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Should we boycott Shadow Complex?

Version 3.0

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Jun 18, 2005
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Adam Prime said:
After reading this whole thread, this post says it all...

"He's going to use his money to deny gay people their rights".

Well, jeesh, that's not fair because I'm sure there are NO gay supporters who make lots of money from some sort of media (video games, movies, books) and use THEIR money and influence to try and push support for gay rights!

Wait...you're saying it's bad to push for people's rights? That a rich guy using his money to oppress and a rich guy using his money to liberate are the same?
 

Barrett2

Member
Dec 7, 2007
18,265
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Asmodai said:
Nah, let's start an online petition instead. That will be exponentially more effective! :lol

If not purchasing Shadow Complex is a boycott, I guess I will be doing just that, though! What do I get for being part of the boycott? A cookie?

I was never planning to buy it in the first place, but hell, they don't need to know that, right? I can just pretend I'm not buying it for a more noble reason than that I don't care about it!

Are you 12? Glenn Beck literally lost all of his sponsors last week because of mass consumer boycotts.

I don't understand the faux-maturity of pretending to be helpless consumers, or that it is somehow stupid to make political statements via purchase decisions. Organized consumer boycotts are one of the few effective political tools that consumers have.
 

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
Feb 14, 2009
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Chaos Dragon said:
>>Stuff<<


Another junior bites the dust?

In any case: I'm torn between buying Shadow Complex and not. On one hand, it is a good Metroidvania that I think anyone that is interested in that genre should try the demo of.

On the other: Orson Scott Card is involved and I don't like Orson Scott Card or his books/worldviews.

I think I'm going to pass until there is a sale of it (hah, like that'll happen given the brisk day-one sales it's gotten). Or if Epic/Chair give me a free copy (as if that'll happen).
 

Tellaerin

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Jun 10, 2004
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HamPster PamPster said:
Whats the difference between this thread and any random Activision CEO thread where half the gaffers in it vow to stop buying activision games? Or any thread where gaffers keep calling for people to "vote with their dollars"

I'm surpirsed at the overwhelming response against the OP

The difference is that this issue doesn't have any direct bearing on them getting their videogame fix. As far as some of these people are concerned, you could get away with anything as long as you're not interfering with the production of more sweet, sweet games, and anyone who would willingly choose to pass up a good game over a matter of principle must be 'crazy' and/or 'stupid'.

That clear things up for you? :/
 

Princess Skittles

Prince's's 'Skittle's
Dec 7, 2007
8,267
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EmCeeGramr said:
No, you don't understand. Some extreme conservatives literally think that the Nazis were liberal and that there's no difference.
And liberals are all calm, nurturing saints.
 

SPEA

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Sep 24, 2006
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duckroll said:
I think what is more worrying is not the influence that Card might have on anything, but what sort of company Chair Entertainment might be. Since they're based on Utah, funding them could be indirectly funding what a lot of people here are against.
Yes...everyone from Utah is somehow tied to a Anti Gay Marriage association.
 

Vinci

Danish
Oct 12, 2007
22,075
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MvmntInGrn said:
I hate this agrument. Not every ethical situation means the same to everyone.

True. Kind of odd to endorse (through purchase) child labor though, isn't it? You'd think that would rate pretty high on the 'ethical situation' scale.
 

levious

That throwing stick stunt of yours has boomeranged on us.
Jun 7, 2004
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Qtopia said:
With this said, homophobia is not something I condone. Homosexuality is not a crime. I am pro Civil Unions. If you disagree with me GREAT!


well I hope you're also in favor of guaranteeing spousal rights on a federal level, since without that civil unions are a rather large slap in the face.
 

duckroll

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Jun 7, 2004
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Y2Kev said:
There's not really any hint of his regular crazy ranting self. But why they chose him at all is weird. And by him I mean OSC.

Like I said before in the thread, the founders of Chair are on good terms with Card, and he helped them out with the script of Advent Rising previously. When they came up with this new concept of a civil war in modern day America with sci-fi overtones, they collaborated with Card to create the novel Empire, as a starting point for the series.
 

soxfanmcgee

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Jan 25, 2008
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We're part of a very cynical group called video game fans. It seems like too often an occurrence that someone starts a boycott thread, Diablo 3's art, Left 4 dead 2, Starcraft 2 not having Lan, and there is probably hundreds more. When it comes down to it, these are very trivial things that people get worked up about, so the out cry against boycotting a product which may fund a man's lobbying for a ban on some peoples rights seems absolutely absurd to me. Some of you in this very thread have probably agreed with some of these other boycotts, whether you actually go through with it or not. I haven't bought the game and to be honest I don't have all the information to make that decision, but in a place where people discuss boycotting a game because it has a rainbow in it, lets have a discussion about something that is actually socially relevant.
 
Leondexter said:
And though I'd rather not be a part of anything funding right-wing extremism or gay bashing, I find it odd to single out this game when none of us know or care where the money we spend on other games (or other entertainment in general) is going. Hell, since it was a Democrat (Leiberman) who led the big attacks on games that have been through Congress in the past, most notably the one resulted in ESRB ratings, it wouldn't surprise me to find out that videogame companies make donations to his Republican opponents.

In short, if you think you can keep your money from getting into the hands of people with views that are different from yours, you're wrong.
I'm not trying to keep my money from going to people I disagree with. As far as the potential example you raise, Will Wright frequently donates to Republican candidates. That's fine with me. I don't vote for Republican candidates but I have nothing against people who do in general. People in my family do. We just disagree on some things. I bought The Sims 3 after learning about Wright's donations.

The difference is, Wright doesn't publicly espouse bitter, hateful speech on social rights issues that are important to me, and actively pledge his intent to eradicate support for those issues. Maybe Wright is against gay marriage, I have no idea. But if he is, his opposition to it is obviously not an actual driving life goal of his, or if it is, he's not nearly as successful at making it that as Card is.

My point is that there is a difference between thinking your money should never go to someone who disagrees with you, which is impossible, and thinking your money should not go to the relatively few people who actively and publicly work to fight against things you find to be important, particularly when it's in a venomous way.
 

Adam Prime

hates soccer, is Mexican
Sep 1, 2008
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www.neogaf.com
Here's a good question, when's the last time a boycott actually worked?

... How about all those Christians who boycotted Disney a few years ago because they had a "Gay Day" at the theme parks. Gee, they really hit Disney World hard.
 

LiK

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oh please, so should we boycott every game made by Christians and Catholics? because, you know, the Vatican are homophobes too.
 

sonicmj1

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Dec 2, 2007
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I'll start this by saying that I don't agree with Card's politics in the least. That said, I don't think a boycott really sends the right message.

Given that basically none of his political views are expressed in this game (despite the slant of the universe as a whole), and given that the primary beneificiaries of the sales of this game are Epic and Chair, not Card, a boycott serves primarily to demonstrate that you hate Card because of his political views, while doing little to advance those views yourself. You're attacking the person, but not really the message.

The little irony (I hope I'm not misusing that word) here is that the whole absurd concept of the Empire books rests on the premise that the opposite sides of these political debates do hate each other because of their political views. When we act in such a manner where we attack the arguer without attacking their views, we cement that false assumption, and we entrench the very attitudes we disagree with. We prevent the possibility of reasonable debate and discovery. As a result, I think it's important that any protest of this sort is tied directly to the policies it supports, as opposed to the destruction of its opponents (for a Civil Rights Movement example, it's like boycotting the bus system because it practices discriminatory seating policies, ending the boycott when those policies are repealed. The attitudes of the drivers or employees of the bus company may not have changed, but their policies have, which is what is important).

I don't think there's anything wrong with boycotting the works of his that express things you disagree with (the Empire novels, for instance), but this game doesn't seem to be the right target. I think that the suggestion given in your OP about donating a few dollars to a gay rights organization is a very sensible alternative, and I suspect it will do much more to help the cause you believe in than boycotting Card's work would hurt it.
 

xemumanic

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Sep 1, 2004
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It s a GAME, and I really don't care what OSC has to do with it. Shadow Complex is an excellent game, and deserves all the attention and sales its getting. Its the 'It' game of the week, and for good reason.

Ironically enough, all this hub-bub you're making about it might only serve to increase sales if it became a big enough deal in the press.
 

Asmodai

Banned
Jan 22, 2009
2,468
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Shig said:
I enjoyed the game, but its atrocious writing definitely guaranteed I'll be implementing a lifelong boycott of Orson Scott Card's books.

Boycotts only count when you're avoiding something you actually want to buy otherwise.

Believe me, you do not want to buy Orson Scott Card's books. I read Ender's Game and even for a children's novel it was horrible.

bigdaddygamebot said:
I'd say it's pretty possible that there a one or two more homophobes in the gaming industry. *Gasp* There might be one working on a game you're anticipating right now! Oh noes!

Get a grip.

I'm not condoning his belief but boycotting Shadow Complex because of this? isn't there an online petition somewhere that you could be signing?

Damn you! Always beating me to my posts!

ShockingAlberto said:
It is kind of amazing how gaming attracts homophobes.

Oh yeah, did you know that all homophobes are in fact gamers? Amazing, isn't it.
 

Kuroyume

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Jun 7, 2004
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Do you all go around questioning everyone who you support with your business? The taxi man? The cook? Etc? If so then feel free to boycott this.
 
Apr 19, 2005
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ShockingAlberto said:
Yeah, pretty much.

If Glenn Beck made the best video game ever, I don't think I'd be buying it.
you know what, any game by glenn beck would probably be pretty interesting. hehe

the left behind game was pretty funny. and not too terrible, although somewhat terrible.
 
Jun 7, 2004
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Kosma said:
I hope the people not buying this also check in which countries their clothes are made and in what conditions, same for electronics etc.

I mean if you pretend to be some consumer with a consience then do it right.

Otherwise it reeks of hypocrisy.
Vinci said:
Dear lord, one has to wonder how you've managed to read books, play games, watch movies, and listen to music all your life without once enjoying something that was created by someone with political and moral perspectives contrary to yours.

You've lived a sheltered life.

See, now this is defeatist bullshit.
 

Grecco

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May 3, 2006
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duckroll said:
I think what is more worrying is not the influence that Card might have on anything, but what sort of company Chair Entertainment might be. Since they're based on Utah, funding them could be indirectly funding what a lot of people here are against.

Are we going to stop funding Utah based game companies? Eat Sleep Game is based in Utah, and judging from the large amount of twitters on the subject, David Jaffe seems very much in favor of gay rights. Should we not support him because his company is in Utah?
 

bill0527

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Jul 21, 2004
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If you look hard enough in life and go deep enough down the rabbit hole, you're probably going to find that every single product you have ever purchased was either created, manufactured, or sold by someone or some entity, who you have political, philosophical, and moral disagreements with.

The question you have to ask yourself .. is this product or service trying to push a political, philosophical, or moral view that I disagree with. If it is.. then boycott it. If not, and its a product that you want, then by all means purchase it because there are a lot of people whose very livelihoods depend on your purchase of that product or service. People who have no stake at all in whatever your beliefs are, or even what people in their own company may believe. A lot of people are just trying to earn a paycheck.

Its kind of like this Whole Foods boycott. Lets boycott the store because we have a disagreement with the CEO on health care or other political issues all while acting like we're doing it because we care about people. Yeah, well where's your compassion for those Whole Foods employees you're going to put into the unemployment line and leave stranded without - by all accounts, a pretty good company sponsered health care plan? These people are like most Americans, and are just working stiffs trying to collect a paycheck and could care less what you or anyone else's personal beliefs may be.
 

DenogginizerOS

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Mar 25, 2005
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I would like to know where Epic stands on Card's views before I decide to boycott this. But $15, only on Xbox Live, and what sounds like a game that is a Metroid clone pretty much already had me waiting for a sale at the very least.
 

joelseph

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Sep 28, 2006
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Wizman23 said:
I buy games to have fun and be entertained. You guys keep fighting the good fight and keep charging into battle with your other internet White Knights. The other 98% of the people in this thread will continue to enjoy Shadow Complex for the kick ass GAME that it is.

Yo bro, I was calling you out for your lame ass comment about "buying two to spite". You should just enjoy your game and stay the fuck out of this thread. :D
 
Jun 26, 2006
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duckroll said:
I think what is more worrying is not the influence that Card might have on anything, but what sort of company Chair Entertainment might be. Since they're based on Utah, funding them could be indirectly funding what a lot of people here are against.


I live in Utah, I am not Mormon and fully support gay marriage. I think your stereotyping an entire state is way out of whack dude.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Jun 9, 2004
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I'll start this by saying that I don't agree with Card's politics in the least. That said, I don't think a boycott really sends the right message.
That's about how I feel. Boycotting this game would certainly send a message, but it wouldn't be a message to Card...
 

Zenith

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Feb 17, 2006
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I'm a huge supporter of gay rights but that did not stop me from enjoying the guy's books. Now if they or the game contained homophobic stories then yes I'd boycott. But this right here is a no-brainer.

Isn't he the one whose books are about space hitler? only with a different name?

No. The guy undeniably wishes harm on gays (and I don't remember his views on ethnic minorities) but his stories have literally zero parallel with the Third Reich. If you read the "articles" asserting it is it's embarassing. Their main thrust was that Ender committed genocide against the buggers, Hitler committed genocide against the Jews, Ender = Hitler. Of course by this analysis Will Smith = Hitler for nuking that alien civilisation ship in Independence Day.
 

Union Carbine

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Jun 6, 2007
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The Appeal to Common Practice is a fallacy with the following structure:

X is a common action.
Therefore X is correct/moral/justified/reasonable, etc.
The basic idea behind the fallacy is that the fact that most people do X is used as "evidence" to support the action or practice. It is a fallacy because the mere fact that most people do something does not make it correct, moral, justified, or reasonable.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-common-practice.html
 

Kosma

Banned
Feb 22, 2007
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hyduK said:
There's probably more than one homophobic employee on any given development team, we should boycott gaming.

Pretty much.

There is prob one or more racist/homophobe bigot working at every game company. We should just end it now.
 

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
Feb 14, 2009
56,093
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duckroll said:
Like I said before in the thread, the founders of Chair are on good terms with Card, and he helped them out with the script of Advent Rising previously. When they came up with this new concept of a civil war in modern day America with sci-fi overtones, they collaborated with Card to create the novel Empire, as a starting point for the series.

Wait, Chair made Advent Rising?

And they aren't making AR2/3? Is AR a Majestco IP and they won't let them do it or something? I remember it being panned hard for the gameplay, and the cliffhanger ending of leading into a sequel.
 

dave is ok

aztek is ok
Aug 16, 2004
17,419
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I sense some butthurt Mormons in this thread.

The fact that Chair is based in Provo, UT isn't irrelevant. OSC is well known as a Mormon and it's possible (more than likely really) that higher ups at Chair are also Mormon.

Mormon does not equal homophobe, but many in the church are against gay marriage, and they did have much to do with Prop 8 passing.
 

Ogrekiller

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Dec 6, 2008
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ShockingAlberto said:
If that's a hot button for you, go for it.

I'm boycotting it because GTAIV is bad more than Homosexuals are in it.

But I do find that this discussion is stupid and contributes nothing to the argument.
 

Version 3.0

Member
Jun 18, 2005
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EmCeeGramr said:
No, you don't understand. Some extreme conservatives literally think that the Nazis were liberal and that there's no difference.

If you say so. That's just ignorance piled on top of extreme views, though. People with hateful opinions could at least try and get their basic facts straight.
 

APF

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Apr 13, 2005
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I don't think the point is really, someone on the project may have views I find objectionable, therefore I refuse to have my money "fund" them. I feel that's an unsustainable principle to attempt to hold yourself to. The point should be, Card was brought into the project in order to enhance its profile, raise its legitimacy, and generate interest; your political goal therefore is to project the message that the exact opposite will be the case, that his being attached to a project will harm it.
 

entremet

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Dec 6, 2008
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bill0527 said:
If you look hard enough in life and go deep enough down the rabbit hole, you're probably going to find that every single product you have ever purchased was either created, manufactured, or sold by someone or some entity, who you have political, philosophical, and moral disagreements with.

The question you have to ask yourself .. is this product or service trying to push a political, philosophical, or moral view that I disagree with. If it is.. then boycott it. If not, and its a product that you want, then by all means purchase it because there are a lot of people whose very livelihoods depend on your purchase of that product or service. People who have no stake at all in whatever your beliefs are, or even what people in their own company may believe. A lot of people are just trying to earn a paycheck.

Its kind of like this Whole Foods boycott. Lets boycott the store because we have a disagreement with the CEO on health care or other political issues all while acting like we're doing it because we care about people. Yeah, well where's your compassion for those Whole Foods employees you're going to put into the unemployment line and leave stranded without - by all accounts, a pretty good company sponsored health care plan? These people are like most Americans, and are just working stiffs trying to collect a paycheck and could care less what you or anyone else's personal beliefs may be.
Well put.
 
Mar 10, 2005
50,827
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dark10x said:
That's about how I feel. Boycotting this game would certainly send a message, but it wouldn't be a message to Card...
But it certainly would not give Card more money and it would send the message to developers that partnering with someone who actively preaches hate has a consequence.

I'm more concerned with the first part than the latter, though.
 

Acosta

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Jun 9, 2004
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It's called democracy, people vote whatever shit they want, no matter how idiotic it is.

That said, I fully approve anyone voting with their money, it's a personal right. However, make sure of how many workers in California voted for Prep 8, and make sure to boycott everything they are involved, because you are supporting their cause with your money. At the same time, try to research how many companies have contracted people who oppose to gay-marriage, so you can have a comprehensive list of everything you don't want to support with your money. Good luck.
 

Keikoku

Banned
Oct 16, 2006
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And BTW, OSC wrote awesome books too (Ender's Strategy)

It's just like what I call the "Frank Miller" or "Clint Eastwood" case. The guy has his ideas, but he made cool stuff anyway. And Shadow Complex plot is pretty much weak so it's not like we can see his views when we're playing the game...