Kano on the Phone
Member
You're confusing sex with gender.
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School Told to Call Kids Purple Penguins Because Boys and Girls Is Not Inclusive
- Thread starter benjipwns
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You're confusing sex with gender.
BeatResetsTheWorld
Banned
These little kids don't know the difference between "sex" and "gender" and stuff like this is going to make them even more confused than other kids when they're taken out of this strange "purple penguin" environment
Deified Data
Banned
The part where children are told to stop using gendered words is where it gets troubling for me. Make it more inclusive, but don't downright ban gendered descriptions, that's just extreme.
All of this stuff reminds me a little of people on twitter going mad over the Royal baby getting called a boy.
Kano on the Phone
Member
So they're being taught the difference or at least taught that there isn't a 100 percent binary always. Why is that a bad thing? Kids aren't idiots.
What about the little girl that feels like a little boy? Fuck that kid because another kid might be maybe possibly confused?
OldAsUrSock
Banned
It does not matter what you say you are, you are either a male or female and that is genetically set.
Kano on the Phone
Member
...there are? I've never seen one of these things. Also not sure i'd want to use one.
CharlieDigital
Banned
You're right, that's all the more reason to work towards ensuring that girls and boys don't grow up thinking that there are toys for boys and toys for girls or jobs for boys and jobs for girls.
Has less to do with genetics and more to do with social and cultural expectations on gender.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
But intersex people exist.
So you're wrong?
Nature never deals in neat categories - it deals in continuums and fuzzy borders.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Also, 1 in 2000 people are intersex, so they can't be dismissed as a statistical anomaly, which I know people like to do.
http://www.isna.org/faq/ten_myths/rare
http://www.iwgregorio.com/2014/09/13/5-myths-about-intersex-debunked/
Intersex people are more common than redheads, and there are more intersex people than Jewish people in the world.
BeatResetsTheWorld
Banned
Yeah, but that's more of an issue of how these toys are marketed and presented I think. Toy companies could go a long way towards having toys with "pieces" that are both genders, not featuring advertising with only boys or only girls. I think it's a separate issue from this
Also, did schools make kids line up as boys or girls? I'm just trying to wrap my head around what situations that would be needed in.
Kano on the Phone
Member
maquiladora
Member
Dafuq? It's not 1950...
Succinct Verbosity
Member
The intent is good, but it still shouldn't be done. Imagine biology class for these kids.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
What are the chances that when a kid realizes they're transgender or anything else that they'll then not feel like an oddity or that they're wrong?
I get lost on threads like these on GAF because I figure people here would be more likely to have some sort of empathy about what it means to feel you're different.
Kano on the Phone
Member
Why? Gender has nothing to do with biology.
neogaffer1
Banned
"Purple penguins" is dumb.
That being said, it's a good thing to attempt to get rid of gender differences at an early age--this fights entrenched gender roles. But I think parents would need to work in the same direction as well for this to work and that's just not happening.
That being said, it's a good thing to attempt to get rid of gender differences at an early age--this fights entrenched gender roles. But I think parents would need to work in the same direction as well for this to work and that's just not happening.
TheChocolateWar
Member
I have only ever known sex to mean gender. After all, to conflate any other set of characteristics with gender is, in and of itself, biased or maybe even bigoted.
CharlieDigital
Banned
It's deeper than just toys.
Even the way teachers treat boys and girls has an impact on their academic performance and career choices.
Cizeta-Moroder
Banned
This nomeclature is at the expense of biological accuracy.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
It's pretty clearly a purposely silly example that kids can laugh at and relate to. It's not for adults to pick apart for no reason other than that we think we don't like it.
Deified Data
Banned
I really don't think the intent of this directive is as extreme as people are perceiving it to be. I think it boils down to the school not wanting gender to be a wedge between their students. Clearly these kids are still going to be growing up with a pretty decent idea of whether they're a boy or a girl. Putting kids in a single line or calling them "kids" instead of their gendered pronoun isn't going to throw all sense of gender identity out the window.
Kano on the Phone
Member
What does "I've only known" even mean or matter? What we "know" changes all of the time.
You'll need to elaborate on your last sentence because
makes no actual sense.
No it isn't. Gender isn't a biological construct at all.
Any more reliable and scientific sources? Either way I don't see how that's an issue given that even most intersex/transgender kids grow up as boy/girl at that age.
the world can't revolve around the off chance that a kid may realize that he/she is transgender/intersex etc. and may feel a little odd about it. has little to do with empathy.
BeatResetsTheWorld
Banned
What are instances where kids are split by gender in early education and why? Like I said earlier, I'm still struggling to think of when and why you'd say "Hey kids, line up as boys and girls" or even the "corrected" way of lining up by a mutual interest
Aeriscloud
Banned
Oh, is this like that thing where people think and feel they are a type of animal deep down inside?
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
It has everything to do with empathy, because the rest of us who easily identify as a boy or a girl are losing nothing.
I remember every school I went to lining us up first by gender and then by either height or name to go to lunch, bathroom breaks, recess, etc.
Deified Data
Banned
This is how we were told to line up when we left the classroom from pre-k to 4th grade.
LegendofLex
Member
Seems fine to me, though I'd personally go with broader standard expressions that don't seem like they'd only be effective for younger kids, like "children" or "class." While I don't think it's as problematic as singling out boys or girls for certain activities and in certain contexts, it's definitely a subtle step toward the implicit understanding that not everyone may fall neatly in either gender or sex.
googleplex
Member
There teems "Boy" and "Girl" will forever be linked with "Male" and "Female". That's never going to change and I'm not sure it's a fight worth fighting.
TheChocolateWar
Member
Simple; How do you define a class of things? By specific characteristics. I have only ever used the term gender and sex as synonyms. Any other characteristic you use to separate gender and sex aside from' Whatever I feel like saying" is rude and shows selection bias. What makes a male a male besides their sex? Liking sports? Rude. Liking red meat? Rude. Liking flannel? Rude. So what defines a man other than biological sex. And frame this without being biased and rude. And who are you to define whether I or anyone else is a male based on specific characteristics?
Zen_Arcade
Banned
When I was in elementary school they would make us line up boy/girl/boy/girl. Mostly because at that age, girls socialized with girls and boys socialized with boys, so making the line staggered prevented most kids from goofing off and slowing the line down while walking somewhere.
BeatResetsTheWorld
Banned
I'm actually wondering why they didn't just do this, now that I think about it
neogaffer1
Banned
I think it would work better if it was class specific. When I went to elementary school each second/third grade class had its own animal and color. I think I was first a purple tiger and then a white lion? Or something? Either way the teacher used that mascot name (all purple tigers follow me; all white lions go to the far end of the field, etc). I think that works better than something completely arbitrary.
Kano on the Phone
Member
That's changing even right now, so you're wrong.
Probably to take the kids for restroom breaks as done in my elementary school.
thesoapster
Member
I am genuinely curious what the transgender rate is among children, because that seems like a concept that is far too developed for a child. To me, children preferring things that are generally prescribed to the opposite gender does not mean they all of a sudden have decided for themselves to switch gender. So, I'd like to know what the criteria are, and what the research in that area says for individuals who are not even at puberty yet.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
I get the feeling it's the same situation.
BeatResetsTheWorld
Banned
So, how would that work in this system? Surely you'd have to switch to using genders in these cases, right?
Brawndo Addict
Banned
You don't know the actual scientific definitions and how they are different therefore science is wrong? The nice thing is science doesn't bow to cultural ignorance. Your overly simplistic system doesn't even account for intersex individual let alone the issue of gender.
Dude Abides
Banned
This seems a bit silly but harmless.
Like Nebraska in general.
Like Nebraska in general.
catapult37
Member
In elementary, if things got too noisy in the lunchroom or wherever, we'd have to rearrange boy-girl-boy-girl, the idea being (i suppose) that 1st grade boys and girls don't want to talk to each other, and so friends would be separated and things would quiet down. Kinda weird I guess.
Hey, I live there!
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