM9 and some no-name GPU).

you got that very wrong. a chip may contain as many 'units' as the designer pleases (tegra has eight).

also, the article is somewhat misleading: the current dsi _is_ a one-chip design. it's a SoC (system-on-a-chip), plus the obligatory memory chips and a radio module, plus two small companions. likely, tegra will offer one of those two companion chips as integrated (it's some kind of sound codec chip, i belive it does the aac playback). i.e. from the current SoC + flash + ram + radio + two companion, tegra will offer: SoC + flash + ram + radio + one companion (likely, but they may integrate that too). but it will never be one physical chip in the system per se.

 

[Hcoregamer00]

Eh, that's not strictly true. Nintendo doesn't use cheap hardware just for the sake of using cheap hardware, they use it for the sake of increasing profitability. At this point, they have to make a judgment of how cheap they can go and still maintain, or increase, profitability. It doesn't matter how much profit you make per unit if no one actually wants to buy your product.

Anyway, the Tegra seems to offer a lot of advantages re: portability and low power consumption. Probably the most significant thing in this rumor is the line, "Unlike the current design, nVidia offered a single-chip proposal to Nintendo...." The current DSi model uses 3 chips (an ARM7 and ARM9 and some no-name GPU). If they can get a single-chip solution that does all of that and more, with an architecture based on ARM11 so it's at least partially backwards compatible with the instruction set for only a dollar or two more per unit, it might be worth it to them to do that if it gives them a chance to bite into the PSP, and more importantly iPhone (and Docomo cellphone) market.

And let's be honest, when negotiating, Nintendo has expected sales of ~100 million over the next 5 to 6 years to bring to the table. Nvidia has stiff competition from ATI/AMD & Intel. So Nintendo's negotiating from a much stronger position. It's less a matter of, 'is this the cheapest solution' than it is 'is this solution cheap enough for us to maintain or increase profitability'?

Good post, with my favorite point highlighted.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

So, if this is true, what route will Nintendo go with storage?

Will they use solid state ROMs (I.E. flash memory cartridges) again? I mean they are getting cheaper and cheaper as time goes on. Would it be that much of a stretch to have them reach 2 to even 4 GB cards. Or will they take up the PSP Go's stance (and if the system doesn't succeed) they'll pioneer digital distribution. Or maybe they'll do something interesting like distribute compressed games on flash cards and then uncompressing and installing them to a systems built in hard-drive?

I know I may be sounding a bit extreme, but I just don't know if solid state ROM can handle games that reach or surpass Wii games in a technical standpoint.

 

[-WindYoshi-]

And let's be honest, when negotiating, Nintendo has expected sales of ~100 million over the next 5 to 6 years to bring to the table. Nvidia has stiff competition from ATI/AMD & Intel. So Nintendo's negotiating from a much stronger position. It's less a matter of, 'is this the cheapest solution' than it is 'is this solution cheap enough for us to maintain or increase profitability'?

Exactly what I was thinking!

So, if this is true, what route will Nintendo go with storage?

With all that talk of a holographic storage medium being patented by Nintendo... that may be it.

 

[godhandiscen]

But the question is why do you guys get so excited? It's fine to have preferences, but who gets genuinely excited about any of the chip companies having problems? Yeah, consumer is gonna take it in the ass. Let's celebrate.

Excited? This is terrible fucking news for the the consumer. It is him who was wearing the Nvidia glasses and not realizing that the green team is doing things badly to the point of giving ATI a monopoly of the high end GPU industry for 5 months.

 

[Axion22]

My first thought was, because of the fact that it's an NVIDIA chip, it's going to be expensive.

Good for the green team, though. They need a friend.

 

[Durante]

If the Tegra 2 specs are somewhat accurate, and DS2 doesn't have a very high-res screen it could have more graphics performance (in certain aspects) per pixel than the Wii. Of course it also depends greatly on what clock speed they settle on.
It wouldn't surprise me to see the next-gen handhelds go fully dynamic in that aspect, to the point where a game could up- and downclock based on how much is going on (I actually did that on PSP).

How is that? The only thing the DS is really missing, as far as I know, is mipmapping and aliasing.

The DS is certainly not lacking in the aliasing department!

 

[AzureNightmare]

My first thought was, because of the fact that it's an NVIDIA chip, it's going to be expensive.

Good for the green team, though. They need a friend.

The highlighted part is where you are wrong. The Tegra chips are extremely cost effective and are extremely cheap to produce. I do not believe you have to worry about things being expensive.

The DS is certainly not lacking in the aliasing department!

Well played good sir, well played.:lol

 

[blu]

The DS is certainly not lacking in the aliasing department!

actually ds has nice edge antialiasing for free. problem is, it's only for geometry. that means all those alpha-keyed point-sampled textures get none. and developers love using those on the ds as a geometry-saving technique. but a well-designed ds game usually exibits little-to-none edge aliasing. in this regard, the average technically-sane ds game exibits less edge aliasing than the average technically-sane psp game (just because one is free, the other is not).

 

[Squeak]

One need only look at (and hear) games like Yoshi's Island, Donkey Kong Country 3, and Rockman and Forte to realize the SNES was superior in almost every respect to its closest competitor. Did Nintendo really need to accomplish any more than that?

Those were games enhanced with special chips. They don't coun't.
When it comes to real processing power and ability to push graphics out of the box Megadrive is more than competetive.

 

[Durante]

I'm aware of the edge AA on DS, but thanks to the nearest-neighbour "filtered" textures there's so much texture aliasing and flicker going on that it doesn't help the overall impression as much as it should. (except in games with a cartoony style that use little to no textures)

 

[brain_stew]

you got that very wrong. a chip may contain as many 'units' as the designer pleases (tegra has eight).

also, the article is somewhat misleading: the current dsi _is_ a one-chip design. it's a SoC (system-on-a-chip), plus the obligatory memory chips and a radio module, plus two small companions. likely, tegra will offer one of those two companion chips as integrated (it's some kind of sound codec chip, i belive it does the aac playback). i.e. from the current SoC + flash + ram + radio + two companion, tegra will offer: SoC + flash + ram + radio + one companion (likely, but they may integrate that too). but it will never be one physical chip in the system per se.

Do Tegra chips not integrate the RAM like Samsungs ARM + PowerVR chip in the iPhone?

How big are people expecting the RAM pool to be? Similar setups (like the iPhone) usually seem to have around 128MB but I'm thinking even 64MB should be more than sufficient for some pretty special results. There's no need for super high res. textures when the rendering resolution is so low, afterall. 128MB would be pretty damn sweet though, the little thing would basically out spec the Wii in damn near every area that way.

I'm aware of the edge AA on DS, but thanks to the nearest-neighbour "filtered" textures there's so much texture aliasing and flicker going on that it doesn't help the overall impression as much as it should. (except in games with a cartoony style that use little to no textures)

One of the big points Nvidia seem to be pimping with the Tegra chips is that 5xcsaa (2xmsaa + 3 coverage samples) and 8xaf (its based on Geforce 6/7 so the AF isn't perfect but its cheap) have a low overhead. Boy would I be happy for a portable where that level of iq is standard. On a small 3" screen that should produce as close to "perfect" IQ as you could expect before hitting some seriously diminishing returns.

So DX9 level hardware w/ 2xvs, 4xTMUs, 128MB RAM a ~600mhz Cortex A9 w/ FPU, this thing is shaping up to be very capable little piece of hardware.

 

[blu]

Do Tegra chips not integrate the RAM like Samsungs ARM + PowerVR chip in the iPhone?

ram is integratable, or not, depending on various (mainly) economic but also strategic factors. non-trivial amounts of flash (as in 'mass storage') is flat out non-integratable, though. anyway, to answer your question: the current tegra does not integrate the ram.

 

[brain_stew]

Digging through Arun's previous posts on B3D (he seems to be seriously in the know with regards to Tegra), I think we can be reasonably sure which setup Nintendo would be going for.

Based on a basic understanding of market trends and a tiny bit of info from the grapevine about timeframes, this gives us the following *speculative* roadmap:
1) 65nm, 1xARM11, 720p+ Decode, 720p Encode, 2xTMU/2xVS, 32-bit LPDDR1. Tape-out 2H07, Sampling January 2008.
2) Derivative AP16, basically same thing but bugfixes/minor goodies. Tape-out 3Q08(?).
3) 40nm 1xA9, 1080p Decode, 1080p Encode, 4xTMU/2xVS, 32-bit LPDDR2. Tape-out 4Q08.
4) 40nm 2xA9, 1080p High Profile Decode, 1080p Encode, ?xTMU/?xVS, 64-bit 1.35v DDR3 or LP-DDR2. Tape-out mid-2009.
5) 40nm 1xA9, 720p Decode, 720p Encode, 1xTMU/1xVS, 16-bit LPDDR2. Tape-out 2H09.
6) 28nm 4xA9, 2x1080p High Profile Decode, 1080p (HP?) Encode, Next-Gen GPU(?), 64-bit LPDDR2 or 1.35v DDR3. Tape-out 1H10.
)

The bolded option 3 seems to bethe most likely setup that Nintendo will use. Should absolutely be ready for major mass production in 2010 and really shouldn't be all that pricey on a 40nm node, especially when you're ordering in the quantities that Nintendo will be.

I hope Nintendo allow media playback on this thing as it'll be plenty capable of it.

 

[Durante]

So DX9 level hardware w/ 2xvs, 4xTMUs, 128MB RAM a ~600mhz Cortex A9 w/ FPU, this thing is shaping up to be very capable little piece of hardware.

Even if all this pans out I don't expect Nintendo to clock it that high.

 

[brain_stew]

Even if all this pans out I don't expect Nintendo to clock it that high.

Well these things can scale right upto 2ghz where it still consumes less than 2w so it'd hardly be a high end derivative at 600mhz. Even at ~450mhz its still going to be a plenty capable chip, reading up on it and its surprising just how fully featured it is for a mobile chip.

From my little research, it seems that the A9 is an out-of-order execution chip whereas the A8 is still io. How much of a difference clock for clock is this going to make? I mean the iPhone's A8 @ 600mhz is already plenty fast but that lacks out-of-order execution which traditionally has made a big difference in performance in a lot of scenarios.

 

[Durante]

Even at ~450mhz its still going to be a plenty capable chip, reading up on it and its surprising just how fully featured it is for a mobile chip.

Exactly, that's why I wouldn't expect Nintendo to go far beyond that. Lower clock mean longer battery life, and once that is long enough it means smaller battery which means lower price. Which is what they're all about

 

[brain_stew]

Exactly, that's why I wouldn't expect Nintendo to go far beyond that. Lower clock mean longer battery life, and once that is long enough it means smaller battery which means lower price. Which is what they're all about

Yeah, I take your point. I still find it crazy that ARM can pack an ooo superscaler design with a very beefy FPU unit (Neon) into such a tiny size/power/heat package, it really is incredible. With such a beefy little chip, Nintendo will be able to clock it down really quite low and still manage acceptable performance whilst getting super high battery life to boot. It really does fit with Nintendo's strategy very well, so if Nintendo can get nice performance and a low cost/ low power chip out of it, why wouldn't they be going this route? It meets all their goals, and then some.

Looking at how the architecture scales, I wonder if it isn't a good candidate for the Wii's successor. A 2ghz dual core A9, is going to be a seriously kick ass chip and a very nice upgrade over the Wii's ~700mhz G3, yet it should still consume less than 2w!?

 

[charlequin]

The only question on my head is - "will it have dual analog joysticks".

:lol

Will they use solid state ROMs (I.E. flash memory cartridges) again?

Yes?

Or will they take up the PSP Go's stance (and if the system doesn't succeed) they'll pioneer digital distribution.

Nintendo is like a generation behind on their online infrastructure compared to their competitors on both their systems and doesn't have a remotely acceptable infrastructure for downloading games or a single-sign-in anywhere. The idea is utterly laughable.

 

[brain_stew]

It'll use flash memory "cartridges" (like the NDS) for its games, that much is a given. They're high capacity, low cost and durable, why use anything else?

I'd expect their to be some integrated flash (say 4GB), possibly an SD slot and a seriously beefed up digital distribution platform as well.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

Nintendo is like a generation behind on their online infrastructure compared to their competitors on both their systems and doesn't have a remotely acceptable infrastructure for downloading games or a single-sign-in anywhere. The idea is utterly laughable.

Well when you put it that way I guess there was no point listing that. Than again I was just trying to give examples. I was just wondering because I wasn't sure that if game cards would be able to hold so much space while still being financially viable.

It'll use flash memory "cartridges" (like the NDS) for its games, that much is a given. They're high capacity, low cost and durable, why use anything else?

I'd expect their to be some integrated flash (say 4GB), possibly an SD slot and a seriously beefed up digital distribution platform as well.

Ahh. I was under the thought that they were more expensive than discs and held less capacity than say UMD's.

EDIT - Don't forget battery life and (practically) no load times.

 

[Durante]

Ahh. I was under the thought that they were more expensive than discs and held less capacity than say UMD's.

Well, up to now, both of these are still true. But they have various other advantages.

 

[Bluemercury]

Nintendo is like a generation behind on their online infrastructure compared to their competitors on both their systems and doesn't have a remotely acceptable infrastructure for downloading games or a single-sign-in anywhere. The idea is utterly laughable.

Well more than 300 million $ in R&D might give them some insight on how to build the infrastructure.