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[Jezbollah]

Elon should just buy an oil platform. I bet those things are dirty cheap now.

I was going to post exactly that. Buy two oil platforms, convert them as landing pads - make them less affected by waves.

There wont be an issue landing on them, because landing on land has you already landing above sea level.

If the longer term vision includes reusability using Falcon Heavy, they need to land on sea platforms for the centre core of the FH - they need to nail this.

I don't think the barge is the proper way to go..

 

[Ether_Snake]

If the landing areas are generally the same place then couldn't they build a platform at sea, like an oil rig type structure?

The purpose of having a floating moveable platform is to put it anywhere, it gives you a lot more range as far as where to land it, otherwise they'd just land it on the ground.

But I think that is jumping the gun, they should focus on land landing for now, there's already a big issue to overcome there which is precision and landing softness. Sounds like enough of a challenge before going on a moving platform at sea.

If you can get extremely precise landing on ground, it opens the door to a "catch" system where the rocket would be secured as it lands when not far from the surface, to get rid of the hard landing possibility. If you get rid of the hard landing as a possibility in the design, the rocket's integrity will be even better preserved. Then you do it at sea once you nailed that, where the only difference would be making the platform negate wave movement.

 

[CyclopsRock]

If you can move it around. But I'm guessing it must be possible to make a platform that is always level with the waves.

That's one thing, the second one is I really don't think the design of the rocket's landing and stabilization makes sense. It looks extremely flimsy, like you need something to hold the rocket in place as soon as it lands, to do away with the very possibility of a "hard landing". Like something that would basically catch it, like a hand holding it when it starts hovering close to the surface rather than land.

It looks like that, but it's less flimsy than it looks. By the time it lands it's basically empty, so you have a very tall but very light tube with 9 really heavy rockets at the bottom - plus 3 large legs. It's like a bottle with just the bottom 1/4 full. I suspect what happened is that this one was coming in fine but a roll in the waves meant the barge rotated up and smacked one of the legs very hard. Just a guess, but it makes sense imo.

 

[Zaph]

Oil rigs are quite high above sea level, so they'd need a crane to get the rocket on and off, which itself could cause problems and would need a local crew to supervise and then be shuttled away.

I'm sure they're doing whatever best makes sense for where they're currently at. A permanent sea platform will probably come later.

 

[Jezbollah]

The purpose of having a floating moveable platform is to put it anywhere, it gives you a lot more range as far as where to land it, otherwise they'd just land it on the ground.

But I think that is jumping the gun, they should focus on land landing for now, there's already a big issue to overcome there which is precision and landing softness. Sounds like enough of a challenge before going on a moving platform at sea.

For a number of mission profiles, there is not enough fuel onboard to perform a land based landing. They need to nail sea landings.

Oil rig type platforms are able to be moved to whatever location is designed for a landing.

 

[Fireblend]

It looks like that, but it's less flimsy than it looks. By the time it lands it's basically empty, so you have a very tall but very light tube with 9 really heavy rockets at the bottom - plus 3 large legs. It's like a bottle with just the bottom 1/4 full. I suspect what happened is that this one was coming in fine but a roll in the waves meant the barge rotated up and smacked one of the legs very hard. Just a guess, but it makes sense imo.

That's what I imagine happened. The sea looked really rough from what we saw of the stream.

 

[Tesseract]

aren't they working on an anchor for the next launch?

 

[Trouble]

Boo, funny thing is I'm not worried about SpaceX getting the payload into orbit. I imagine landing the 1st stage back is dramatically harder since they're the 1st and only company to do it.

I worry about the primary missions, mostly because getting the payload into orbit pays the bills so they can try crazy stuff like landing the first stage. These 1st stage landing crashes are pretty inconsequential to the bottom line, but they learn a ton whether successful or not. It's a pretty genius way to do business.

 

[Ether_Snake]

It looks like that, but it's less flimsy than it looks. By the time it lands it's basically empty, so you have a very tall but very light tube with 9 really heavy rockets at the bottom - plus 3 large legs. It's like a bottle with just the bottom 1/4 full. I suspect what happened is that this one was coming in fine but a roll in the waves meant the barge rotated up and smacked one of the legs very hard. Just a guess, but it makes sense imo.

Yeah but the fact is you have multiple legs, so any inclination of the landing surface will exacerbate the impact one one leg. Instead of sharing the impact equally on three legs you put it all on one leg for a moment. That's why there shouldn't really even be any legs other than as a backup measure at best. Something should catch it.

 

[mrklaw]

Definitely like the idea of it being caught - like arrester hooks of aircraft carriers, give the incoming craft some help.

Or have a sea platform with a gimbal system so the actual landing pad can remain level even in rough seas.

 

[Fireblend]

Yeah but the fact is you have multiple legs, so any inclination of the landing surface will exacerbate the impact one one leg. Instead of sharing the impact equally on three legs you put it all on one leg for a moment. That's why there shouldn't really even be any legs other than as a backup measure at best. Something should catch it.

I think the issue with that is that if they're saying landing on the target at all is already a success, landing within some sort of mechanical arm's grasp may not be as feasible. It sounds neat though.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Yeah but the fact is you have multiple legs, so any inclination of the landing surface will exacerbate the impact one one leg. Instead of sharing the impact equally on three legs you put it all on one leg for a moment. That's why there shouldn't really even be any legs other than as a backup measure at best. Something should catch it.

ULA have an idea much like that but one of the main reasons they're testing this stuff is for Mars - even getting something as relatively light as Curiosity onto the surface of mars was a total pain-in-the-cunt - they had parachutes (which hardly work on Mars) and then this crazy rig that burned upwards to slow its descent whilst Curiosity decended on a Crane. It was absolutely insane and incredibly, but only practical for relatively light payloads. Elon wants to sent fairly large ships to Mars and this tech, when perfected, is the only way to do it. Learn to do it on Earth (with the added benefit that re-usable first stages' save money now) and they'll be able to do it on Mars. Without this, there are no humans on Mars.

 

[Ether_Snake]

For a number of mission profiles, there is not enough fuel onboard to perform a land based landing. They need to nail sea landings.

Oil rig type platforms are able to be moved to whatever location is designed for a landing.

Like others said an oil rig is too high, you'd need to be able to get the rocket on and off. The platform is pretty good as a design, except you need to negate inclination variations, which is what you would have on land.

So you do it on land to get rid of the current hard-landing design (which is really what it is) and work also on maximizing precision. If you can get that, then there's no issue with moving to a sea platform if you have worked on a design that negates inclination. Right now you have multiple problems converging: the platform's varying inclination, the precision of the landing, and the hardness of the landing. All three issues are magnified by the first one.

 

[Fireblend]

Here's my fix proposal: two robots carrying a super-sized net that align with the rocket on landing.

Here's a sketch:

 

[Oriel]

An abandoned oil rig would do.

Musk and his team of forgotten, abandoned aerospace engineers find a new home in the middle of the Caribbean that they call Mother Launch Base........sorry, I'll get my coat.

 

[Disxo]

Hope the deployment doesnt have any failure.

 

[Oriel]

Right, nearly there for the final deployment of Jason-3. Let's hope this goes as planned.

 

[Soul Beat]

dat lost signal

At least it was successful.

 

[iceblade997]

Woo! Successful payload deployment! Awesome!

Second stage re-ignition successful. Jason-3 satellite has been deployed.

https://twitter.com/SpaceX/status/688807685995667456

And it's amazing to think - an hour (almost) after launching and it's already over Madagascar. The speed these things move at is hard to fathom.

 

[Disxo]

 

[Oriel]

Jason-3 successfully deployed. Excellent news. Disappointed about the non recovery of the first stage but that's OK, lessons will be learnt here and hopefully the next time will successful.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

Hey man, they can still cash the check.

Frankly didn't expect a successful barge landing when the on-barge video showed the horizon line pitching up and down like crazy.

 

[Jezbollah]

Like others said an oil rig is too high, you'd need to be able to get the rocket on and off. The platform is pretty good as a design, except you need to negate inclination variations, which is what you would have on land.

So you do it on land to get rid of the current hard-landing design (which is really what it is) and work also on maximizing precision. If you can get that, then there's no issue with moving to a sea platform if you have worked on a design that negates inclination. Right now you have multiple problems converging: the platform's varying inclination, the precision of the landing, and the hardness of the landing. All three issues are magnified by the first one.

edit: Brb, making a drawing of the system

My first thoughts are that a rig platform would be able to host lifting equipment that could pick up and lower the first stage onto a transportation ship, as well as the usual water suppression equipment.

One thing's for sure - it'll be a nice discussion point going forwards. The cost investment into a solution will be minimal compared to the cost of manufacturing F9 1st stages that are lost until that solution is found..

 

[mrklaw]

Mount the landing platform on a hydraulic motion platform. Then you can compensate for the motion of the waves to keep it level.

Also you could sync up the motion with the incoming rocket, to compensate for any odd angles as it comes in; and cushion the landing by lowering the platform as it hits

 

[Ether_Snake]

My first thoughts are that a rig platform would be able to host lifting equipment that could pick up and lower the first stage onto a transportation ship, as well as the usual water suppression equipment.

One thing's for sure - it'll be a nice discussion point going forwards. The cost investment into a solution will be minimal compared to the cost of manufacturing F9 1st stages that are lost until that solution is found..

Yeah curious to see how they'll go. I tried to draw something but it gets pretty complex because right now they have the simplest thing; just land somewhere on a platform. As soon as you add structures to catch the rocket, those structures have to be ideally not present when it lands to avoid collisions, or landing has to be even more precise to land in the structure (and possibly even aligned to the catching system), which is unlikely without using more fuel or a more advanced control system.

Maybe they can just land the rocket in a vat of honey!

 

[Jezbollah]

 

[Kud Dukan]

Interesting details from Musk on Twitter:

Elon Musk ‏@elonmusk 3m3 minutes ago
However, that was not what prevented it being good. Touchdown speed was ok, but a leg lockout didn't latch, so it tipped over after landing.

Elon Musk ‏@elonmusk 11m11 minutes ago
Definitely harder to land on a ship. Similar to an aircraft carrier vs land: much smaller target area, that's also translating & rotating.

He also mentioned afterwards that give what happened to the leg, it's likely the same thing would have happened if they had tried bringing it back down on land again.

Sounds like it was very close!

 

[Jezbollah]

Interesting details from Musk on Twitter:



He also mentioned afterwards that give what happened to the leg, it's likely the same thing would have happened if they had tried bringing it back down on land again.

Sounds like it was very close!

indeed! An unlocked leg latch, although infuriating, would be much easier to sort out for the SES mission. So near yet so far!

 

[Particulam]

Some more info from SpaceX:


SpaceX ‏@SpaceX 4 min
After further data review, stage landed softly but leg 3 didn't lockout. Was within 1.3 meters of droneship center

 

[Tempy]

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/688837706005131264/photo/1

@elonmusk
Well, at least the pieces were bigger this time! Won't be last RUD, but am optimistic about upcoming ship landing.

 

[Anno]

I like that Elon sometimes just casually uses Kerbal terminology when describing these things. Shame that leg didn't lock, but also super impressive that it mostly worked otherwise.

 

[Oriel]

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/688837706005131264/photo/1

"Well, at least the pieces were bigger this time! "

Lol, love this line.

 

[Jezbollah]

Knowing the minds behind SpaceX, there's probably a ton of things they can still analyze in those remains!

 

[GSG Flash]

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/688837706005131264/photo/1

That actually doesn't look too bad. Seems like there's a good chance they could've had a successful landing if that one leg didn't fail.

 

[cebri.one]

Also from musk. It's all about speed.

As mentioned before, ship landings are needed for high velocity missions. Altitude & distance don't mean much for orbit. All about speed.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/688842435955261440

Ship landings are not needed for flexibility or to save fuel costs. Just not physically possible to return to launch site

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/688844190826942465

 

[Mindlog]

Well, at least the pieces were bigger this time!

That's simply the best. #Progress

 

[Deleted member 80556]

They are bigger lol. I love their optimism, the average people will call this a failure, but the engineers know they have huge improvement capacity.

Oh, interesting to know about the speed thing.

 

[KHarvey16]

Video of touchdown:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BAqirNbwEc0/

Better than I expected given the result!

 

[jett]

Video of touchdown:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BAqirNbwEc0/

Better than I expected given the result!

Holy shit that explosion.

Must be depressing to see something like that. So close.

 

[Calidor]

Video of touchdown:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BAqirNbwEc0/

Better than I expected given the result!

I need this in reverse

 

[Aruarian Reflection]

Falcon lands on droneship, but the lockout collet doesn't latch on one the four legs, causing it to tip over post landing. Root cause may have been ice buildup due to condensation from heavy fog at liftoff.

Astounding how close they were to sticking that landing

 

[bengraven]

When i see this thread title it makes me think of

 

[Nelo Ice]

Video of touchdown:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BAqirNbwEc0/

Better than I expected given the result!

Damn they freaking had it. The fact that they had the landing down aside from the leg buckling is incredible.

 

[Dryk]

They are bigger lol. I love their optimism, the average people will call this a failure, but the engineers know they have huge improvement capacity

A latch failing seems pretty low on the list of things that can go wrong on a rocket landing. Should be easy enough to iron out.

 

[Trouble]

Video of touchdown:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BAqirNbwEc0/

Better than I expected given the result!

Goddamn. That explosion.

Perfect landing if the leg hadn't buckled, though. They'll be doing this routinely soon.

 

[dorn.]

So can we stop talking about oil rigs and catching mechanisms now? If they can get this good of a result under these circumstances, with the only thing keeping it form being a successful landing being a mechanical failure of one of the landing legs (aren't the legs of v1.2 already improved in that regard anyway?), I see no problem getting consistent results in the future. This is absolutely amazing, too bad the barge had to take another beating tho.

 

[Jezbollah]

So can we stop talking about oil rigs and catching mechanisms now? If they can get this good of a result under these circumstances, with the only thing keeping it form being a successful landing being a mechanical failure of one of the landing legs (aren't the legs of v1.2 already improved in that regard anyway?), I see no problem getting consistent results in the future. This is absolutely amazing, too bad the barge had to take another beating tho.

Yeah, I feel a lot better about the logistics of the barge after watching that video. I do wonder how that stage remains upright in the time of the landing and before the crew arrive with the crane if the waves become choppy.. but yeah.. It's a successful landing on the barge if that leg had locked..

 

[dorn.]

Yeah, I feel a lot better about the logistics of the barge after watching that video. I do wonder how that stage remains upright in the time of the landing and before the crew arrive with the crane if the waves become choppy.. but yeah.. It's a successful landing on the barge if that leg had locked..

Once it sets down its centre of mass is so low I don't think it will be toppled by anything during the couple of hours it takes to weld steel shoes over the legs. Just look at how it falls over in the video, you can see how bottom heavy it is.

 

[DBT85]

Video of touchdown:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BAqirNbwEc0/

Better than I expected given the result!

The sumbitch actually landed perfectly on the X.

A perfect landing if it wasn't for a leg not latching. Damn.

 

[Rosur]

Damn they freaking had it. The fact that they had the landing down aside from the leg buckling is incredible.

Yea its a shame they didn't this time but they hit the target well and will probably prevent this issue next time.

Any idea when their next launch/ ship landing attempt is?